Morally questionable actions of the Stargate Atlantis Expedition

[WraithTech]

How about you double-check your facts before saying that I'm making up scenes?

That's not a scene of all the Wraith. That's just Todd, who again, changed his mind and took the retrovirus with his whole hive. We have been through this several times.

Todd =/= the voice of all Wraith. He is just one individual.

Give me a transcript where the viable virus was made and all the Wraith answered, not just Todd musing about what others might or might not do or say in the future.

[Chaka-Z0]

I'm sorry, that's not how it works. Proving a negative is not a valid form of argumentation. If you wish to prove a point, base it on actual scenes of the show.

I base my opinion on transcripts, which I think is a good basis to assume most wraiths wouldn't agree to this. They have been the Masters of the Pegasus Galaxy for 10,000 years and I think it's safe to assume most of them would rather keep the power they have over humans, which are cattle to them.

[WraithTech]

Proving a negative is not a valid form of argumentation.

Such a scene of all Wraith was never on the show.

If you wish to prove a point, base it on actual scenes of the show.

That's what I have been asking you to do this whole time. No zombies or passing Todd off as thousands of Wraith.

I base my opinion on transcripts, which I think is a good basis to assume most wraiths wouldn't agree to this. They have been the Masters of the Pegasus Galaxy for 10,000 years and I think it's safe to assume most of them would rather keep the power they have over humans, which are cattle to them.

Opinions and assumptions are just that and are not canon. But, based on this opinion, fine, let them try to keep their power and they can see how that works out for them. As I said to SM, I am not going to defend any Wraith who are presented with a workable choice and still choose war and danger, putting themselves in harm's way.

[StargateMillennium]

In the case of the 2nd virus, if it would work, for the Wraith who took it, it would not be the New Lanteans' actions, but the Wraith themselves, through their own volition and their own decision.

I am not looking to defend feeding on humans if the Wraith get a viable choice not to have to anymore. They are grown adults and know the dangers they face if they don't have to put themselves in harm's way but choose to continue to do so.

Would that not still be genocide since we would be targeting the subspecies that still feed? The original virus was 'change species or die'. The new one is 'become a new subspecies or die'.

Looking at it now, forcing them may be the best option. Perhaps not all of them. The ones who take it willingly can keep their memories. It may not be great but it certainly beats killing them. Better pissed off than dead.

[WraithTech]

Would that not still be genocide since we would be targeting the subspecies that still feed? The original virus was 'change species or die'. The new one is 'become a new subspecies or die'.

Looking at it now, forcing them may be the best option. Perhaps not all of them. The ones who take it willingly can keep their memories. It may not be great but it certainly beats killing them. Better pissed off than dead.

Now, THIS is what I had hoped to get from this thread. Excellent questions which consider all parties in the war and no bashing whole races. Just questioning actions involving the New Lanteans. A possible Wraith-Lantean conspiracy and still morally questionable too. This will be on my mind for days, especially the 2nd part. Even if I can't think of any other response, thank you for this post.

[DarkenLycht]

As I said to SM, I am not going to defend any Wraith who are presented with a workable choice and still choose war and danger, putting themselves in harm's way.

And that exactly is the point, there has to be a fair and workable solution first, butl the Atlantis team worked on solutions that mainly were good for them and not for the Wraiths. If they would take the retrovirus or the treatment Jennifer created, they would lose most of what makes them what they are, what they are used to live like or in case of the retro virus even erases their memory. To me it is perfectly understandable that they would not take any of those options, because for most I think, death is better.

Asking that of them would be like the Wraiths asking them to take a treatment that makes them not die from feeding but leaves them deaf, blind or paralyzed. Apart from that, not every human dies from feeding

[AleksisMi]

i always felt it came down to a matter for the wraithe as this, mortality, or immortality, the virus cure, does not presume to give them thier continued immortalizity

[DarkenLycht]

i always felt it came down to a matter for the wraithe as this, mortality, or immortality, the virus cure, does not presume to give them thier continued immortalizity

It's not that easy, the virus, in the forms we knew it caused so many problems for the Wraiths who took it, it's not just about unending life...it is about changing much of what they are living like.

