Morally questionable actions of the Stargate Atlantis Expedition

[Chaka-Z0]

Some people say if the Earth was invaded by zombies, some of us would be supporters of zombie rights. We can kind of draw the same parralel with Wraiths. Both consume humans.

[WraithTech]

Sorry not sure what you are getting at. What are we supposed to discuss here? Wraith etiquette?

The whole morality debate is about if SGA's actions are morally acceptable, aka warring with wraiths. How is this not relevant?

Wraith etiquette? No. That's a strawman comment. Also, off topic.

Title of the thread = Morally questionable actions of the Stargate Atlantis Expedition

Not a Wraith and Asuran hate thread.

Also, the statement with "survival of the human race" is not correct for the Wraith, because the Wraith would not kill off the human race, at least not while being tied to humans as they are now. So, that's not even a "fact" either.

[WraithTech]

Some people say if the Earth was invaded by zombies, some of us would be supporters of zombie rights. We can kind of draw the same parralel with Wraiths. Both consume humans.

That is risible and has nothing to do with SGA nor Morally questionable actions of the Stargate Atlantis Expedition. Wraith are not zombies and can and have worked with the 'gate team. Off topic once more.

Speaking of analogies and brain-eating zombies: "Analogies are good for explaining concepts for the first time. But they have no value in debate. Analogies are not logic, and they are not relevant facts. An analogy is literally just two things that remind you of each other on at least one dimension. When I see a cauliflower, it reminds me of a human brain, but that doesn’t mean you should eat brains in your salad. When your debate opponents retreat to analogies, it is because they have no rational arguments." -- Scott Adams

[StargateMillennium]

I don't think there's a single thing that can be done about the wraith that won't be morally questionable. So long as wraith exist, they will have to feed. So long as they feed on humans, humans will have to fight back. Something has to give somewhere. Even if it were somehow possible to evacuate the galaxy, all you're doing is killing them with starvation instead of bullets. Even if you make the virus optional, there's going to be some wraith who won't want to take it then it's back to square one.

[WraithTech]

I don't think there's a single thing that can be done about the wraith that won't be morally questionable.

Michael was able to find a solution that worked well for him. It could be a matter of finding his work, for all the labs he had around Pegasus, maybe even building off of it so that Wraith could still keep their ability to transfer lifeforce, to heal their young. Having Todd and Jennifer working together is an excellent start at this and there needs to be more of it.

For the Wraith who would not want to stop feeding on humans after having a workable choice, that would be on those specific Wraith and not their entire race-- nor on the New Lanteans.

[Chaka-Z0]

Please spare me the "fact" speech, we're talking about a fictional universe. That being said, what about the fact that most wraiths don't want to be "converted"? As Todd said when first presented with the drug: what will we do? What will we be?

[AleksisMi]

ok ... speaking of morally questionable choices, atlantis bullied to many human worlds early on, but between what they did with the hoffins, the genii, and others, i would say they tried then were rebuffed, i would say they should have done more for hte hoffins, they should have forced the gennii to work with them by sharing data with them and just not trusting them a hair, but constantly being thier as a trustable force the gennii could work with anytime they were willing, without dehumanizing or humiliating thier pride, no pleases or thanks required, and continued attempts to share cultures and past histories iwth them...

it would backfire the genii would likely just use everything to try to get ahold of the technology and get on top of the atlantis crews and take them over or completely strip them of thier safety, but if were going with morally questionable, then constantly not being thier offering overtures of freindships at no cost to share knowledge and resources and experiences, well.... what else can be said, thats not very morally rightious if your not willing to risk your pride, your life, your freedom, to help save others, even if they would murder or feed you to various unknown horrors or monstrosities

[WraithTech]

Please spare me the "fact" speech, we're talking about a fictional universe.

Nice try, but one still can't present fallacies such as strawmans.

That being said, what about the fact that most wraiths don't want to be "converted"? As Todd said when first presented with the drug: what will we do? What will we be?

This is not a fact either. A single Wraith positing a philosophical question, who later did take said retrovirus, along with his entire crew, is not "most Wraith." Michael initially was against it, too, then saw the benefits and acted to create his own retrovirus. But, as of this point in the game, there is no viable drug to approach the rest of the Wraith with. Todd and Jennifer hardly got to scratch the surface of working on it, having been interrupted by rouge Asgard, and most Wraith would not even know of the drug, let alone have had time to discuss it and give an answer.

I also have to paste what I already said above: For the Wraith who would not want to stop feeding on humans after having a workable choice, that would be on those specific Wraith and not their entire race-- nor on the New Lanteans.

[Chaka-Z0]

Nice try, but one still can't present fallacies such as strawmans.



This is not a fact either. A single Wraith positing a philosophical question, who later did take said retrovirus, along with his entire crew, is not "most Wraith." Michael initially was against it, too, then saw the benefits and acted to create his own retrovirus. But, as of this point in the game, there is no viable drug to approach the rest of the Wraith with. Todd and Jennifer hardly got to scratch the surface of working on it, having been interrupted by rouge Asgard, and most Wraith would not even know of the drug, let alone have had time to discuss it and give an answer.

