Deep Space 9 Superior

[USS Defiant]

For me DS9 is the best trek show and the most thoughtout one when it comes down to serialized shows ! I hope if they are making a new trek show it would be more like DS9 and not like Voyager or Enterprise ( which i like though ! )

Well said Spider! Brother Fifth aptly named this thread DS9 superior -- almost everything about the show.... from the great cast or regulars and part-time actors/characters, to the excellent story-lines that were not afraid to show a more realistic (human-side) to Starfleet personnel.... was on another level. DS9 showed respect and honored the franchise while giving us a glimpse of just how great this beast Roddenberry created can be.

Hello everybody!

Hey brother WS, Always good to see you. Interesting little bit about MS (thanks for posting it). Not a very good argument. She's a tool.

[USS Defiant]

Starship down is one of my favourite episodes. It’s premise is basically the same as that TNG episode Disaster where the main characters find themselves separated and having to deal with different situations/emergencies aboard a damaged enterprise.

Spoiler:

That was one of my favourite TNG episodes so it’s probably not a surprise that I love this episode as well. What I love most is the character development that we see here as the crew deals with being stranded in separate parts of the ship during an emergency.

We get to see Worf develop his skills as a commander and become more intergrated with the Defiant crew. Imho seeing Worf in a position of command rather than just the security really brings out different aspects of his character and its fascinating to watch him as he takes charge of the situation and tries to adapt to both his new authority/responsibility and the deadly situation in which the Defiant finds herself this week. I’m quite glad that they went the route of him listening to O’Brien’s advice rather than ignoring it and learning the hard way. Worf may be an honourable Klingon warrior and quite stubborn when he has a mind to be but he is also a Starfleet officer and has never been stupid or one to ignore good advice I am glad the writers remembered that.

Imo both the Worf storyline and the Quark storylines that provide most of the relevant action in this story as Worf and his engineers try to find a way to locate and destroy the Jem’hadar vessel before it finds them, and Quark is left trapped in a room with an unexploded torpedo and farmer Hoggett, err, I mean the angry trade representative of a world he cheated. Both are situations of danger and uncertainty and provide most of the dramatic tension for this episode.
The other main characters are basically trapped and injured in other parts of the ship effectively cut off from the main narrative and existing within their own little side stories. The Dax and Bashir scenes resurface an old plot thread that had faded into the background, mainly his attraction to her, but it does so through the medium of affectionate banter and serves to show what good friends they have become over the past couple seasons.

The scenes between Kira and Sisko are more meaningful as we get to see a proper friendship begin to develop between the two. They’ve always had a really good working relationship but outside of work, well in the very few scenes where they hang out after hours which is usually when Sisko has invited everyone round so he can show off his culinary skills they seem to get along just as well but apparently the knowledge that he is the emissary has always inhibited any true friendship that might have developed.
Her attempts to keep him conscious and alive are, imho, quite amusing and range from telling him has to pay attention to her because ‘there will be a test later’ to, at his own request, telling a story about 3 bajoran brothers……really badly

But its also a touching story in her concern as she prays over an unconscious Sisko and her joy and relief when he wakes up and wants to hear how the story ended. And that scene at the end where he tosses her a baseball cap and invites her to play a round of baseball with him in the holosuite is so cute

I also love the TNG episode Disaster as well From a storytelling standpoint Starship Down is not one of the strongest episodes from S4. Fortunately the episode transcends its basic storytelling with some good suspense scenes and lustrous showmanship. On a technical level, "Starship Down" is an outstanding episode. The several battle scenes inside the windy, cloudy atmosphere boast some superb special effects (a film quality if you will).

The plot is a collection of elements that were seemingly inspired by a disaster movie, if not four disaster movies. With the ship severely damaged, key members of the crew become isolated from each other, and the episode becomes a number of sub-stories, including (A) Worf taking control of the ship from engineering so he can elude the Jem'Hadar; (B) Kira trying to keep an injured Sisko from falling unconscious and dying by telling him a story; (C) Quark and the Karemma trader Hanok (I love James Cromwell) discussing the ethics of trade while disarming a torpedo which has punched through the hull; and (D) Bashir and Dax locked in an isolated corridor of the ship with no life support. It sounds ridiculous, but by some extraordinary feat of plot engineering, these sub-stories all come together and work well.

