John Sheppard Discussion/Appreciation

[Southern Red]

Oh dear, how depressing. Yet another thread devolves into squabbling and name calling. This was one of my favourite threads too. How sad.
This thread is the Sheppard Appreciation and Discussion thread, so can we just stick to that, PLEASE. This is not a thread to discuss or defend any other characters other than Sheppard. If anyone doubts that please look at the thread title.
For once I'd like to be able to visit a thread I like without seeing animosity, especially from people who rarely or never post here.
Perhaps now we can have some discussion about Sheppard.
I didn't think Michael was a good episode particularly for Sheppard.
I don't think it was a good episode for any Atlantis characters really. The whole 'experiment' was a disaster which ultimately leaves the whole expedition in potential danger. Thus I don't believe anyone comes out of it well, and that includes Sheppard to a certain extent, though he seemed pretty reluctant to agree with some of the decisions, not all of them though.

Spoiler:

Is Sheppard Weir's lapdog here? No, not in my opinion. He must have agreed to the experiment on Michael. For example, he tried to get Teyla's approval for this experiment, and why would he do that if he didn't agree with the experiment in the first place? He must have believed it was the right thing to try or he wouldn't care if Teyla aproved or not.
Did he agree with Michael being released? No. He got overruled. Sheppard has taken orders from Weir since season 1, with only the odd disagreement.He accpets her orders here too, but has reservations.
So he hasn't behaved out of character as far as I can see.
However the whole Michael experiment was foolish and morally dubious, IMO. Thus it was doomed to failure making all of them look pretty foolish and the bottom line is that the leader takes responsibilty for that, like in any area of the workplace. That is Weir in this case, and as I'm sure she accepts. I don't think Sheppard could stop this even if he wanted to, and I don't see that he does. It's desperate times calling for desperate, if disastrous measures. I think they will all have learned a valuable lesson by the beginning of season 3

You're probably referring to me in that first part, right? I thought everyone who loves the character of Sheppard would be welcome here. Am I wrong?

My motivation was that some people over here have been doing a lot of criticising and little appreciating. Go back and read my posts and tell me how I don't talk about Sheppard. In defending Weir I was defending Shep because he has been made to sound like he just bends to her will without thinking for himself. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd love to be able to help make this thread into something special. Everytime I've been here it's been on page 2 or 3 without many people posting.

I mostly agree with your assessment of Michael, especially the desperate measures part.

Spoiler:

However I don't entirely agree that they did the wrong thing. In times of war you'll do things you thought were impossible to comprehend. John even says he would do anything to protect his people and save Earth. I see that as a good thing.

This character has been unjustly maligned this season in a lot of ways, but the writers have led him in some very negative directions. My first rant that started all this was in response to one poster who sees the show in a totally different way than I do. We are not at cross purposes. Shep is my favorite character, and I'd like to see him return to the noble warrior he was until recently.

[vaberella]

Oh dear, how depressing. Yet another thread devolves into squabbling and name calling. This was one of my favourite threads too. How sad.
This thread is the Sheppard Appreciation and Discussion thread, so can we just stick to that, PLEASE. This is not a thread to discuss or defend any other characters other than Sheppard. If anyone doubts that please look at the thread title.
For once I'd like to be able to visit a thread I like without seeing animosity, especially from people who rarely or never post here.
Perhaps now we can have some discussion about Sheppard.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. As for name-calling, where? Tried to do that in my initial post on 'Michael' and Shep's role, but it got out of hand.

I didn't think Michael was a good episode particularly for Sheppard.
I don't think it was a good episode for any Atlantis characters really. The whole 'experiment' was a disaster which ultimately leaves the whole expedition in potential danger. Thus I don't believe anyone comes out of it well, and that includes Sheppard to a certain extent, though he seemed pretty reluctant to agree with some of the decisions, not all of them though.

I agree with you on this point as well, not fully but majority. This is very true and I have to say this is what I saw coming from him, the reluctantcy (good choice of words). But over all the characters were a bit off--not all mind you but a good deal.

I just like the fact we got to pick up on this reluctancy, I mean come on, how exciting is it to see Shep out of his element. I'm not looking for a hero, I'd love a knight with a tarnished armor....and I really liked the fact that JF was able to portray that in JS. That we see a man who overall is a great guy, and will do what he must when he must. But what we also see is someone who also recognizes he's out of his element and unsure about what to do. Further more...I actually respected his mistakes, don't get me wrong they were pretty bad...but at the same time they were understandable in his side.

Let's look at this. If we go back to Coup we know that Shep said before that

Spoiler:

Beckett is the best doctor in two galaxies. In the Tower, we call Beckett; in Conversion, Beckett cured him. So we know we he puts a high level of respect in what Beckett can do, and by doing so he obviously OVERESTIMATED Beckett's skill and he most definitely underestimated Michael. And I really liked this. He was in an unsure position and had the place littered with military and nothing could stop Michael. I mean let's think on it...Look what happened that got that first military killed, there were about 2 of them---plus Ronon and they got messed up. On him was always 2-4 guards, and then we had 2 guards guarding the gate---and in most instances Teyla could handle Michael..and he put those strap things....but that was underestimation. I mean yes we see teyla able to handle herself with 'Michael' alone quite well...but then 'Michael' hadn't been injected with the human serum for a while...so he was already turning. Which says further more underestimation and a level of conceit on John's part. And the fact that he has forgotten what Teyla and Ronon have said continously----'Once a Wraith, always a Wraith'.

