Home, Part 1 (206)

[Liebestraume]

I don't think I could say he was naive or a dumbass, or whatever context people choose to take. Helo was unfortunate that he didn't know Boomer was a Cylon prior to them developing a relationship, plus he's now tied to the knowledge that she is carrying his baby.

I think Easter Lily's point is this

He forgot about his own initial reaction, which was to run and then reach out for his sidearm.

His initial reaction was human, while his current is a man in love. While the rest of humanity shares his, well, humanity, they don't share his love. For him not to realize this is indeed ... unwise.

Notice her reaction? Doesn't look like it was expected or welcomed.

Unexpected, to be sure, sinec they've never done it before. Well, not conciously anyways, since we've known she'd done more than that in her mind. But, does this look unwelcomed by her?

also, may get lynched for this but he's kind of a pansy.

Nah, no one around here is lynched for expressing an opinion. Now, not being able to properly support it might be an entirely different matter.

[FeloniousMonk]

Why? Because he fell in love with a Cylon? Does that mean that Chief Tyrol is a dumbass too?

Because the only reason he's latching onto her like this is because he had to sit back and see her with the chief for so long. Probably been pining for her for years and likely been "friend-zoned" for just as long. Whether or not he actually loved the Boomer he thought he knew, this attatchment because she claims to be pregnant is ridiculous. He's taking advantage of the opportunity because he knows it's the only way he'll have the woman he's seen with another man for years. In sci-fi it's called romance, in real life it's called pathetic.

[Mr. Seven]

Not really. Take a look at Boomer. Hell take a look at any of the women on this show and it's not so pathetic to act like Helo, Apollo, Tyrol, etc.. are.

[FeloniousMonk]

I think Easter Lily's point is this His initial reaction was human, while his current is a man in love. While the rest of humanity shares his, well, humanity, they don't share his love. For him not to realize this is indeed ... unwise.

Unexpected, to be sure, sinec they've never done it before. Well, not conciously anyways, since we've known she'd done more than that in her mind. But, does this look unwelcomed by her?

Nah, no one around here is lynched for expressing an opinion. Now, not being able to properly support it might be an entirely different matter.

Yes it looks unwelcomed! What was the first thing she did when he initiated the kiss? She pulled back, pushed him away, said "Good to see you too, Captain." She emphasized the rank for a reason, to remind him that she was hugging him as a friend and fellow officer, not a lover. The look on her face was certainly not one of appreciation. Unless Sackhoff acted the scene wrong, it was readily apparent she wasn't pleased with what he did.


Well, Barber's high pitched voice and pale skin notwithstanding, the character isn't written as a pansy around Starbuck. That talk they had was, like Helo's obsession with a machine that is just as likely lying to him, pathetic. It felt like I was watching a nerdy freshman trying to swoon over a vulnerable cheerleader by being "a nice guy". Looks like Apollo's had a thing for Starbuck since before Zak died...."if you wanna talk, I'm here for you" is such a cheesy line.

Not to say that he's not a man of his convictions (though it seems kinda ****ed up that he was doing what he did to support a democracy that, right before his eyes, is turning into a theocracy) but between the two Starbuck is easily the more masculine character.

[FeloniousMonk]

Not really. Take a look at Boomer. Hell take a look at any of the women on this show and it's not so pathetic to act like Helo, Apollo, Tyrol, etc.. are.

yes because looks are certainly everything

Tyrol is one thing. They had a relationship, he loved his Sharon and knew that she loved him back. What he feels now is confusion and betrayal. It's hard to let go of something like that. But Helo seems like he was always the guy watching Sharon out of the corner of his eye, wishing it was him instead of the chief. So hey, look how convenient this is. Now there's enough Sharon's for everyone to he latches on as if his life depended on it.

And like Starbuck said, guys can be unimaginably stupid sometimes. They have NO proof whatsoever that she's actually pregnant and even if she was they should've shot her back on Caprica (though it wouldn't have served the story well, I know ).

[Ariadne]

Yeah right! What you people are trying to say in oh so many replies to quote is that these guys can't tell the difference between a Cylon and a human woman. They ARE HUMAN you putzes!!!

Their minds were designed to act like humans. They bleed. They sweat. They turn red when they're horny. THEY ARE HUMAN!!!! I couldn't tell the difference if they had a big neon sign on their backs.... oh they do!, don't they? It's ridiculous to judge the way these people's reactions were written when the entire circumstance is SCIENCE FICTION!!!

OH! and as far as Apollo being a pansy? He is because Jamie Bamber looks like a 15-year-old, as bald or ruggedly handsome. If Anders had said it, NO ONE would call him a pansy because he looks like the hunky hulk. It's a casting thing.

But true fans know, we love our new Apollo and we wouldn't change him for the world. ^_^

--Grace

And the kiss rocked. No one can challenge me there. As the queen of shippers, yeah... well done. Had nothing to do with plot. Now that's how a good shipper is made.

