Resurrection Ship, Part 1 (211)

[apollo123]

yes i get what you are saying, but even in that context of the stratedgy of staying and fighting, stripping the civilian fleet and leaving them was still poor stratedgy. Basiclly she just put all her eggs in one basket that doesnt have a chance in hell of succeeding in its mission. She is incredibly out numbered and even being civilians those were potential reinforcements. Lets say she hadnt met up with Galactica and Co. She begins her hit and run war against the cylons. She causes some damage each time but at the same time she is going to be taking damage. And losing crew members. All her spare parts are stored on board, she has no safe haven to retreat to to lick her wounds. How long would she have to stop and repair after a battle before the cylons follow if they dont have a secure base? Each time the ship is damaged it is going to consume spare parts, and plus there is also the possibility of losing spare parts from damage incurred to the ship during fights. Before long, even if they manage to get away each time the ship is going to be less and less operative as the crew dimishes. Eventually it will reach the point where the ship will be unable to continue and the cylons will destroy them.

Now a viable stratedgy for her chosen course of action would be very different. You don't abandon the civillian fleet, you escort them someplace safe and secure to establish a base from which to mount your guerilla war. You conscript civillians into service and leave some trained officers at the base to run things and teach the civillians. If possible you find another depot like Ragnar and raid it. Convert the civillian ships or just augment them to make them better (Fisk did say that some of the civilian ships were armed and they stripped the weapons from them). Your base starts re-establishing a tech base to work with and if the location was chosen properly starts harvesting raw materials. You conduct a snatch and grab campaign on shipyards and refineries and such to gather technological assest to further establish a tech base. You scout the 12 colonies and get a feel for the cylons deployment and what assets are intact. Then you conduct your campaign of attacks. Thats what a stratedgy is. Cain has no stratedgy, she just wants to fight and kill.

Ok now that argument I can buy. Thanks.

[Speakfire]

That's a very good point. Judging from what he said in Bastille Day, every military officer apparently takes an oath to uphold the articles of colonization.

[Lightsabre]

That's a very good point. Judging from what he said in Bastille Day, every military officer apparently takes an oath to uphold the articles of colonization.

Actually yes. So they do speak about the duties of an officer.
I resubmit my previous statement about Cain betraying the principles of the service.
I must temper that, tho, with the fact we've never read the Articles of Colonisation.

[apollo123]

But the thing is, you haven't given any evidence to show this.
It allows Cain to resupply?
Keeping them allows Cain to resupply more than once.
It was a bad strategic move, for winning a war, because you cannot win a war with one ship, especially one that is outclassed.

Well I was pointing out that having a civilian ship following you around isn't exactly a good thing when you're going offensive. For Adama, it makes sense, but less so for Pegasus. Having a ship that has no weapons and little defensive capabilities is only going to hinder you in battle, unless you're going to use it purely as a decoy. spg_1983, however, does make a good point about how better she could've use the civilian ship without bringing it into battle with them.

[Blue Banrigh]

Further, Cain had no knowledge of the survivors on Caprica before her encounter with the fleet. She thought all she had was on Pegasus.
That means her stated goal of recapturing the colonies was a lie.
She may win (very very unlikely) but humans would be dead either way.

She might not have known about the survivors but that doesn't mean she didn't plan to return to the colonies.

She wants to defeat/destroy the cylons to do that at some point she must oust them from their homes. Recapturing the colonies would have the added benefit of allowing them to resupply.

[apollo123]

Actually yes. So they do speak about the duties of an officer.
I resubmit my previous statement about Cain betraying the principles of the service.
I must temper that, tho, with the fact we've never read the Articles of Colonisation.

I was just about to say, what exactly does the Articles of Colonization say?

[Lightsabre]

Well I was pointing out that having a civilian ship following you around isn't exactly a good thing when you're going offensive. For Adama, it makes sense, but less so for Pegasus. Having a ship that has no weapons and little defensive capabilities is only going to hinder you in battle, unless you're going to use it purely as a decoy. spg_1983, however, does make a good point about how better she could've use the civilian ship without bringing it into battle with them.

You are 100% correct. Dragging a civillian ship into battle makes for bad, bad strategy.
However, not one of us ever advocated Cain taking her civ fleet into battle.
You have maintained that taking civillians was a bad move for Cain, but that statement is predicated on her taking them into battle.

[Lightsabre]

She might not have known about the survivors but that doesn't mean she didn't plan to return to the colonies.

She wants to defeat/destroy the cylons to do that at some point she must oust them from their homes. Recapturing the colonies would have the added benefit of allowing them to resupply.

My point was that she loses crew members in each engagement.
As far as Cain knows, that small rag tag fleet she found was the last of humanity.
By turning her back on them, she effectively condemned the human race.
She may have planned to return, but to the best of her knowledge, everyone was dead.
So, she planned to defeat an unknown number of superior warships, then recolonise with the remenants of the crew of one ship?
Does that sound sane to anyone?

[Lightsabre]

I was just about to say, what exactly does the Articles of Colonization say?

Well, there must be something in there about the Pres being commander in chief, since Roslin pulls Rank on Apollo in the mini.
Further, doesn't she tell Lee, and then Adama, that their duty is to safeguard the fleet, rather than kill Cylons??
I'll check on that later.