Was he wrong in that? Sure he was...but he was also again out of his element and he has never been one to say he knows what to do at that perfect moment or at the perfect time. And it was interesting to see that. Further more I liked the fact of baby steps with Shep.....it's a slow progression we see of uncertainty as they face more and more difficult situations, he does his duty and he does it to the best of his ability---but he also is very humanistic.

Spoiler:

Is Sheppard Weir's lapdog here? No, not in my opinion. He must have agreed to the experiment on Michael. For example, he tried to get Teyla's approval for this experiment, and why would he do that if he didn't agree with the experiment in the first place? He must have believed it was the right thing to try or he wouldn't care if Teyla aproved or not.

Spoiler:

Okay who's talking about John being Weir's lapdog....I'm seeing these words being used....lapdog and manipulation. I thought it was clear that he was doing his duty despite as you had already mentioned his own 'reluctantcy'. So in what way was he a lapdog or even manipulated? He went in this clear headed and with two feet forward, not dragged!

We saw this 'Suspicion' we saw this in 'Coup' we've seen this in many many many eps in various degrees. He's uncertain and I've said that before, but that's normal.

Okay when you mention Teyla...your speaking of Allies? And again need I have to recommend you spend the time to watch 'Suspicion'....he was against this idea that Teyla was a threat and her people and hated that they had to be questioned. But in the end he went and spoke to Teyla and showed her that this was for the best. I mean 'Suspicion' is really the best example of this action having already been done before.

Further more, my focus was never on the agreement of the experiment. Nor was that ever under debate for myself; although it could be for others... (if I had to be in this positoin---I probably would do the experiment hands down, no question---no matter the moral or evolutionary issues or my arrogance).

The debate has always been, primarily, for me---to bring this enemy to Atlantis, rather than an off-site planet (and my only debate really in regards of this issue and John's stance on it; but if you sit there and analyze it's pretty understandable, although extremely detrimental (and massive mistake)).

Spoiler:

Did he agree with Michael being released? No. He got overruled. Sheppard has taken orders from Weir since season 1, with only the odd disagreement.He accpets her orders here too, but has reservations.
So he hasn't behaved out of character as far as I can see.

Spoiler:

Yeah I said that as well, and yes I did say he got overrruled. I never said he was out of character, but I did say he's not verbally argumentative in front of other's like in season 1. Season 1 we see John as being publicly argumentative---now he's definitely reigned himself in on that count. Is that growth? Possibly..is that out of character? From Season 1-he's change, guess he might be out of character, but that's really debatable. And hey, I'm all about change.

Spoiler:

However the whole Michael experiment was foolish and morally dubious, IMO. Thus it was doomed to failure making all of them look pretty foolish and the bottom line is that the leader takes responsibilty for that, like in any area of the workplace. That is Weir in this case, and as I'm sure she accepts. I don't think Sheppard could stop this even if he wanted to, and I don't see that he does. It's desperate times calling for desperate, if disastrous measures. I think they will all have learned a valuable lesson by the beginning of season 3

For sure and most definitely.

Spoiler:

As for morally dubious....heh, as I said I would do it, but I'm thinking of myself in war times and doing what I have to do to destroy the enemy. It could be awful...but then hmmm....but that's if it works. If it works and they become human (no problems for me)...but if I'm doing it so some can have a smorgasborg buffet over others; now I will have major problems, which is another issue; I'll wait for Allies to vent on that. I do it to all or none!

[Luz]

For once I'd like to be able to visit a thread I like without seeing animosity, especially from people who rarely or never post here.

LMAO, sorry this just cracked me up, it's just that the people who more frecuently post here rarely post here .

[Linzi]

You're probably referring to me in that first part, right? I thought everyone who loves the character of Sheppard would be welcome here. Am I wrong?

My motivation was that some people over here have been doing a lot of criticising and little appreciating. Go back and read my posts and tell me how I don't talk about Sheppard. In defending Weir I was defending Shep because he has been made to sound like he just bends to her will without thinking for himself. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd love to be able to help make this thread into something special. Everytime I've been here it's been on page 2 or 3 without many people posting.

I mostly agree with your assessment of Michael, especially the desperate measures part.

Spoiler:

However I don't entirely agree that they did the wrong thing. In times of war you'll do things you thought were impossible to comprehend. John even says he would do anything to protect his people and save Earth. I see that as a good thing.

This character has been unjustly maligned this season in a lot of ways, but the writers have led him in some very negative directions. My first rant that started all this was in response to one poster who sees the show in a totally different way than I do. We are not at cross purposes. Shep is my favorite character, and I'd like to see him return to the noble warrior he was until recently.

It's not up to me to decide who posts here or not, as long as what they say is on topic and not some part of a hidden agenda, that is to say, to further the global domination of their favourite ship or character, Lol!! I do object to posters calling to other posters to come on over to the Sheppard Discussion thread to defend Weir, I can show you the post on another thread where this was said if you don't remember seeing it. That sort of behaviour defeats the whole purpose of discussion about Sheppard, which I find not only inappropriate but quite honestly bizarre.It also invariably causes the thread to be hi-jacked by another topic!
Surely though, these are fictional characters, right? They don't need to be defended for every negative thing somebody sees in them, and yes posters are allowed to have negative feelings towards characters! That includes Weir and Sheppard. People making negative personal comments about the actors is totally another matter, IMO.
However, I do see the point you were making and I agree too much negativity toward ANY character by the same poster(s) going around the forum is annoying! Perhaps some of those defending Weir can understand how those defending Sheppard have felt in the past now?

