Hangover (312)

[Chelle DB]

Sorry, but I had to say this.
Will's reactionS?????
Please!!!! He only has one and he can't make any other.

I beg to differ...but that's just my opinion and what I observed.

[Kilgharrah]

Of course in Helen's case protecting her home, as well as her people, does include protecting her work. In End of Nights she killed those superabnormals who were intent on killing her and the others as well as destroying the Sanctuary network. And although she didn't do it directly, she seemed to have little issue with Druitt and Tesla rampaging and taking out members of the Cabal. Or Kate killing that Constantine guy in Hero. Plus she did track down and had the intent to kill Adam not just because he was a threat to others, but also to preserve her work with Watson at the Sanctuary.

So, IMHO, I think it's quite in character for Helen to potentially use deadly force as a last resort to protect the abnormals under her care. I also think blackmail or coercion are also tactics that she'd use to protect them, though again most likely as a last resort. She's done it before in the past, so I don't see why she wouldn't in the present.

I know that the sanctuary is her home and she's doing something good, but that doesn't make killing allowed.
Anyway, I think I see it now. Helen is not the saint I thought she was. I thought that double life would make her learn and stop doing what's wrong.
Even though I don't agree with killing as a last resort, I think it's OK to lie as a last resort. I just can't see Helen doing it.
I can't get the kind Carter image (strong air-force officer but still kind) out of my head. It gets mixed with the rogue Magnus image.

[Skydiver]

I don't think helen has ever been a saint.

Her job is to:

Protect abbies from humans that would hurt them. (which often means hiding them, lying about them, keeping people from knowing about them, giving them sanctuary from the world)

Protect humans from abbies that would hurt them. (Keep the secret of abbies. Kill those abbies that are just too dangerous to co-exist, lock away those that can be controlled so they can't hurt others, help colonies of abbies find places to live where they can hide from humans)

Study and learn from abbies, to help them, to let them fit in with humans, to 'defang' them if possible (render any harmful attributes harmless, learn how they came to be, study what they are)

Helen is no saint. She's a person doing a job that is both wonderful and terrible, and requires a massive balancing act because she's bridging the gap between two distinct and different groups of creatures, neither of which is perfectly good.

[Kilgharrah]

I don't think helen has ever been a saint.

Her job is to:

Protect abbies from humans that would hurt them. (which often means hiding them, lying about them, keeping people from knowing about them, giving them sanctuary from the world)

Protect humans from abbies that would hurt them. (Keep the secret of abbies. Kill those abbies that are just too dangerous to co-exist, lock away those that can be controlled so they can't hurt others, help colonies of abbies find places to live where they can hide from humans)

Study and learn from abbies, to help them, to let them fit in with humans, to 'defang' them if possible (render any harmful attributes harmless, learn how they came to be, study what they are)

Helen is no saint. She's a person doing a job that is both wonderful and terrible, and requires a massive balancing act because she's bridging the gap between two distinct and different groups of creatures, neither of which is perfectly good.

WOW.
I never thought of it that way. I always thought that she was doing something good because humans do tend to destroy what they don't know and that is out of fear. It is something present in human beings... always.
What I was trying to say from the beginning is that, even though we all know that Helen did many terrible things, I was always on her side and understood why she did it. This happened when we knew she kept Big Bertha alive. We can't even begin to predict how our world would be without her, so why risk it. This time and the time when we knew she tried to kill Adam, I just couldn't understand why she would do such a thing even if I know why she did it.

[Feast of the Muse]

Helen is no saint. She's a person doing a job that is both wonderful and terrible, and requires a massive balancing act because she's bridging the gap between two distinct and different groups of creatures, neither of which is perfectly good.

I agree, but I think she does what she has to do while trying to stay on the better side of her karma. It is, sometimes, a very delicate balancing act. Yes, she has to lie, blackmail, and kill occasionally. But if she didn't succeed, she'd be putting a lot of people and abnormals in danger. Kill one to preserve millions? I'd do it. But what sets Helen apart is that she isn't power-hungry (though she does know she's the woman for the job) and she doesn't have some alternate agenda. What she does, she does to improve life for both sides and protect both sides. She isn't perfect, no. But we wouldn't be so moved by her story if she was.

