Pegasus (210)

[beale947]

ok im in England and i just watched Pegasus, and all i can say is well done Adama for sticking up for his crew, kick there asses, and if i was adama, i would open all guns and missles and fire everything at the pegasus, just to prove im not fraking about

[SemperFidelis]

I'm in England and saw Pegasus yesterday. I have needed a day to absorb what I saw and try and be as fair as possible. I have always liked Adama and supported him rather than Roslin, but it took Cain to show me the error of my ways.

Cain is clearly the better leader. Adama has been dogged by mutiny because of his relaxed style. His relaxed style is unsurprising as he was due to retire with the Galactica and he saw his crew as his family. But when you treat the crew as family you allow them to lose discipline. Adama clearly has not obtained the loyalty that he should, otherwise Lee and Kara would not have done what they did in disobeying orders.

Cain may have executed her XO, but he publicly mutinied against her order. She was forced into it to maintain control. I am sure she wished she didn't have to do it. I can't fathom why her XO would mutiny though. She clearly retreated from the colonies when the cylons attacked, showing she valued survival. So if she ordered an attack, surely there were good chances of winning. Clearly, the Pegasus survived the attack. I liked her system of keeping count of cylon kills. Cain's better discipline is exemplified when Tyrol and Helo attack and kill the Pegasus officer. Galactica marines fired at a crowd of civilians that were throwing objects at them. The Pegasus marines held fire despite being punched and kicked by Tyrol and Helo. Although, the marines that fired at civilians were under Tigh's command, they were the product of their training, which Adama neglected. I feel Cain was justified in holding a court martial herself (her rank entitles her that) and although execution may be harsh, I think it is justified. Tyrol and Helo have been consorting with an enemy that wiped out human civilisation. They have protected it and Helo has allegedly impregnated it. What I want to know is don't Tyrol and Helo have any family or friends that the cylons wiped out. If I found out the woman I loved was a cylon I would be the first one to blow her head off. She is partly responsible for those deaths. Cylons are networked together.

As for the sexual acts being thrust on the cylons. I cannot call it rape. If a human engages in sexual activity with an animal it is beastiality. If a human engages in sexual act with an extra terrestial it is not currently illegal. If a human engages in sexual acts with a toaster it can only be considered masturbation not rape. It appears that many people have forgotten what cylons are, or are completely besotted by looks rather than substance. Because the cylon females look good, people are automatically using the word rape. But that is both legally and philosophically incorrect. Although I find the Pegasus's officer's behaviour wrong I am not going to start a crusade because of it. I am not convinced that Cain knew what he was doing to the cylon anyway.

Irrespective of how the Pegasus officer conducted himself, he was actually effective. The Pegasus has more intelligence on cylon movements and the Galactica can barely spell the word.

Lee has sunk to a new low. He went against his father because he claimed he had principles. But he has betrayed the uniform. He was ordered to report to Pegasus (and I completely agree with Cain's reasoning for the transfers) but he goes on a big complaining spree. Then he orders Kara to take the Blackbird and further disobeys orders. He doesn't have any principles. He is just an anarchist. When he said to the Pegasus CAG "the commander of this ship is Adama remember it, it is the same name as mine", I felt completely sick. He clearly is a daddy's boy.

Kara is arrogant but has nothing to be arrogant about. She was rude to the Pegasus CAG and I think he made the right decision in taking her off the mission. Arrogant people need to have something that backs their arrogance. But Kara has nothing, she is Zak's real killer. She clearly has no conscience otherwise her arrogance would drain away. She made a very serious and bad mistake and got a man killed but it didn't affect her false arrogance.

