Resurrection Ship, Part 1 (211)

[GuyF]

Lordy this is KILLING me! I CAN'T believe that I've managed to miss RS1(211)!!!....
What are the odds in SOMEONE having a copy they would/could be willing to share?

[SoulReaver]

on a question about Cain, is she really bad? she is only doing good for the future of the human race! the part where she shot the families in cold blood i don't agree on but taking parts from other ships and suppliers isn't humane where it must be done for the future of human life!

golly gee - you're a strange one. the killing the families part was just one in a series of actions each more inexcusable than the previous:
1) stripping the ships & leaving them defenseless, instead of leaving those ships intact & taking them under her protection. That is not military procedure, that is piracy
2) refusing to allow the civilians onboard the Pegasus (that would have changed everything had she done so) - already (1) and (2) alone is tantamount to murder
3) drafting family men whilst leaving their families behind knowing full well that she was leaving those families to face a certain death (since she had the ships stripped, remember?)
4) murdering 2 of the families

clearly by these actions the writers meant to depict Cain for what she was, the epitome of evil. btw leaving the BSG story aside & regardless of context, whoever thinks such actions by a military officer can find even the vaguest semblance of justification should have their morality heads checked - assuming there's something left to check duh



on a more personal note & still leaving BSG aside, I dunno if such similar events have occurred in human military history - wouldn't be that surprised if that was the case - but if an officer who committed such actions were to fall in my grasp, then trust me he or she would take 2 weeks to suffer a very verrry slow, exceptionally & excrutiatingly painful demise, by my own hands (yeah I know it's wrong, screw that)
...on 2nd thought I think I'd keep that person alive as long as possible, Hell would be too good for such ppl
Same goes for the soldiers & subordinates who followed such orders (instead of having their leader arrested & tried for war crimes) - they ain't worth any better than the officer who issued those orders

[Back40]

clearly by these actions the writers meant to depict Cain for what she was, the epitome of evil.

I agree with your points about Cain's actions, but I'm not sure about this conclusion. I don't necessarily think they meant to show her as the "epitomy of evil", but as extremely ruthless, a "take no prisoners" kind of commander who wouldn't let anything stand in the way of her single-mindedness. She'd declared war on the Cylons and saw it as perfectly legitimate to sacrifice everything else in the pursuit of that purpose, including civilian lives (not to mention shooting her own EXO in the head when he refused an order).

Sadly, this is NOT just a fictional occurrence, there is plenty of historical evidence of this happening, and such commanders are rarely branded as "evil". If they are successful (they win their battles), many of them end up branded as heroes....

[SoulReaver]

I agree with your points about Cain's actions, but I'm not sure about this conclusion. I don't necessarily think they meant to show her as the "epitomy of evil", but as extremely ruthless, a "take no prisoners" kind of commander who wouldn't let anything stand in the way of her single-mindedness. She'd declared war on the Cylons and saw it as perfectly legitimate to sacrifice everything else in the pursuit of that purpose, including civilian lives (not to mention shooting her own EXO in the head when he refused an order).

Sadly, this is NOT just a fictional occurrence, there is plenty of historical evidence of this happening, and such commanders are rarely branded as "evil". If they are successful (they win their battles), many of them end up branded as heroes....

well at least the XO knew what he signed up for (not that she was right to shoot him since she could have simply thrown him in the brig) - but the civilians...obviously the writers meant to depict her as a murderer - even from the "legal" PoV her actions were illegitimate since as a military officer it was her duty (cf. s3e02, the oath) to protect the 12 colonies in other words the people, which included that civilian fleet they stripped for parts & abandonned. So technically speaking she was a war criminal, even without the execution of the 2 families (which is an additional war crime)
What would have been (morally & legally) legitimate was to either 1) take command of the civilian fleet (best choice?) or 2) strip the civilian fleet for part to upgrade the Pegasus AND take all the civilians on board the Pegasus, in fact they would have been a hell of a lot safer inside a huge armored Battlestar than aboard those tiny civilian ships

but yu're right unfortunately when officers go rogue in times of war sometimes their government simply takes the "ends justify the means" attitude (though even this wouldn't have "justified" Cain abandonning & killing the civilians) and refuse to prosecute the officers & sometimes even reward them if the mission was successful. I suppose that's how in worked in Germany or USSR during WWII



mm...could Cain have been a cylon?

