Home, Part 1 (206)

[Egeria]

Good point. She's still a Cylon, though. Not a person, a machine. Not a sentient being, just a machine programmed to act like one.

Initially when I read your post I thought "why does this guy/gal seem so intent on viewing her as a machine", I was a bit irked. I have to say thanks though, because it has made me reconsider my stance on whether she is programmed with a false sentience.

Certainly Galactica's Boomer would support this...up until she shot Adama she seemed to have self-awareness, and remorse, even though she suspected that she might be a Cylon. At the end of the day, though, she had no control over her programming when she shot the old man.

Caprica's Boomer also has shown self-awareness, though she has known from the start that she is a Cylon. The question is that in the earlier eps (can't remember which one) when Six kicks the crap out of her to make out that she had been roughed up by the Cylons, it seems like she is following a plan. However in Home Roslin is quick on the uptake that this Boomer apparantly loves Helo, so much so that she can use it against her. (my head is starting to hurt).

Another question re: sentience - surely the fact that the Cylons who were initially machines created to serve Humans, rebelled, demonstrates some kind of self-awareness. The fact that they seem to be on some religious drive demonstrates further sentient thought.

God, I hate this show as much as I love it....it don't 'alf make your brain work.

[Liebestraume]

...."if you wanna talk, I'm here for you" is such a cheesy line.

You know, I actually thought that was a very nice line (as was the whole scene), but I know where you come from. A lot of my friends are guys in their 20's; were I openly ask them what they thought of that line, I know for sure almost all of them would tell me exactly the same thing that you just said.

That is, if they had to answer that question in front of other guys. Some of them are very good friends of mine, and I happen to know they are capable of sensitivity in private. The interesting thing here is that these "sensitive males" would feel genuinely embarrassed to witness this type of sentiment displayed by another member of their own sex; I suppose that's because it's not considered "cool" in our culture.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the dialogue and the whole scene was perhaps meant to be viewed as a very private moment between two very old, good friends. In fact, I kind of doubt Lee would say all that stuff publicly, seeing his slight confusion and embarrassment right after that implusive kiss from before.

To be honest, if I were to observe that scene I'd probably feel quite embarrassed myself. Just like you probably did -- hence this may be not a "gender" thing 'cos ours are obviously opposite. However, if I saw it from the POV of either one of them, I'd probably feel it quite natural. So, perhaps, it's literally a matter of perspective.

And I agree with Easter Lily and LoneStar that his initial "goofiness" was most likely delibrate. Earlier in that day their interactions had ran from hot to cold to all over the place, and now he just needed something to break the ice. One might say an "I'm sorry" would have been a good place to start, but I think sometimes you just don't say that when you are friends with someone for too long and been through too much together.

Sorry if I'm not explaining all this very well ... that whole scene just felt so everyday and ordinary to me that it's hard to wax poetic about it. But that's also why I thought it was so good.

[FeloniousMonk]

The line seems to be a little blury I would say at this point Physically they don't seem to have any mechanical parts. How can they be a machine? But they were 'grown' in a lab, and there are many copies. Is our uniqueness a defining factor in what makes us human?

Such questions....argh my head.

What makes us human is our genetic code, nothing else. Not morality or murder or art or literature or baseball or lipstick. Genetics are the only thing that truly defines us as homo sapien and seperates us from other organisms.

Now, as well as the Cylons may have copied those genetics and used them to grow synthetic cells that mimic geniune tissue, they're still not human and they're still not alive. They mimic life, they mimic sentience, they mimic a consciousness but at the end of the day it's all software. Coded instructions and responses to input; that's not thought.

Then again that's just my theory, I could be wrong

Caprica's Boomer also has shown self-awareness, though she has known from the start that she is a Cylon. The question is that in the earlier eps (can't remember which one) when Six kicks the crap out of her to make out that she had been roughed up by the Cylons, it seems like she is following a plan. However in Home Roslin is quick on the uptake that this Boomer apparantly loves Helo, so much so that she can use it against her. (my head is starting to hurt).

Another question re: sentience - surely the fact that the Cylons who were initially machines created to serve Humans, rebelled, demonstrates some kind of self-awareness. The fact that they seem to be on some religious drive demonstrates further sentient thought.

Roslin points out that it doesn't matter whether she really loves him or not, just that she thinks she does. She's been programmed to have a seemingly emotional attatchment to Helo but in the end it's still just lines of code being processed according to preset instructions.