[The Urban Spaceman]

Well said TUS! It is amazing to watch the conversion Bashir takes on. Each season we see a new or different side to his character. The writers deserve a lot of credit , as does Siddig himself. I also believe that Garak should get some credit as well (especially the way he was able to get Bashir to embrace his sarcastic and dark-side).

In many ways I see Bashir's journey of growth as comparable to that of SG1's Daniel Jackson: They both start out as naive young men whose ideals and views of the world are challenged by everything they witness and experience. The main difference is that I still like Bashir after his 'change' -- there is still a boyish charm about him, an innocence that is hidden beneath the jaded surface, which can be seen particularly during his interactions with O'Brien and Ezri. There is still a vulnerability to his nature which makes him endearing.

Daniel Jackson, on the other hand, merely gets annoyingly arrogant and, as a character, feels stale.

Again, I cannot agree more. Garak just might be my favorite (part-time) character from any scifi series period. I have him and Martok listed in my top 5 characters from the entire DS9 cast.

Ah yes, Martok. My favourite Klingon!

I really do like his character as well, I feel he really embodies what it is to be Klingon; he's brave, intelligent, and quick to recognise his friends and his enemies. Plus he's generous with the blood wine.

NO!!! DS9 is the only series I've almost never watched. I've only seen one ep and I only watched it because it takes place back in time during TOS.

To be fair, you can't judge the superiority of a TV show if you've only seen one episode of it. If you wish to watch the entire show and then offer an opinion, there will actually be something more than tribbles to discuss.

[Sp!der]

Martok is my favorite Klingon as well

[The Urban Spaceman]

We should start a cul... err... fanclub!

[rushy]

I've also heard that before GENE RODDENBERRY died, he was talking about creating DS9 so... I guess this is the last series with RODDENBERRY's influence.

[Whitestar]

Well said Spider! Brother Fifth aptly named this thread DS9 superior -- almost everything about the show.... from the great cast or regulars and part-time actors/characters, to the excellent story-lines that were not afraid to show a more realistic (human-side) to Starfleet personnel.... was on another level. DS9 showed respect and honored the franchise while giving us a glimpse of just how great this beast Roddenberry created can be.

Hello everybody!

Hey brother WS, Always good to see you. Interesting little bit about MS (thanks for posting it). Not a very good argument. She's a tool.

Thank you, brother Defiant! It's good to see you too! And yes, Sirtis is a bit bias and she also appears to be a bit bitter too.

Well said TUS! It is amazing to watch the conversion Bashir takes on. Each season we see a new or different side to his character. The writers deserve a lot of credit , as does Siddig himself. I also believe that Garak should get some credit as well (especially the way he was able to get Bashir to embrace his sarcastic and dark-side).

Agreed! I love the chemistry between Bashir and Garak, it was golden. These guys should have their own show and sing showtunes together!

In many ways I see Bashir's journey of growth as comparable to that of SG1's Daniel Jackson: They both start out as naive young men whose ideals and views of the world are challenged by everything they witness and experience. The main difference is that I still like Bashir after his 'change' -- there is still a boyish charm about him, an innocence that is hidden beneath the jaded surface, which can be seen particularly during his interactions with O'Brien and Ezri. There is still a vulnerability to his nature which makes him endearing.

Daniel Jackson, on the other hand, merely gets annoyingly arrogant and, as a character, feels stale.

A very keen observation, Spaceman. Well said!

Again, I cannot agree more. Garak just might be my favorite (part-time) character from any scifi series period. I have him and Martok listed in my top 5 characters from the entire DS9 cast.

Martok was a cool Klingon, indeed.

Ah yes, Martok. My favourite Klingon!

I really do like his character as well, I feel he really embodies what it is to be Klingon; he's brave, intelligent, and quick to recognise his friends and his enemies. Plus he's generous with the blood wine.

Yes, I've noticed that too!

NO!!! DS9 is the only series I've almost never watched. I've only seen one ep and I only watched it because it takes place back in time during TOS.

To be fair, you can't judge the superiority of a TV show if you've only seen one episode of it. If you wish to watch the entire show and then offer an opinion, there will actually be something more than tribbles to discuss.

