Pegasus (210)

[Craig Ranapia]

There was no such dialogue. If Cain was promoted after Nagala died Adama should not have known her rank was admiral.

I'm pretty sure there's a bit of Basil Exposition dialogue where Adama tells Roslin that Cain was promoted to admiral a matter of months before before the attack, so it's hardly surprising she has no idea who Cain is. I could be entirely wrong, because I don't have my tapes of 'Pegasus' or 'Resurrection Ship' at the moment. My point is that she wasn't the highest ranking officer in the Colonial Military before the attack, so I don't see where the frack her condescending attitude towards Laura Roslin comes from - unless it's her own insecurities finding a safe outlet, or seeking to intimidate a potential threat to her authority.

Cain is qualified for her rank. Roslin in not qualified but was thrust with the office of President.

So, the military get to pick and choose when they decide to recognise the President? There's a couple of words for that: Fascist military dictatorship. As I've said before, and you've failed to rebutt, Laura Roslin followed the 'Case Orange' disaster protocols in the mini-series in the presence of independent witnesses. She was confirmed as the senior surviving member in the chain of succession, and was duly sworn in as President. Helena Cain doesn't like it? Tough - Roslin's position is every bit as legitimate as Cain's. And let's remember another thing: Adama surrenders command of the fleet to a superior officer, not because he necessarily agrees with or even likes the woman. But he is a military officer who respects the chain of command, just as (apart from the most obvious deviation) he respects the concept of the military being the servant of the people, and their elected representatives, not their master. He'll argue with Roslin - try to change her mind - but ultimately respect her calls where the civilian fleet is concerned because they're hers to make. And I think that respect goes both ways, because both Roslin and Adama have built a relationship of trust and mutual respect in the face of considerable obstacles.

Now, I'm

[SemperFidelis]

Tighter discipline would keep things on a better footing in the short term, but no one can live like that forever and stay sane and balanced. How many people on Cain's crew have gone a bit off the rails? I bet that there have been a few, and I bet they're dead - shot in the head? That's going to be a powerful incentive for the rest to stay under discipline, but to what end? To turn into automatons and zombies with no human feelings. Better to become cylons!

The whole point of the military is to be disciplined. Those people who devote their whole career to the armed forces are able to maintain discipline far longer and effectively than you or I could. The Galactica officers may have lost their letters from home, but the have the greatest motivation of all to maintain the survival of the human race.

Which brings me to the treatment of the cylon prisoners. 'You can't rape a toaster, so it wasn't rape' is no argument. A toaster can't beg you to stop. A toaster doesn't weep afterwards. Even if you are able to totally discount the cylon womens' feeling as immaterial because they aren't human so they don't matter (I can't feel that way, but if others can so be it), what does it do to a man to forcibly penetrate a thing that resembles a woman in every way, right down to the pleading and the struggling and the desperation a woman would show when being raped?

I agree that the actions of Lt. Thorne and others were wrong and reprehensible, but their actions were not in any way illegal. You mention the emotions of the cylon woman. Where were those emotions when a cylon snapped the neck of a baby? Where were those emotions when the cylons committed genocide? They only feel emotions when their own well being is at stake. I cannot in any way equate the human looking cylons to a real human. Having just watched Resurrection Ship part 1 & 2, I have found a kindred in the Pegasus colonel. He agreed with me that you cannot rape a machine.

[SemperFidelis]

I'm pretty sure there's a bit of Basil Exposition dialogue where Adama tells Roslin that Cain was promoted to admiral a matter of months before before the attack, so it's hardly surprising she has no idea who Cain is. I could be entirely wrong, because I don't have my tapes of 'Pegasus' or 'Resurrection Ship' at the moment. My point is that she wasn't the highest ranking officer in the Colonial Military before the attack, so I don't see where the frack her condescending attitude towards Laura Roslin comes from - unless it's her own insecurities finding a safe outlet, or seeking to intimidate a potential threat to her authority.

I have just watched both parts of Resurrection Ship and no where was it stated that Cain was promoted shortly before the cylon attack. But irrespective of that, you seem to defeat your own argument. Cain was not the highest ranking colonial officer before the attack but she was after the attack.

So, the military get to pick and choose when they decide to recognise the President? There's a couple of words for that: Fascist military dictatorship. As I've said before, and you've failed to rebutt, Laura Roslin followed the 'Case Orange' disaster protocols in the mini-series in the presence of independent witnesses. She was confirmed as the senior surviving member in the chain of succession, and was duly sworn in as President.

