Resurrection Ship, Part 1 (211)

[alaskannut]

Damn BSG is probably the best show on TV, i

Which is probably why TIME magazine just declared the best TV show of 2005

That said, I must say WOW!! This ep fracking rocked! BSG just keeps getting better and better.

[GALACTIC MYTH]

I'd actually suspect they developed the Blackbirds FTL capabilities not from a Viper at all, but from a Raptor. As we don't know what all is involved in FTL drives (outside requiring Tylium as a fuel source) we have no idea on the size of a small FTL drive. I would suspect it has to do with some kind of mass/jump ratio. IE the bigger the ship, the bigger the FTL has to be. The Blackbird is a small ship that has room for 1 occupant, doesn't appear to have major weapons capability like the fast and nasty Vipers, so doesn't need a jump drive the size of the Raptor. In addition, regular maintenance on Raptors would mean that Tyrol and his deck gang understand the inner and outer workings of FTL drives, so putting one on the Blackbird is well within the realms of believability. The Blackbird has no armor to protect it in combat, and I suspect that what few weapons are on the ship are for a very quick hit and run attack and an even quicker escape, like the mission planned for taking out the Resurrection ship. Less room for weapons = more room for an FTL drive.

Remember that Vipers were made for close combat support. They need what little room they have on their ships for carrying as much ordinance and ammo as possible, not for FTL. In regards to the cylon raiders having jump capabilities, cylons obviously are far more technologically advanced, the ships are small (small ship, small ftl drive) and they don't seem to have a 'scout class' like the Raptors in their fleet. All of the Cylon raiders are scouts. Thus, all have FTL.

Good point and it is beleivable. As I was reading this though I remembered an ep. from season 2 (Flight of the Pheonex??) where a cyon rader is playing with BSG pretending that it can't use its FTL and is actually downloading the video images that Sharon is still alive and pregnant. Then Kara and Tyrol are doing FTL testing on it though a rader and downloading everything they can to see how they were able to have ammo, guns, and an FTL in one ship and its functions (I believe, can't remember exactly Y they ran the tests.)

I used this and maybe that is how they were able to construct an FTL for the Blackbird. I am not saying at all that your theory isn't true and not trying to attack you in anyway, I am just adding to it with my own opinion, tell me what you think.

[spg_1983]

I'd actually suspect they developed the Blackbirds FTL capabilities not from a Viper at all, but from a Raptor. As we don't know what all is involved in FTL drives (outside requiring Tylium as a fuel source) we have no idea on the size of a small FTL drive. I would suspect it has to do with some kind of mass/jump ratio. IE the bigger the ship, the bigger the FTL has to be. The Blackbird is a small ship that has room for 1 occupant, doesn't appear to have major weapons capability like the fast and nasty Vipers, so doesn't need a jump drive the size of the Raptor. In addition, regular maintenance on Raptors would mean that Tyrol and his deck gang understand the inner and outer workings of FTL drives, so putting one on the Blackbird is well within the realms of believability. The Blackbird has no armor to protect it in combat, and I suspect that what few weapons are on the ship are for a very quick hit and run attack and an even quicker escape, like the mission planned for taking out the Resurrection ship. Less room for weapons = more room for an FTL drive.

Remember that Vipers were made for close combat support. They need what little room they have on their ships for carrying as much ordinance and ammo as possible, not for FTL. In regards to the cylon raiders having jump capabilities, cylons obviously are far more technologically advanced, the ships are small (small ship, small ftl drive) and they don't seem to have a 'scout class' like the Raptors in their fleet. All of the Cylon raiders are scouts. Thus, all have FTL.

Oh I agree, I wasnt saying that there was an inconsistency, I was just pointing out that Vipers don't have FTL. It makes sense for The Laura to have FTL because what good is a stealth ship of it has to be launched from a mothersip that is close by. The raptors are not that much bigger really than a Viper, the Viper is just more compact and designed to be sleeker. The Raptor has a much larger inside area to accomadate the EW station and passengers, but the actual mass of both ships is probably close to the same. If the raptor can have FTL a Viper could to, if like you said they made room by taking away its weapons and ammo.

