The Disquiet That Follows My Soul (412)

[LoneStar1836]

You're plugging plot holes for the writers - that's not your job - that's theirs to do by writing honestly...

Well if you think so, but I don't.

I don't see Cally's death as a plot hole. I didn't back then, and I don't now with the new revelation that Cally knew that Nick was not Tyrol's.

I was merely pointing out that in real life people kill their own children for twisted reasons...and generally those people are not in a sane state of mind when they do it. Cally was planning on killing Nick for some reason really only know to her, but I can speculate on possible motivations and not need to rely on the writers to spell it out in black and white as to why she took Nick into the airlock with her because I can find it perfectly believable that she would do it even knowing the kid wasn't part Cylon.

Tory, the hot Hindu Cylon, would have happily disposed of both human mommy and child to protect her secret in the fleet (her secret golem-cylon identity), no? What would've stopped her?

You've lost me there.

Tory knew what we knew at the time...the kid was Tyrol's. Tyrol being a Cylon and all...well you'd want to not airlock the half Cylon child just because he's one of you. I'd think that would be reason enough for her to talk Cally into backing down so you could send a right hook her way, take the child, and airlock the threat.

So what if the kid turned out not to be the Chief's. Didn't make the impact of her death any less meaningful. I mean Cally was going to off herself and the kid without Tory's help anyway. Doesn't matter to me that we now know that Nick was Hot Dog's kid, and she still intended to kill Nick anyway in her deranged mental state. Tory intervened, saved Nick, and then murdered Cally. Who the kid's biological father is has no impact on any of that for me.

I never really thought she was intending to kill Nick because he was half Cylon anyway, but that's just me. Her walking into that airlock was more about herself than Nick. Apparently other people saw that as part of her motivation though.

We've lost that thread, it's been subsumed in the writing of the 'galactica bible' - the notion that the promises of the Uber-Six we first knew in Baltar's head, regarding 'their child' (she and Baltar's), being born through Sharon and Helo...

Look, it's a crap-up in the writing - no reason to not have a dozen mixed-lineage kids. No reason to say that Baltar's dreams were absolutely accurate or universal - they drove him to whatever purposes - the grounding of the fleet on New Caprica, the nuclear annihilation of the pretty forest ship (Cloud 9), and his conversion to One-God-ism.

They just got stuck in writer's cramp, a leg-lock, an overly literal position that they, or Moore, or whomever, thought they had to uphold.

Or, what's the more interesting question that comes out of the multiple pairings of Cylon and human, or Cylon and 'replicant'-Cylon?

The deeper questions go to - 'what is humanity? what is it to feel, to dream, to be alive, to be conscious? To have a conscience? To be a spiritual entity?'

I dislike the slavish attention to internal 'prophecy' over honest character development.

There is no reason to have a dozen mixed-lineage kids. The story was not conceived that way, and the writers have chosen to stay focused on their original concept of having Hera be the special one. And I for one am fine with that.

I'm not exactly sure what kind of character development of having another hybrid kid brings to the story that you don't already get.

The show already explores all those deeper questions you posed without the aid of Nick's existence.

Tory, the replicant, threw poor, wane, passive-aggressive Cally into space, and not her child - because the Child was a Cylon, and Tory the Cylon felt this to be so, or the child would've joined the mother.

The character had no relationship with any other male, was intensely, suicidally loyal to the 'replicant'-Chief, to the point of being beaten brutally by him - and wanting more. Not a 'cheating wife' by any previous measure - it was just written in as a plot convenience.

The reason the writers have altered this internal logical reality, is to adhere to an oppositional preconceived and determined notion of the number of 'mixed' children, and the ultimate progression or position of the chief's character...

Poor Cally. To die for bad writing. And among so much good writing!

Tory is not a Cylon detector. She only knew what everyone else knew at the time (excluding our favorite cancer stick smoking doctor)...that Nick was Tyrol's.

Cally was pregnant before they got married so she wasn't exactly obligated to the Chief. Just because she had strong feelings for him prior to them getting together, doesn't preclude her from sleeping around with some other guy. Though I figure the thing with Hot Dog was probably a one night thing. Not out of the realm of possibility, imo.