Yes under the case Orange protocol, Roslin as the only surviving government official would be President. But my point is: Is she qualified to be President? I haven't seen anything that makes me believe she is qualified to be President. She is not competent enough to entrust the survival of the human race to. She broke away from the Galactica and took civilian ships to Kobol. A planet that the cylons knew about and had a base ship guarding. It was pure luck that a cylon fleet didn't jump in and destroy them. There aren't enough survivors to play russian roulette with. You do not take risks like that.

Having now seen Resurrection Ship part 1 & 2 I can say that the writers do like a Quandary of Quagmire. Cain could be prosecuted for crimes against humanity but I still maintain she is the better leader, although she did reward indiscipline by promoting Starbuck. In fact I felt proud of her when she decided not to order Adama's death. Although I expected Adama to back down I thought she would go ahead with the plan as She doesn't tolerate mutiny.

As I see it there were two issues that brought Adama and Cain to gunpoint. First, the personnel transfers and second the arrest and sentencing of two of his officers. Looking back with hindsight the better thing to do would have been to swap CAGs only and order a prisoner transfer so Boomer was on Pegasus. That way the mutinous Lee would be under her supervision and away from his father and the Pegasus CAG may have made Starbuck more disciplined (I can hope). Also she should be able to convince Adama that two of his crew cannot be relied upon when it comes to Boomer, so it is better to keep her separate from them. If this happened Helo & Tyrol would not have been able to kill Lt. Thorne.

[Craig Ranapia]

I have just watched both parts of Resurrection Ship and no where was it stated that Cain was promoted shortly before the cylon attack. But irrespective of that, you seem to defeat your own argument. Cain was not the highest ranking colonial officer before the attack but she was after the attack.

OK, I've done a bit of research and it's in a deleted scene that (I understand) will be included in the DVD 'extended cut'. But I think we're really talking past each other - I'd just suggest that Cain should drop the attitude towards Roslin because she's hardly been an Admiral since the Cylon Wars.

Yes under the case Orange protocol, Roslin as the only surviving government official would be President. But my point is: Is she qualified to be President?

Again, entirely beside the point - she is the President. Helena Cain doesn't get to decide who is "fit" to be President or not except in the same way as every other adult Colonial citizen. They're called elections. But while we're asking the question, why would Roslin - or any other civilian trust Cain with their lives? Based on previous form, they're dead the minute she had a full load of 'selectees' and strips the fleet of food, medical supplies and parts.

Having now seen Resurrection Ship part 1 & 2 I can say that the writers do like a Quandary of Quagmire. Cain could be prosecuted for crimes against humanity but I still maintain she is the better leader...

Well, I'll just say I don't respect the leadership style of murderers and war criminals and leave it at that.

As I see it there were two issues that brought Adama and Cain to gunpoint. First, the personnel transfers and second the arrest and sentencing of two of his officers. Looking back with hindsight the better thing to do would have been to swap CAGs only and order a prisoner transfer so Boomer was on Pegasus. That way the mutinous Lee would be under her supervision and away from his father and the Pegasus CAG may have made Starbuck more disciplined (I can hope). Also she should be able to convince Adama that two of his crew cannot be relied upon when it comes to Boomer, so it is better to keep her separate from them. If this happened Helo & Tyrol would not have been able to kill Lt. Thorne.

So, let's review: I find it beyond credible that Cain wasn't perfectly well aware that a senior officer was "interrogating" Gina with his penis, and arranging recreational gang-bangs for the crew. Do you think the whole problem might have been avoided if she wasn't willing to condone rape aboard her ship?

[SemperFidelis]

So, let's review: I find it beyond credible that Cain wasn't perfectly well aware that a senior officer was "interrogating" Gina with his penis, and arranging recreational gang-bangs for the crew. Do you think the whole problem might have been avoided if she wasn't willing to condone rape aboard her ship?

You already know that you cannot rape a machine. My point is if Boomer wasn't on Galactica but on Pegasus and Helo and Tyrol were refused access to her then the circumstances which led to the two ships being at gunpoint would not arise.

[beale947]

Rape is forced sex with some one, or sex with no consent by the other person, no matter human or machine you still cannot justify it

[Craig Ranapia]

You already know that you cannot rape a machine. My point is if Boomer wasn't on Galactica but on Pegasus and Helo and Tyrol were refused access to her then the circumstances which led to the two ships being at gunpoint would not arise.