Agreed! Come on, Rushy! Give it a chance. You're in for a treat.

[the Fifth Race]

In many ways I see Bashir's journey of growth as comparable to that of SG1's Daniel Jackson: They both start out as naive young men whose ideals and views of the world are challenged by everything they witness and experience. The main difference is that I still like Bashir after his 'change' -- there is still a boyish charm about him, an innocence that is hidden beneath the jaded surface, which can be seen particularly during his interactions with O'Brien and Ezri. There is still a vulnerability to his nature which makes him endearing.

Interesting comparison. I tend to agree, and cut Daniel some slack, that guy oozed boyish charm from beginning to end. Daniel Rocks!

Ah yes, Martok. My favourite Klingon! I really do like his character as well, I feel he really embodies what it is to be Klingon; he's brave, intelligent, and quick to recognise his friends and his enemies. Plus he's generous with the blood wine.

Count me as a HUGE Martok fan as well. Next to Worf he is definitely my favorite Klingon. I had the fortunate pleasure to meet both Michael Dorn and J.G. Hertzler at a San Francisco Trek convention circa. 1999. I wasn't looking for autographs or to have them sign anything. I just wanted to tell both of them that they will forever go down as the 2 greatest Klingons ever. I got a big grin from each and hardy handshake, probably my coolest Trek moment ever. My ex-wife posed with both of them for a picture.

[the Fifth Race]

Hello everybody! It's been a quite a while and wanted to let everyone know that I'm still alive and kicking.

Hey brother Whitestar. It is always a pleasure to see you on the superior thread. It's also good to see you are still out there "alive and kicking" lol. As am I, although with no new Stargate on air anymore, and a definite lack of quality scifi, a lot of regulars have abandoned, or in my case - spending a lot less time on Gate World.

Another reason why I'm posting is because I just read an article from trekmovie.com in which Marina Sirtis criticizes DS9 and felt compelled to speak in DS9's defense.

lol you rock my friend. I consider the source err.. the ignorant source. That alright, I love Marina Siritis, she always attended the conventions and was eager to speak and share kewl inside stuff from TNG. She is stunningly beautiful, even more so in person.

l "third best sci-fi show on at the time" (behind TNG, Babylon 5)

I love list's lol. I have my favorite scifi shows of all-time ranked as such....

1) DS9 superior in almost every way,

2) Stargate a very close 2nd to DS9.

3) TNG Picard was a relevation, plus it brought back the greatest scifi franchise to television.

4) B5 brilliant and annoying lol

5) VOY Janeway and 7 of 9 shined most

6) Farscape Scorpius alone made this show great

7) SGA It moves up my list each time I re-watch it.

8) Firefly one and done? are you kidding me!

9) Andromeda yes, I admit I am a huge Andromeda fan lol

10) Dr. Who silly, but oh so brilliant

Honorable mentions..... ENT... Supernatural... Buffy the Vampire Slayer... Caprica.... BSG.... Lost.... Torchwood.... Warehouse 13.... Alien Nation (old school scifi)....

[rushy]

Agreed! Come on, Rushy! Give it a chance. You're in for a treat.

I will one day when I finally finish Voyager, TNG and TOS.

[Spimman]

Alien Nation (old school scifi)....

A friend of mine and I were just discussing our need to rewatch Alien Nation again now that we're older, I feel like I would appreciate more.

[Whitestar]

Hey brother Whitestar. It is always a pleasure to see you on the superior thread. It's also good to see you are still out there "alive and kicking" lol. As am I, although with no new Stargate on air anymore, and a definite lack of quality scifi, a lot of regulars have abandoned, or in my case - spending a lot less time on Gate World.

Thank you, brother Fifth Race! It's always great to be here, especially on the DS9 Superior Thread. Also, I'm sorry to hear about our members abandoning this thread, I was not aware of that. Boy, sci-fi tv is living in the Dark Ages today and with so many shows cancelled before their time, this is becoming increasingly evident, unfortunately.

lol you rock my friend. I consider the source err.. the ignorant source. That alright, I love Marina Siritis, she always attended the conventions and was eager to speak and share kewl inside stuff from TNG. She is stunningly beautiful, even more so in person.