[GALACTIC MYTH]

Oh I agree, I wasnt saying that there was an inconsistency, I was just pointing out that Vipers don't have FTL. It makes sense for The Laura to have FTL because what good is a stealth ship of it has to be launched from a mothersip that is close by. The raptors are not that much bigger really than a Viper, the Viper is just more compact and designed to be sleeker. The Raptor has a much larger inside area to accomadate the EW station and passengers, but the actual mass of both ships is probably close to the same. If the raptor can have FTL a Viper could to, if like you said they made room by taking away its weapons and ammo.

I do agree with the both of you I just wanted to add another possiblilty into the mix but the both of you guys (Speakfire & spg_1983) seem right on target (for nowuntil more is reveled) so I'll stay with your guys theory, because it makes alot of sence.

[Speakfire]

I feel attacked!!... j/k hehe

I am not really sure why that one cylon raider seemed to toy with the colonials by jumping in and out, given Tyrol and crew time to study its FTL systems and capabilities. They say it was collecting data before it went on it's suicide run toward the BSG, but they aren't sure what data it was collecting before it was destroyed (or what data that it would have transmitted to the Cylons, for that matter).

Regarding getting images of Sharon and her baby being alive and well, I wonder if you may be getting two different episodes confused, in the episode Final Cut, 2 raiders jumped in and were able to transmit images of Sharon to the other cylons with the help of De'anna (Or however you spell it).

You're right though I think a viper could definitely be stripped down and have an FTL drive put into it, but to me it'd still be outdone on all levels by the Raptor, which has the ECO station and lots more data-collecting capabilities. Anyway right now they need vipers (and viper parts) to help protect the fleet.

Annnnywho. So back to the episode at hand... I'm dying to see how the whole fight plays out with the decoys and the Blackbird going in to take out the Resurrection ship and everything else. One more day!

[apollo123]

actually I can say it wasn't a good strategic move. Her entire plan is poor strategy. One single ship, even with lots of spare parts, doesn't stand a chance. The fact that she would embark on this course shows that she has cracked.

Wow ok i just realized it's really difficult to have an argument within a forum.

Ok, so let's get this straight. I'm not trying to defend her actions. I think she's just as crazy and immoral as everyone else does.

I am merely speaking about her strategy for staying and fighting. I don't care whether or not staying and fighting is a good strategy. In fact, I know that it's not a sane strategy because like Roslyn told Adama, the war is over and they need to run and repopulate the human race. I agree completely with that logic.

The only point that I'm trying to get across is whether or not stripping the civilian ship was a good strategy given the fact that they are staying and fighting. So given that (yes insane) mission, stripping the civilian was probably the best possible move.

I think people are just too quick to write her off as a complete madwoman. Is she mad? Yes, she is. But I think there's logic behind her madness.

[apollo123]

But by killing the people she's ostensibly winning the colonies back for?
If that sounds like a good and rational argument to her, then I'd suggest she's lost it.
Also, Pegasus CANNOT win alone.It needs support,. It needs to be resupplied, and often. Galactica is resupplied by refinery and food ships in the colonial fleet.
Pegasus, by abandoning them, has NO guarantee of resupply when it needs it.
If Cain's goal is to win back the colonies, then she should have kept the ships to resupply Pegasus.

You've forgotten the fact that Adama is trying to run away from the Cylons, not confront them. They jump everytime the Cylons come near them while Cain fights them head on. So yes keeping civilian ships around helps Galactica, but it would only hinder Pegasus' mission.

But, to me, given, as I and others have said, her first duty a military officer was protection of civilians, she should have revised her decision to fight to the death.
That she didn't means she is giving up the principles she claims to hold dear.
Same with her treatment of Roslin.

See my other response. But yes, I agree with you that she's not a nice person and that she should revised her decision to fight to the death. That's not my argument, never was. Also, this is not really relevant either, but I don't recall the show ever stating what "the first duty of a military officer" is or what "principles Cain holds dear".

[GALACTIC MYTH]

Ok this thing with Cain, was it a good logical action to strip the ships for supplies? Yes, if she was going to come back and check on the civilian fleet and protect them.

But since Cain killed 2 families (wich implies children) to force whoever wouldn't come with the fleet then did, makes her no better then the cylons they are the same. Also Cain wants to go back to Capricca to help the human race, why would she want to start populating the colonies when she kills families. Please explain this to me.

Oh just a random statement "I have to wait until Monday to see part 2" so note spoilers if you've seen it and are still posting here. Please....

[spg_1983]

Wow ok i just realized it's really difficult to have an argument within a forum.