I also have to paste what I already said above: For the Wraith who would not want to stop feeding on humans after having a workable choice, that would be on those specific Wraith and not their entire race-- nor on the New Lanteans.

2 problems with your position:

1: The drug is useless unless all wraiths agree to undergo the treatment, which has been proven not to be an unanimous decision.

2: By your logic, forcing our ways aka the drug on Wraith is equally immoral. We would be imposing our way of life onto them.

[WraithTech]

1: The drug is useless unless all wraiths agree to undergo the treatment, which has been proven not to be an unanimous decision.

It was never proven. You are making up scenes that never happened on the show and I already wrote a whole paragraph that the New Lanteans don't yet even have such a treatment. They have to have that done first before they can offer it to the Wraith to even be turned down. As much as more Wraith footage would be great to see, of them in a multi-hive gathering with the Lanteans and accepting or rejecting the drug, it never happened.

No, it would not have to be a unanimous decision. No race has to make unanimous decisions. Individuals make decisions.

2: By your logic, forcing our ways aka the drug on Wraith is equally immoral. We would be imposing our way of life onto them.

Now, you are misrepresenting me and conflating 2 different scenarios: the retrovirus from "Misbegotten" and the retrovirus from "First Contact."

In "Misbegotten," the Lanteans were altering Wraith bodies and memories without their permission. Everything was stripped from them. That is unilateral and that is morally questionable.

In "First Contact," the Lanteans were cooperating with Todd and his scientists in a voluntary delegation on both sides. Todd's hive were willing collaborators and contributors. They would be keeping their memories and their way of life: their families, their clothing, their hives, their tattoos, etc. Collaborating is not forcing. Because Michael, Todd, and Todd's hive worked on the new drug, it is not a human-only invention either. If the drug ends up working, they don't even have to so much as look at a human again if they don't want to and can move to another galaxy, because we would not matter to them any more. They don't have to live among us or adopt any human culture.

[StargateMillennium]

For the Wraith who would not want to stop feeding on humans after having a workable choice, that would be on those specific Wraith and not their entire race-- nor on the New Lanteans.

We call consider genocide the targeted killing based on race or species. But does that word still apply to subspecies? Because that would be creating a subspecies then wiping out the other subspecies.

[WraithTech]

We call consider genocide the targeted killing based on race or species. But does that word still apply to subspecies? Because that would be creating a subspecies then wiping out the other subspecies.

Which virus? As I said to Chaka, Todd and Michael co-creating a retrovirus and taking it on their own accord is not the New Lanteans forcing anything.

EDIT: Deleting part of this reply because I get the first sentence now and don't need clarification on that part. Just the virus question.

[StargateMillennium]

Which virus? As I said to Chaka, Todd and Michael co-creating a retrovirus and taking it on their own accord is not the New Lanteans forcing anything.

EDIT: Deleting part of this reply because I get the first sentence now and don't need clarification on that part. Just the virus question.

It'll have to be the second virus since the first one outright turns them human. We create a subspecies of wraith that don't need to feed then wipe out the subspecies that do. I mean, the idea is to present it to the wraith to take it on their own volition and kill the ones who don't. Is that still genocide since it is the targeted killing of a subspecies?

[Chaka-Z0]

It was never proven. You are making up scenes that never happened

Excuse me?!?
First contact:

KELLER: I don't think we're doing this cavalierly. I stand by the data. It will work.

TODD: Uh-huh. Perhaps it will.

KELLER: The question is: do you want it to?

(Todd turns and looks at her, humming thoughtfully.)

TODD: I do see the benefits, even if we only use the therapy on some of my troops, say those whose lives -- thanks to this war -- are expected to be short. Why waste perfectly good resources on them, yes? But it will be very difficult for me to ask those around me to give themselves over for the good of the human race.

KELLER: But it's for your benefit too. If you don't have to rely on human feeding, the war would be over.

TODD: Perhaps. (It looks away.) But then what would we do? Who would we be?

The Queen:

TODD: I believe your idea has merit -- if you can make the treatment work.

KELLER: It'll work.

TODD: Of course, converting a single Hive would be pointless. It would make little difference to the humans of this galaxy and it would make us pariahs amongst our own kind.

How about you double-check your facts before saying that I'm making up scenes?

[WraithTech]

It'll have to be the second virus since the first one outright turns them human. We create a subspecies of wraith that don't need to feed then wipe out the subspecies that do. I mean, the idea is to present it to the wraith to take it on their own volition and kill the ones who don't. Is that still genocide since it is the targeted killing of a subspecies?

In the case of the 2nd virus, if it would work, for the Wraith who took it, it would not be the New Lanteans' actions, but the Wraith themselves, through their own volition and their own decision.

I am not looking to defend feeding on humans if the Wraith get a viable choice not to have to anymore. They are grown adults and know the dangers they face if they don't have to put themselves in harm's way but choose to continue to do so.