You know, I've heard the same thing about Sirtis from other people who have seen her at conventions, they say she is quite funny and entertaining. I have nothing against her, but I do have an issue with her acting ability, she is not very good at all and every time she says her lines, I can't help but wince with embarrassment. It seems that Sirtis is more fun than the character she played and I am certainly open to meeting her at a convention, if the opportunity arises. By the way, while I intensely dislike Riker, I really like Jonathan Frakes. I met him in Miami and it was my very first convention at Miami Park Plaza Hotel. The place was mad packed with people that I was barely able to make it into the hotel entrance! In fact, once I was inside, there was a wall that led to an open door and there people already crowded like sardines, and I was actually paralleled to the open door, wedged between the entrance of the auditorium and the waiting room! When Frakes appeared, the crowd went nuts and I was barely able to see him because he was so far away. Anyway, he is a lot of fun and has a great sense of humor, nothing like Riker at all. Have you had the opportunity to meet Frakes? If not, I recommend it because he's a hoot, very un-Riker-like. In addition, I am aware of how a lot of fans have criticized Frakes for his acting ability, but that's because the character of Riker was very dull and boring, essentially, badly written, but the TNG episode, "Frame of Mind" proved that he can act and it was Frakes most shining moment ever on TNG.

I love list's lol. I have my favorite scifi shows of all-time ranked as such....

1) DS9 superior in almost every way,

2) Stargate a very close 2nd to DS9.

3) TNG Picard was a relevation, plus it brought back the greatest scifi franchise to television.

4) B5 brilliant and annoying lol

5) VOY Janeway and 7 of 9 shined most

6) Farscape Scorpius alone made this show great

7) SGA It moves up my list each time I re-watch it.

8) Firefly one and done? are you kidding me!

9) Andromeda yes, I admit I am a huge Andromeda fan lol

10) Dr. Who silly, but oh so brilliant

Honorable mentions..... ENT... Supernatural... Buffy the Vampire Slayer... Caprica.... BSG.... Lost.... Torchwood.... Warehouse 13.... Alien Nation (old school scifi)....

I agree with nearly all of the aforementioned shows you listed, except for ENT and VOY. I particularly didn't like any of the characters of ENT, with Phlox and Trip being the sole exceptions and in VOY, I also disliked all the characters, with the Holographic Doctor being the one and only exception. He was the true star of the show, well, at least for me.

Also, I would like to add a few more to the list:

1. The Twilight Zone (the original series version, the 1980s version, and the 2002 version)

2. The Outer Limits (both original series version and the new version)

3. Kolchak: The Night Stalker (the original version starring the one and only Darren McGavin, not the unforgivable remake version)

4. Planet of the Apes: The Series

5. V (both the 1983 original mini-series and new version)

6. Sy Fy Channel's Dune

7. Children of Dune

8. The Immortal

9. Crusade

10. Stargate Universe (this show was akin to DS9 and BSG in quite a few ways)

11. Airwolf (excluding the terrible fourth season that "never happened")

12. Voyagers! (a time travel dynamic duo adventure)

13. Quantum Leap

14. Time Trax (The best cop on Earth pursues dangerous criminals who have fled to various parallel universes and he must stop them by bringing them back to his universe to justice)

15. Sliders

16. Eureka (I love it's wackiness! LOL!)

17. Earth: Final Conflict (the first season only)

18. TekWar

19. Mission Genesis

20. Tales From The Darkside

21. Tales From The Crypt

22. Moonlight

23. Forever Knight

24. Friday the 13th: The Series (which has nothing to do with the atrocious movie series, except in name only)

25. The Sarah Jane Adventures (Yeah, I know, but it was good cheesy fun, so sue me! LOL!)

26. Primeval

27. The Nightmare Cafe

28. Wonder Woman (Let's face it, seeing the lovely Linda Carter in that sexy suit is worth watching the show alone! Yummy! LOL!)