I still see the whole Michael situation as being a foolhardy plan that was doomed to failure. The buck stops at Weir, as leader, IMO, but I believe other than Ronon everybody else was happy to give the plan a try.

[Cpt. Ritter]

I still see the whole Michael situation as being a foolhardy plan that was doomed to failure. The buck stops at Weir, as leader, IMO, but I believe other than Ronon everybody else was happy to give the plan a try.

First sentence, total agreement. Second sentence. I'd say that they weren't happy to give the plan a try, but they probably saw some benefit to it. They needed a test subject and they needed a wraith. Probably could've been done better, but you know, TPTB wanted some drama out of it, and they got it.

Spoiler:

Not sure where Michael shoved those CDs though

[knocknashee]

It's not up to me to decide who posts here or not, as long as what they say is on topic and not some part of a hidden agenda, that is to say, to further the global domination of their favourite ship or character, Lol!! I do object to posters calling to other posters to come on over to the Sheppard Discussion thread to defend Weir, I can show you the post on another thread where this was said if you don't remember seeing it. That sort of behaviour defeats the whole purpose of discussion about Sheppard, which I find not only inappropriate but quite honestly bizarre.It also invariably causes the thread to be hi-jacked by another topic!
Surely though, these are fictional characters, right? They don't need to be defended for every negative thing somebody sees in them, and yes posters are allowed to have negative feelings towards characters! That includes Weir and Sheppard. People making negative personal comments about the actors is totally another matter, IMO.
However, I do see the point you were making and I agree too much negativity toward ANY character by the same poster(s) going around the forum is annoying! Perhaps some of those defending Weir can understand how those defending Sheppard have felt in the past now?

I still see the whole Michael situation as being a foolhardy plan that was doomed to failure. The buck stops at Weir, as leader, IMO, but I believe other than Ronon everybody else was happy to give the plan a try.

*Nods in agreement* Well said Linzi *Will probably get whipped for agreeing, but hey...*

I think it's about time there were some more dissenting opinions on things in SGA. Sheppard has become a little too agreeable for my liking in S2, and the Caldwell / Weir / Sheppard triange has so much promise for antagonism, which has sadly not really been tapped in the way it was spoken of.

Michael was perhaps one of the dumbest episodes ever, along with the inevitable fallout in Allies. I think it was a stupid idea and that every bit of blame should fall on Weir for letting them do that stuff in the first place. As the leader of the expedition she should be making better choices than that to protect both Atlantis and Earth. It was foolhardy - you could sniff out at a 100 paces that this would bite them on the ass...

[Linzi]

*Nods in agreement* Well said Linzi *Will probably get whipped for agreeing, but hey...*

I think it's about time there were some more dissenting opinions on things in SGA. Sheppard has become a little too agreeable for my liking in S2, and the Caldwell / Weir / Sheppard triange has so much promise for antagonism, which has sadly not really been tapped in the way it was spoken of.

Michael was perhaps one of the dumbest episodes ever, along with the inevitable fallout in Allies. I think it was a stupid idea and that every bit of blame should fall on Weir for letting them do that stuff in the first place. As the leader of the expedition she should be making better choices than that to protect both Atlantis and Earth. It was foolhardy - you could sniff out at a 100 paces that this would bite them on the ass...

Agreed. Silly plan, with dreadful consequences for the expedition and Michael.
I enjoyed the conflict between the characters too. Too much agreeing is dull t.v. IMO, and not like real life either, just look at the conflict here....lol!

[Luz]

Agreed. Silly plan, with dreadful consequences for the expedition and Michael.
I enjoyed the conflict between the characters too. Too much agreeing is dull t.v. IMO, and not like real life either, just look at the conflict here....lol!

We are talking about Michael still, right?.
I thought the plan was great, do i have to put spoiler space?. Just in case

Spoiler:

