Home, Part 1 (206)

[Liebestraume]

I didn't have a problem with what the writers were trying to convey with the scene. I just feel that Apollo was portrayed as a teddy bear for her to cuddle with as opposed to a rock for her to stabilize herself on. I truly believe the latter would've been better for the characters and their very disfuntional relationship because even a woman as solid as Starbuck has more estrogen than testosterone coursing through her veins and thus at some level needs a man to act like a man.

Thanks for clarify your earlier point -- now I really know where you come from (as opposed to just "know" from before ). I'll bypass the discussion of biology for the most part, because I fear we'll never see eye-to-eye on that issue. The difficulty may be traced to our seeming distinctive viewers of human behavior -- you see it mostly visceral while I cerebral; "gender bias" may have nothing to do with it.

Now, I am not all together sure what you mean by "act like a man" so perhap you'll elaborate? To me, he was exactly what she needed at that time. I am not going to say that there will never be a time when Kara needs a rock to lean on -- I hope there will be, for she is after all human -- but I don't think that was one of those times. She looked reflective, perhaps a bit melancholy, but not vulnerable. His "... if you need to talk I'm here" may indeed be superfluous, given she is not the communicative type; but IMO that's exactly what she needed to hear at the time. Even a tough girl like Kara wants to know she is not alone and she is cared.

Back on track to the current topic "Are Cylons Human" ... I am of the opinion that Cylons are not human but sentient beings. But, would that change the rule of the game? I think most of us would be ready to concede the equality among humans, Vulcans, and Kligons; why are these sentient beings so different? Would their "artificial" origin always make them "subhuman"?

[dec55]

It would appear that the Galacticans are not able to see that AI are a new
form of sentient life...like say the folks in the Matrix or Andromeda...or even Aliens,and Bladerunner , where AI rights are just accepted as a life form. It would appear the Galacticans are on the verge of discovering that what they actually created is a form of life.....

It would put the Galacticans at the same point in time as in the Matrix where Earth folks were not aware of the AI self awareness and got whacked because of it. Just to give a reference with another story. The Matrix story and BSG humans find themselves in the same situation. With the same predjudices and basically getting the same fate for now.

[Easter Lily]

I'm not sure how much of what Six says to Baltar is official party line, how much of it is manipulation or how much can be accredited to an individual awareness but she is always at pains to highlight the worst in the human condition. So at least from her rather coloured perspective, humans have turned corrupt and no longer deserving of "God's" favour. Leoben also appears to be towing that line.
So what we have are the cylons saying that they are a superior successor to the human race and yet some of them are demonstrating the same "weaknesses" that they despise in humanity. Or are they merely manifesting the better qualities of humanity? Does that, therefore, mean then that they are human? But then we have Doral saying to Six, "I wonder what it is like to feel alive" which makes one suspect that perhaps they are not as "complete" as they would like to be.
I don't believe the cylons are human in the way we understand "human"... while they can take on human qualities, there are aspects of their make up that are unlike humans. They are capable of rational thought and yet they can be programmed to be given memories or instructions. Their consciousness seems to be transferable in a mechanical sort of way. As for them developing emotions, is that something inherent or is it something triggered by long interaction with humans?

[Thermonuclearboy]

Well, emotions are, essentially, programmed things. Human beings are conditioned to respond to certain things in certain ways by upbringing, by social pressure, by biology. In essence, emotions are a set of programming instructions that influence decision-making. It's not impossible for a complex-enough computer to have them.

Sentience is another matter altogether...if a machine is programmed to THINK it's sentient, and acts accordingly, does it make it truly sentient? And how would an outside observer know the difference? Is there even a difference?

[FeloniousMonk]

I think I understand why my views differ from most...

See, I agree that emotions can be considered a form of programming but where I draw the line is that I believe our genetic programming is governed solely by the biochemistry at work behind it, with no external intelligence having "decided" anything. With the Cylons, everything they think and feel was at one point based on human intelligence creating the concept of programming computers. Every strand of our DNA can be broken down each level and you still won't have anything making a decision; if string theory is correct then everything that our "life" is based on it basically random chance. The Cylons were created via intelligence, we weren't. That's the difference between real sentience and artificial intelligence, in my opinion.


so yeah, that's just how I see things

[Egeria]

The Cylons were created via intelligence, we weren't.

Oooh, that opens up an entirely new arguement....that of creation v evolution.

[IMForeman]

Also, it would be funny if they found a big round thing with weird symbols on it..

Made that during Season 1.

Why is the topic for Home Part 2 still locked?

-IMF

[zats]

--spoilers 'Home Pt. II'--

They sorta did...it just wasn't a Stargate (or was it...?)

[IMForeman]

--spoilers 'Home Pt. II'--

They sorta did...it just wasn't a Stargate (or was it...?)

It was a bit long for a Gate address though.

-IMF

[zats]

They have an older model of 'gate, that's all.

[FeloniousMonk]

watching last night's episode now...one thing I noticed last week but forgot to mention: a bouncing betty would've done a hell of a lot more damage to the priestess. that close to a land mine and her face would've been shredded half off with third degree burn marks all over. not a big deal for most but tiny little things like that ruin scenes for me...reminds me of when a footprint from a previous take of a scene ruined an otherwise perfect HBO miniseries about the Apollo landings for me

[/tan]

[Blue Banrigh]

Was anybody else surprised that Adama chose Dualla to talk to? But the reasons she gave him for why he chose her made sense.

Love the 'Good Lighter' music theme from Hand of God.

[Wayan]

Hi all, not new to GateWorld, but New To the BSG part of it. Only discovered the show this weekend with a mammoth DvD watching Spree (the mini series and all season 1 in one Day). Well thats not technically true, I've been meaning to get into the show forever but avoiding watching it on TV as I just hate jumping into series mid flow. Finally got my hands on the Mini-series DVD and season 1 and sure enough I fallen in love with it and have since been watching the Second series a friend of mine sent me (on VHS). So far only watched upto this episode hence my commenting on it.

I really will try not to babble on all my thoughts on the show but I did want to add my comments on FeliousMonks posts about seeing the Cylons as nothing more than computers. I for one find this very hard to swallow now. Infact I think its one of the driving forces behind the whole show. Challenging our preconceptions of humanity and what makes us human. i won't argue the Cylons were simple machines to begin with but they seem to have evolved to something else. Saying there nothing more than computers mimicing just doesn't cut it for me. If you want to break them down and say they can't be scientiant or alive due to the parts that make them, when humans are broken down into there pure scientific parts were nothing more than strands of DNA. The real life and soul of a human has yet to be quantified. Biological where nothing special. Once more we have evolved ourselves if the theory of evolution is to be believed. We weren't always the sentient beings we are now and were something much more basic and simple.

I don't know maybe I give the Cylons too much credit... but for them just to be killing machines mimicing humans just seems... well too simple for BSG... and wouldn't leave me forfilled at the end of the day.

[Mr. Seven]

Looking back, I hope that Kara, Helo and Anders exchanged Cylon intel..

I mean they all had to have encountered humanoid cylons before.

We know Anders encountered Leoben, due to his " You swin in the stream " line.

I am wondering if Anders is a cylon...

[Matt G]

OK...

1. How much of a moron was the new CAG?

2. Dualla had a point that I completely forgot about, it was Adama who was yelling "so say we all" in the mini-series. Looks like Adama had realised he'd forgotten about it as well, 9/10 he wouldn't back down on that sort of thing.

3. Interesting dynamics running between Apollo and Starbuck.