Resurrection Ship, Part 1 (211)

[GALACTIC MYTH]

GM, we don't disagree. What I mean is that from her point of view, with "Anything it takes to win this war" as her priority, her decisions are logical. Adama, in sharp contrast, was convinced early on that the war is over -- "We lost."

She's absolutely over the line in conscripting civilians, and obviously in murdering people to make sure she gets who and what she thinks she needs. But her sole goal is "Win the war, at all costs." I find it fascinating that this is where Adama, in theory, could have gone without Roslin.

Ok "could have gone without Roslin", possible but I believe some one from the crew would of told him that its the wrong choice, (like D did in "Home Part 1 and Home Part 2" to rejoin the fleet.)

[Lightsabre]

Speakfire, thats exactly what I was going to say, so thank you for saying it for me.

Lightsabre, so if you were Cain you would destroy Galactica at the cylon attack, and then pray that you don't come across them again?

Anyways if Kara is in Cains "command structure" Cain knows where she's located and doing at every moment as Kara being Captain, (although she was able to sneek away last time as a Lt.) also it'll be harder because she would have to report and get approveal directly to and from Cain and not avoid the chain of cammand.

If I was Cain, I would make sure the Galactica took the brunt of the Cylon attack, thus keeping my battlestar in better shape. Should we lose and I needed to run, I have the better chance of making it. Should we win and the BSG is destroyed, my enemies are gone.
Should we win, the BSG will be very heavily damaged, meaning I can storm it and arrest Adama, or simply threaten to blow it up.

I accept that bringing Kara into the command structure will help to keep an eye on her, but to me, giving her power means she will use it. which in turn means she could use it against me. The very annonimity that allows her to sneak off also means she cannot do a thing against me.

[Lightsabre]

GM, we don't disagree. What I mean is that from her point of view, with "Anything it takes to win this war" as her priority, her decisions are logical. Adama, in sharp contrast, was convinced early on that the war is over -- "We lost."

She's absolutely over the line in conscripting civilians, and obviously in murdering people to make sure she gets who and what she thinks she needs. But her sole goal is "Win the war, at all costs." I find it fascinating that this is where Adama, in theory, could have gone without Roslin.

See, here again, I don't see the comparison.
Cain is young, Adama old. Adama fought in the Cylon war, hell he was a hero by the sounds of it.
Cain did not.
Cain is an admiral at a young age because she was fast tracked through. Why? we don't know. But, that sort of treatment tends to make a person think they are charmed, special, a cut above the rest.
Adama, on the other hand, worked for his command. He fought and bled and killed for it.
He runs his ship like a family, with himself as a patriarch. There is loyalty there, precisely because his people know he WON'T do a Cain on them.
He wouldn't have done what Tigh did, in ordering the martial law that came back to bite them on the backside.
Look at Tyrol, in the mini. He tells Adama "I know you would have given my people the time to make it to the hatch".
Adama tells him he wouldn't, then tells him why. He is stern, but it's never, 'obey my orders or die' sort of sterness.
Sorry, this rambled a bit. Basically, while Adama may have gotten darker and more ruthless, I don't think he would ever have turned into Cain.

[Liebestraume]

The friend who had told me to check out BSG -- on the eve of 33 premier -- said this was an awesome episode because of "... all those flippy ships" and "other stuff." As I was watching Resurrection Ship last night, I almost forgot about "all those flippy ships" because "other stuff" were just so darn captivating.

One of the things I love about this show is that every seemingly throw-away scene is pregnant with meanings. Take, for example, the "let-go" discussion between Chief and Helo. What each of them said is entirely reflective of their respective personality and position. And Cain's reviling of Gina -- who used to "sit in our mess, eat our food, etc." -- raised the ugly possibility that the latter had once been a member of the her crew, much like Boomer had been on Galactica.

The short scene between Baltar and Six was fascinating to me, because it indicated his continued disassociation from the human race. I still remember a scene from the first half of S2 where, amidst the chaos on Galactica, he was caught up in a reverie of observing fish in a stream. If he had only felt a passive sense of detachment back then, he seemed to be poised to actively sever ties with humanity now. "I'm tired of this" -- and by "this" I took he meant the idea of his home on Caprica, a symbol of and a link to his human heritage.