You're right, it does seem to demonstrate some form of sentience but I think artificial intelligence is defined as such because it's still based on a series of complex algorithms that work around a basic set of commands. AIs are given core principles (survive, replicate, make pizza, etc) and then the proper programming necessary to meet those goals in the most statistically efficient way possible.

Unless one can suggest that our own thoughts are somehow governed by some type of programming, I don't think I could ever accept that Cylons are anything but really complex computers.

[FeloniousMonk]

You know, I actually thought that was a very nice line (as was the whole scene), but I know where you come from. A lot of my friends are guys in their 20's; were I openly ask them what they thought of that line, I know for sure almost all of them would tell me exactly the same thing that you just said.

That is, if they had to answer that question in front of other guys. Some of them are very good friends of mine, and I happen to know they are capable of sensitivity in private. The interesting thing here is that these "sensitive males" would feel genuinely embarrassed to witness this type of sentiment displayed by another member of their own sex; I suppose that's because it's not considered "cool" in our culture.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, the dialogue and the whole scene was perhaps meant to be viewed as a very private moment between two very old, good friends. In fact, I kind of doubt Lee would say all that stuff publicly, seeing his slight confusion and embarrassment right after that implusive kiss from before.

To be honest, if I were to observe that scene I'd probably feel quite embarrassed myself. Just like you probably did -- hence this may be not a "gender" thing 'cos ours are obviously opposite. However, if I saw it from the POV of either one of them, I'd probably feel it quite natural. So, perhaps, it's literally a matter of perspective.

You're right, it's probably more of an awkward moment because it's being looked at from a third person POV. And while you make very good points on the other subject, it's not where I'm coming from. I readily accept whatever sensitive side I have left in me that isn't currently being eroded by cynicism (girls are crazy and a pain in the ass ) and I understand that most of your friends wouldn't admit it either. But given this veil of anonymity I'd have no issue whatsoever enjoying an emotional and heartfelt scene. Back in the miniseries when Adama found out Apollo was still alive and they hugged in his quarters I had to really work at holding back a couple tears (my relationship with my father was certainly a catalyst).

My problem was never with the goal of the scene, only the execution. Over the years I've begun to master the art of being sensitive while at the same time retaining a sense of masculinity about me. Why? Because I've learned that despite what girls claim they do not like guys to be as sensitive as they are. Again we go back to simple biology. Men have more of the hormone that dictates the survival instincts while women have more of the hormone that dictates the familial instincts. We're simply designed this way and believe me I would never, ever suggest that one role is less important than the other or that men are "stronger" because of this fact. We're simply wired differently.

Gimme a second to figure out where I was going with this....

..

oh yea

I didn't have a problem with what the writers were trying to convey with the scene. I just feel that Apollo was portrayed as a teddy bear for her to cuddle with as opposed to a rock for her to stabilize herself on. I truly believe the latter would've been better for the characters and their very disfuntional relationship because even a woman as solid as Starbuck has more estrogen than testosterone coursing through her veins and thus at some level needs a man to act like a man.

[/two cents]


I like this forum, I really hope I don't offend anyone with my overly clinical view of human psychology

[TheHomegaMan]

I'm going to fall in with those who say that Caprica Sharon's "love" is artificial. From everything they've indicated, the whole purpose of CSharon was to fall in love with Helo, placate him, and see if "love" is what the Cylons lack when it comes to natural reproduction. The best way to accomplish a goal is to get your agents to truly believe in what they're doing. Looks to me like CSharon's getting played, expertly so.

[Shipperahoy]

I actually don't think that Caprica Boomer's love is artificial. Actually it's more like I don't want to think that her love is artificial. I'm actually pulling for those two. What can I say? I'm a hopeless romantic. Plus, I think that it would make the story more interesting if Cylons were actually capable of feeling human emotions without it being programming.

[Easter Lily]

My problem was never with the goal of the scene, only the execution. Over the years I've begun to master the art of being sensitive while at the same time retaining a sense of masculinity about me. Why? Because I've learned that despite what girls claim they do not like guys to be as sensitive as they are. Again we go back to simple biology. Men have more of the hormone that dictates the survival instincts while women have more of the hormone that dictates the familial instincts. We're simply designed this way and believe me I would never, ever suggest that one role is less important than the other or that men are "stronger" because of this fact. We're simply wired differently.

Gimme a second to figure out where I was going with this....