It wasn't going to work obviously, imagine what it would've been like trying to turn all those wraith into human. Still it was worth a try, if you have the chance to make some incredibly strong enemy into something weaker and easier to kill (i'm with Ronon here, they should've killed him as soon as they saw the plan wasn't working), then by all means do it.
Desperate times call for desperate measures, in all truth i didn't see Sheppard act all that hesitant, actually to me he didn't seem hesitant about the plan, more like about the consecuenses but only later on (when it became apparent that it all had gone to the s***), but i think he agreed to the plan initially on some imaginary meeting they all (McKay, Ronon, Teyla, Beckett, Sheppard, and Weir) had in my mind, lol. And why not, it was a good idea (IMO), if they'd only killed Michael. Completely useless if what you plan is to make buddies with the wraith.
On a side note i'm still, hoping we get a flash back, to show us how it (that meeting) went, who pitched the idea, i have to see the episode again, 'cause in my mind it was Beckett, but i don't remember if it's cannon, or fanon (happens to me a lot, argh!). I know he said he pushed for it, but was it his idea?.
I don't have any moral doubts about it, it's not like it was some poor defenseless creature, i'm sure before they captured him Michael (as hot as he was as a human) tried to kill them most probably with thoughts of some tasty Ronon/Teyla/Sheppard sandwitch on its mind .
All in all i liked the episode, i liked how creepy the good guys looked, i know the intention was probably for us to side with michael, but i was all for them torturing him, experimenting, killing him, or doing whatever they needed to do with him. He wasn't your run of the mill prisoner of war, you can't negotiate with the wraith. The only method with them is finding a way to finish them all, and i'm all for turning them into human so that they become easier to kill. This is my only qualm about the whole bunch of them on this episode, they should have killed him, what were they experimenting with turning wraiths into humans, to make friends with them and live happily ever after?.
As for Sheppard's hand being forced, in my head i can't see Sheppard going along with something if he didn't think it was worth giving it a try. And i can't imagine Weir forcing some plan on him. I just can't, he's the 2IC, not some private, or cadet (or whatever they have in the army), he's John Sheppard, he's been involved in the decision making of Atlantis since day one. And i didn't see any hints that that choice of turning Mikey into a hunky human was made without his (Sheppard's) consent.

I thought it was a pretty nifty episode, this is just my opinion. I'm not so good with this analising stuff, i'm better with the "OMFG, he looked so hot with that black t-shirt", and "you could see his arms" *faints* stuff, lol.

[Elinor]

I'm not so good with this analising stuff, i'm better with the "OMFG, he looked so hot with that black t-shirt", and "you could see his arms" *faints* stuff, lol.

LOL...I'm so glad there's someone else like me! I'm absolutely useless at analysing and loads of stuff goes right over my head. Hardly ever see plot holes either!! I think Shep/Joe is FAR too distracting!!

I get to see Michael tonight...and I'll probably just be thinking 'Oooh...it's Trip...and doesn't he and Shep look yummy stood together'!! Er...they do get to stand together don't they...'cos I'd rather like to see that scene on my TV?!!!

[Linzi]

LOL...I'm so glad there's someone else like me! I'm absolutely useless at analysing and loads of stuff goes right over my head. Hardly ever see plot holes either!! I think Shep/Joe is FAR too distracting!!

I get to see Michael tonight...and I'll probably just be thinking 'Oooh...it's Trip...and doesn't he and Shep look yummy stood together'!! Er...they do get to stand together don't they...'cos I'd rather like to see that scene on my TV?!!!

Not really Eli, that was a disappintment to me! The two were not on screen together that much. Damn TPTB, a gratuitous thunking opportunity was missed!

[Linzi]

We are talking about Michael still, right?.
I thought the plan was great, do i have to put spoiler space?. Just in case

Spoiler:

It wasn't going to work obviously, imagine what it would've been like trying to turn all those wraith into human. Still it was worth a try, if you have the chance to make some incredibly strong enemy into something weaker and easier to kill (i'm with Ronon here, they should've killed him as soon as they saw the plan wasn't working), then by all means do it.
Desperate times call for desperate measures, in all truth i didn't see Sheppard act all that hesitant, actually to me he didn't seem hesitant about the plan, more like about the consecuenses but only later on (when it became apparent that it all had gone to the s***), but i think he agreed to the plan initially on some imaginary meeting they all (McKay, Ronon, Teyla, Beckett, Sheppard, and Weir) had in my mind, lol. And why not, it was a good idea (IMO), if they'd only killed Michael. Completely useless if what you plan is to make buddies with the wraith.
On a side note i'm still, hoping we get a flash back, to show us how it (that meeting) went, who pitched the idea, i have to see the episode again, 'cause in my mind it was Beckett, but i don't remember if it's cannon, or fanon (happens to me a lot, argh!). I know he said he pushed for it, but was it his idea?.
I don't have any moral doubts about it, it's not like it was some poor defenseless creature, i'm sure before they captured him Michael (as hot as he was as a human) tried to kill them most probably with thoughts of some tasty Ronon/Teyla/Sheppard sandwitch on its mind .
All in all i liked the episode, i liked how creepy the good guys looked, i know the intention was probably for us to side with michael, but i was all for them torturing him, experimenting, killing him, or doing whatever they needed to do with him. He wasn't your run of the mill prisoner of war, you can't negotiate with the wraith. The only method with them is finding a way to finish them all, and i'm all for turning them into human so that they become easier to kill. This is my only qualm about the whole bunch of them on this episode, they should have killed him, what were they experimenting with turning wraiths into humans, to make friends with them and live happily ever after?.
As for Sheppard's hand being forced, in my head i can't see Sheppard going along with something if he didn't think it was worth giving it a try. And i can't imagine Weir forcing some plan on him. I just can't, he's the 2IC, not some private, or cadet (or whatever they have in the army), he's John Sheppard, he's been involved in the decision making of Atlantis since day one. And i didn't see any hints that that choice of turning Mikey into a hunky human was made without his (Sheppard's) consent.

I thought it was a pretty nifty episode, this is just my opinion. I'm not so good with this analising stuff, i'm better with the "OMFG, he looked so hot with that black t-shirt", and "you could see his arms" *faints* stuff, lol.

I agree with much of what you say, but don't agree on the moral issues.