Was it a cheap and easy fix to not having to deal with Nick as a hybrid? Sure. But I think it focuses the story more. Now we don't have that loose end out there that needs an answer and needs to fit in with the larger picture. They just have Helo and Athena's kid to have to deal with...since Six isn't having hers anytime soon. Keeps the story focused and fits with their original idea/plan from season one. Besides if they all turn out to be Cylons, then it really won't matter.

[the fifth man]

Actually, I enjoyed this episode even more after watching it again tonight. Was it a slower BSG episode - Yes. Was it boring?- NO.

[BobBot]

"No" - Patrick Henry (I'm paraphrasing)

Okay, that's your opinion. But remember, it's your opinion and not fact.

The show is very good at not being black-and-white. No one is 'good' or 'bad', sometimes people do things that are interpreted as being beneficial, sometimes they do things that are seen as detrimental. Adama is working to one goal: keep the remaining humans alive. If he has to take over the government to do so, that to me is the correct action. Without order, the human race cannot survive - better for a few democrats to commit suicide upon hearing Adama has seized control than for the whole race to be lost. But on top of that, the civil discord and the increased suicides, it's not going to be long before there is no human left alive in the fleet...

[LoneStar1836]

Wow, the tables have turned. Folks are now questioning BSG's plotholes. Wow this is all so familar.

It's not like plot hole questioning is something foreign to the BSG forum here on GW.

They are just not something that a lot of people consider to be jarring in ever single episode.


BTW, I don't see any plot hole. So I don't know what you are on about.

[Briangate78]

It's not like plot hole questioning is something foreign to the BSG forum here on GW.

They are just not something that a lot of people consider to be jarring in ever single episode.


BTW, I don't see any plot hole. So I don't know what you are on about.

I am just tired of people in general, not this forum but in general putting BSG on such a high platform and that it is flawless. It is not, no show is flawless. You should read SyFYportal. Any other show compared to BSG is crap.

My opinion, it was a plothole. Cally would of no way tried to kill her baby if she knew the father was not a Cylon. But that is my opinion.

[LoneStar1836]

^^^^Well I don't read SyFYportal with any kind of regularity. Don'tcha know journalism (if you can still call it that) is rarely fair and balanced these days.

The show is very good at not being black-and-white. No one is 'good' or 'bad', sometimes people do things that are interpreted as being beneficial, sometimes they do things that are seen as detrimental. Adama is working to one goal: keep the remaining humans alive. If he has to take over the government to do so, that to me is the correct action. Without order, the human race cannot survive - better for a few democrats to commit suicide upon hearing Adama has seized control than for the whole race to be lost. But on top of that, the civil discord and the increased suicides, it's not going to be long before there is no human left alive in the fleet...

That's basically how I felt back when Roslin stabbed Adama in the back (by talking Starbuck into going after the arrow) and split the fleet. I was all for the dictator I knew, especially since he was the one with the military and the big ship with all the guns.

Having a vote and representation in the Quorum wasn't exactly going to protect me when a Cylon basestar showed up.


So once again I am on the side of Adama in this episode because I still want that military protection since Cavil's group is still out there somewhere. As horrible as it sounds that now your head military man wants to team up with a faction of the enemy for the benefit of the fleet, it's actually the more sound idea considering what they are offering (jump drive upgrades). And assuming they will only get one member on the Quorum, then they won't be able to set policy and take over the government. Can you completely trust them? No, but then they can't completely trust you either.

I mean I can completely see the other side of the coin because these Cylons murdered billions, destroyed your life, and chased you down in a attempt to finish the job. And now you are just supposed to accept them into the fleet as Colonial citizens and afford them the same civil rights and military protections.