And you know that Thorne (and his gang-bang buddies) would have kept his dick in his pants if 'Gina' looked like a centurion rather than a tall, leggy blonde woman, so I guess (like the late Lt. Thorne and Admiral Cain) you can keep dancing on whatever pin head gets you through the night.

[Madeleine]

The whole point of the military is to be disciplined.

That's what Cain seems to think. The actions she took to get her full complement of crew (see ep 211)certainly speak to that. But Adama seems to think that the whole point of the military is to protect the civillian population. I'm with Adama.

I agree that the actions of Lt. Thorne and others were wrong and reprehensible, but their actions were not in any way illegal. You mention the emotions of the cylon woman. Where were those emotions when a cylon snapped the neck of a baby? Where were those emotions when the cylons committed genocide?

Substitute 'cylon' for 'Japanese' and 'snapped the neck of a baby' for 'ordered the rape of Nanking' and you'll see why I can't agree with you. *A* cylon killed a baby. *Some* cylons committed genocide. Did this particular cylon? No. She's a prisoner of war confined to a cell, perhaps for the rest of her life. That's unavoidable - the Galactica has to consider her hostile. But can she be treated as complicit in the acts of the other cylons? We just don't know. The humane thing to do is to give the benefit of the doubt.

And if you're having sex with a sentient being and that being is begging you to stop, you're raping them.

[Craig Ranapia]

That's what Cain seems to think. The actions she took to get her full complement of crew (see ep 211)certainly speak to that. But Adama seems to think that the whole point of the military is to protect the civilian population. I'm with Adama.

Indeed. There's a deleted scene from '33' on my box set, but not the Sci-Fi website oddly enough, where Roslin tells Adama that one of the civilian ships wants to break off from the fleet, and she (being well aware that numbers are critical if the human race isn't going to die out) wants Adama to send in the Marines to prevent them from doing so, as negotiations have failed. He reminds her that putting an armed boarding party that hasn't slept for five days on a ship full of panicked civilians might end up badly for all concerned...
"It's not a good time to start shooting civilians," he says - though he often has reason to want to, starting with the President.

Substitute 'cylon' for 'Japanese' and 'snapped the neck of a baby' for 'ordered the rape of Nanking' and you'll see why I can't agree with you. *A* cylon killed a baby. *Some* cylons committed genocide. Did this particular cylon? No. She's a prisoner of war confined to a cell, perhaps for the rest of her life. That's unavoidable - the Galactica has to consider her hostile. But can she be treated as complicit in the acts of the other cylons? We just don't know. The humane thing to do is to give the benefit of the doubt.

Well, let's turn that around, and remember Adama's speech at the ceremony in the mini-series:

You know when we fought the Cylon's, we did it to save ourselves from extinction. But we never answered the question: 'Why?'. Why are we as a people worth saving. We still commit murder because of greed, spite, jealousy, and we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept responsibility for anything that we've done. Like we did with the Cylon's. We decided to play god. Create life. When that life turned against us... we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really.

You cannot play god then wash your hand's of the things that you've . Sooner of later, the day comes when you can't hide, from the thing's that you've done, anymore.

Iin Resurrection Ship Part 1, Caprica-Boomer gives Adama the Cylon answer:

Adama: Sit down. I've asked you here to find out why the cylons hate us so much.

Boomer: I'm not sure I know how to answer that. I mean, hate might not be the right word.

Adama: I don't want to fence with you. I just want to know why.

Boomer: It's what you said at the ceremony before the attack when Galactica was being decommissioned. You gave a speech that sounded like it wasn't the one you prepared. You said that humanity was a flawed creation. And that people still kill one another for petty jealousy and greed. You said that humanity never asked itself why it deserved to survive. Maybe you don't.

Not such a nice chain of reasoning coming from a machine, is it? Of course, The Cylon prefer to "rape" women by handing them over to Simon The CyMengele in the 'Farms", but why should they care any more about their victims than Cain does about her captive. The human race gave up it's right to exist the moment they turned their back on God. This is war, those women are the enemy. They deserve no more consideration than a lab rat.

[SemperFidelis]

And you know that Thorne (and his gang-bang buddies) would have kept his dick in his pants if 'Gina' looked like a centurion rather than a tall, leggy blonde woman, so I guess (like the late Lt. Thorne and Admiral Cain) you can keep dancing on whatever pin head gets you through the night.