29. The Six Million Dollar Man

30. The Greatest American Hero

31. The Incredible Hulk

32. Wizards and Warriors (which starred the late Jeff Conaway and talk about ultra old school! LOL!)

33. Night Gallery

34. The Sixth Sense: The Series (which starred Gary Collins)

35. War of the Worlds (which starred Jared Martin)


I haven't seen Buffy, but I hear mix reviews about, however, I understand that Supernatural is quite good. Also, I think its really cool that you are a fan of Farscape, Alien Nation, Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, and Andromeda. The latter being one of my favorites because of the gorgeous and sexy Lexa Doig, who is in my humble opinion, the hottest sci-fi babe of all time! And Kevin Sorbo is quite a ham, very entertaining.

Interesting comparison. I tend to agree, and cut Daniel some slack, that guy oozed boyish charm from beginning to end. Daniel Rocks!

Agreed! Daniel is a beautiful character, very likable.

Count me as a HUGE Martok fan as well. Next to Worf he is definitely my favorite Klingon. I had the fortunate pleasure to meet both Michael Dorn and J.G. Hertzler at a San Francisco Trek convention circa. 1999. I wasn't looking for autographs or to have them sign anything. I just wanted to tell both of them that they will forever go down as the 2 greatest Klingons ever. I got a big grin from each and hardy handshake, probably my coolest Trek moment ever. My ex-wife posed with both of them for a picture.

I must admit that I was never a Worf fan because he came across as a jerk, but I guess that is to be expected when it comes to Klingon characters. In fact, I liked Martok way more than Worf, but I will also admit that I find Worf to be a far more exciting and iconic character than Riker, by far. Don't you think?

[the Fifth Race]

Thank you, brother Fifth Race! It's always great to be here, especially on the DS9 Superior Thread. Also, I'm sorry to hear about our members abandoning this thread, I was not aware of that. Boy, sci-fi tv is living in the Dark Ages today and with so many shows cancelled before their time, this is becoming increasingly evident, unfortunately.

What's up brudder WS. I don't think it's more "abandonment" than just people simply moving on (sadly). Fortunetly we still have a good core-group of regulars and the occasional newbie to GW or Star Trek that always are willing and able to talk DS9 or Trek in general. Also, I do not think the Stargate franchise is done just yet, and I doubt GW is going anywhere anytime soon. So I will lurk in the shadows (except for here on the superior thread) until then.

I agree with nearly all of the aforementioned shows you listed, except for ENT and VOY. I particularly didn't like any of the characters of ENT, with Phlox and Trip being the sole exceptions and in VOY, I also disliked all the characters, with the Holographic Doctor being the one and only exception. He was the true star of the show, well, at least for me.

VOY definitely lacked any real good characters (other than Jerri Ryan as 7 of 9, and to a lesser degree Capt. Janeway and the Hologram Dr.). But the concept and premise are golden. There are a handful or truly great episodes each season. Now as far as ENT goes.... I loved the Xindi season long story-line, everything else was mired in mediocrity . But like VOY, it lacked any real good or memorable characters.

Also, I would like to add a few more to the list:

Spoiler:

1. The Twilight Zone (the original series version, the 1980s version, and the 2002 version)

2. The Outer Limits (both original series version and the new version)

3. Kolchak: The Night Stalker (the original version starring the one and only Darren McGavin, not the unforgivable remake version)

4. Planet of the Apes: The Series

5. V (both the 1983 original mini-series and new version)

6. The Immortal

7. Crusade

8. Stargate Universe (this show was akin to DS9 and BSG in quite a few ways)

9. Airwolf (excluding the terrible fourth season that "never happened")

10. Voyagers! (a time travel dynamic duo adventure)

11. Quantum Leap

12. Time Trax (The best cop on Earth pursues dangerous criminals who have fled to various parallel universes and he must bring them back to his universe in order to bring them to justice)

13. Sliders

14. Eureka (I love it's wackiness! LOL!)

15. Earth: Final Conflict (the first season only)

16. TekWar

17. Mission Genesis

18. Tales From The Darkside

19. Tales From The Crypt

20. Moonlight

21. Forever Knight

22. Friday the 13th: The Series (which has nothing to do with the atrocious movie series, except in name only)[/B]

23. The Sarah Jane Adventures (Yeah, I know, but it was good cheesy fun, so sue me! LOL!)

24. Primeval

25. The Nightmare Cafe

26. Wonder Woman (Let's face it, seeing the lovely Linda Carter in that sexy suit is worth watching the show alone! Yummy! LOL!)