Ok, so let's get this straight. I'm not trying to defend her actions. I think she's just as crazy and immoral as everyone else does.

I am merely speaking about her strategy for staying and fighting. I don't care whether or not staying and fighting is a good strategy. In fact, I know that it's not a sane strategy because like Roslyn told Adama, the war is over and they need to run and repopulate the human race. I agree completely with that logic.

The only point that I'm trying to get across is whether or not stripping the civilian ship was a good strategy given the fact that they are staying and fighting. So given that (yes insane) mission, stripping the civilian was probably the best possible move.

I think people are just too quick to write her off as a complete madwoman. Is she mad? Yes, she is. But I think there's logic behind her madness.

yes i get what you are saying, but even in that context of the stratedgy of staying and fighting, stripping the civilian fleet and leaving them was still poor stratedgy. Basiclly she just put all her eggs in one basket that doesnt have a chance in hell of succeeding in its mission. She is incredibly out numbered and even being civilians those were potential reinforcements. Lets say she hadnt met up with Galactica and Co. She begins her hit and run war against the cylons. She causes some damage each time but at the same time she is going to be taking damage. And losing crew members. All her spare parts are stored on board, she has no safe haven to retreat to to lick her wounds. How long would she have to stop and repair after a battle before the cylons follow if they dont have a secure base? Each time the ship is damaged it is going to consume spare parts, and plus there is also the possibility of losing spare parts from damage incurred to the ship during fights. Before long, even if they manage to get away each time the ship is going to be less and less operative as the crew dimishes. Eventually it will reach the point where the ship will be unable to continue and the cylons will destroy them.

Now a viable stratedgy for her chosen course of action would be very different. You don't abandon the civillian fleet, you escort them someplace safe and secure to establish a base from which to mount your guerilla war. You conscript civillians into service and leave some trained officers at the base to run things and teach the civillians. If possible you find another depot like Ragnar and raid it. Convert the civillian ships or just augment them to make them better (Fisk did say that some of the civilian ships were armed and they stripped the weapons from them). Your base starts re-establishing a tech base to work with and if the location was chosen properly starts harvesting raw materials. You conduct a snatch and grab campaign on shipyards and refineries and such to gather technological assest to further establish a tech base. You scout the 12 colonies and get a feel for the cylons deployment and what assets are intact. Then you conduct your campaign of attacks. Thats what a stratedgy is. Cain has no stratedgy, she just wants to fight and kill.

[Lightsabre]

yes i get what you are saying, but even in that context of the stratedgy of staying and fighting, stripping the civilian fleet and leaving them was still poor stratedgy. Basiclly she just put all her eggs in one basket that doesnt have a chance in hell of succeeding in its mission. She is incredibly out numbered and even being civilians those were potential reinforcements. Lets say she hadnt met up with Galactica and Co. She begins her hit and run war against the cylons. She causes some damage each time but at the same time she is going to be taking damage. And losing crew members. All her spare parts are stored on board, she has no safe haven to retreat to to lick her wounds. How long would she have to stop and repair after a battle before the cylons follow if they dont have a secure base? Each time the ship is damaged it is going to consume spare parts, and plus there is also the possibility of losing spare parts from damage incurred to the ship during fights. Before long, even if they manage to get away each time the ship is going to be less and less operative as the crew dimishes. Eventually it will reach the point where the ship will be unable to continue and the cylons will destroy them.

Exactly. Further, each time Cain suffers a loss in crew(and remember, she's got a mad on for executing people), she loses one of the people Apollo123 suggested could be used to start a new colony. In terms of that, each loss of life is far more damning than simply loss of a trained, skilled crew member.

Further, Cain had no knowledge of the survivors on Caprica before her encounter with the fleet. She thought all she had was on Pegasus.
That means her stated goal of recapturing the colonies was a lie.
She may win(very very unlikely) but humans would be dead either way.

Now a viable stratedgy for her chosen course of action would be very different. You don't abandon the civillian fleet, you escort them someplace safe and secure to establish a base from which to mount your guerilla war. You conscript civillians into service and leave some trained officers at the base to run things and teach the civillians. If possible you find another depot like Ragnar and raid it. Convert the civillian ships or just augment them to make them better (Fisk did say that some of the civilian ships were armed and they stripped the weapons from them). Your base starts re-establishing a tech base to work with and if the location was chosen properly starts harvesting raw materials. You conduct a snatch and grab campaign on shipyards and refineries and such to gather technological assest to further establish a tech base. You scout the 12 colonies and get a feel for the cylons deployment and what assets are intact. Then you conduct your campaign of attacks. Thats what a stratedgy is. Cain has no stratedgy, she just wants to fight and kill.