[rarocks24]

All the reports about Cain are well, as far as I know unconfirmed. I think something happened, definitely. But I think we're only getting one view of it. As to what Cain did...well, what other choice did she have? She didn't know Galactica survived and with a civilian fleet was retreating to Earth. And given the circumstances, I don't particularly blame her for having to make the call to draft them in the first place. How are they supposed to defend an entire civilian fleet when half the crew is dead?

Probably something happened and the situation just escalated out of her control. I also think that if the situation is as bad as they say, then she wouldn't have maintained control over Pegasus. I think finding Adama though and the fleet slowly allowed her to regain her sense of rationality.

[SoulReaver]

it ain't the drafting alone that poses problem it's the drafting in conjunction with all the rest, like separating the draftees from the families and even worse, separating them from the families after the fleet had been left defenseless & crippled (so that's akin to murder since their chance of survival was next to zero) - basically she took every worst possible course of action at every step & piled aggravating circumstances upon aggravating circumstance, as though she deliberately wanted to kill off the civilians. the execution of the 2 families was just another "straw" but the camel's back had been broken long before, duh

If it wuz so hard to take over & protect an entire fleet (was it? yeah these were only civilian ships but they also had FTL plus some of them even had weapons, so they were at least better off than Adama's fleet) then like I said she could still have scavenged the civilian ships for parts, then drafted some civilians and taken the rest of the civilians on board under the protection of the Pegasus, that would've changed everything


btw as to the situation somehow escalating outa control I don't see how any "escalation" would have even remotely justified killin 2 families inc. women & kids - unless the children formed an armed commando & tried to take over the Pegasus or something -)

[Back40]

All the reports about Cain are well, as far as I know unconfirmed. I think something happened, definitely. But I think we're only getting one view of it. As to what Cain did...well, what other choice did she have? She didn't know Galactica survived and with a civilian fleet was retreating to Earth. And given the circumstances, I don't particularly blame her for having to make the call to draft them in the first place. How are they supposed to defend an entire civilian fleet when half the crew is dead?

Probably something happened and the situation just escalated out of her control. I also think that if the situation is as bad as they say, then she wouldn't have maintained control over Pegasus. I think finding Adama though and the fleet slowly allowed her to regain her sense of rationality.

1) The reports are confirmed (read an interview with RDM posted somewhere where he confirmed that she HAD done everything she was accused of doing - sorry, can't remember where, if I find it, I'll post the link for you).

2) As to what choice she had, well, she could have chosen to do what the Galactica did and take the civvies with her, either on the Pegasus or in a small fleet.

3) Draft away, nothing wrong with that....until you kill their families if they resist (and why wouldn't they resist, once the civilian ships were stripped, they would have figured out that the civilian ships were going to be marooned and they were being forced to leave their families to certain death). OK, she didn't have enough crew to man the Pegasus to protect a civilian fleet BUT she did have enough crew to launch attacks on the Cylon fleet? Your logic escapes me here.

4) Yes, she would have maintained control. Read your history on the success of military dictators....and I think you can safely assume that after she shot her own EXO in the head for refusing an order, nobody else was going to stick their neck out.

Pity that she DIDN'T have a Laura Roslin to act as her conscience...then again, maybe not, she'd probably have airlocked her......

[SoulReaver]

3) Draft away, nothing wrong with that....until you kill their families if they resist (and why wouldn't they resist, once the civilian ships were stripped, they would have figured out that the civilian ships were going to be marooned and they were being forced to leave their families to certain death).

Exactly

as long as they took every civilian on board - come to think of it that solution would even have been better than dragging an entire fleet of unarmed/lightly armed civilian ships along, and the civvies would have been a lot safer onboard the Pegasus (heck I'll choose a Navy carrier bristling with guns over a whaling ship armed with a harpoon any time -)

basically
- leaving the civvy ships intact & taking the fleet under military command => perfectly legitimate, tactically questionable, OK at best
- stripping the civvy ships to upgrade the Pegasus, drafting some civvies & taking the rest of them onboard the Pegasus => perfectly legitimate & tactically wise
- stripping the civvy ships to upgrade the Pegasus, drafting some civvies & abandoning the rest to a doomed fate => murder


btw I'm surprised the civilian fleet didn't resist (apparently they didn't) when the Pegasus crew wanted to strip them, especially when they knew they'd be left stranded
unless the admiral tricked them say by promising to take them onboard once the Pegasus had all the parts & equipment (the civvies must have been overjoyed at that moment) then at the last moment drafted a handful of civvies & abandonned the rest of them & their crippled fleet (at which point the "overjoy" turned into nightmare)