27. The Six Million Dollar Man

28. The Incredible Hulk

29. Wizards and Warriors (which starred the late Jeff Conaway and talk about ultra old school! LOL!)

30. Night Gallery

31. The Sixth Sense: The Series (which starred Gary Collins)

32. War of the Worlds (which starred Jared Martin)

I haven't seen Buffy, but I hear mix reviews about, however, I understand that Supernatural is quite good. Also, I'm glad you are a fan of both Alien Nation and Andromeda. The latter being one of my favorites because of the gorgeous and sexy Lexa Doig, who is in my humble opinion, the hottest sci-fi babe of all time! And Kevin Sorbo is quite a ham, very entertaining.

Trust me, I wanted to hate Buffy the Vampire Slayer lol, but it's just too darn good. Definitely worth the time to watch. Supernatural is another very good show (underrated IMO). Lexa Doig was brilliant and beautiful as Romie (the Staships avatar) on Andromeda. I still have Magog nightmares when I re-watch some of those end of season 1 and season 2 episodes.

Your list rocks!!!. I should have made mine more comprehensive after seeing yours lol. Night Gallery is still one of the creepiest shows ever made period!. I can remember having nightmares after watching Darren McGavin take on under-ground Vampires (I loved The Night Stalker). I failed to mention I also love The Twilight Zone... Outer Limits (which I thought was better)....Eureka (silly but fun as you say).... SGU (it was getting better)....Tales of the Crypt & Tales from the Darkside both rocked as well.

I must admit that I was never a Worf fan because he came across as a jerk, but I guess that is to be expected when it comes to Klingon characters. In fact, I liked Martok way more than Worf, but I will also admit that I find Worf to be a far more exciting and iconic character than Riker, by far. Don't you think?

I didn't care for the TNG version of Worf, but when we got him on DS9 Dorn spread his wings quite well. He is the consummate Klingon. Martok had a lot more character to him, which was appreciated by most all Trekkies. As far Riker goes...I hated him early on, but the chemistry that he and Picard built up over 7 seasons was IMHO wonderful to watch. Frakes was quite good at portraying a #2.

[the Fifth Race]

A friend of mine and I were just discussing our need to rewatch Alien Nation again now that we're older, I feel like I would appreciate more.

Hey brother Spimman. Alien Nation is one of those socially conscious shows that was ahead of it's time. I re-watched it maybe 4 or 5 years ago when the DVD Box Set came out. It was still quite good.

[The Urban Spaceman]

I have to agree with you both on several points; namely, the Worf in DS9 was far better placed than the Worf in TNG. It seems like Michael Dorn really came into his own during the former. Whether that was because of different direction and writing, or Michael simply making the character edgier, I do not know, but I really do like Worf in DS9, whilst in TNG I thought he was often overshadowed by 'bigger' characters, such as Data, Riker and Troi. Although watching him deliver Keiko's baby (Molly) was amusing.

I feel that DS9 really built on the relationship style tentatively developed by TNG. In TNG you have a great pairing in the form of Geordi and Data -- possibly Trek's first true 'bromance', and also friendships in the form of Crusher/Troi and Riker/Picard. Because of the nature of DS9, with larger story arcs and a regular supply of recurring characters, this could be expanded: Bashir & O'Brien, Bashir & Garak, Odo & Quark, Dax & Kira, then later Dax & Worf. You also get the fantastic play of Dukat against Sisko, Dukat against Kira, and it's never really clear whether he's a friend or an enemy. Even at the end you're left questioning his motives.

On the subject of Buffy -- you should hate it. A blonde teenage girl and her friends fight vampires and have adventures, watched over by a stuffy English librarian. Half of the enemies are camper than a field full of scouts, and the show is riddled with cheesy one-liners. But it really does work. Every season gets better and better, and also darker. The show deals with real-life themes, such as bullying, peer pressure, heartache and homosexuality, and sometimes, it's not the good-guys who win. Every character is well-placed, well-developed, and you can empathise with each and every one of them. The longer story arcs, with each season culminating in an arch-nemesis (or "boss") are very well written, well performed, and often heart-warming. I would definitely recommend Buffy to any fan of sci-fi and fantasy. Go into it with no expectations and enjoy how each series gets better than the one before it.