Adama started the episode perfectly. He rightly gave up military control to Cain. But he has become a mutineer himself. He ordered the marines and fighters to be launched from Galactica first. Cain had no option but to retaliate. She cannot let Adama dictate to her. Any deaths are on Adama's head. He has allowed Cylon sympathisers to go unchecked and breed dissension. He should have had Helo confined to quarters at least. You cannot blame Cain for clearing up his mistakes. I found the previous episode strange also. Everyone didn't like Helo, then he came up with the idea of using Carbon instead of metal on the Blackbird and everyone became his friend. I find that unnatural and I definitely would not be friends with a person who is more concerned about the condition of a cylon, who particpated in the death of a civilisation, then on his fellow humans. I think Helo is a traitor.

The crux of the matter is Cain is right and Adama is wrong.

[BruTak]

Cain's a psychopath - no "ifs" "ands" or "buts"....

[Craig Ranapia]

SemperFidelis:

All I'm going to say is keep an eye on Pegasus deck chief Peter Laid, because in Resurrection Ship Part 1 you're going to find out a few things about Helena Cain that stink of a war crime to me - and she doesn't have the 'plausible deniability' of a rapist doing her dirty work at arm's length. (As for her not knowing that Lt. Thorne was doing to Gina... please! It's simply not plausible, and if true, any commander who doesn't know what a senior officer is doing to a vital intelligence asset when half the crew is lining up for their "turn" should be busted down from command for dangerous incompetence.) Once you seen that episode, perhaps you can clue us in the legal and philosophical correctness of

Spoiler:

murdering unarmed woman and children, then leaving the rest of the civilian fleet to die after stripping their ships at gunpoint.

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As Cain has shown no respect for the chain of command, in the person of her lawful and legitimate Commander-in-Chief, excuse me for deciding that Helena Cain isn't quite the virtuous paragon you paint.

[SemperFidelis]

SemperFidelis:

All I'm going to say is keep an eye on Pegasus deck chief Peter Laid, because in Resurrection Ship Part 1 you're going to find out a few things about Helena Cain that stink of a war crime to me - and she doesn't have the 'plausible deniability' of a rapist doing her dirty work at arm's length. (As for her not knowing that Lt. Thorne was doing to Gina... please! It's simply not plausible, and if true, any commander who doesn't know what a senior officer is doing to a vital intelligence asset when half the crew is lining up for their "turn" should be busted down from command for dangerous incompetence.) Once you seen that episode, perhaps you can clue us in the legal and philosophical correctness of

Spoiler:

murdering unarmed woman and children, then leaving the rest of the civilian fleet to die after stripping their ships at gunpoint.

.

As Cain has shown no respect for the chain of command, in the person of her lawful and legitimate Commander-in-Chief, excuse me for deciding that Helena Cain isn't quite the virtuous paragon you paint.

Well I will have to see Resurrection Ship and evolve my opinion on what I see. But from the episode Pegasus it is clear that Cain does not mix with the crew in the way Adama does and she is more interested in the results than how the result is obtained so it is completely plausible that she doesn't know about Lt. Thorne's interrogation techniques. I sincerely doubt her deck crew is going to brag about their turn to her. In any event you are missing my point. You cannot rape a toaster. I feel no sympathy for the cylons. Are you forgetting that that same model snapped the neck of a baby? The cylons cannot take any moral high ground. As for Cain disrespecting the Chain of Command what are you referring to? If your answer lies within the confines of the episode Pegasus then please enlighten me. If not, then I will come back to it once I have seen what you are referring to.

[Craig Ranapia]

In any event you are missing my point. You cannot rape a toaster. I feel no sympathy for the cylons. Are you forgetting that that same model snapped the neck of a baby? The cylons cannot take any moral high ground. As for Cain disrespecting the Chain of Command what are you referring to? If your answer lies within the confines of the episode Pegasus then please enlighten me. If not, then I will come back to it once I have seen what you are referring to.

Her utterly dismissive and hostile attitude towards the President of the Colonies - and I think it would be fair to cite every scene where Roslin and Cain are in the same shot? Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Colonial Military did operate under civilian command even in time of war. And one might think that when her Commander in Chief wants to talk to her, Admiral Cain would pick up the fracking phone and stop pointedly referring to her as the Education Secretary. Whether Cain likes it or not, Laura Roslin is the legitimate and lawful President and she should behave accordingly.