I'd also have expected those family men who were drafted to take their revenge on the admiral or something, hell she condemned their families to a certain death yet Laird seemed to take it pretty good

The Pegasus crew wuz kinda reminiscent of the Mirror Universe in Star Trek ToS

[Back40]

I'd also have expected those family men who were drafted to take their revenge on the admiral or something, hell she condemned their families to a certain death yet Laird seemed to take it pretty good

The Pegasus crew wuz kinda reminiscent of the Mirror Universe in Star Trek ToS

I guess it comes down to whether they wanted to live after their families were abandoned. Liard seems to have "adjusted", at least on the surface, but he might be the exception. You'll have noticed that the officers were under arms on the Pegasus all the time, and there were marines posted everywhere, particularly outside CIC. Maybe there was a good reason for this......

[SoulReaver]

I guess it comes down to whether they wanted to live after their families were abandoned. Liard seems to have "adjusted", at least on the surface, but he might be the exception. You'll have noticed that the officers were under arms on the Pegasus all the time, and there were marines posted everywhere, particularly outside CIC. Maybe there was a good reason for this......

not just abandonned - abandonned to a hopeless fate (ships stripped)
personally the only reason I'd wanna live after that (assuming I didn't resist drafting, try to take a marine's gun & kill as many marines as I could before being arrested or gunned down, which is also something I may have done) would be to live to take revenge on the person responsible for this...

anyway the simple fact that they were draftees (thus part of the crew) would have made it easier for them to kill the admiral, after all when you draft a person you're not just taking them onboard your ship since you're also giving them some access to the ship, this implies a significant amount of trust - Laird for example had access to armed fighter ships! For example a drafted officer could ask to speak to the admiral about some technical issue & then slit her throat with a canteen knife (OK he might be shot on the spot if there were marines around, but still) etc.


btw Laird did look kinda weirdo don't u think? not emotionally shattered or anything, just...odd

[SoulReaver]

also Gina (a known cylon prisoner!) had access to Cain's quarters pretty easily, duh

[Back40]

For example a drafted officer could ask to speak to the admiral about some technical issue & then slit her throat with a canteen knife (OK he might be shot on the spot if there were marines around, but still) etc.

btw Laird did look kinda weirdo don't u think? not emotionally shattered or anything, just...odd

Ten bucks says the Admiral knew how to use that cannon she carried too....

He looks shell-shocked....that's why I put "adjusted" in quotes - I get the feeling he hasn't adjusted at all, I think he's just going through the motions of living. Wouldn't be surprised to find out his family was one of the two that were executed....

[Back40]

also Gina (a known cylon prisoner!) had access to Cain's quarters pretty easily, duh

Snagged the ID card/door card off the marine who's neck she snapped....

[SoulReaver]

Ten bucks says the Admiral knew how to use that cannon she carried too....

He looks shell-shocked....that's why I put "adjusted" in quotes - I get the feeling he hasn't adjusted at all, I think he's just going through the motions of living. Wouldn't be surprised to find out his family was one of the two that were executed....

hundred bucks a tiny knife could do it's deadly job before she could draw & fire

u mean Laird would've accepted to come along even after they were executed? wtf, if so he is weird...I mean weirder than weird...either that, or plotted revenge but we'll never know

besides Laird seemed quite devoted to his work, almost enthusiastic...way too enthusiastic for someone under "shock"...that's the impression I got anyway...



The way the XO said it I reckoned the entire families were executed, that included those men who refused to come along - like Cain wanting to set an example to the remaining selectees

[SoulReaver]

Snagged the ID card/door card off the marine who's neck she snapped....

OK so that's the key to the admiral's door...and still made it from the brig, through that huge battlestar (I doubt officers' quarters are next to the brigs, let aone high ranking ones) all the way to the admiral's door undetected ?!



guess the crew musta been "celebrating" a little too much, as Adama put it