The Political Discussion Thread

[mad_gater]

I gather you oppose sending the National Guard to the border. You oppose the wall. How would you establish control of the border and stop illegal immigration? The answer of not stopping it or not establishing control is not acceptable.




So, what are we supposed to do? Just continue to allow China to dump steel and other products on our markets? Sorry, wrong answer.

Yeah we could fight a tariff war with China (and others). However the only losers in a tariff war are the consumers on BOTH sides of the proverbial fence. I wonder what happened to competing in the global marketplace on the basis of quality of goods/services offered rather than simply engaging in tariff wars with everybody? The USA used to produced quality goods that lasted. For example, we recently got rid of a stand mixer we had that was made in the USA that had lasted us a good 40+ years. We need to get back to producing quality goods that last and let that be our selling point in the global market. However I also suspect that the "tariff genie" is going to be a difficult one to put back into the bottle.

[Coco Pops]

This tarrif war is a bunch of crap.

Whatever happened to competing in the global market? Competition is what makes things thrive and adapt, unless you are saying that you want everything to go America's way and that IS NOT competing is it now?

So yeah crap.

[Annoyed]

Yeah we could fight a tariff war with China (and others). However the only losers in a tariff war are the consumers on BOTH sides of the proverbial fence. I wonder what happened to competing in the global marketplace on the basis of quality of goods/services offered rather than simply engaging in tariff wars with everybody? The USA used to produced quality goods that lasted. For example, we recently got rid of a stand mixer we had that was made in the USA that had lasted us a good 40+ years. We need to get back to producing quality goods that last and let that be our selling point in the global market. However I also suspect that the "tariff genie" is going to be a difficult one to put back into the bottle.

In an ideal world, competing on the global marketplace would be a good idea. But this is far from an ideal world.
In the real world, other nations stack the deck in their favor. How many offshore manufacturers use child & or forced labor to make products that are then sold in the US? Or don't require that their manufacturers meet health and safety standards that ours have to meet? What about currency manipulation, where a nation will artificially manipulate the value of their currency to give themselves a financial leg up over US workers? Or where the foreign governments outright subsidize their manufacturers? Or situations where US corporations move labor to nations where the cost of living, and therefore the wages paid to workers are pennies to the dollar in comparison to US costs/wages? Ever wonder why you can't understand the guy on the tech support line?

Certainly, some industries have shot themselves in the foot *cough* US automakers; GM should be out of business by now, and Chrysler should have gone belly-up in 1979. And the vast majority of MBA'ed idiots can't look past this week's bottom line, so of course, quality goes out the window.

But many other nations have more than adequately demonstrated that they will not play on a level playing field. So screw 'em.

[mad_gater]

In an ideal world, competing on the global marketplace would be a good idea. But this is far from an ideal world.
In the real world, other nations stack the deck in their favor. How many offshore manufacturers use child & or forced labor to make products that are then sold in the US? Or don't require that their manufacturers meet health and safety standards that ours have to meet? What about currency manipulation, where a nation will artificially manipulate the value of their currency to give themselves a financial leg up over US workers? Or where the foreign governments outright subsidize their manufacturers? Or situations where US corporations move labor to nations where the cost of living, and therefore the wages paid to workers are pennies to the dollar in comparison to US costs/wages? Ever wonder why you can't understand the guy on the tech support line?

Certainly, some industries have shot themselves in the foot *cough* US automakers; GM should be out of business by now, and Chrysler should have gone belly-up in 1979. And the vast majority of MBA'ed idiots can't look past this week's bottom line, so of course, quality goes out the window.

But many other nations have more than adequately demonstrated that they will not play on a level playing field. So screw 'em.

There are of course other means that could be employed either in addition to or in lieu of engaging in a direct tariff war. Though many of these other means would amount to indirect tariffs anyway, such as making it illegal to import anything from countries that do the things you mention and levying heavy fines against our import companies who do. And making it illegal to outsource labor off-shore and levying hefty fines against those who do. And even more heavy-handed would be the US Postal Service (and other global shipping companies such as Fed-Ex and UPS) charging shipping rates to foreign entities that do the things you describe a very very vastly inflated shipping rate, though that presumes they outsource their shipping needs with these shipping companies and don't simply use their own ships to send us their stuff. Which leads us to an option for if you really REALLY wanna play economic hardball with these foreign business entities...blockading our harbor ports and turning away ships carrying foreign goods for importation into our borders, with rather dire results for anybody that tries to run their ship though the blockade. That would be a pretty aggressive option, however.

[SoulReaver]

Mexico might actually pay for it then.

hey Mexico could actually need their own wall one day - to keep americans out (when Trump's interior policy sends them fleeing south)

[Womble]

The tariffs are specifically targeted to middle America.

They aren't. They are targeting the main categories of imported goods from the USA. Most of them happen to come from the American Midwest because that's where the American manufacturing industry and agriculture mostly are. But California winemakers and some other blue state industries will be hit hard.