[FeloniousMonk]

Human or not it doesn't change the fact that Helo's attraction stems from him not being able to hook up with the Boomer he knew. Again, the pregnancy should be a non-issue because only a complete fool thinking with the wrong head believes a woman claiming "I'm carrying your child" when her entire family is known for their deception. Could she at least pee on a stick and prove to them that she's pregnant? Nah, he just buys it. Human, Cylon, whatever, it's still a really bad choice. If Sharon was a human simply aiding the Cylons I'd have the exact same opinion. Helo finally gets the girl he's been pining for.


I wouldn't call Anders a pansy because his character wouldn't say that. His and Starbuck's goodbye scene was a bit overplayed but in my opinion that was just the writers trying to fill time for some reason. But Apollo was acting like a neutered puppy; believe me, I've been the "nice guy" more times than I care to remember so I can spot the feebleness a mile away. The point is that Starbuck seems like more of a man than Apollo and that's a really disturbing thought.

I dunno if y'all were watching the same episode I was but the look on her face and the first thing coming out of her mouth seemed very apparent that he should not have done that, especially in front of a crowd.

[Easter Lily]

Yes it looks unwelcomed! What was the first thing she did when he initiated the kiss? She pulled back, pushed him away, said "Good to see you too, Captain." She emphasized the rank for a reason, to remind him that she was hugging him as a friend and fellow officer, not a lover. The look on her face was certainly not one of appreciation. Unless Sackhoff acted the scene wrong, it was readily apparent she wasn't pleased with what he did.

Well, I've looked at the scene several times over (and the husband can testify to that ) and while she does pull back in surprise, she certainly doesn't push him away. (Just rechecked... and she even gives him a little smile) In fact she looks to be still holding on to him until the President makes her approach and then she turns around slightly (and somewhat reluctantly) to look at the Roslin. But as far as her body language is concerned... she didn't give me any sense that she was displeased, just taken aback. Her hands are still on his shoulders until Roslin walks up to her. It seems to me that her attempt at a bit of humour suggests something more along the lines of "My, my what have we here?" Throughout their little banter, their proximity is maintained.
Actually I read in an interview in which Katee Sackhoff claims that when she has a scene with Apollo, she tells herself, "You're in love with this guy" and acts accordingly.

Well, Barber's high pitched voice and pale skin notwithstanding, the character isn't written as a pansy around Starbuck. That talk they had was, like Helo's obsession with a machine that is just as likely lying to him, pathetic. It felt like I was watching a nerdy freshman trying to swoon over a vulnerable cheerleader by being "a nice guy". Looks like Apollo's had a thing for Starbuck since before Zak died...."if you wanna talk, I'm here for you" is such a cheesy line.

Not to say that he's not a man of his convictions (though it seems kinda ****ed up that he was doing what he did to support a democracy that, right before his eyes, is turning into a theocracy) but between the two Starbuck is easily the more masculine character.

Well, I don't disagree that Jamie Bamber has a high-pitched voice which is probably exacerbated by the fact that he has to put on an accent which is not his own. It would have been nice for him to keep his Oxbridge accent but it was not to be. *Sigh*
But I'm not convinced the awkwardness is not deliberate. The man is trying to reach out... but he's not too sure how to do it, so he dances around to "test the waters" as it were. It doesn't suggest that he's a wimp, all it says to me is that he doesn't know how to relate to Kara on an emotional level.
I don't disagree that there is an interesting role reversal with regard to the male Apollo and the female Starbuck with regard to Apollo being the more thoughtful, "nurturing" character and Starbuck being the gungho, military maverick. But that's as far as it goes and it doesn't equate with someone being wimpy. Lee is still very much a leader of men and is full of initiative when the need arises. I think it's rather clever of the writers to play around with the archetypes and yet still not take away from the character's fundamental masculinity.

[FeloniousMonk]

I guess we disagree on both counts because I still see a look of unacceptance on her face in addition to what she says. The near sarcastic way she uses his rank does not, to me, denote affection.

Also, I still think that particular scene (the talk, not the kiss) solidified a wimpy image. Leader of men, yes. I'm not saying he isn't being a good CAG and isn't acting like a man in battle. But his attitude around her is so beyond pathetic that it's not even laughable. Then again maybe I'm reading too much into it but it just seems he's written like a pansy.

[Mr. Seven]

I dunno, I think the reason she didn't like the kiss because she just left Anders behind, so Lee kissing her felt like an intrusion.

If he had done that BEFORE Kobol's Last Gleaming, she would have been all over him.

[Easter Lily]

I don't think I could say he was naive or a dumbass, or whatever context people choose to take. Helo was unfortunate that he didn't know Boomer was a Cylon prior to them developing a relationship, plus he's now tied to the knowledge that she is carrying his baby.

