Originally posted by kevin knox
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Morally questionable actions of the Stargate Atlantis Expedition
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Originally posted by Xaeden View PostCompletely? No, but there remains a level of responsibility. Say your child is a murderer and you know your child is a murderer. Would you say you have no responsibility to try to stop your child from killing just because the child is grown?
Reporting what's going on to the police also falls under good citizenry, so let's use another example. Say your grown child is a drug addict and this behavior can be traced back to the mistakes you made as a parent. Should you feel no responsibility in trying to help your child just because he/she is grown and, as part of that help, address your past wrongs? Some people would say they shouldn't, but they do so because they purposely want to distance themselves from the idea that they are the cause of their child's problems and instead lump all of the blame on their child or an outside source. They are essentially trying to protect themselves psychologically by distancing themselves from responsibility (you seem to take issue with this point later in your post).
Granted any sensible parents should try to stop their child from doing harmful things, but note that Wraith and Humans are both derived from Ancients DNA, thus both can be said to be lineages (i.e. children) of the Ancients.
If you had 2 children fighting amongst themselves, who do you side with?
Yes, if one child is murdering the other child, then yes you should make every attempt to stop the violence. Thats exactly what the Ancients tried when they fought a war with the Wraith species and lost eventually, so they had no choice but to retreat and leave Pegasus be, even if temporarily so.
If both children are grown adults and are fighting over your assets but not to the extent of murdering each other, then again who you side with is not such a clear decision anymore.
IMO, once the child grows up to be an adult (defined legally as 18 or 21 in most countries), then the parents cannot be held responsible for the actions of their children. Of course, the parents may guide and give advice to or censure the child even into late adulthood, but ultimately, responsibility still lies with the matured adult who can think and make moral choices for himself/herself.
That is why modern law does not ascribe responsibility to the parents, if their child becomes a murderer or a drug addict as an adult (generally defined as age 18 or 21 in most countries).
However, if their child is still say only a teen, then partial responsibility for the child's actions does lie with the (bad) parenting.
Finally, if the child is only a toddler and accidentally fires a loaded gun while playing with it, and kills someone in the process, then legally and logically, the parents are held responsible for carelessly allowing their child access to the dangers.
So, my point is it is easier to assign responsibility in human terms because the line in the sand depends on our legal framework.
However, in the context of seeded lifeforms & civilizational "maturity", I already pointed out this could be fraught with ambiguities. Where and how do you determine the "legal" age or "maturity" level of a life-form/civilization that you had created?
Additionally, I had earlier pointed out that Wraith could be like tigers as a predatory species.
Should God(s) who created tigers, wipe them out because they are blood-thirsty killers by their nature?
Human beings in early prehistory were also savages living in caves and hunting and killing mega-fauna (such as the woolly mammoths and other animals). Ther is also evidence that early man was cannibalistic. If a God(s) decided there and then to wipe out humanity, then we wouldn't be here.
Now, how would you know in advance if the Wraith is not also at a "primitive" stage in their moral development, and who is to be the judge? I suppose an omnipotent "spiritual" God can decide, but the Ancients were not omnipotent God(s) in that sense, although some of them did walk the path to "Ascension".
Originally posted by Xaeden View PostAlthough it wasn't explicitly addressed, there are indicators that they see humans as their successors, so they likely foresaw that they would leave this plane of existence and thus created humans like people create children to ensure their legacy.
Nothing is purely noble. By creating humans to succeed them they may have had the idea that humans would watch over the things they built in the universe and prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, but there's also a level of selfishness in creating someone who does not consent to their existence in order for you to feel as though your name or deeds can go on.
And yes, I suppose you could say nothing is completely noble in purpose. The Ancients could have some selfish agenda or some of them or a faction of the Ancients could have less than noble designs.
If we pursue your approach to the extreme, then even an omnipotent "spiritual" creator God (whatever that means), is also to be held responsible for all universal creations, including all the actions and bad behavior, murder and senseless wars and killings by human beings, right? :-)
That would imply all of Creation is somehow flawed to begin with because, ultimate responsibility still lies with the original Creator. I' not sure that would be palatable to most people, and I'm not ready to go down that path.
I'd still like to think that responsibility lies with oneself only with your own actions and decisions as a matured adult, regardless of what your earlier Creator/ Parent /God did to you on Day 0 of your creation; otherwise we're all screwed. :-)
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Originally posted by kevin knox View PostPoint taken on your assignment of their responsibility as the original progenitors.
However, even that premise is on somewhat shaky grounds if we analyse this more.
I agree the Ancients are responsible for the initial seeding activities, but where & when do we draw the line on downstream consequences?)
We learned that infant Wraiths feeds on normal food, which might be the reason the Ancients weren't alarmed for a while. But I cannot believe none of them noticed once people started ending up like old rag dolls drained of all life and decided to brush it off *Meh, not our problem*. The fact that they let the Wraiths advance so far as to become a rival space-faring nation baffles me. One could argue that the Lanteans, in their ego, didn't consider Wraith as a threat until it was too late.