Agreed. Cain just wants to go out in a blaze of glory.

[Lightsabre]

You've forgotten the fact that Adama is trying to run away from the Cylons, not confront them. They jump everytime the Cylons come near them while Cain fights them head on. So yes keeping civilian ships around helps Galactica, but it would only hinder Pegasus' mission.

No. actually I haven't.
And are you really trying to maintain that having a ready, portable source of food, fuel and ammo would be a hinderance to a ship fighting a guerilla war??
By keeping the ships, esp the families, Cain would not only gain the skills of the experts she needed, but give them more incentive to do their very best, as they would be saving their families.
At the moment, they KNOW their families are dead. Where's the incentive to do your best, to be inovative and creative?

See my other response. But yes, I agree with you that she's not a nice person and that she should revised her decision to fight to the death. That's not my argument, never was. Also, this is not really relevant either, but I don't recall the show ever stating what "the first duty of a military officer" is or what "principles Cain holds dear".

No, the show doesn't ever state the duties of an officer.
Militaries exist to protect civillians and my comments are made with that in mind.
As to Cain's principles, that's my interpretation of her. I'm making assumptions, using guesswork and such.
But if you want to say 'oh that's wrong cause it's never said in the show', well neither is a lot of what you are saying.

[apollo123]

No, the show doesn't ever state the duties of an officer.
Militaries exist to protect civillians and my comments are made with that in mind.
As to Cain's principles, that's my interpretation of her. I'm making assumptions, using guesswork and such.
But if you want to say 'oh that's wrong cause it's never said in the show', well neither is a lot of what you are saying.

The only thing that I'm saying is that stripping the civilian ships is a good strategic move for winning the war with the cylons. The show has established the fact that Cain wants to win the war with the cylons. I don't think i'm making a misinterpretation about that.

However, you're talking about morality and duty, which is a completely different thing. And you're using your own interpretations of their code of morality and conduct to prove your arguments. Two different things.

[spg_1983]

The only thing that I'm saying is that stripping the civilian ships is a good strategic move for winning the war with the cylons. The show has established the fact that Cain wants to win the war with the cylons. I don't think i'm making a misinterpretation about that.

However, you're talking about morality and duty, which is a completely different thing. And you're using your own interpretations of their code of morality and conduct to prove your arguments. Two different things.

No, see it isn't a good strategic move at all if her goal is to win the war with the cylons. It is a good move if yout strategy is to have no strategy and just cause as much destruction as possible before you are destroyed yourself. Thats the whole point of Cain's madness. She says she wants to win the war but she knows she can't, thats what made her mind snap. The fact that she survived with her ship intact, yet she failed in her duty to protect the colonies and she knows deep down that there is no hope to actually defeat the cylons and take back the colonies. This realization caused her mind to break and insanity has taken over. She hides her madness by saying she wants to take back the colonies, but in fact she just wants to cause pain and destruction and then die herself. There is no strategic value to be gained by slaughtering those civilians like that, but there is lots of strategic value in saving them, whether she intended to take back the colonies or not. Either way stripping them like that and leaving them to die was not a strategic move at all, it was pure madness.

[Lightsabre]

The only thing that I'm saying is that stripping the civilian ships is a good strategic move for winning the war with the cylons. The show has established the fact that Cain wants to win the war with the cylons. I don't think i'm making a misinterpretation about that.

But the thing is, you haven't given any evidence to show this.
It allows Cain to resupply?
Keeping them allows Cain to resupply more than once.
It was a bad strategic move, for winning a war, because you cannot win a war with one ship, especially one that is outclassed.

However, you're talking about morality and duty, which is a completely different thing. And you're using your own interpretations of their code of morality and conduct to prove your arguments. Two different things.

I think Duty, esp is relevant here. Duty impacts on tactics and strategy, in that some actions may be the best strategic idea, but not allowed by duty
You are right tho, in that I'm using my interpretation of things from the show, to back my arguments.
While I still maintain those are the most likely, I cannot back that up 100%

[Orion's Star]

I think Apollo has made it clear throughout the run of the show that the duty of a Colonial military officer is to protect the Constitution.