..

oh yea

I didn't have a problem with what the writers were trying to convey with the scene. I just feel that Apollo was portrayed as a teddy bear for her to cuddle with as opposed to a rock for her to stabilize herself on. I truly believe the latter would've been better for the characters and their very disfuntional relationship because even a woman as solid as Starbuck has more estrogen than testosterone coursing through her veins and thus at some level needs a man to act like a man.

[/two cents]


I like this forum, I really hope I don't offend anyone with my overly clinical view of human psychology

Apollo... a teddy bear...? I want, I want, I want...
Drats... just remembered...
*grumbles something about being married*

I have no doubt that Lee is being portrayed as the Sensitive New Age Guy here (he has a nice moment with Roslin at the end) but we mustn't forget that his character is not privy to the kind of information that we are. We know what she's been up to... he doesn't... He tried the playful angle but that didn't go down well so he changes tact.
He was more than a little annoyed with her for interrupting his "conversation" with Boomer and probably realised quickly enough that her accusation of his being hypocritical had some merit. I suppose he was trying to offer the olive branch but she wasn't in the right frame of mind for it.
From your "omniscient" point of view, she needs him to be a man... but from his point of view, he wants to find out what's eating her. She's not terribly communicative... So instead of forcing the issue, he does what any wise person would and that is to back off but leave the door open for further communication... except of course we know he doesn't just open the door in the episode... he opens the floodgates too... It may seem unmanly to you but in a strange way it works, her interest is piqued and she perks up... At the risk of repeating a horrendously trite and overused cliche, it brought out the child in her, with the whole "Lee Adama Loves Me" line and then the rest of the playground banter. This to me is significant because it relates to something very profound about her background... the unhappy childhood and child abuse that was strongly suggested the earlier episode. That she can relate to Lee on this childlike/elemental level is very poignant... very different to her relationships to other men which is largely about flying, adrenalin, and sex.

I've had a bit of experience counselling couples... just a bit... and I know that sometimes men and women confuse each other no end.. But I don't like generalizing too much where relationships are concerned. Of course, men and women are wired differently but their family and cultural background also contributes in a major way to the dynamic of the relationship. Every couple is different in the way they make demands and relate to one another because they come from different families...


But... aaaaaaannnnyway... it's all fascinating stuff...

[FeloniousMonk]

But... aaaaaaannnnyway... it's all fascinating stuff...

well at least I won't argue with that

[Thermonuclearboy]

Here's my take on Lee Adama: he's a military brat. His father is a decorated officer and hero, and Lee went into the armed forces either to please his father or because he simply knew no other way to be. Probably got a cushy assignment far away from any potential combat, thanks to Bill Adama, and even though he's an officer he's just not used to actually commanding men, let alone leading them into battle. He's the "golden boy" of the fleet, but not really much of a soldier. A good pilot, but flying under actual fire is a new experience for him. He was simply not prepared to step up and become a CAG in a time of war (then again, I guess the whole point is that NO ONE was prepared for this). If you recall some of the early exchanges between Apollo and Starbuck, you'll see that he's clearly not used to giving orders and handing out discipline, and Starbuck actually calls him on that several times. In a sense Starbuck is a more natural warrior than Apollo. She really should be the CAG, if only her discipline problems were under control.

[entil2001]

So now that all the early season plot threads are coming together, there’s too much story for just one episode. The result is a two-part story that slowly but surely triggers all the little plot elements that have been waiting for their time to shine. Since this is the first half of the story, there’s not a lot of action, and the focus is on character development. That’s not a bad thing; it’s simply not as exciting as the last few episodes before it.

Everything that’s been happening on the series this season traces back to the first season finale, where Roslyn asked Starbuck to violate orders and retrieve the Arrow of Apollo. It’s just taken a long time to hash itself out, and I couldn’t be happier about it. In this case, we get to see Adama slowly work through his emotional response to the fragmentation of the fleet, Roslyn struggle to maintain her control, Zarek’s underhanded plots, and a little Apollo/Starbuck action. Oh, and there’s the small matter of Boomer’s return as well.

I like how Adama’s psychological space is so controlled, yet everything can be discerned by one look in his eyes. Olmos brings such an intensity to the role; it’s a joy to behold. I think there’s a tension and distance growing between Adama and Tigh, however. For all the support Adama promised upon his return, he’s seen the cost of Tigh’s heavy-handed dictatorship. The only way to heal the wounds (if they can be healed) is to make peace with Roslyn, which is going to take a lot for Adama to accept. Odd that Dualla is the one that gets him to see that.