Spoiler:

I too believe Sheppard wilingly went ahead with the initial plan to try the retro-virus on Michael. I also believe he thinks it's a good idea to 'turn' Wraith into humans. I think he thought it would stand a chance of getting rid the Wraith for good. I think he is partly to blame for not insisting the experiment went ahead on another planet, but he may have been overruled on that, as Beckett perhaps would be needed on Atlantis and it was the only safe place for everyone to be.
I do think he should have insisted Michael wasn't allowed to roam around Atlantis though. I know he was overruled by Weir, but he should've fought more, IMO. This is what I mean by there should have been more conflict between Sheppard and Weir. Recently, and here is an example, they have agreed too much, and in the process some of the drama has been taken away from their relationship. Same with Caldwell. I don't want lots of fighting, I like that Sheppard respects and follows Weir's orders, but I also enjoyed the conflict seen in Rising and Hot Zone. It made for great drama, and gave insights into both of the characters, IMO.
I do think Michael was a morally dubioius episode though. To turn Wraith into human's is a little arrogant. 'Be like us and you won't be a threat to us and you'll be better off'. Why don't the Wraith deserve to exist as they are? Why don't us Earthlings just go back home and stop interfering in another Galaxy? Well, we can't obviously as there'd be no more SGA, and we need to help those humans already struggling to survive in the Pegasus Galaxy, as well as learning more about the Ancients. But something doesn't sit right with me about this plan. Michael seemed more human than any of the team at some points in the episode to me.

[Southern Red]

I agree with much of what you say, but don't agree on the moral issues.

Spoiler:

I too believe Sheppard wilingly went ahead with the initial plan to try the retro-virus on Michael. I also believe he thinks it's a good idea to 'turn' Wraith into humans. I think he thought it would stand a chance of getting rid the Wraith for good. I think he is partly to blame for not insisting the experiment went ahead on another planet, but he may have been overruled on that, as Beckett perhaps would be needed on Atlantis and it was the only safe place for everyone to be.
I do think he should have insisted Michael wasn't allowed to roam around Atlantis though. I know he was overruled by Weir, but he should've fought more, IMO. This is what I mean by there should have been more conflict between Sheppard and Weir. Recently, and here is an example, they have agreed too much, and in the process some of the drama has been taken away from their relationship. Same with Caldwell. I don't want lots of fighting, I like that Sheppard respects and follows Weir's orders, but I also enjoyed the conflict seen in Rising and Hot Zone. It made for great drama, and gave insights into both of the characters, IMO.
I do think Michael was a morally dubioius episode though. To turn Wraith into human's is a little arrogant. 'Be like us and you won't be a threat to us and you'll be better off'. Why don't the Wraith deserve to exist as they are? Why don't us Earthlings just go back home and stop interfering in another Galaxy? Well, we can't obviously as there'd be no more SGA, and we need to help those humans already struggling to survive in the Pegasus Galaxy, as well as learning more about the Ancients. But something doesn't sit right with me about this plan. Michael seemed more human than any of the team at some points in the episode to me.

This has turned into a great discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in. I agree with the loss of conflict idea. When Caldwell first came along it looked like we'd see some interesting back and forth among the 3 "leaders". But it has dwindled away. I really don't want to see him getting along so well with either Sheppard or Weir. Sheppard, of course, being military has to at least say "yes sir" and keep his mouth shut, but early on he didn't mind at least expressing an opinion. In Trinity they agreed because of the possibility

Spoiler:

of obtaining a weapon. Which is logical. But in Conversion after Caldwell basically undid some of Shep's scheduling of teams and what not, I would like to have seen some sort of discussion between the two of them.

I enjoyed the little blowups between Shep and Weir in S1 and would also like to see them not so totally in agreement. It looks like the writers have changed her so that she doesn't really object so much to some of his ideas, and he has become used to letting her make the decisions without argument. I know they can't argue all the time, but you're right no conflict means no drama.

I would imagine at this point that poor Sheppard is getting a little tired. He's been on several suicide missions, saved everybody countless times, gotten shot at by hordes of aliens, had to deal with Rodney and oversee the military side of the city. The guy must be exhausted. He's just waiting for the other shoe to drop most of the time and maybe waiting to pick his battles. I remember reading somewhere that JF talked about how his character was supposed to be the "fish out of water" sort of guy. Largely ignorant of the whole SGC world, facing things he didn't even know existed before he came on this mission, in a position he never expected to be in from a leadership standpoint and trying to stay alive. A lot to deal with on a constant basis for now years at a time.

I also think that the writers may have hit a "sophomore slump" with John in S2. They weren't quite sure where to go Lord knows why and floundered quite a bit. They tried to show his imperfection with the Kirk idea, and no matter what you think of it you have to admit at least where a lot of fans are concerned, it has backfired.

John started out as the reluctant hero. He stole our hearts in Rising when he stopped at nothing to save everybody, and broke our hearts when he had to shoot Sumner. Then he went on to prove he was a true JohnWayne/GaryCooper/everyactionheroeverborn time and time again. Now in S2 he's content to let Ronon kick shins and take names. I hope in S3 they piss the man off again and give him back his big gun.