For Lee it was easy for him to out his sidearm. Lee's only current emotional attachment to the Cylons (esp Boomer) is vengence over the shooting of his father. Helo on the other hand now has the emotional attachment that Boomer is carrying his child. If I was him, or you put yourself in the situation where the mother of your child was not the person you thought they were, I don't think I could go through the act of killing that individual -after all its not the fault of the child. I'd like to think that if he was to meet another Boomer, or indeed if Boomer hadn't fallen pregnant, then he'd have done the smart thing and shot her.

I am not totally unsympathetic with Helo's plight and I certainly see your point that he was misled. I like him and feel sorry for him but he has shown himself rather unwise on more than one occasion.
For him to be involved with Sharon while being on the run, in the first place, was to my mind, extremely ill-judged. I have often wondered why he never questioned her once about why having established such a passionate relationship with the chief she would throw herself at him. I think a wiser man would have given this some consideration. I have no doubt he was desperately in love with her... Kara said as much... But for her to change her "preferences" at the drop of a hat should have rang alarm bells. I take Felonious' point that Helo was desperate... and desperate to the point that it has impaired his judgement. (Because as we see, the man is no fool... he afterall did deduce that the cylons were now more human like) But as my mother giving me the benefit of her experience, tells me that even the most capable men in the world can become utter fools when a woman is involved.
Furthermore, as Liebestraume has said, Helo was naive in thinking that just because he is in love with a cylon and that she claims that she's in love with him that everyone would somehow roll over and pretend that the cylons weren't responsible for the almost complete decimation of the human race. I'm with Lee, Roslin and everyone else on this. So far the cylons have proven themselves to be killing machines adept at deception and subterfuge, what's to say that this one is different? There are no guarantees that this Sharon, pregnant or not pregnant, will not turn on them at some point in time and send them all to eternity. Also let's not forget Helo's reaction the first time he discovers that she's a cylon... the man takes off like a rabbit. And when they meet at Delphi, he pulls out his sidearm and gives her a couple of rounds. So it's not like he hasn't thought of it himself.

Incidentally, I do believe she is pregnant... there is the matter of her morning sickness in The Hand of God which is suppose to indicate to us anyway that she's not prevaricating on that point.

[Easter Lily]

I guess we disagree on both counts because I still see a look of unacceptance on her face in addition to what she says. The near sarcastic way she uses his rank does not, to me, denote affection.

Also, I still think that particular scene (the talk, not the kiss) solidified a wimpy image. Leader of men, yes. I'm not saying he isn't being a good CAG and isn't acting like a man in battle. But his attitude around her is so beyond pathetic that it's not even laughable. Then again maybe I'm reading too much into it but it just seems he's written like a pansy.

Well, I don't know about you... but I haven't seen a man who is secretly in love with a woman who isn't just a tad awkward around her. Maybe it is pathetic... maybe it is also human...

[FeloniousMonk]

Well, I don't know about you... but I haven't seen a man who is secretly in love with a woman who isn't just a tad awkward around her. Maybe it is pathetic... maybe it is also human...

It's not about being awkward. Maybe I'm just explaining it wrong but it's almost as if he's trying too hard to get in her pants using the nice guy routine. Up until that scene I didn't see it this way but the kiss and that talk just brought my previous analogy into my mind; the scared little freshman nerd trying to console a vulnerable cheerleader. If y'all can't grasp what I'm trying to convey with that then I'm simply not able to explain it well enough.

It just ruined the character for me, that's all.

[Egeria]

Human or not it doesn't change the fact that Helo's attraction stems from him not being able to hook up with the Boomer he knew. Again, the pregnancy should be a non-issue because only a complete fool thinking with the wrong head believes a woman claiming "I'm carrying your child" when her entire family is known for their deception. Could she at least pee on a stick and prove to them that she's pregnant? Nah, he just buys it.

So Helo's a fool for believing Boomers claims that she's pregnant. I'm sorry but I don't agree. Yes it is an age old practice of women 'trapping' men by false claims of pregnancy, but he's hardly in a position to seek proof. He can't verify her claims cos he isn't walking around with a home pregnancy testing kit. So is he a fool for believing her? What should he do...kill her because of her lineage, taking the chance that there's a high probability that she's lying, or not take the risk, on the slight chance that she might be telling the truth and be carrying his child?

[tsaxlady]

They DO delight in torturing me don't they ANOTHER "to be continued"

yeah, my inner shipper was sqeeing at the Kara-Lee stuff Except now of course I want MOOOOREEEE

I was so happy when Adama said he was gonna reunite the fleet - I really hope it's in a good way, more conflict is so not what they need right now.

I couldn't help thinking when watching the previews for next week "Oh god, not AGAIN" at the bit with Sharon saying " You take the son, I'll take the Father" ..... I'm not delusional right, she did say that, promptly followed by a clip of Sharon rounding on the Old Man with a gun.... again.... WAAAA!

Just a guess here but I have a feel that Sharon will turn the gun on

Spoiler:

Zarek's guy and take him out and save Adama and Apollo

This was my personal favorite episode of the season so far. I'm looking forward to seeing how things play out next week.