The Cylon can't take any "moral high ground" - there's not of lot of that real estate anywhere in this show - but neither can Cain. In a sick and creepy way, she's a lot like the Cylon: The perfect ideologue, for whom compassion, conscience even her own moral code is a weakness to be eliminated in pursuit of her agenda. The Cylon don't believe the human race has any right to exist either - except (as we see in The Farm) for

Spoiler:

the handful of fertile human women being used as lab rats Simon the CyMengele expressed reget at having to carve out Starbuck's ovaries - but not for a second does he express doubt about what's going on in the "farms"

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But there's one thing you seem to have forgotten about The Humano-Cylons: Lt. Thorne and his buddies are not lining up to gang-bang a household appliance, but a being who (it has been clearly established) is biologically and physiologically indistinguishable from a human woman. Now, here's where it get tricky if you "can't rape a toaster", because they've done such terrible things, why is it morally unjustifiable for Mason to rape Cally in Bastille Day. After all, can't he similarly objectify her as nothing more than the representative of a repressive regime? Or is there are reason why we have incredibly strong cultural and legal taboos against men forcing women into sexual intercourse, especially when there is physical violence or threats of such involved?

And, just as a matter of speculation, do you think Cain would hesitate to have Thorne court martialed and executed if he'd even tried to sexually assult her or another crew member?

[beale947]

Well Cain is insane, if she wanted it to end peacefully she would of let them go, and the fact that she said 'Welcome back to the fleet Commander Adama' as if it was he who was just found. That really annoyed me, but Adama at the end when he was saying to Cain 'Please arrange for my men to be delived to my marines' i was going WooHoo at Adama, and then when Cain said 'I don't take orders from you' and Adama's reply 'call it what you want, i'm getting my men back' i was cheering for him, and i still stick by what i said about if i was Adama, i would have fired the Galatica's weapons at the pegasus, to show im not messing about.

[Matt G]

Eventually got through this thread. Now I can resume noral GW service tomorrow.

1. Cain is ice cold. Wouldn't rule out her being a Cylon.

2. Six's whining about the mistreatment of her other self didn't wash at all.

3. Whoever claimed that Tyrol and Helo should be brigged: As Starbuck said in an earlier ep: "Everyone was high fiving our Sharon before she put two bullets in the commander".

a. These two are/were closer to Boomer then most on the Galactica. They can't realistically just forget those feelings.

b. Boomer has proven to be willing to help humanity on occassion WITHOUT being under major duress.

At the very least, her torture and rape was fracking stupid if not very sick.

Tyrol and Helo had every right to stop that from happening.

4. I have to admit that I'm surprised Roslin did nothing about Cain taking command. I'd love to know how they're going to get out of the cackstorm.

Overall, top quality ep!

[Craig Ranapia]

4. I have to admit that I'm surprised Roslin did nothing about Cain taking command. I'd love to know how they're going to get out of the cackstorm.

I think you're going to love the next two episodes, where everyone gets splattered with the brown sticky matter of moral not-goodness. The really weird thing thing is that I hated Cain more and more, every time she opened her mouth, but you understand her better. She's not just some fascist psycho out of central casting, which just makes it all that much worse...

[SemperFidelis]

Her utterly dismissive and hostile attitude towards the President of the Colonies - and I think it would be fair to cite every scene where Roslin and Cain are in the same shot? Unless I'm very much mistaken, the Colonial Military did operate under civilian command even in time of war. And one might think that when her Commander in Chief wants to talk to her, Admiral Cain would pick up the fracking phone and stop pointedly referring to her as the Education Secretary. Whether Cain likes it or not, Laura Roslin is the legitimate and lawful President and she should behave accordingly.