I think people who support Trump's trade war don't understand how modern-day supply chains work. Those "made in China" and "made in America" labels indicate point of assembly more than the sourcing of components or on which side profits end up.

China imports Boeing planes; it also supplies Boeing with wing panels and doors which go into those planes, and those are made from American aluminium; construction materials imported from China to USA are made from raw materials which USA exports to China. Electronics assembled in China use raw materials and components sourced from a dizzying number of countries worldwide, USA included. When you hit China with tariffs, you hit American manufacturers with tariffs. It's a given.

And American manufacturers under tariffs means American jobs lost.

[Falcon Horus]

I gather you oppose sending the National Guard to the border. You oppose the wall. How would you establish control of the border and stop illegal immigration? The answer of not stopping it or not establishing control is not acceptable.

Where do you gather the opposition from?
Because I did not say such thing. I just laid out the facts currently known.

You do with your border as you like -- there's already a wall, barbed wire, regular controls (?) of border agents. It's impossible to wall it off entirely, seeing as how there are parts where you have water dividing the US from Mexico. You also can't build a wall on every inch of it that isn't water.

People who already make the journey, knowing it's hell to do so, will not be stopped by a wall or the National Guard (whom nodobdy really knows is going to do being -- shoot immigrants? Good thing the US never ratified the Geneva convention). Most of those people are not coming on, on first class immigration runs. They risk their lives to get to the other side (no sane man/woman/child would undertake on any given day).

My problem is mostly that Trumpiewumpie has no clue about the actual immigration facts and just makes stuff up that sound good enough to justify his actions. He doesn't have the first clue, immigration is at an all-time low. Doesn't have a clue, because it's boring, about anything really -- not even his brilliant plan to tariff China into the ground.

So, what are we supposed to do? Just continue to allow China to dump steel and other products on our markets? Sorry, wrong answer.

And neither do you seem to have a clue about the tariffs and the economy. I just read an interesting article about it -- a lot of people who do know what they're talking about are frowning upon the lack of knowlegde your president has on the whole China/US trade balance.

His black and white view of loosing and winning, means he's missing the bigger picture.

You keep trying to convince me that voting for Trump was a mistake. You will fail.
He is not perfect, but is by far the best choice we had.

Wait till the consequences of the tariffs hit...

Yeah we could fight a tariff war with China (and others). However the only losers in a tariff war are the consumers on BOTH sides of the proverbial fence.

Indeed.

Ever wonder why you can't understand the guy on the tech support line?

Microsoft helpdesk: I ended up in the US, before I was rerouted to Ireland instead. And the Irish dude asked if I wanted to speak to a Dutch speaking colleague which I said was quite alright, he would do just fine.

But many other nations have more than adequately demonstrated that they will not play on a level playing field. So screw 'em.

Other nations want to sit around the table and want to discuss a strategy against China's intellectual property theft, which is the only thing Trumpiewumpie has point about. But all he can think of is winning or loosing, so nothing will be done about it, except pointless tariffs which will shoot America in the foot in the long run (which aren't his problems then).

hey Mexico could actually need their own wall one day - to keep americans out (when Trump's interior policy sends them fleeing south)

I think they'll go north instead. Canada and Mexico could build it together. Create another open air prison -- Israel can consult how they did it with Gaza.

They aren't. They are targeting the main categories of imported goods from the USA. Most of them happen to come from the American Midwest because that's where the American manufacturing industry and agriculture mostly are. But California winemakers and some other blue state industries will be hit hard.

I think people who support Trump's trade war don't understand how modern-day supply chains work. Those "made in China" and "made in America" labels indicate point of assembly more than the sourcing of components or on which side profits end up.

China imports Boeing planes; it also supplies Boeing with wing panels and doors which go into those planes, and those are made from American aluminium; construction materials imported from China to USA are made from raw materials which USA exports to China. Electronics assembled in China use raw materials and components sourced from a dizzying number of countries worldwide, USA included. When you hit China with tariffs, you hit American manufacturers with tariffs. It's a given.

And American manufacturers under tariffs means American jobs lost.

What he said.

[Coco Pops]

Who needs facts?

Facts just get in the way of whatever junk you are trying to make up.

For instance

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.4b1219dc372d

But women are joining this caravan of refugees to GET AWAY FROM the rape gangs and find a better life.

But no let's demonize them.

[LtColCarter]

Who needs facts?

Facts just get in the way of whatever junk you are trying to make up.

For instance

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.4b1219dc372d

But women are joining this caravan of refugees to GET AWAY FROM the rape gangs and find a better life.

But no let's demonize them.

Of course...Mango Mussolini and his disciples can't be bothered by facts.

[aretood2]

In an ideal world, competing on the global marketplace would be a good idea. But this is far from an ideal world.

That's what your homeboy Karl said.