Someone once said "women have all the balls on BSG" -- an over-simplification, to be sure; but I came close to agreeing with that last night . During the confrontation/conference aboard Colonial One, one could clearly see both women were coldly, and without any scruples, assessing the situation. Not that any of this made me see Adama in a bad light, because his sense of honor is one of the things I love about him; however, it was also very obvious that he absolutely needs Roslin. (As a side note, their interaction totally gave off the vibe of "old friends." Given how long the characters knew each other, I would not have believed that possible had it not been the amazing performance by the actors.)

As for the other woman, I couldn't help to feel a certain degree of empathy for her. It was painfully clear that Cain was fighting a war that had been lost a long time ago. One of the reasons, as other posters have pointed out up-thread, was that Cain never had a Roslin telling her "the war is over, and we lost." But I rather suspect that, had Roslin been there to tell her all this, she might not have listened. Not necessarily because Cain was crazy, but because she was the kind of warrior whose goal in life was to fight -- she always knew what to fight against, just not whom to fight for. It's sobering thought.

[Lightsabre]

Someone once said "women have all the balls on BSG" -- an over-simplification, to be sure; but I came close to agreeing with that last night . During the confrontation/conference aboard Colonial One, one could clearly see both women were coldly, and without any scruples, assessing the situation. Not that any of this made me see Adama in a bad light, because his sense of honor is one of the things I love about him; however, it was also very obvious that he absolutely needs Roslin. (As a side note, their interaction totally gave off the vibe of "old friends." Given how long the characters knew each other, I would not have believed that possible had it not been the amazing performance by the actors.)

I've heard that statement before, and I don't really agree. THe women of BSG are tough little cookies, but then, so are the men.
Adama, in the scene on Colonial One, was very, very ridgidly keeping himself in check. He wasn't talking to or acknowledging Cain becuase to do so could lead to him losing control as badly as she did.
I don't get how you can say Cain had balls. She was blustering and yelling. I thought it was vaugely pathetic.
As to Adama needing Roslin, I didn't get that at all. I saw the 'old friends' thing tho, came through very strongly.
Also notice that Adama not blustering and Raging like Cain did meant that Roslin didn't treat him like a naughty school child like she did to Cain

As for the other woman, I couldn't help to feel a certain degree of empathy for her. It was painfully clear that Cain was fighting a war that had been lost a long time ago. One of the reasons, as other posters have pointed out up-thread, was that Cain never had a Roslin telling her "the war is over, and we lost." But I rather suspect that, had Roslin been there to tell her all this, she might not have listened. Not necessarily because Cain was crazy, but because she was the kind of warrior whose goal in life was to fight -- she always knew what to fight against, just not whom to fight for. It's sobering thought.

This is the other thing I hate about the Cain/Adama comparisions. I'm not convinced Adama would have become Cain, or Cain to the degree she's at now, without Roslin. I do think things would have been run militarily and military needs would come first, but I can't see Adama jettisoning ships or forcing conscription.
For those that will say he was going to abandon the fleet, it's true, he was. But he wasn't going to strip them and leave them, and he didn't pick over their crew manifests.
He was simply going to attack the enemy and leave the civillians to run.

[Liebestraume]

I've heard that statement before, and I don't really agree. THe women of BSG are tough little cookies, but then, so are the men.
Adama, in the scene on Colonial One, was very, very ridgidly keeping himself in check. He wasn't talking to or acknowledging Cain becuase to do so could lead to him losing control as badly as she did.
I don't get how you can say Cain had balls. She was blustering and yelling. I thought it was vaugely pathetic.
As to Adama needing Roslin, I didn't get that at all. I saw the 'old friends' thing tho, came through very strongly.
Also notice that Adama not blustering and Raging like Cain did meant that Roslin didn't treat him like a naughty school child like she did to Cain

In case you haven't noticed the little smiley, I'll let it be known that I was speaking half in jest. Here is another one ...