[apollo123]

You are 100% correct. Dragging a civillian ship into battle makes for bad, bad strategy.
However, not one of us ever advocated Cain taking her civ fleet into battle.
You have maintained that taking civillians was a bad move for Cain, but that statement is predicated on her taking them into battle.

Well you said that Pegasus should take them along, which I took to mean that they would follow Pegasus much like the civilian fleet follows Galactica. Even if they don't deliberately take them into battle, having a defenseless ship following them while they are on the offensive and in constant threat of attack isn't a good thing. spg_1983 mentioned keeping them in a safe place, a home base, which is something that was only brought up recently in the discussion.

[Blue Banrigh]

My point was that she loses crew members in each engagement.
As far as Cain knows, that small rag tag fleet she found was the last of humanity.
By turning her back on them, she effectively condemned the human race.
She may have planned to return, but to the best of her knowledge, everyone was dead.
So, she planned to defeat an unknown number of superior warships, then recolonise with the remenants of the crew of one ship?
Does that sound sane to anyone?

I'm not questioning her (in)sanity, I agree her perspective is somewhat skewed. I'm just saying I don't think she has recolonization in mind, she has made no mention of it so far.

Her one goal is to defeat the cylons (or at the very least making a last stand), that's it. Futile as it is trying to win back the colonies is a symbolic gesture.

So she'll lose a few crew members each engagement but in her mind she probably thinks she'll lose a lot more if she also has a civilian fleet to defend. By herself the Pegasus can pick and choose which battles she fights.

I don't think she has planned anything beyond the final battle. Like someone said before, much like the previous Cain she probably plans to go out in a blaze of glory.

Friday/Saturday yet?

[Lightsabre]

Well you said that Pegasus should take them along, which I took to mean that they would follow Pegasus much like the civilian fleet follows Galactica. Even if they don't deliberately take them into battle, having a defenseless ship following them while they are on the offensive and in constant threat of attack isn't a good thing. spg_1983 mentioned keeping them in a safe place, a home base, which is something that was only brought up recently in the discussion.

Ah, sorry, I meant that Pegasus should escort them like BSG does to it's fleet.
This doesn't mean that the Pegasus couldn't go off on single strike missions, however.
Also, remember that some of the BSG fleet is armed, and so were some of Pegasus's.
The fleet doesn't HAVE to left at a base, even a point in space designated as a meeting place would work.
Either way, both are better ideas than stripping the ships.

[LoneStar1836]

It was very close when it showed up on dradis.. that might have been a factor.

That’s a possibility , but I’m going to go with what Hatcheter said earlier. That Galactica picked up the communication between Starbuck and Apollo thus tripping the dradis.

In Flight of the Phoenix, she jumped away but then jumped back and closed in on Lee who was still pretty close to Galactica, yet she wasn’t detected.
LoneStar 1836: I just wanted to say, Kara was able to get so close to the resurrection ship because she turned of all her electronics off and just used the stability pedals, just like she did when test flying it with Lee (saw her turn off her helmet light in both episodes 209 flight of the Pheonix and 211 resurrection ship part 1 we saw her it the electronics off).

Yeah, I did notice that she cut the engines after jumping to the Resurrection ship. But I figured that was to make her less noticeable, visually. But I guess electronic signals could give her away. I’m not on the up and up with how stealth technology works in detail other than the shape of the plane dictates how radar signals are bounced off the aircraft and/or you can have the plane designed with a skin that will absorb radar waves. The Blackbird sort of applies the first one in that is does have flat edges that deflect the signal elsewhere but I thought its main advantage was the carbon composite skin that I’m assuming absorbs the signal.

Where did it [Blackbird] get FTL from? Did they take it from one of the heavy raiders they have access to? (one that crashed port flight deck) (one that Sharon flew back)

I just assumed it was the type of engins that Tyrol installed. He got those junk engins from a guy in the fleet that Tigh knew. Maybe they were already FTL capable.

Oh just a random statement "I have to wait until Monday to see part 2" so note spoilers if you've seen it and are still posting here. Please....

That's actually a manditory forum rule. Any discussion of future episodes in a previous episode thread must be in SPOILER TAGS. [spoiler]text here[/ spoiler] (minus the space) And any discussion of the current season (S2) elsewhere on the board whether the eps have already aired or not are required to be tagged as well within a thread unless that thread has a spoiler warning in the title of the thread.

And poor you having to wait till Monday. Thank the gods that tomorrow is Friday. Yay! I've had my fill of the workday this week.... And yay! It's a holiday Monday. Thank you MLK, Jr.

[somedude]

You are 100% correct. Dragging a civillian ship into battle makes for bad, bad strategy.
However, not one of us ever advocated Cain taking her civ fleet into battle.
You have maintained that taking civillians was a bad move for Cain, but that statement is predicated on her taking them into battle.

But even civvie ships have their uses, as Starbuck demonstrated in Season 1. They make for good decoys and Viper transporters.

[Mr. Seven]

Yeah for Cain taking civilians with her was a bad idea.

Sure she could leave them at a "safe zone" and then jump --> attack --> then jump back.

"Fisk, where did we leave the civilians this time?"