Roslin is only President because she survived the cylon onslaught. She was not elected President. Her agreement with Adama is now transferred to Cain and Cain is now responsible for all military decisions. That means Cain does not need to speak to Roslin about military decisions. I am sure that before the cylon attack President Adar would have sought advise from military experts before issuing military orders. The only people left qualified to give advice are Cain and Adama Sr. However, in their current predicament there is no time for conferring so Cain has to have all military decisions delegated to her.

But there's one thing you seem to have forgotten about The Humano-Cylons: Lt. Thorne and his buddies are not lining up to gang-bang a household appliance, but a being who (it has been clearly established) is biologically and physiologically indistinguishable from a human woman. Now, here's where it get tricky if you "can't rape a toaster", because they've done such terrible things, why is it morally unjustifiable for Mason to rape Callyin Bastille Day? After all, can't he similarly objectify her as nothing more than the representative of a repressive regime? Or is there are reason why we have incredibly strong cultural and legal taboos against men forcing women into sexual intercourse, especially when there is physical violence or threats of such involved?

And, just as a matter of speculation, do you think Cain would hesitate to have Thorne court martialed and executed if he'd even tried to sexually assult her or another crew member?

I am not saying you can't rape a cylon by engaging in sexual activity because of their actions. I am saying you can't rape a cylon because they are machines, however appearing, they are machines. And I agree that Cain would have had Thorne executed if he tried to rape her or a member of the crew. You are failing to understand that I am not falling into the trap of humanising the cylons. I see the cylons as machines. No matter how much they bleed or cry I still see them as machines, so it is legally impossible to rape a cylon.

I am not painting Cain as a paragon. But simply put she is a better leader than Adama. None of her crew would have rebelled against her the way Lee and Kara did to Adama. Perhaps Cain is troubled by some pychological trauma which would explain how ready she is to execute people, but irrespective of that she is the better leader. She is able to keep her crew disciplined and obedient. Something which Adama should learn.

[SemperFidelis]

Well Cain is insane, if she wanted it to end peacefully she would of let them go, and the fact that she said 'Welcome back to the fleet Commander Adama' as if it was he who was just found. That really annoyed me, but Adama at the end when he was saying to Cain 'Please arrange for my men to be delived to my marines' i was going WooHoo at Adama, and then when Cain said 'I don't take orders from you' and Adama's reply 'call it what you want, i'm getting my men back' i was cheering for him, and i still stick by what i said about if i was Adama, i would have fired the Galatica's weapons at the pegasus, to show im not messing about.

Well Adama has just taken a very dangerous step. It was Adama who provoked the conflict not Cain. Cain was entitled to Court Martial and execute traitors. As for firing on the Pegasus: the Pegasus is a superior ship to the Galactica and would effectively had destroyed Galactica in a slugging match. But even if Galactica managed to seriously damage the Pegasus what good would it have done to the fleet? You would have left the fleet defenceless against a cylon assault. It is this irresponsible behaviour for the sake of traitors that really offends me. The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few, especially when the few are traitors.

[Craig Ranapia]

Roslin is only President because she survived the cylon onslaught. She was not elected President.

Just as Helena Cain got a very sudden jump in rank (I think it's said in dialogue that she was promoted to Admiral shortly before the attack) the minute Picon Fleet Headquarters and Admiral Nagala's battlestar were reduced to radioactive slag? It's quite carefully established that there's a protocol to establish the senior surviving person in the order of succession following a disaster. That protocol was followed by Roslin in front of independent witnesses. She is the lawful and legitimate President, not the Secretary of Education.

Her agreement with Adama is now transferred to Cain and Cain is now responsible for all military decisions. That means Cain does not need to speak to Roslin about military decisions. I am sure that before the cylon attack President Adar would have sought advise from military experts before issuing military orders.

You'll find out a little later in the season that Adar was quite willing to exercise his authority as CIC as he saw fit no matter who advised him otherwise. And I think that's slightly beside the point, perhaps it's not Admiral Cain's place to decide when she deigns to talk to the President?
And the disposition and status of the civilian fleet most certainly IS NOT Cain's business, though you're going to find she might not have any regard for that anymore than she has for the finer points of the constitution.