As much as I usually hate prequels, I think a new SG series could explore this theme, perhaps showing different factions of Ancients that were either on the *let's not intervene* side or the *we made this mess and we must fix it*. We already saw some clear divisions amongst the Lanteans ranks (Morgan Lafae), some were prone to bend the rules and act instead of grabbing popcorn and watch the Galaxy fall apart.
Each species after creation is subject to the unique environmental evolution thereafter, and the Ancients cannot possibly be constantly monitoring their creations over the eons.
Similarly, the question we have to ask is this: Are the INTENTS of the Spanish Conquistadors noble when they first sought to journey to the New World and met the Incas?
I understand the Spanish expeditions were mostly on a quest for Gold. So their original intent is one of GREED, which makes all their efforts wrong to begin with.
So it all harks back to my point that the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.
I guess the moral of the Stargate story (and many good scif-fi) is that even when you have good intentions to begin with, things often spin out-of-control, despite or in spite of you having technologies that rival God(s)Spoiler:I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.
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Good reminder there WraithTech, I was prejudiced against the Replicators, by the fact that I was looking at it from a human perspective. My bad.
I guess we can't just label them "abominations", anymore than we can call Wraith "evil" vampires.
To each its own and each species was born with their unique characteristics and had to survive by their own means.
Although the Replicators had no compunctions of wiping our humans as a means to starve the Wraith, it would be simplistic to label them all as abominations.
You've highlighted another level of complexity here. That is, each civilization or species may have a variety of agendas as individuals within that group may have different moral standards.
Some of the Replicators could very well be against Oberoth, but did not have the means to overthrow the despot. The Replicators seems to be connected together via some sort of singular "hive" mind, which Weir at one point had tapped into, but the story did show some individualism and differing intents of some Replicators (those who had wanted to achieve Ascension), so it would seem we can't paint the entire Replicator species with just one broad brush.
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Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View Post...
As much as I usually hate prequels, I think a new SG series could explore this theme, perhaps showing different factions of Ancients that were either on the *let's not intervene* side or the *we made this mess and we must fix it*. We already saw some clear divisions amongst the Lanteans ranks (Morgan Lafae), some were prone to bend the rules and act instead of grabbing popcorn and watch the Galaxy fall apart.
Each species including the Ancients are likely not a united force. There could quite possibly be factions within that are pushing their own agenda or disagreeing with the direction their civilization was heading towards, notwithstanding the Wraith threat.
Originally posted by Chaka-Z0 View PostWhen the SGA expedition first arrive in Atlantis, they are shown on the hologram projector that the Ancients were in fact monitoring the Galaxy pretty clearly, as you could see the map of the different planets slowly becoming under Wraith control. I think things just spun out of control and they weren't able to put a Band-Aid on the wound.
The only explanation (or excuse for the Ancients) I can think of is that Pegasus could be just one of MANY galaxies the Ancients seeded. Their technological monitoring capabilities could well be fantastic but ultimately the Universe with Billions of galaxies could really stretch their attention spans. :-)
Perhaps, the first few galaxies they started experimenting with, had lots of care and concern, but maybe by the time they reach their 1001th galaxy seeding, their civilization or resources were stretched so thin that they lost focus and couldn't monitor all and sundry that happens....until, as you've mentioned, it was too late and this particular Wraith species in ONE particular galaxy called Pegasus evolved into a monstrosity that overran them.
Or, the Ancients civilization was slowly deteriorating over the eons. All empires have up and down cycles. So, perhaps the Ancients galaxy-spanning empire also gradually lost their vitality and they lost sight of the ball, so to speak, with Pegasus.
The producer of Stargate prequels better be reading this forum before he makes the movie(s), or he will get shredded by the fans here. lol.
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Originally posted by kevin knox View Post
Each species including the Ancients are likely not a united force. There could quite possibly be factions within that are pushing their own agenda or disagreeing with the direction their civilization was heading towards, notwithstanding the Wraith threat.
The producer of Stargate prequels better be reading this forum before he makes the movie(s), or he will get shredded by the fans here. lolSpoiler:I don’t want to be human. I want to see gamma rays, I want to hear X-rays, and I want to smell dark matter. Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can’t even express these things properly, because I have to—I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid, limiting spoken language, but I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws, and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me. I’m a machine, and I can know much more.
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Originally posted by kevin knox View PostYou've highlighted another level of complexity here. That is, each civilization or species may have a variety of agendas as individuals within that group may have different moral standards.
Originally posted by kevin knox View PostSome of the Replicators could very well be against Oberoth, but did not have the means to overthrow the despot.
Originally posted by kevin knox View PostThe producer of Stargate prequels better be reading this forum before he makes the movie(s), or he will get shredded by the fans here. lol.
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@kevin knox, another member started a thread about soft disclosure: https://forum.gateworld.net/threads/...iracy-Theories
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I'm really surprised they just resorted making biological weapons without really any debate. SG-1 did their dirt too but there was usually some care given. Like it or not Wraith are sentient and intelligent.