And to draw from present day real life, this is similar to what the US military did in Iraq...they teamed up with Sunnis in Anbar to fight the most extreme AQ terrorist factions. These were the same local Sunni militia groups that had been attacking and killing American soldiers and civilian contractors all that time until they decided that the foreign AQ terrorists were not in their best interest either. So American soldiers were out patrolling side by side with people who had recently tried to kill them. I'm sure similar events have happened throughout history, but the Iraq example is the most recent and comes to mind first.

[fwupow]

Removal of baby Nick as a cylon hybrid was a big question resolved.

I stand corrected. I guess it just wasn't a concern of mine.

I regard to babies. I'm thinking that Tigh and #6's baby will be a boy and named Zeus. He along with Hera will be the progenitors of all. They will be the Adam & Eve of the next cycle of life.

In Exodus pt1, an oracle tells a #3 that Hera was "wife and sister" of Zeus.

Hera will be sister in the sense that she will be raised by common parents (Baltar & #6) in a new beginning, perhaps on Kobol "the birthplace of us all".

Ok, I've lost my mind already. I had better go back to bed.

[BG1]

Hello, I'm new here and recently watched all the BSGs from the beginning so I could watch the final episodes with the rest of the world. I don't have to tell you all how great it's been and I'm so glad I decided to give it a chance.

I wanted to share my thoughts on two issues I see coming up on these boards. The first being whether the "Earth" found in Revalations is "our Earth" and the second being whether Roslin is the dying leader. These two go hand in hand with each other.

To start off, writers of these type of shows with mysteries and big reveals often do things in a very "lawyerly" fashion. They will give you the impression that something is true or false. It is only an impression though and they have enough wiggle room to later tell you something along the lines of "ah, but that was your assumption based on what you saw/what we showed you but we never actually SAID that".

Prime example of this was the question posed to Mr Moore:

"That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. "

Did Mr Moore attend law school? He deftly answers the first part of the question while totally ignoring the second part. There is a Dublin in Ohio. The people who settled there christened it Dublin. If you were to go there and ask "did I find Dublin?" the answer is truthfully and correctly yes. If you ask "is this the only Dublin?" the answer is no, hence why he deliberately ignored the second part of the question. To top it off, they also deliberately obscure the continents of the wasted Earth from view from space while gratuitously showing the U.S. at the end of Crossroads. This is the "ah you assumed it was our Earth but if you look back we never actually showed you it was".

IMO he should have given that question a "no comment" and ask the writer to strike it from the interview because to me he gave away the whole thing right there. Another huge spoiler IMO is in the commercials for the final episodes. You see Roslin with the wig, glasses and suit yell "I'm coming after all of you!". This of course shows she is back in command and takes the suspense out of her current condition.

Thus Roslin is back in command, still dying, and "our Earth" is still out there waiting to be discovered.

This of course is just my opinion but having said that I believe it is painfully obvious.

[Back40]

Hello, I'm new here and recently watched all the BSGs from the beginning so I could watch the final episodes with the rest of the world. I don't have to tell you all how great it's been and I'm so glad I decided to give it a chance.

I wanted to share my thoughts on two issues I see coming up on these boards. The first being whether the "Earth" found in Revalations is "our Earth" and the second being whether Roslin is the dying leader. These two go hand in hand with each other.

To start off, writers of these type of shows with mysteries and big reveals often do things in a very "lawyerly" fashion. They will give you the impression that something is true or false. It is only an impression though and they have enough wiggle room to later tell you something along the lines of "ah, but that was your assumption based on what you saw/what we showed you but we never actually SAID that".

Prime example of this was the question posed to Mr Moore:

"That planet is Earth? We’re not going to find out, “Oh, there’s this other Earth over here...” This is the only Earth we’ll see?

They have found Earth. This is the Earth that the 13th Colony discovered, they christened it Earth. They found Earth. "

Did Mr Moore attend law school? He deftly answers the first part of the question while totally ignoring the second part. There is a Dublin in Ohio. The people who settled there christened it Dublin. If you were to go there and ask "did I find Dublin?" the answer is truthfully and correctly yes. If you ask "is this the only Dublin?" the answer is no, hence why he deliberately ignored the second part of the question. To top it off, they also deliberately obscure the continents of the wasted Earth from view from space while gratuitously showing the U.S. at the end of Crossroads. This is the "ah you assumed it was our Earth but if you look back we never actually showed you it was".