In the real world, other nations stack the deck in their favor. How many offshore manufacturers use child & or forced labor to make products that are then sold in the US? Or don't require that their manufacturers meet health and safety standards that ours have to meet? What about currency manipulation, where a nation will artificially manipulate the value of their currency to give themselves a financial leg up over US workers? Or where the foreign governments outright subsidize their manufacturers? Or situations where US corporations move labor to nations where the cost of living, and therefore the wages paid to workers are pennies to the dollar in comparison to US costs/wages? Ever wonder why you can't understand the guy on the tech support line?

What US workers? The only ones "hurt" are the low tech manufacturing workers which are a very small minority that for some reason gets priority over the other 90% of the workforce. And most of the damage is self inflicted, it's the result of the companies banking on American Government subsidies and protectionism. They relied on those two and that's why they gave the Unions so much. It was poor decisions, plane and simple. You have a point on some of your claims when it comes to China, but what about all the other countries? You don't much of any point there.

As for the cost of living, it's those imports that keep our cost of living from exploding out of control because that competition keeps prices low. For example, if Canadian pharmaceuticals were allowed to sell their drugs here in the US, prices would plummet because their prices are that much lower, and it's not lower because of a lack of quality as the much higher Canadian life expectancy (among other things) indicate. But such imports are illegal, so our prices are ridiculously high which is a cause of high insurance premiums.

Certainly, some industries have shot themselves in the foot *cough* US automakers; GM should be out of business by now, and Chrysler should have gone belly-up in 1979. And the vast majority of MBA'ed idiots can't look past this week's bottom line, so of course, quality goes out the window.

The questions is why reward them by protecting them from competition? The most important aspect of the free market is competition. Without it, Capitalism spirals out of control like for example, pharmaceuticals and cable.

But many other nations have more than adequately demonstrated that they will not play on a level playing field. So screw 'em.

How? When did they ever demonstrate that? What facts do you have to back that up? I mean, other than China. Trade doesn't have "winners" or "losers". I can't stress it enough. The "trade deficit" isn't like the budget deficit. It doesn't mean that we are somehow "losing" money. It's also not a straight indicator of the job market. There are correlations at times (not always) and correlations don't mean causation. It's like Ice Cream and crime. Ice Cream sales increase in the summer, and so does crime. But that doesn't mean that Ice Cream causes crime. It's that both are caused by another variable for different reasons. Criminals like to commit crime more so in the Summer and kids like to eat Ice Cream more so in the summer. The two are not related to each other.

[Coco Pops]

Say bye bye to the EPA

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...house-bill/861

[Annoyed]

Stop trying to rattle the cage. That hasn't a chance in hell of passing both houses of Congress.
Sort of like some Democrats starting the articles of impeachment against Trump

It ain't going to happen, certainly not under this Congress.

And I don't think it could gain much support from most Republicans, either. I wouldn't support it. Is the EPA a bloated, overreaching federal bureaucracy that needs to be severely reigned in? Absolutely. Should it be closed altogether? No.

[Annoyed]

What US workers? The only ones "hurt" are the low tech manufacturing workers which are a very small minority that for some reason gets priority over the other 90% of the workforce. And most of the damage is self inflicted, it's the result of the companies banking on American Government subsidies and protectionism. They relied on those two and that's why they gave the Unions so much. It was poor decisions, plane and simple. You have a point on some of your claims when it comes to China, but what about all the other countries? You don't much of any point there.

A small minority? I think not. According to: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/educati...ial-challenges only 40% of the US workforce has a college degree. 60% is the majority, my friend, not a small minority.

You're right, some of the damage is self inflicted, such as the auto industry, thanks the the greed of their unions and the stupidity of management to agree to their demands. By rights, GM should have gone bankrupt, and Chrysler should have done the same way back in 1979.

But the fact is that 60% of our workers aren't college graduates. Some people can't hack college, others simply can't take the time to do it while supporting themselves. Our economy should provide employment for this large part of the population.

[aretood2]

A small minority? I think not. According to: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/educati...ial-challenges only 40% of the US workforce has a college degree. 60% is the majority, my friend, not a small minority.

You're right, some of the damage is self inflicted, such as the auto industry, thanks the the greed of their unions and the stupidity of management to agree to their demands. By rights, GM should have gone bankrupt, and Chrysler should have done the same way back in 1979.

But the fact is that 60% of our workers aren't college graduates. Some people can't hack college, others simply can't take the time to do it while supporting themselves. Our economy should provide employment for this large part of the population.

That 60% includes retail workers, hotel staff, admin support staff in various businesses, schools, and agencies, custodial staff, apartment supers, plumbers, electricians, A/C repairmen, mechanics, park workers, amusement park workers, zoo workers, domestic workers, drivers, warehouse workers, ship crews, construction workers, and so on. All of which have nothing to do with manufacturing in assembly lines. Low tech Manufacturing workers are a small minority.

[Gatefan1976]

Reading what stats actually reflect requires edumacation, and Annoyed is a Pink Floyd fan in that regard.