I am not saying you can't rape a cylon by engaging in sexual activity because of their actions. I am saying you can't rape a cylon because they are machines, however appearing, they are machines.

Well, we're never going to agree on this point - but that's flat out disturbing, and all too familiar. And to be fair, it's exactly the same rationale Starbuck and Roslin use to justify torturing and murdering Leoben Conoy, They're not like us, so frack 'em - in the case of Thorne, quite literally. I'm not anthropomorphising the Cylons, but questioning whether Helena Cain is morally, ethically or operationally as different as she'd like to believe.

[Chig]

Well, we're never going to agree on this point - but that's flat out disturbing, and all too familiar. And to be fair, it's exactly the same rationale Starbuck and Roslin use to justify torturing and murdering Leoben Conoy, They're not like us, so frack 'em - in the case of Thorne, quite literally. I'm not anthropomorphising the Cylons, but questioning whether Helena Cain is morally, ethically or operationally as different as she'd like to believe.

I have to go with Craig onthis point, and I don't think the Cylonare human or ever will be human as much as they try. I think though they are victim to having some programiming introduced into them as of late that makes them want to be alive as humans. With that in mind they "feel" and they "suffer". For that reason what happened to Gina was awful.

[SemperFidelis]

Just as Helena Cain got a very sudden jump in rank (I think it's said in dialogue that she was promoted to Admiral shortly before the attack) the minute Picon Fleet Headquarters and Admiral Nagala's battlestar were reduced to radioactive slag?

There was no such dialogue. If Cain was promoted after Nagala died Adama should not have known her rank was admiral. The cyclon attack was devastating and quick. I don't see how Cain could be promoted to Admiral and then do a blind jump on pegasus in such a short space of time. She clearly said she was in her quarters when the attack started and by the time she got to CIC 700 men had died and 2 battlestars were instantly destroyed by nuke attacks. Put yourself in that situation. Would Cain have checked if she was now an admiral and lose more lives or do a blind jump straight away? If she was promoted at that point, How could Adama say he was taking command of the fleet in the mini-series? If Cain was promoted to Admiral hours before the attack then your reasoning is false. She was made an admiral due to merit, not because the colonials knew Nagala was going to be killed in a surprise attack. Cain is qualified for her rank. Roslin in not qualified but was thrust with the office of President. If I was Adama I would want a qualified President, otherwise I would invoke Martial Law. Frankly, I am not even sure what Roslin does. We don't get to see civilian life in the fleet.

[Madeleine]

Cain had the better military discipline, but at what price? Adama's had to relax things, because he has people on his crew who have no family or friends off the Galagtica, and while any soldier expects to be far from loved ones for long spells there's a difference between being on a long tour of duty with only occasional letters from home to sustain you and having your life turned into one neverending tour of duty without even a letter from home cos there is no home and no one to write the letters. Individuals in Adama's crew have come close to breaking point. Tyrol before he found his shipbuilding project to take his mind off things; that druggie pilot girl, for instance.

Tighter discipline would keep things on a better footing in the short term, but no one can live like that forever and stay sane and balanced. How many people on Cain's crew have gone a bit off the rails? I bet that there have been a few, and I bet they're dead - shot in the head? That's going to be a powerful incentive for the rest to stay under discipline, but to what end? To turn into automatons and zombies with no human feelings. Better to become cylons!

Which brings me to the treatment of the cylon prisoners. 'You can't rape a toaster, so it wasn't rape' is no argument. A toaster can't beg you to stop. A toaster doesn't weep afterwards. Even if you are able to totally discount the cylon womens' feeling as immaterial because they aren't human so they don't matter (I can't feel that way, but if others can so be it), what does it do to a man to forcibly penetrate a thing that resembles a woman in every way, right down to the pleading and the struggling and the desperation a woman would show when being raped?