[Mandysg1]

WOW.
I never thought of it that way. I always thought that she was doing something good because humans do tend to destroy what they don't know and that is out of fear. It is something present in human beings... always.
What I was trying to say from the beginning is that, even though we all know that Helen did many terrible things, I was always on her side and understood why she did it. This happened when we knew she kept Big Bertha alive. We can't even begin to predict how our world would be without her, so why risk it. This time and the time when we knew she tried to kill Adam, I just couldn't understand why she would do such a thing even if I know why she did it.

The times she tried to kill Adam...did she really try to kill him? At the cliff's edge, she shot him in the shoulder, and seemed devastated when HE jumped off the cliff. The reason they were chasing him...he tried to kill a large portion of the population of London with poisonous gas, and if let alone he would try again. They were acting on the King's and PrimeMinsister's behalf to bring him to justice. If a cop had shot him, would it make it different?

The second time in Hollow Earth, Adam had stole a very dangerous weapon that could destroy Hollow Earth, the term mass murder comes to mind. Once again Helen shot him in the shoulder, gave him a chance to surrender, but he wouldn't, she couldn't let him get away with the weapon and shot him again. He survived with the weapon, but John was waiting for him when the transporter stopped. When we see the transporter sent back to where Helen was, it was empty, and the weapon was returned. We are not really sure what John did to Adam but perhaps we will find out later .

So in these instances I can't see where you are having a problem with what Helen did...it was not attempted murder, it was what any law enforcement officer would do given the same circumstances. Shoot the person causing the threat to others...in this case a large population of others.

[RealmOfX]

Of course in Helen's case protecting her home, as well as her people, does include protecting her work. In End of Nights she killed those superabnormals who were intent on killing her and the others as well as destroying the Sanctuary network. And although she didn't do it directly, she seemed to have little issue with Druitt and Tesla rampaging and taking out members of the Cabal. Or Kate killing that Constantine guy in Hero. Plus she did track down and had the intent to kill Adam not just because he was a threat to others, but also to preserve her work with Watson at the Sanctuary.

So, IMHO, I think it's quite in character for Helen to potentially use deadly force as a last resort to protect the abnormals under her care. I also think blackmail or coercion are also tactics that she'd use to protect them, though again most likely as a last resort. She's done it before in the past, so I don't see why she wouldn't in the present.

Re the bolded part, where did you get that idea from?

In FKAK re tracking down Adam she said "We decided to at the very least apprehend Adam, stop him from harming innocent people."

I see it very much like Mandy said above.

[Kilgharrah]

If a cop had shot him, would it make it different?

Yes!!! It's their job. Cops kill or imprison those who commit murders. They would hang him or anything or whatever. It's their job, not Helen's.

The second time in Hollow Earth, Adam had stole a very dangerous weapon that could destroy Hollow Earth, the term mass murder comes to mind. Once again Helen shot him in the shoulder, gave him a chance to surrender, but he wouldn't, she couldn't let him get away with the weapon and shot him again. He survived with the weapon, but John was waiting for him when the transporter stopped. When we see the transporter sent back to where Helen was, it was empty, and the weapon was returned. We are not really sure what John did to Adam but perhaps we will find out later .

So in these instances I can't see where you are having a problem with what Helen did...it was not attempted murder, it was what any law enforcement officer would do given the same circumstances. Shoot the person causing the threat to others...in this case a large population of others.

I think there is another solution for Adam's problem other than killing. It's just my opinion. Why not lock him up like any other dangerous abnormal. He is one after all and a dangerous one for that matter. His place is with all the other dangerous abnormals down in the containment area in the sanctuary.

[sanctuary girl]

First of all I don't think Helen wanted to kill Adam. She shot him so many times, if she had the intention to kill him, she would have done it at one of these occations. I think she tried to protect the public ( London in the past and hollow earth in Pax romana) with as little collateral damage as possible.
Regarding the cop question: Would it change things if there were cops who knew about the Sanctuary and protect abnormals as well? What would it take to start such an organisation and to whom would they answer? The president? The normal police? I think it's not really possible to start something like that without exposing the abnormals to the general public. just my opinion.

And now "totally off topic" : I really enjoyed this episode. The story was rather simple, but there were so many great moments:
Henry and his computer - I am the guy who wrote you- and the move of the keybord
That's the best bigguy episode so far, garbage compactor, elevator, sleeping gas, his action to cover Helen I loved all of it
Helen entering the building and her office, her face when she leaves, when she realised that "dr hottie" is already there...
Great episode

[EvenstarSRV]

I know that the sanctuary is her home and she's doing something good, but that doesn't make killing allowed.
Anyway, I think I see it now. Helen is not the saint I thought she was. I thought that double life would make her learn and stop doing what's wrong.
Even though I don't agree with killing as a last resort, I think it's OK to lie as a last resort. I just can't see Helen doing it.
I can't get the kind Carter image (strong air-force officer but still kind) out of my head. It gets mixed with the rogue Magnus image.