I don't blame the humans for not wishing to be a meal but I also do not blame the Wraiths not wishing to starve, I only know that there are still humans living in Pegasus galaxy when the Atlantis expedition arrives, even though the Wraiths have been there for so long, there was kind of a balance existing until then

Some of the problems that the expedition encountered were caused by their own doing and inability to accept things the way they were

[StargateMillennium]

It's also a matter of what the expedition can do since the power is in their hands? If the virus did work, should they have the wraith a choice and kill the ones who choose not to take it? Or do they just force it upon everyone?

ANd that's assuming the virus works? If it doesn't, is it back to just killing the wraith? And if it is, is it considered genocide?

[DarkenLycht]

It's also a matter of what the expedition can do since the power is in their hands? If the virus did work, should they have the wraith a choice and kill the ones who choose not to take it? Or do they just force it upon everyone?

ANd that's assuming the virus works? If it doesn't, is it back to just killing the wraith? And if it is, is it considered genocide?

Yes, those questions would have to be answered and I would not want to be the one who makes a decision for the expedition, it's a thing that conscience has to decide about and morale

Forcing the Wraiths would lead to more blood shedding on both sides, also on the side not involved people (if there are)

Back to killing Wraiths is also no solution since that is what has been done so long before and it clearly did not work with "the few Wraith" who have been awake at once then

I would however say yes, the virus is kind of genocide and because of this really questionable to keep on using but if a right kind of virus that is balanced can be created, it could benefit both sides and there are not many other options apart from that other than killing or be killed

[StargateMillennium]

But let's say the virus does not work and they cannot find a better way. Then it would be back to the plan of killing the wraith. The question is is if this should be considered genocide. Genocide is the targeted killing of a race or species. But should it still be considered such if the targeting is the byproduct and not the intent?

[Chaka-Z0]

If the virus did work, should they have the wraith a choice and kill the ones who choose not to take it? Or do they just force it upon everyone?

But let's say the virus does not work and they cannot find a better way. Then it would be back to the plan of killing the wraith. The question is is if this should be considered genocide. Genocide is the targeted killing of a race or species. But should it still be considered such if the targeting is the byproduct and not the intent?

A really good question, this is. My personal opinion on this matter is that yes, it is, just like the assimilation of Natives in America. It was not the primary intent, yet it was a byproduct.

On the virus : I think giving them a choice to take the virus or not would have really bad ramifications. As seen in the show, the Wraiths are not as unified as one might think, we've seen many ''turf wars'' when food supplies went scarce. One could assume that Wraith would split into two faction: the pro-virus and the con-virus and a civil war could ensue.

Whatever decision is made, blood will be shed. What do you think?

[Xaeden]

On the virus : I think giving them a choice to take the virus or not would have really bad ramifications. As seen in the show, the Wraiths are not as unified as one might think, we've seen many ''turf wars'' when food supplies went scarce. One could assume that Wraith would split into two faction: the pro-virus and the con-virus and a civil war could ensue.

And those who use the virus will probably win because they will be able to reproduce, unchecked, whereas the other group's numbers are tied to the galaxy's human population. That also is why it is, in my opinion, it's a mistake to think that all Earth has to get the Wraith off of having to feed on humans and everything will rainbows and flowers; the Wraith are plenty interested in power for power's sake, have had their personalities shaped by their need to feed on humans (there's a sadistic baseline among many of who see humans as an exploitable resource, themselves as superior, etc.), and have every reason to see humans, left to reproduce and grow technologically without any checks, as a threat given the history the Wraith and humans have with one another.

Their diminished food supply is the only thing that has taken them from a massive swarm, capable of overwhelming the Ancients, to but a shadow that has to hibernate for long stretches to maintain a galaxy-wide fleet of fewer than a 100 Hives (and however many Cruisers) and when that doesn't happen they're reduced to bitter in-fighting that weakens them further. They're in such a poor state that Earth has a realistic chance of defeating the Wraith militarily in the near future. By continuing to grow their fleet, maintaining and cementing an alliance with the Travelers, possibly getting the Rogue Asgard to commit their ships to the cause, finding those advanced civilizations hiding in the galaxy and bringing them into the fold, and scrapping together found items (the Wraith cruiser at the bottom of the ocean, the Tria if its hyperdrive engines can be fixed, etc.) Earth could realistically put together an alliance that can take on the Wraith.