I do not quite understand the expression "pin head". Are you trying to insult me? If so, can I suggest you grow up and accept that people have different views to yours and if you cannot cope with that then you should not get into a discussion. If what you said was not an insult then I apologise.

[SemperFidelis]

That's what Cain seems to think. The actions she took to get her full complement of crew (see ep 211)certainly speak to that. But Adama seems to think that the whole point of the military is to protect the civillian population. I'm with Adama.

I agree that the objective of the military is to protect civilians. But there
was an objective difference between Adama and Cain. Adama was running away to Earth and maintained the hope that the human civilisation would thrive again. Cain had been in the midst of civilisation's end, rather than at some decommissioning ceremony which the cylons ignored, and her only objective was to hurt the cylons. With that objective I can understand why she took the actions she did. But I think Cain was coming around to Adama's hopeful way of thinking, which is why she didn't order his death in the end.

Substitute 'cylon' for 'Japanese' and 'snapped the neck of a baby' for 'ordered the rape of Nanking' and you'll see why I can't agree with you. *A* cylon killed a baby. *Some* cylons committed genocide. Did this particular cylon? No. She's a prisoner of war confined to a cell, perhaps for the rest of her life. That's unavoidable - the Galactica has to consider her hostile. But can she be treated as complicit in the acts of the other cylons? We just don't know. The humane thing to do is to give the benefit of the doubt.

And if you're having sex with a sentient being and that being is begging you to stop, you're raping them.

Gina was on Pegasus on some mission. She clearly stated that to Baltar. It stands to reason that she was directly complicit in genocide. Even if her mission was a failure as she was caught, she attempted to assist genocide and in law an attempt is punishable in the same way as the completed offence, as is aiding an offence. She has directly been involved in genocide. Also when a cylon dies their cognitive programme is downloaded to a new body. In those circumstances you cannot claim Gina is an innocent individual. She may be the same cognitive programme that killed that colonial officer and destroyed that truce station in the beginning of the mini-series. Giving a cylon the benefit of the doubt could endanger the surviving human race. I would never take that risk. I am also not convinced that the cylons are sentient. Not when they have this downloading of cognitive programming, but I do not want to open Pandora's Box in this matter. An animal is sentient yet you cannot rape an animal. Rather it is called beastiality. Rape laws as they exist at the moment could not apply to a cylon and I am not inclined to extend them to the cylons.

[SemperFidelis]

Rape is forced sex with some one, or sex with no consent by the other person, no matter human or machine you still cannot justify it

Legally rape is intercourse where one party does not consent. It does not have to be violent it could merely be engaging in intercourse and not making sure that the other person is consenting. Now, lets say I made a machine that looks and feels like a human woman. The sole purpose of the machine is to satisfy my sexual needs and the machines programming does not allow it to refuse me. There is clearly no consent because the machine has no capacity to give consent. However, you cannot say I raped a machine. Remember the episode where the Blackbird was built. Boomer stuck some interface into her arm and gave a virus to the attacking cylon fleet. If I was able to hack into the cylon programming and turn it into a sexual pleasure device there would be no begging and pleading, and then you probably would have no problems with it then. You cannot compare a cylon to a human.

[beale947]

Legally rape is intercourse where one party does not consent. It does not have to be violent it could merely be engaging in intercourse and not making sure that the other person is consenting. Now, lets say I made a machine that looks and feels like a human woman. The sole purpose of the machine is to satisfy my sexual needs and the machines programming does not allow it to refuse me. There is clearly no consent because the machine has no capacity to give consent. However, you cannot say I raped a machine. Remember the episode where the Blackbird was built. Boomer stuck some interface into her arm and gave a virus to the attacking cylon fleet. If I was able to hack into the cylon programming and turn it into a sexual pleasure device there would be no begging and pleading, and then you probably would have no problems with it then. You cannot compare a cylon to a human.

But you can compare them, the human form ones were built to 'be' human.

And Gina did not consent, so it is still rape, and if anyone is sick enough to rape (in general), deserves a painful death because why would you, and Gina may have been like boomer, not knowing she was a cylon, and it isn't her fault, so it is still not right to say 'its just a machine', i could say, 'your just human' what then?? Does that make it right?

[SemperFidelis]

But you can compare them, the human form ones were built to 'be' human.