[Linzi]

This has turned into a great discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in. I agree with the loss of conflict idea. When Caldwell first came along it looked like we'd see some interesting back and forth among the 3 "leaders". But it has dwindled away. I really don't want to see him getting along so well with either Sheppard or Weir. Sheppard, of course, being military has to at least say "yes sir" and keep his mouth shut, but early on he didn't mind at least expressing an opinion. In Trinity they agreed because of the possibility

Spoiler:

of obtaining a weapon. Which is logical. But in Conversion after Caldwell basically undid some of Shep's scheduling of teams and what not, I would like to have seen some sort of discussion between the two of them.

I enjoyed the little blowups between Shep and Weir in S1 and would also like to see them not so totally in agreement. It looks like the writers have changed her so that she doesn't really object so much to some of his ideas, and he has become used to letting her make the decisions without argument. I know they can't argue all the time, but you're right no conflict means no drama.

I would imagine at this point that poor Sheppard is getting a little tired. He's been on several suicide missions, saved everybody countless times, gotten shot at by hordes of aliens, had to deal with Rodney and oversee the military side of the city. The guy must be exhausted. He's just waiting for the other shoe to drop most of the time and maybe waiting to pick his battles. I remember reading somewhere that JF talked about how his character was supposed to be the "fish out of water" sort of guy. Largely ignorant of the whole SGC world, facing things he didn't even know existed before he came on this mission, in a position he never expected to be in from a leadership standpoint and trying to stay alive. A lot to deal with on a constant basis for now years at a time.

I also think that the writers may have hit a "sophomore slump" with John in S2. They weren't quite sure where to go Lord knows why and floundered quite a bit. They tried to show his imperfection with the Kirk idea, and no matter what you think of it you have to admit at least where a lot of fans are concerned, it has backfired.

John started out as the reluctant hero. He stole our hearts in Rising when he stopped at nothing to save everybody, and broke our hearts when he had to shoot Sumner. Then he went on to prove he was a true JohnWayne/GaryCooper/everyactionheroeverborn time and time again. Now in S2 he's content to let Ronon kick shins and take names. I hope in S3 they piss the man off again and give him back his big gun.

I have to agree with much of what you say here.
I like the conflict between Caldwell and Sheppard, and Caldwell and Weir. The little blowups between Sheppard and Weir in Season 1 were terrific, IMO and I'd like to see the odd one still. That they're great friends and allies is terrific, but even friends argue, and especially with the burden of command being thrown into the equation, as well as different strengths, weaknesses and expertise. To agree too much isn't good drama anyway, as we've already agreed.
Whether one agrees with Shep's actions in Hot Zone, or not,it was great to watch, and I learned so much about him from the actions he took there.
I still don't see Sheppard as Kirk, more as a kid in the candy store, who's eyes light up when he sees a big lollipop. I don't mind that VERY seldomly, but there are so many better vulnerabilities Sheppard could have had,IMO.
I like Shep when he's pissed off. We get to see another side of him then, as in The Eye and Siege I. I'd love to see more of that in Season 3. I maintain that the loss of tension in Season 2, as

Spoiler:

the team are no longer cut off from Earth and are not fighting for their survival as they were in season 1

overall has not helped the characterisation of Shep very much. Well, that and the poor writing.
I think we all agree Shep is so much more than a 'babe magnet', (big groan!)
I too loved heroic, action Shep, and would like to see more of that again. You could be right that Shep having Chewie has taken that away from him. I'd never have thought of it like that, but can see what you mean now you've pointed it out.
So fingers crossed for Shep with his big gun, feeling very pissed off in Season 3! I'd also like to see an episode with the same feel as The Defiant One. I just loved seeing soldier Shep, in charge being all heroic and brave, trying desperately to save his team. More of that would bring us back on track a bit, IMO.

[vaberella]

This has turned into a great discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in. I agree with the loss of conflict idea. When Caldwell first came along it looked like we'd see some interesting back and forth among the 3 "leaders". But it has dwindled away. I really don't want to see him getting along so well with either Sheppard or Weir. Sheppard, of course, being military has to at least say "yes sir" and keep his mouth shut, but early on he didn't mind at least expressing an opinion. In Trinity they agreed because of the possibility

Spoiler:

of obtaining a weapon. Which is logical. But in Conversion after Caldwell basically undid some of Shep's scheduling of teams and what not, I would like to have seen some sort of discussion between the two of them.

I enjoyed the little blowups between Shep and Weir in S1 and would also like to see them not so totally in agreement. It looks like the writers have changed her so that she doesn't really object so much to some of his ideas, and he has become used to letting her make the decisions without argument. I know they can't argue all the time, but you're right no conflict means no drama.

I would like Caldwell/John interaction also. I actually like Caldwell, in 'TLG' he was the only with half a brain. And I think he was great, and I think John plays off him well when their working together on goals and similar routes, they also tend to think alike in the way things should be done.

I have to disagree with Weir/John dynamic. We haven't seen much of a change with Weir..hence the reason I liked Critical Mass. I will say this, She always had her point of view and her plan of attack and when John would have something against that then argument or resistance would ensue. In Season 2, I have seen mainly a change in John more so than Weir, hence the reason I felt the discussion should be in JOhn's discussion thread. John has muted himself..and as another poster had said and I like her words, 'reluctance'. Your statement clearly makes him out to be neutered....and yet at the same time there's this thign about him not being manipulated or a lapdog, which were terms used. I'm unsure of that, but as I have said he is definitely out of his depth..but so is she. But the focus seems to be too much on Weir...and Shep here..when I really just care about John...Weir has her own board.