Giving them the virus and thus the means to reproduce unchecked is tantamount to giving them another cloning facility. It's not as fast acting, but they can still reproduce quickly on their own and grow ships very easily.

[WraithTech]

Would that not still be genocide since we would be targeting the subspecies that still feed? The original virus was 'change species or die'. The new one is 'become a new subspecies or die'.
Looking at it now, forcing them may be the best option. Perhaps not all of them. The ones who take it willingly can keep their memories. It may not be great but it certainly beats killing them. Better pissed off than dead.

This post was so thoughtful, a few days had to be taken to think on it (and I think you should screenshot your post and your idea, in case you ever want to file the serial numbers off and make a novel out of the idea).

I don’t have answers, but more questions, if even they are rhetorical questions:

How big of a change does it take to classify someone as a new race or species? Is reactivating an existing digestive tract just gene therapy, as some humans have Wraith and Ancient DNA and corresponding abilities, such as telepathy, and they are not classed any differently? I am not sure but can see that some Wraith may or may not see this as an issue.

Could this Wraith-New Lantean collaboration create a Michael 2.0? Michael was all alone, but the Wraith in this scenario would still have their homes and families. Some sites estimate nearly half of the Wraith hives have already been lost and that could further motivate Wraith survivors to act to save as many others as possible. But, would the dissenters be angry at their friends and family for betraying them and altering their bodies against their will, even slightly, even if trying to save them? Would they eventually get over it? Would most of them fall in line and go along with everyone else?

Or... might a few take it upon themselves to try to add Iratus bug DNA back into themselves to undo the change or accidentally go too far and turn into someone such as Bug Shep 2.0? How about runner hunting anyhow, even if they don't feed on the runner and would still have to be dealt with? Would they have to be imprisoned on their hives or in Atlantis, depending on who catches them? How would life in prison be for a near immortal being? Are they better off angry and alive than dead at the hands of a human for putting themselves in harm’s way?

If the collaborating Wraith tried to mind-wipe their dissenting friends and family, could such a secret even be kept in a telepathic race? Teyla was able to access the 10,000 year old memories of the Queen in “Submersion.” A dream or a stray thought might slip from a non-mind-wiped Wraith, such as memories of past cullings, battles, or runner hunts, leaving the mind-wiped Wraith to question their brothers.

Would the Lantean-collaborating Wraith have to relocate their mind-wiped dissenting friends and family to another galaxy? If they all stay in Pegasus and the New Lanteans participate in the charade, someone else in the galaxy, if even a third party such as a Pegasus human or a rouge Asgard, is going to blab, deliberately or accidentally. There are also past signs of cullings, such as the human-made carvings Teyla showed John in “Rising,” of which similar writings or depictions could be anywhere. The mind-wiped Wraith could learn about their past indirectly. Besides the mind-wipe, would the forced relocation of the mind-wiped Wraith, even if the non-wiped Wraith take them with them, also another morally questionable act?

the assimilation of Natives in America

Depending on the country. Some countries may have had assimilation and/or syncretism, but the US was a good example of a bad example—the settlers kept forcing the Native Americans to move to land that was increasingly barren such as the Trail of Tears, killed Christian families while they prayed such as the Gnadenhutten massacre, did forced sterilizations, broke treaties, and tried to suppress traditional languages. Some Central and South American countries also forced them into slave labor for rubber plantations.

One could assume that Wraith would split into two faction: the pro-virus and the con-virus and a civil war could ensue.

They could. There is already a Wraith civil war with blood being shed, so tension is already high.

it's a mistake to think that all Earth has to get the Wraith off of having to feed on humans and everything will rainbows and flowers

I can envision fall-out from some Wraith who would refuse to stop runner hunting and also some humans who would want revenge and try a Ford-style attack. Agreeing upon penalties and extradition laws for both sides would be fraught with complications. The first few decades would probably be the toughest, as things settle down and humans who survived cullings die from old age.