That’s something that happens a lot on Galactica. Minor characters provide an amazing level of support for their commanding officers. Normally, that would go unquestioned, especially in a siege crisis like the one they are enduring. But this is also a fleet with unknown Cylon infiltrators, one of which was just as trusted a “family member”. It’s hard not to wonder about motives.

Speaking of which, there’s Boomer and all the questions surrounding her motivations. I’m surprised that Apollo’s the only one who assumed that the ambush was Boomer’s doing. Whatever Boomer’s role in the big picture, she provides a great trigger point for conflict within and between the humans. Roslyn in particular seems to have little use for Boomer, despite the fact that Boomer is probably the only source of real intel that the humans know they have.

Richard Hatch must be incredibly happy. After all these years of trying to get the original series resurrected and fighting against a reinvention, he’s not only come around to see the light, but he’s been handed what is possibly the best role of his career. He brings a relish to Zarek’s plotting, even if the dialogue is a little heavy-handed; they didn’t need to say nearly as much as they did to get the point across.

And then there’s Apollo and Starbuck. A lot of critics of the new series were expecting these two to get together within seconds of the first episode. Take that, naysayers! It actually works when the characters have time to grow into an appreciation of each other. Or rather, when Apollo starts recognizing that a hot pilot with a rebellious streak is more than just a strange reflection of himself. I don’t see Kara settling down with Lee anytime soon, but would any future return for Anders be much fun if there wasn’t personal conflict for Kara in the process?

The next episode should see, based on the promos and the podcast, the next turn in the plot arc. The whole “Arrow of Apollo” thing ought to get a payoff, and Adama’s desire for some kind of confrontation with Boomer (even if it’s a different one than the one who shot him) should come to fruition. I don’t want to see this more serialized storytelling disappear completely, but it ought to be satisfying to see so many plot threads come to momentary fulfillment.

[Easter Lily]

Here's my take on Lee Adama: he's a military brat. His father is a decorated officer and hero, and Lee went into the armed forces either to please his father or because he simply knew no other way to be. Probably got a cushy assignment far away from any potential combat, thanks to Bill Adama, and even though he's an officer he's just not used to actually commanding men, let alone leading them into battle. He's the "golden boy" of the fleet, but not really much of a soldier. A good pilot, but flying under actual fire is a new experience for him. He was simply not prepared to step up and become a CAG in a time of war (then again, I guess the whole point is that NO ONE was prepared for this). If you recall some of the early exchanges between Apollo and Starbuck, you'll see that he's clearly not used to giving orders and handing out discipline, and Starbuck actually calls him on that several times. In a sense Starbuck is a more natural warrior than Apollo. She really should be the CAG, if only her discipline problems were under control.

Well, it boils down to two things for me: what you mean by a "natural warrior" and does being a "natural warrior" necessarily mean a better leader? Being CAG is as much a leadership issue as a military one.
I suspect that we must be watching two different versions of BSG because the one I've been watching tells me that Lee is a very good CAG... at least the other characters in the show seem to think so.
Col Tigh, heaven forbid, thinks he's so good that he gets him out of the brig on parole to deal with the cylon attack. In the Valley of Darkness, Lee certainly took the bull by the horns during the cylon incursion and got people organized. Furthermore, his pilots love him seen in the way they clamoured for his full return in Resistance. In Fragged, he took the initiative to go down to Kobol to look for Crashdown's team while Tigh was de-stressing with alcohol therapy. Dee even hinted in no uncertain terms that he'd do a better job than Tigh. Even the new CAG said as much, "I was a tremendous supporter of your son, Capt Adama, he was a great leader." And twice in this episode, Adama and Tigh remind each other that any new CAG would be "no Apollo".

Whether Kara would do a better job, is difficult to say. She is the fleet's best pilot and can kick all manner of behind with the best of them but whether that translates to administration and organizing people is another thing

[Buggy542]

What makes us human is our genetic code, nothing else. Not morality or murder or art or literature or baseball or lipstick. Genetics are the only thing that truly defines us as homo sapien and seperates us from other organisms.