It's not that he's not putting up a fighting or letting her make decisions without argument...that's just plain stupid on his part. There has been many times he's had something to say and I will attest that he definitely bites his tongue or 'reluctantly' agrees...and I like this because--even Weir has pointed out...'do you have a better idea'.

And if they do have arguements which I believe they do, they do it in her office when there is no meeting between others. They only gave us a glimpse of that being true when you see the end of Coup (and we see he probably has briefings with her after missions) and of course 'Suspicion'...and of course 'Before I sleep'...they have regular meetings one on one to discuss issues....so of course I think they do argue. But in the case of Michael, we have to base all of the 'reluctancy' that a few people felt from Shep based on his own actions, and his features. Which is great acting on JF.

I would imagine at this point that poor Sheppard is getting a little tired. He's been on several suicide missions, saved everybody countless times, gotten shot at by hordes of aliens, had to deal with Rodney and oversee the military side of the city. The guy must be exhausted. He's just waiting for the other shoe to drop most of the time and maybe waiting to pick his battles. I remember reading somewhere that JF talked about how his character was supposed to be the "fish out of water" sort of guy. Largely ignorant of the whole SGC world, facing things he didn't even know existed before he came on this mission, in a position he never expected to be in from a leadership standpoint and trying to stay alive. A lot to deal with on a constant basis for now years at a time.

And this is one of my favorite reasons...good thing I'm on the same plane as JF...and hence the reason I like his progression and transformation over other's on the show. JS, Teyla, Ronon, McKay---slow progression of character development and their taking baby steps. In the case of JS...I definitely got the feeling that he was out of his league and I loved that. Mentioned it in my last post. And you clearly see that in Season 2 more than season 1....I think in season 1, he's thought himself invincible. In season 2 he's definitely far more humble/albeit at times concieted of his title. Overall he knows he was trained for any of this,a nd he's a bit worried about making mistakes and how mistakes can be interpreted...

Spoiler:

we get that when he talks to Caldwell in Allies

.

I also think that the writers may have hit a "sophomore slump" with John in S2. They weren't quite sure where to go Lord knows why and floundered quite a bit. They tried to show his imperfection with the Kirk idea, and no matter what you think of it you have to admit at least where a lot of fans are concerned, it has backfired.

From what I gathered....shippers seem a bit more obsessed and angered by his 'kirking'. If you like the acting and if you like the storylines..you could careless about the kirking. I do not for the life of me understand why that bugs people so much. So what he's doing that, I could careless...the women are willing. And is he supposed to be a virgin? Let me tell you if I were in his place, as a female, and there were a slew of men, then yeah I'd probably do the same if they were willing. Why not? And I really don't get how important it is to his missions, he's very successful in what he does...and rarely puts a woman above the mission, except maybe in 'LFP'.

John started out as the reluctant hero. He stole our hearts in Rising when he stopped at nothing to save everybody, and broke our hearts when he had to shoot Sumner. Then he went on to prove he was a true JohnWayne/GaryCooper/everyactionheroeverborn time and time again. Now in S2 he's content to let Ronon kick shins and take names. I hope in S3 they piss the man off again and give him back his big gun.

Huh? A reluctant hero? Didn't get that. He was reluctant to go to Atlantis, but then so would I. As for a reluctant hero...he did what he had to because it was his motto and who he was. I wouldn't even label him a hero. Hero's are those guys who are glorified and put on some pedestal..ick...reluctant or other wise. He's just a guy who does his duty and his job to the best of his ability. He's a great guy and because he has such a strong credo I fullyrespect him; he didn't steal my heart (that's jus too poetic), but he's a good character.

He's content? I'm trying to see this contentness your talking about, can you further that statement with some back up so I get the meaning?

As for Ronon taking names, I've never seen him do that. Ronon's like stun or kill first, and maybe ask questions later if your still alive.

I think John has his gun if your talking about that..and he showed it well in S2, I just hope on S3---I'm wanting to see more of Ancient powers..I have myown thoughts on that, and I'm also looking for interaction more with Ronon, also loved to see some more villians and I'd like to see more tough negotiation on his part.

[Southern Red]

I would like Caldwell/John interaction also. I actually like Caldwell, in 'TLG' he was the only with half a brain. And I think he was great, and I think John plays off him well when their working together on goals and similar routes, they also tend to think alike in the way things should be done.

I have to disagree with Weir/John dynamic. We haven't seen much of a change with Weir..hence the reason I liked Critical Mass. I will say this, She always had her point of view and her plan of attack and when John would have something against that then argument or resistance would ensue. In Season 2, I have seen mainly a change in John more so than Weir, hence the reason I felt the discussion should be in JOhn's discussion thread. John has muted himself..and as another poster had said and I like her words, 'reluctance'. Your statement clearly makes him out to be neutered....and yet at the same time there's this thign about him not being manipulated or a lapdog, which were terms used. I'm unsure of that, but as I have said he is definitely out of his depth..but so is she. But the focus seems to be too much on Weir...and Shep here..when I really just care about John...Weir has her own board.