As for Adama needing Roslin, he definitely did here. She was the one who saw what was the "necessary evil" and pushed him towards that course of action.

This is the other thing I hate about the Cain/Adama comparisions. I'm not convinced Adama would have become Cain, or Cain to the degree she's at now, without Roslin. I do think things would have been run militarily and military needs would come first, but I can't see Adama jettisoning ships or forcing conscription.
For those that will say he was going to abandon the fleet, it's true, he was. But he wasn't going to strip them and leave them, and he didn't pick over their crew manifests.
He was simply going to attack the enemy and leave the civillians to run.

I am sorry ... but where did I say Adama would have become Cain without Roslin?

In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that he would never have become Cain.

[GALACTIC MYTH]

I'm not sure if anyone did say or is saying that if Adam didn't have Roslin he would've become Cain. But if you are I disagree.

Adama is the kind of person who will always do the right thing, even if he doesn't come to that conclusion right-away. Take the flashbacks of Tigh and Adama for instence (I won't explain them cause I assume you've seen them). Also no one made Adama the man he is, he is a an honorable, loyal man by heart that always been apart of him. (not sure if that made sence). NO one makes choices for Adama he does he can agree or disagree but finds a solution. Adama is a good man and would never become a Cain, and that could bother Cain. (okay went off there for a sec but Im done now.)

[Lightsabre]

In case you haven't noticed the little smiley, I'll let it be known that I was speaking half in jest. Here is another one ...

As for Adama needing Roslin, he definitely did here. She was the one who saw what was the "necessary evil" and pushed him towards that course of action.

I see your point, but I also think you are overstating it a bit. I suspect it's more that they need each other.
As far as smiley's go, I tend to ignore them. They annoy me. Either way, I wasn't attacking you on the comment, just adding my own.

I am sorry ... but where did I say Adama would have become Cain without Roslin?

In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that he would never have become Cain.

I don't recall saying you did. You did say that Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her the war was over. I took this to mean that you believed without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same as what Cain is doing.

[spg_1983]

Well you can argue that the civilian fleet would've been destroyed anyways. Her strategy is to destroy the Cylons, not run away like Adama is doing. She can't do that while protecting civilian ships at the same time. She probably figured that the civilian ships were doomed anyways, so why not take their parts so that Pegasus can have a better chance? Yeah, it's pretty damn heartless, but she's determine to destroy the Cylons no matter what.

If you think about it, her approach isn't much different than Adama's approach before Roslyn convinced him that they should run away instead of trying to fight. If Adama decided to continue fighting, he might not be in a much different place than Cain is right now. Granted, he wouldn't have sactioned group rape or shot his XO on the bridge, but he was just as angry and thirsty for Cylon blood and he was ready to do anything to destroy them whatever the cost.

Im not saying that isnt her strategy. I was respoding to a post that asked if she was really bad because she was doing whatever was neccesary to save the human race. She isn't trying to do that at all. Her only goal is to destroy as many cylons as she can before they take her out.

[Lightsabre]

Im not saying that isnt her strategy. I was respoding to a post that asked if she was really bad because she was doing whatever was neccesary to save the human race. She isn't trying to do that at all. Her only goal is to destroy as many cylons as she can before they take her out.

Exactly, Cain doesn't give a hoot about the human race.
How does she expect to retake Caprica and the other 11 planets with 1 ship?
And VERY finite crew, with no civilians to draw replacements from.
In stripping and abandoning that fleet, the only other humans she knew about, Cain effectively turned her back on humans as a species.

[Liebestraume]

I see your point, but I also think you are overstating it a bit. I suspect it's more that they need each other.
As far as smiley's go, I tend to ignore them. They annoy me. Either way, I wasn't attacking you on the comment, just adding my own.

No doubt they need each other, but why is stating one needing the other over-stating?

I didn't think you were attacking me -- after all, this is not about me -- but I thought, and still think, that you misconstrued my comments when adding your own. That was what I was addressing.