Giving them the virus and thus the means to reproduce unchecked is tantamount to giving them another cloning facility. It's not as fast acting, but they can still reproduce quickly on their own and grow ships very easily.

Would either side have the right to curtail the other’s reproduction or weapons creation? This is an ongoing problem even in real life with no easy answers there either. A part of the pact with the retrovirus might be for the Wraith to limit the number of masked warriors, but such a clause might jeopardize an already tense negotiation. The Wraith might have the same worries about the Pegasus humans who would also be able to have population booms, especially the Genii. Each group might feel the need for an arms race. That is possible too.

I once posed the question of whether it was right for the SGC to interfere with the Goa'uld after the Asgard treaty.

Your posts are so though-provoking. I keep thinking about this one too. Do you happen to have a link to this? I would enjoy reading, even if I don't remember enough SG1 to participate or if the convo is buried. EDIT: found it, bookmarked it, will read it!

[Xaeden]

I can envision fall-out from some Wraith who would refuse to stop runner hunting and also some humans who would want revenge and try a Ford-style attack. Agreeing upon penalties and extradition laws for both sides would be fraught with complications. The first few decades would probably be the toughest, as things settle down and humans who survived cullings die from old age.

I can envision the Wraith doing much more than that. I can easily see them turning into the Goa'uld (or Michael) and conquering/destroyed for the sake of growing their power and carving out a sense of security.

The problem with a lasting agreement of any kind is that it's not going to happen unless both sides universally feel that attacking each other again is to their own detriment. Unfortunately, giving the Wraith the ability to grow their numbers with abandon disincentivizes them to follow any agreement, particularly if it's given to them in their current state when their numbers make them more powerful than humans. What are humans to do if the Wraith start a hostile expansion? They're still out numbered and their position will continually decline as the Wraith build their power, so it's not like they can try to force the Wraith to capitulate through military means.

An agreement, therefore, would depend solely on the honor of the parties involved and the problem isn't just the Wraith. There are a lot of humans would would want to start something like the Genii or members of that fledgling alliance that emerged in season 5. Say, for arguments sake, the Wraith are reasonably honest actors: Things wouldn't just be tense with a couple of Fords running around; there would be very motivated human parties doing everything in their power to try to cause a full blown conflict because, by doing so, they could draw not only numbers to their side, but Earth as well.

The reason for that is because, of course, there would be retaliation. Humans are really good at this sort of thing. It's why there's still no peace deal between Israel and Palestine. In a nutshell, there are those on both sides who have no interest in a peace deal, so they engage in hostile acts against one another and then blame and demonize the other side when the other side responds. This exact thing has repeated itself time and again throughout history and it's a problem for your idea of a peace deal because Earth cannot keep all those humans in the galaxy in line.

And it absolutely would not end with the death of those who lived through the cullings because the hatred, bias, and fear would be passed on and reinforced when someone nukes a Hive and the Wraith respond by bombarding a world/worlds from orbit or when someone manages to ambush a high level Wraith party and the Wraith respond by sending troops into villages and terrorizing/torturing people to try to find those responsible or whatever scenario you can imagine because if you can imagine it and it's feasible someone will try it. So even if the Wraith earnestly agree to a peace deal (which I highly doubt they would) humans will give them plenty of reason to think that they need to conquer, rule, and/or destroy humans to secure their own safety and there will be those within the Wraith population who will help it along for similar reasons.

Would either side have the right to curtail the other’s reproduction or weapons creation? This is an ongoing problem even in real life with no easy answers there either. A part of the pact with the retrovirus might be for the Wraith to limit the number of masked warriors, but such a clause might jeopardize an already tense negotiation. The Wraith might have the same worries about the Pegasus humans who would also be able to have population booms, especially the Genii. Each group might feel the need for an arms race. That is possible too.

Again, these are considerations for two equal parties who have fought each other to a stalemate or for a situation where one victorious party is trying to figure out how to allow a defeated state a level of autonomy moving forward while also trying to put protections in place that can keep them from growing into a threat again. This does not apply to a scenario where the Wraith are just given the virus and asked nicely to end all hostilities in exchange.