Well, like Sky said, Helen has never been a saint and has lied numerous times in the past. Helen had no qualms about lying point blank to the Prime Minister in King and Country, she lied to the reporter in Instinct, she lied the whole Sanctuary network re Big Bertha, she even lied to an extent to Will in Next Tuesday. So Helen attempting to lie to the UN rep in this ep is not unusual, IMO.

And while you may not agree with killing as a last resort, it is, IMHO, quite clear that Helen does and therefore that is not something I would find out of character for her. I would even say that that is something that Carter, as a soldier, would also agree with to an extent.

Re the bolded part, where did you get that idea from?

In FKAK re tracking down Adam she said "We decided to at the very least apprehend Adam, stop him from harming innocent people."

I see it very much like Mandy said above.

Yeah, I didn't word that very well. What I meant was that while agree that her primary intent was to stop Adam, I do think Helen would have killed him as a last resort. So perhaps not 'intent to kill' as much as intent to stop him by any means necessary? In Hollow Earth I really do think she was shooting to kill.

Yes!!! It's their job. Cops kill or imprison those who commit murders. They would hang him or anything or whatever. It's their job, not Helen's.

Well, in a way Helen has set up her own enforcement system outside of the police with the Sanctuary network, so when it comes to dangerous abnormals I think it's very much Helen's or the network's job. We saw that in Veritas, it was the Triad that handled trying Helen for Biggie's supposed murder, not the police.

I think there is another solution for Adam's problem other than killing. It's just my opinion. Why not lock him up like any other dangerous abnormal. He is one after all and a dangerous one for that matter. His place is with all the other dangerous abnormals down in the containment area in the sanctuary.

Which Helen tried at first, but then Tesla and Druitt used him to go to Hollow Earth and he got free. If Adam had come quietly I'm sure Helen would have locked him up again, after all she's always the one insisting on trying to capture dangerous abnormals alive while the others often wanted to kill them.

[Kilgharrah]

@Evenstar
I see your point. I think that's one of the reasons that made Gregory not able to do that job anymore. One of the reasons that made him leave. It's not an easy job at all. Not anyone can do it. If I were in Helen's place, it would take me less than a year to realize I can't do it.

[Abnormal]

OMG the mollox is SO sweet!!! I want one!!!

mollox.JPG

[jckfan55]

I think a few of you have a really naive view of Helen and what she needs to do to run the Sanctuary network. Jan has pointed a few things out and I agree with her, Helen is an extremely complex character and I think a few people are underselling just how complex both she and her job are.

As for those complaining about Helen trying to fool the UN rep, did you ever think that she may have been seeing just what the UN rep was made of first? There was a lot more going on in those scenes than the superficial "oh Helen lied" aspect that some of you are complaining about.

I agree with you. I'll have to watch it again, but I thought Magnus had a look of approval at the UN rep's refusal to be snookered.

[Skydiver]

I don't think helen WANTED to kill Adam. She just tried to stop him. But, with Adam, there are two distinct personalities. Adam that has some morals and qualms and Hyde, who's a cold blooded sociopath that'll kill anyone and everyone without even thinking about it.

There are times when something is just too messed up to survive. Dogs that are too sick or too bad tempered to live (such as Pit Bulls that have been bred and trained to fight and will even attack other dogs and people). Horses that are too foundered or lame to be able to walk. There are people that are just too dangerous to live. Ones that will kill at the drop of a hat.

As was mentioned, Hyde set up to poison a huge chunk of London, only stopped by the five. He planned to be a mass murderer. and there's every chance that he'll do so again.

[RealmOfX]

Yes!!! It's their job. Cops kill or imprison those who commit murders. They would hang him or anything or whatever. It's their job, not Helen's.

Actually it is Helen's and the Sanctuary network's job, it's why the world governments allow them to exist. It's why the Sanctuary network have to subject themselves to UN oversight, like in this episode, it's all about checks and balances in a not publicly acknowledge part of the world - the abnormal world, where any out of the normal range of things must be handled.