I don't recall saying you did. You did say that Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her the war was over. I took this to mean that you believed without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same as what Cain is doing.

Well, "Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her etc." does not necessarily lead to "without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same etc." Much in the same way that a necessary condition is not the same as a sufficient one.

In any case, I stand by the full body of the post. Feel free to infer from it anything you choose to.

[Lightsabre]

No doubt they need each other, but why is stating one needing the other over-stating?

I didn't think you were attacking me -- after all, this is not about me -- but I thought, and still think, that you misconstrued my comments when adding your own. That was what I was addressing.

Overstating? I meant simply that Adama can and does function on his own sans Roslin.
The sense I got from your post was that Adama would have been lost without her.
Hence, overstating. Roslin and Adama do need each other, but they could cope, were the other to die.
But this is really getting into minutae here. Let's just let this discussion over who said what and what it meant go.

Well, "Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her etc." does not necessarily lead to "without Roslin's influence, Adama would have done much the same etc." Much in the same way that a necessary condition is not the same as a sufficient one.

In any case, I stand by the full body of the post. Feel free to infer from it anything you choose to. [/COLOR]

Ok, actually, here I am going to disagree with you. IF you say, 'Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her, so that's how she got here' then you make Roslin's presence a key part of Adama NOT being in the same place Cain is.
So, that does mean that without Roslin, Adama would be cain-like.
No need to stand by your post, I never thought you meant to be insulting to the characters, simply presenting my opinions on your post.

[Liebestraume]

...The sense I got from your post was that Adama would have been lost without her.
Hence, overstating. ...

Then you were not paying close enough attention to what you read. Hence, misconstruing. But, let's heed your advice and ...

... just let this discussion over who said what and what it meant go.

Shall we?

Ok, actually, here I am going to disagree with you. IF you say, 'Cain didn't have a Roslin telling her, so that's how she got here' then you make Roslin's presence a key part of Adama NOT being in the same place Cain is. ...

But how are we to do that if you keep putting words in my mouth? It is quite clear that the "so ..." part (which I took the liberty to highlight) was never there in the first place.

That there is an awfully big "IF" -- and, if I may add, that big "IF" had already been vacated by the full body of the post (which was the reason for the "stand by" comment, btw). At the risk of repeating oneself, let me reiterate

...In fact, part of my point was that they have entirely different mindset. The logical conclusion would have been that [Adama] would never have become Cain.

Therefore, exactly on what were you disagreeing with me?

[MASON]

Further, this ep shows her to be a spoilt child, or to have that mentality. Adama defied her, she must kill him. And not only him, but his entire command crew.
Moreover, she punishes his son for planning and executing a reconnissance op, then rewards the pilot who flew it, citing skills, bravery and an ability to get the job done.

As they say in the British navy of olde, a good captain would never have these problems, everything in the captain's ship, in the admiral's fleet is under their own control, any insurrections are their own fault.

...Mutineers, however, were still punished with death.

Adama wouldn't have acted mutinously if Cain had been a good admiral.

[apollo123]

Im not saying that isnt her strategy. I was respoding to a post that asked if she was really bad because she was doing whatever was neccesary to save the human race. She isn't trying to do that at all. Her only goal is to destroy as many cylons as she can before they take her out.

No I actually think that she believes she can win the war with Pegasus, not simply take out as many cylons as she can, but to destroy them all. Then, the human race can continue with the people on Pegasus. Is it naive? Probably, but it was Adama's position at one point as well. He honestly thought that Galactica needed to stay and win the war by herself.

So from that standpoint, what do you do when you run across a helpless civilian ship? As harsh as it sounds, stripping it of valuable resources and taking along the most useful personnel would be the most effective military strategy. Otherwise, what do you do? Just leave it behind? It would be destroyed anyways. This way, at least Pegasus benefits and has a better fighting chance. Bring it along with you? Having to protect and support this other ship while your'e fighting cylons isn't going to win you many battles. The *only* other viable option is to do what Adama did - take it along with you and run away. Which again is not an option for Cain since she has already resolved that the only way to win the war and save humanity is to stay and fight.