Genetics... programming... they both seam very similar to me... What do genetics do? They give the body instructions, what to do on a subconscious level. "Make this type of cell here, another type there". What does programming do? It gives a computer instructions, what to do when this button is pressed, or what to run when another button is pressed. The difference between them would be that on top of the genetics humans have the ability to think and make choices, whereas computers don't have that type of higher thought. But isn't that what AI is? Higher thought? So when it comes down to it, humans and cylons wouldn't be that different if they didn't hold to their beliefs, customs, "morality or murder or art or literature or baseball or lipstick". It's our history that's going to make us different, not what we're made of.

Roslin points out that it doesn't matter whether she really loves him or not, just that she thinks she does. She's been programmed to have a seemingly emotional attatchment to Helo but in the end it's still just lines of code being processed according to preset instructions.

Humans have preset instructions too... If you think about it that code is very similar to our instincts. It's deeply wired within our brains that mating is good. Just like it's wired into us that we need to eat, sleep, and do everything else associated with life. Most humans have a fascination with flame, which it has been suggested is probably something left over from our cave dwelling times when fire meant warmth, light, and safety. Sharon loves Helo, her code tells her to love Helo. Helo loves Sharon, his instincts are what's driving him - albeit on the most basic level - to love her. Are they so different?


Anyway, I'll shut up now because I'm starting to repeat myself. And I'm not trying to be mean or anything, just in case my thoughts came off as such. I just don't happen to agree with you...

An interesting fic on this type of thing is 'Twelve' by Rhianna. It's rated R for containing some... shippiness... but you can skip over that stuff if you're sensitive to it.

[Droops]

Then we disagree because I wouldn't see a Cylon as a human being. I don't care if it was brought up to think it was a human, it's still a machine. Artificial intelligence is still artificial, it's still software.

Which, I think, brings up some interesting questions about the human race. If someone is conceived in a test tube, are they human? If there are ever clones of someone, are THEY human?

If we start implanting ourselves with machines, which we already have (pacemakers for example), are we still human? If we implant a mobile cell phone in our heads and a sub-vocalizing microphone in our throats, are we still human? Is there a point where we lose our humanity?

And if the cylons take on human form, bleed like humans, have emotions like humans, can become pregnant by humans, are they still cylons?

I think this is one of the central questions that the show is trying to raise.

[FeloniousMonk]

But isn't that what AI is? Higher thought?

Nope. Artificial intelligence is just that - artificial. It's complex programming that mimics sentience.

You have a point in that genetics are a type of programming but that's biology, not technology. The programming that directs Cylon "thoughts" comes from bits of digital code while the programming that our DNA directs comes from actual life. The programming controlling a Cylon was, at its' core, at some point created by a person with sentience (ie, whoever built the first colonial computer) and was a product of technology, a machine. Thus anything that stems from that discovery will forever be based on a machine.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me Just because we don't share points of view doesn't mean anything. We are human, after all...










..mostly

[Buggy542]

Nope. Artificial intelligence is just that - artificial. It's complex programming that mimics sentience.

You have a point in that genetics are a type of programming but that's biology, not technology. The programming that directs Cylon "thoughts" comes from bits of digital code while the programming that our DNA directs comes from actual life. The programming controlling a Cylon was, at its' core, at some point created by a person with sentience (ie, whoever built the first colonial computer) and was a product of technology, a machine. Thus anything that stems from that discovery will forever be based on a machine.

True. It all depends on where you draw the line I guess. I'm not saying that they are exactly the same, just that they're so similar I would consider them to be human now, even if they're really not originally. Boomer managed to fool everyone for a year - maybe longer depending on how the cylons create and distribute the copies - and during that time she was human because no one suspected otherwise (except herself but I won't get into that ).

I don't even know where I was going with this... I guess my point is that faced with the decision about what to do with Boomer, I don't think I'd be as hasty to toss her out the airlock as Roslin was. To me she's kinda like a person with multiple personalities, we don't punish people with that type of problem in our society today, so maybe we should just use extreme caution. Look out for the times when she's an active cylon agent, and treat her as a normal person when we know she's trying to be one.

This is all very idealistic of course… Nothing of the like would ever work unless there was some concrete way to either tell when she's being influenced by the collective, or prevent them from influencing her at all. Until such time as that's possible I think they'd better keep her because not only is she nice 90% of the time, she also might have some valuable information that wouldn't be able to be salvaged if she was a body floating in space.

I have no issue with people disagreeing with me Just because we don't share points of view doesn't mean anything. We are human, after all...







..mostly

Hopefully mostly.