And Gina did not consent, so it is still rape, and if anyone is sick enough to rape (in general), deserves a painful death because why would you, and Gina may have been like boomer, not knowing she was a cylon, and it isn't her fault, so it is still not right to say 'its just a machine', i could say, 'your just human' what then?? Does that make it right?

I obviously disagree. The human looking cylons were made to look like humans. But I am not convinced that a machine can ever comprehend what it means to be human. Also how many humans do you know that could open up their arm and plug in some computer interface and spread a virus? How many humans can download their intelligence to another body after their death? Also the Cylons have some sort of Borg collective thing going. Because their was a Boomer on Caprica and simultaneously their was a Boomer on Galactica. Yet Helo asked the Caprica Boomer if she remembered being with the Chief and Caprica Boomer admitted it. You cannot compare the human looking cylons to a real human.

In respect of the sexual acts, you haven't really stated your opinion on the scenario where I hack into the cylon programming and alter it to be my sex slave. Would you call that rape? Gina knew she was a cylon. She had a mission on Pegasus, which she admitted to Baltar. Also, I have no problem in someone saying to me "you're just human", because I am.

It appears that we will not agree whether sexual acts on a cylon is rape or not. But despite me being in the minority to say its not, no one has been able to convince me otherwise. The arguments used to justify the labelling of rape have always had too many holes in them for me. However, I would like to make one final argument to show their is a distinction between a cylon and a human: Lets say that Pegasus captured a cylon centurion and had removed any weapons built in from it. Now lets assume the centurion has an orifice large enough for Lt. Thorne to penetrate. Let us also assume that Lt. Thorne is a psychopath and actually does penetrate the Centurion. If you are consistent in your belief then you would call that rape also. Although I do not agree with that sentiment I respect your belief. However, if you deem that Thorne penetrating a centurion is not rape, I must ask why? Both the human looking ones and the centurions are cylons. Why is the centurion getting discriminated against? Perhaps that may enable you to better understand my point of view. With that I think it is time for me to let this issue rest.

[Madeleine]

Gina was on Pegasus on some mission. She clearly stated that to Baltar. It stands to reason that she was directly complicit in genocide... In those circumstances you cannot claim Gina is an innocent individual.

I was talking about Sharon. Sharon hadn't, as far as we know, been on any mission other than to befriend Helo. She had assisted the humans against the cylons. She may not have been an 'innocent individual' entirely, but Sharon certainly didn't deserve to be raped (or whatever you call it when a non-human is being held down for sex while begging her captors not to) and she certainly does should not be held responsible for every action of every other cylon in existence.

Giving a cylon the benefit of the doubt could endanger the surviving human race.

No it couldn't, not the sort of benefit of the doubt I'm talking about. I'm not saying "she says she's good, lets believe her and give her the freedom of the ship and a security clearance and a pat on the head". I'm not advocating ceasing to treat her as a prisoner.

I'm talking about giving her the benefit of the doubt over the sentience thing, over the feelings, over her 'humanity'. I'm talking about accepting that although we don't actually *know* that she has genuine sentience and feelings like a human does, she may well have; and if she does it's incumbent on us to treat her as well as we would treat any human (enemy/traitorous) prisoner. Like the doctor does, like Adama does. Keep her restrained, but treat her as a prisoner of war. Not as a piece of captured hardware / toy.

And I think that NOT giving her the benefit of the doubt could be far more dangerous. Sharon's aware that no one on the Galactica trusts her, but she can see that she's being as well-treated as a cylon could expect to be under the circumstances, and she hasn't been abused by the Galactica people, so she has helped them at times. I doubt she would have done that if they'd beaten or raped her (or 'forced her to have sex with them despite her struggle and protest', if the word 'rape' isn't acceptable).

Do you think Six would have been so obliging, if a massive fleet of cylon raiders had appeared out of nowhere to take advantage of a virus on the Pegasus? Sharon was given the benefit of the doubt and treated as a human enemy/traitor would be. She has since proved an asset to the Galactica.

Many times in human history there have been instances of people excusing awful acts by saying that the victims aren't like them; aren't proper humans; don't have real feelings like normal people; don't have souls. Whatever. In each case, the people doing the awful things genuinely believed in the inferiority of the victims, and had no real way of knowing that they were falsehoods. I say: better safe than sorry. Since it is potentially deeply immoral to treat Sharon as a sex toy, and since treating her as a human can have visible tactical benefits, lets not let Thorne go raping her, eh?