Honestly Atlantis seems like they cause most of their own problems. Waking the wraith was unavoidable, but everything after that is them just biting off more than they can chew. Creating Michael, constantly getting outplayed by the Genii, provoking the Replicators, hacking the Replicators, collaborating with the Wraith who always end up betraying them.
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Originally posted by skooma889 View PostI'm really surprised they just resorted making biological weapons without really any debate. SG-1 did their dirt too but there was usually some care given. Like it or not Wraith are sentient and intelligent.
Honestly Atlantis seems like they cause most of their own problems. Waking the wraith was unavoidable, but everything after that is them just biting off more than they can chew. Creating Michael, constantly getting outplayed by the Genii, provoking the Replicators, hacking the Replicators, collaborating with the Wraith who always end up betraying them.
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Most of the big mistakes people cite in this thread seem to be early on. For seasons 3, 4, and the beginning of 5, the New Lanteans seemed to have gotten better, busy cleaning up the aftermath and John tormenting himself with guilt.
But, later season 5 showed them being heavy-handed with the native humans and they were starting to face the consequences. In “Identity,” John had used the city as a threat: “You know about Atlantis, right? Then you know you're better off being our friend than our enemy, so why don't you be our friend and show us where that terminal is?” Yes, John was under pressure to save Jennifer, but, in a season 6, this threat might have led to more problems with the existing governments in Pegasus, such as they faced in “Inquisition.”
Originally posted by skooma889 View Postprovoking the Replicators, hacking the Replicators
As for hacking the Asurans, re-activating the Ancients’ attack code to compel the Asurans to act in a violent way, especially after Niam said the Asurans had begged the Ancients to take it away, was one of my least favorite acts of the New Lanteans. To look at others and ask how they can be of “use,” rather than to just let them be, is to become like Oberoth and the Ancients who would not let the Asurans be free (denoting the specific Ancients who did that to the Asurans and not all Ancients, because there were probably Ancients who objected).
Originally posted by skooma889 View Postcollaborating with the Wraith who always end up betraying them.Last edited by WraithTech; 26 June 2018, 06:54 AM.
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Originally posted by Az'ryel View PostI am not sure that waking the Wraith was unavoidable, they just shouldn't have gone to a place they know nothing about, at least not without someone who knows their way around and could have warned them
By the way, not that they knew this, but if they hadn't Sumner probably would've given up the location of Earth (by being turned into a Wraith worshiper), and the Wraith would've woken up early anyway to go after Atlantis in order to obtain the means to get to the Milky Way.Last edited by Xaeden; 09 June 2018, 09:07 AM.
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Some of the problems the Lanteans face is just from living in Atlantis. They inherit any anger the Ancients caused with their genocidal campaigns. That anger was so great that it did not fade in Todd nor Oberoth, after 10,000 years, and caused both leaders to make jumpy actions (Oberoth wanting to destroy Atlantis just for vengeance and Todd jumping to conclusions about the who activated the Attero device.)
I often wonder why the Daedalus Variations race was attacking the city. Was it something the New Lanteans accidentally did? Or, was it just because they happened to be in that city and were paying the price for something the Ancients had done 10,000 years ago?
Being human in an over 10,000 year old family feud doesn't help either, as parentage by Ancients was previously discussed here. Weir said the Asurans "look at the Ancients like parents who betrayed them, and now they see humans as the favoured siblings who receive all the parents' love." That's not the New Lanteans' fault, but that makes it harder on them, as other races in the galaxy might have the same feelings as the Asurans, such as the Daedalus Variations grey beings may have been created by Ancients too.Last edited by WraithTech; 10 June 2018, 04:53 AM.
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pegasus galaxy is a land in turmoil with literal vampires constantly consuming people, cities, hope, technology, and every attempt to advance understanding of life, love, and living, seriously the wraith have turned a semi civilized galaxy in the midst of being crafted into a draconian nightmare, the ultimate power just wants to eat people, no morals, no usefulness, only slavery as a mobile energy source to be devoured,
so i would say, to negotiate with such people can be done, by reasonable people who like to teach, share, help, and build, soldiers are not negotiators, they are survivers and those who help others survive, thier scientists are no better for hte most part, and they failed, because of tayla, when it came to hte genii, now do not misunderstand me, but the genii could have become allies with a better angle and by showing how capable and wise the new humans were, and how adept and cunning, but trustable, forgiving, and loyal, see thats the issue, the genii werent evil, they were just survivors, Tayla still had morals and the leadership of a protector and guider, not someone who lets people die for hte greater good
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Originally posted by AleksisMi View Postno usefulness
The Wraith were starving and suffering themselves. Life in Pegasus wasn't a party for them either. What would you have them do? What would you do, if stuck in their place?
Originally posted by AleksisMi View Postand they failed, because of tayla, when it came to hte genii,
Originally posted by AleksisMi View Postbut the genii could have become allies
Originally posted by AleksisMi View Postthe genii werent evil, they were just survivors,Last edited by WraithTech; 26 June 2018, 06:26 AM.
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