IMO he should have given that question a "no comment" and ask the writer to strike it from the interview because to me he gave away the whole thing right there. Another huge spoiler IMO is in the commercials for the final episodes. You see Roslin with the wig, glasses and suit yell "I'm coming after all of you!". This of course shows she is back in command and takes the suspense out of her current condition.

Thus Roslin is back in command, still dying, and "our Earth" is still out there waiting to be discovered.

This of course is just my opinion but having said that I believe it is painfully obvious.

Welcome to the forum! My post from the (411) Sometimes a Great Notion thread. An alternative solution - Earth is really Earth, but it is not the "new homeland" of the prophecy.

This has probably been mentioned in another thread somewhere, but thought I would bring it up here, seeing as Laura has now had her book-burning party with the Pythian prophecies.

Maybe it's just my faulty memory, but I don't remember ever hearing in any of the quotes from the Pythian prophecies that the Dying Leader would lead the people to Earth. I remember quotes that the Thirteenth Tribe relocated on Earth after the exodus, I remember quotes regarding the instructions for getting to Earth, but I don't remember a quote about the people being lead to Earth.

What I DO remember is the following quote: And the Lords anointed a leader to guide the caravan of the heavens to their new homeland. "New homeland". Not "Earth". Up to now, the prophecies have been accurate. If Laura Roslin is the Dying Leader, then they may have misinterpreted the prophecy as new homeland = Earth. Which would explain why she was still alive when they reached it; "And the Leader suffered a wasting illness and would not live to enter the new land". Either that or the planet they reached is NOT Earth at all.

So maybe the Dying Leader's role is not yet finished and Laura needs to dig up another copy of the prophecies.

[BobBot]

And to draw from present day real life, this is similar to what the US military did in Iraq...they teamed up with Sunnis in Anbar to fight the most extreme AQ terrorist factions. These were the same local Sunni militia groups that had been attacking and killing American soldiers and civilian contractors all that time until they decided that the foreign AQ terrorists were not in their best interest either. So American soldiers were out patrolling side by side with people who had recently tried to kill them. I'm sure similar events have happened throughout history, but the Iraq example is the most recent and comes to mind first.

Yes, exactly. Though let's not forget the other side of the coin - America trained a certain Osama bin Laden in guerrilla warfare so he could fight the Soviets, and look how that turned out when America turned their backs on the fighters once the Soviet Union collapsed. It's all going to end in tears no matter what choices Adama makes.

[Night Marshal]

My biggest issues are Adama illness and Hotdog fatherhood. They just come out of left field and while if they had planned out the show better rather than the "organic" writing Ron Moore loves so much you could have set these things up and they wouldn't feel so random.

As to the episode itself. What it lacks is focus plan and simple there is nothing really driving the plot aside from the need to set things up. As other have said if you had put the tillum ship jumping away at the start of the episode and created that drama then bring Zarick over to Galactica, set up the coup and the vote by the Quorum. To be honest not know anything of what is to come this really seems to be a case of bad editing because the parts are there but what shows up doesn't seem to work all that well. Oh well at least they realized they couldn't as dark as last week two weeks in a row.

[Replicator Todd]

I like how a line has been made between people for and agianst the Cylon-Human Alliance, a war would deplete what is left of the human race! But it looks like that might not stop them.

[huntress]

From the commercials the guy that did Nixon was really fake, he didn't look and didn't even sound like Nixon. It was just another old hippie version of a imaginary Nixon....they should
have done a movie on the Clinton white house...now that would be scary..

Sorry for going OT but the stupidity of this post just amazes me. So you have seen a commercial on the telly and declare are movie as crap without having seen it? Oh boy..... -_-

[huntress]

Did Mr Moore attend law school?

Welcome BG1 to GateWorld. I hope you like it here and to answer your question - no he didn't. He studied political science at Cornell

[Skydiver]

nudges people back on the topic