Sorry I don't know how to do that split up quote thing, so I'll just try this. I think Elizabeth has changed more than any other character. She started the mission disliking the military and not wanting to have anything to do with weapons. She even scolds Caldwell in Trinity

Spoiler:

about the military wanting a weapon as if that were a bad thing.

She had to have a plan of attack and a definite point of view. She's in charge of the whole massive Hail Mary. That's what a good leader does. I don't know what I said that indicates John has been neutered. Maybe the part about he lets her make decisions without argument. Maybe that's because he agrees with her. John Sheppard is nobody's lapdog. That was implied however by some of the things said probably in the Michael episode thread. It's hard to keep track of all the bashing lately. And it's impossible to discuss John without also discussing Weir as they work so closely together.

It's not that he's not putting up a fighting or letting her make decisions without argument...that's just plain stupid on his part. There has been many times he's had something to say and I will attest that he definitely bites his tongue or 'reluctantly' agrees...and I like this because--even Weir has pointed out...'do you have a better idea'.

And if they do have arguements which I believe they do, they do it in her office when there is no meeting between others. They only gave us a glimpse of that being true when you see the end of Coup (and we see he probably has briefings with her after missions) and of course 'Suspicion'...and of course 'Before I sleep'...they have regular meetings one on one to discuss issues....so of course I think they do argue. But in the case of Michael, we have to base all of the 'reluctancy' that a few people felt from Shep based on his own actions, and his features. Which is great acting on JF.

I'd rather not speculate on what happens off screen. We can only go by what they show us. There's enough of that going on in the shipper threads which is fun but irrelevant here. At the end of Coup I saw a friendly exchange between two co-workers of like minds. I think the briefings usually take place with the whole team in the conference room. I'd say the desk sitting gives it an informal air. I agree JF does a remarkable job of face-acting.



And this is one of my favorite reasons...good thing I'm on the same plane as JF...and hence the reason I like his progression and transformation over other's on the show. JS, Teyla, Ronon, McKay---slow progression of character development and their taking baby steps. In the case of JS...I definitely got the feeling that he was out of his league and I loved that. Mentioned it in my last post. And you clearly see that in Season 2 more than season 1....I think in season 1, he's thought himself invincible. In season 2 he's definitely far more humble/albeit at times concieted of his title. Overall he knows he was trained for any of this,a nd he's a bit worried about making mistakes and how mistakes can be interpreted...

Spoiler:

we get that when he talks to Caldwell in Allies

.

[B]Haven't seen Allies, but what conceited thing has he done? I think he was kidding in Intruder [spoil] about the burden of command and being sarcastic in Coup with the "Lt.Col errand boy" comment./B]


From what I gathered....shippers seem a bit more obsessed and angered by his 'kirking'. If you like the acting and if you like the storylines..you could careless about the kirking. I do not for the life of me understand why that bugs people so much. So what he's doing that, I could careless...the women are willing. And is he supposed to be a virgin? Let me tell you if I were in his place, as a female, and there were a slew of men, then yeah I'd probably do the same if they were willing. Why not? And I really don't get how important it is to his missions, he's very successful in what he does...and rarely puts a woman above the mission, except maybe in 'LFP'.

And why shouldn't shippers be angry at the kirking? They want him with their choice of woman. LOL. I can only speak for myself, but I am tremendously bothered by some of the kirking e.g. The Tower. He's a mature officer in the USAF representing the expedition, doing his job. He should be uninvolved with any woman in that capacity. I don't believe in The Tower

Spoiler:

that he actually slept with Mara, but he would have if she hadn't revealed her plan. He acted like he'd never seen a naked woman let alone touched one, and I am furious at the writers for putting him in that position.

We should expect our officers to have more control. If he wants a woman, fine. He can arrange something for off duty hours. People have been court martialed and thrown out of the military for this very thing. And in LTP, what woman are you talking about? I must have missed something.



Huh? A reluctant hero? Didn't get that. He was reluctant to go to Atlantis, but then so would I. As for a reluctant hero...he did what he had to because it was his motto and who he was. I wouldn't even label him a hero. Hero's are those guys who are glorified and put on some pedestal..ick...reluctant or other wise. He's just a guy who does his duty and his job to the best of his ability. He's a great guy and because he has such a strong credo I fullyrespect him; he didn't steal my heart (that's jus too poetic), but he's a good character.

I didn't make up that reluctant hero bit. He's been referred to thusly since day one. Please don't ask for chapter and verse. LOL I think it means he didn't just rush into things trying to obtain glory. That's not what a hero does. A true hero just does the right thing without thinking about his own safety. I see that as an admirable thing.

He's content? I'm trying to see this contentness your talking about, can you further that statement with some back up so I get the meaning?

JF himself has said that Sheppard is glad to have Ronon around to kick ass so he won't have to. I think it's a little joke.


As for Ronon taking names, I've never seen him do that. Ronon's like stun or kill first, and maybe ask questions later if your still alive.

Kick shins (or ass if you wish) and take names is just an expression. Not to be taken literally.

I think John has his gun if your talking about that..and he showed it well in S2, I just hope on S3---I'm wanting to see more of Ancient powers..I have myown thoughts on that, and I'm also looking for interaction more with Ronon, also loved to see some more villians and I'd like to see more tough negotiation on his part.

And I want all of the above also. Glad to see we're partly on the same page.