The Political Discussion Thread

[garhkal]

Those are two of the biggest economic centers in the US. Why would you be surprised?

I just figured if we did separate, many of the business/companies that are there, would move to friendlier areas..

[Annoyed]

This got me thinking. I find it hard to believe that a German victory would have to include a Japanese victory. Japan simply couldn't sustain open warfare with the US, nor prevent it. It lacked the industrial capability to do so. So let's say Germany stayed away from the US and decided that Japan was a lost cause. Japan surrenders.

Japanese victory, except in cooperation with the Germans was never possible as things played out. And that would have been only for as long as the Germans needed Japan.
What would have made a difference is if our carriers, Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga? had been in Pearl on 12/7/41. Denied those ships, we would have had a mighty tough go of establishing control of the pacific. We just got damned lucky that they were out, and the leadership of the Japanese navy (which knew they were absent at strike time) didn't consider them important enough to schedule the attack around. It hadn't yet dawned on either side that the Carrier was about to render the Battleship obsolete.

[SoulReaver]

Nah. The Califunny Rockies will keep it contained to the coast areas. So Good Bye Califunny! You sucked but I guess Hollywood will be missed but not for long.

if that's how you think mountains work then your head's in the clouds +_-

[aretood2]

I just figured if we did separate, many of the business/companies that are there, would move to friendlier areas..

They could easily move to Texas today, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Unless there are real radical changes, I don't see it happening in the scenario either.

Japanese victory, except in cooperation with the Germans was never possible as things played out. And that would have been only for as long as the Germans needed Japan.
What would have made a difference is if our carriers, Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga? had been in Pearl on 12/7/41. Denied those ships, we would have had a mighty tough go of establishing control of the pacific. We just got damned lucky that they were out, and the leadership of the Japanese navy (which knew they were absent at strike time) didn't consider them important enough to schedule the attack around. It hadn't yet dawned on either side that the Carrier was about to render the Battleship obsolete.

An Atlantic War would then be fought until the US got a nuke and then it's a race to nuclear winter a bit earlier than what I wrote, unless war exhaustion takes place in the US forcing it to come to peace with Germany. But unless major US cities go up in mushroom clouds, I don't see how anyone would support peace with Japan. It really comes down to who gets the nuke first, and I doubt it would be the Germans unless the US enters the war later in the game, but even then it would still require a lot of luck on the German program to beat the US at a nuke.

[SoulReaver]

weren't the germans supposed to be only a few weeks away from getting their own nuke when the allies bombed their secret base (and that's thanks to some rogue german scientists who sabotaged their own research else they'd have made it before the US)

[aretood2]

weren't the germans supposed to be only a few weeks away from getting their own nuke when the allies bombed their secret base (and that's thanks to some german scientists who sabotaged their own research else they'd have had their bomb before the US)

In short? No. They didn't even come close. They needed a few more years. A big issue was getting material for the bomb, it wasn't like finding a pack of TNT or something.

[The Flyattractor]

if that's how you think mountains work then your head's in the clouds +_-

No. That is how I think Weather Patterns in conjunction with Geography Works. Its called SCIENCE! But then you probably are the kind of person that thinks Gender is controlled by the Power of Imagination so, I shouldn't be surprised you wouldn't know stuff like that.
Cause DER LEFTY SCIENCE IS DER SMERT ONES DERRR!!!!

[Annoyed]

Germany had started a nuclear program by either 1938 or 39.

There was a unique dynamic at work. In the view of the average US citizen at the time, Japan, and by extension, the Axis powers had pulled off a sneak attack at Pearl. That was a hotbutton on the US psyche at the time. The warning signs that were visible weren't commonly known until much later. This lit a fire under our collective arses, whipped the public and its support for the war into fever pitch. As Kennedy again proved in the '60's, once that fire was lit, there wasn't much we couldn't do. At least back then. Only 20 years separate the periods.

But with that motivation, it would indeed have been tough for Germany to win the nuke race. But they could have. And if they did, it would be a different world. With his V2 rockets and a workable nuke? Hitler would have owned the planet, lock stock & barrel.

As the theory behind Star Trek TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever" goes, "The world never threw off Hitler and the Nazi's, spaceflight never did develop" and so forth.

[The Flyattractor]

As the theory behind Star Trek TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever" goes, "The world never threw off Hitler and the Nazi's, spaceflight never did develop" and so forth.

Which is kind of silly really seeing as how the Germans were big on building those , ya know...ROCKETS!!!!!!!

[aretood2]

Germany had started a nuclear program by either 1938 or 39.

There was a unique dynamic at work. In the view of the average US citizen at the time, Japan, and by extension, the Axis powers had pulled off a sneak attack at Pearl. That was a hotbutton on the US psyche at the time. The warning signs that were visible weren't commonly known until much later. This lit a fire under our collective arses, whipped the public and its support for the war into fever pitch. As Kennedy again proved in the '60's, once that fire was lit, there wasn't much we couldn't do. At least back then. Only 20 years separate the periods.

But with that motivation, it would indeed have been tough for Germany to win the nuke race. But they could have. And if they did, it would be a different world. With his V2 rockets and a workable nuke? Hitler would have owned the planet, lock stock & barrel.

As the theory behind Star Trek TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever" goes, "The world never threw off Hitler and the Nazi's, spaceflight never did develop" and so forth.

The link I gave you, like in so many what ifs, really goes down the path of "best case scenario" for the Axis powers or the Nazis just to answer the question of how the world would look like. However what would actually happen is a different animal all together. The Nazis and their allies can not make decisions based on our hindsight...and there is only so much that could believably go right that didn't go right because those things when bad for a reason.

Take Japan's failure to destroy the US aircraft carriers. There is no way it would have happened otherwise unless a storm or something delayed the attack and they attacked coincidentally when the aircraft carriers were there. But even then Japan winning would be crazy difficult. Had they taken the carriers, they would probably taken Midway, invaded Hawaii and launched an attack on California. If the US was smart, they'd beef up ship building capability in the gulf and probably start arming its southern neighbors. Mexico was a big reason why the US was able to maintain its industrial output, they were getting resources for pennies on the dollar thanks to Mexico entering in the war. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the US wouldn't want a tens of thousands of Mexicans with guns to keep the Japanese busy while the national guard regroups in the case of a successful invasion of California.

Japan would have to take the Panama Canal, focus on keeping Mexican canon folder at bay, and deal with the annoyance of the combined Latin American fleets (Mostly those of Brazil and Chile). Sure those fleets won't exist for long, but just to take them out would require resources that Japan would be spreading out through about literally half the planet.

Given this, the US might not be to keen on defending the UK from Nazi invasion or landing troops in North Africa. But would probably get the commonwealth nations to regroup for an eventual African campaign as a precursor to the liberation of their former Imperial masters. Or take the British islands back and then go for North Africa.

[Annoyed]

[COLOR=#000080]

Take Japan's failure to destroy the US aircraft carriers. There is no way it would have happened otherwise unless a storm or something delayed the attack and they attacked coincidentally when the aircraft carriers were there. But even then Japan winning would be crazy difficult. Had they taken the carriers, they would probably taken Midway, invaded Hawaii and launched an attack on California. If the US was smart, they'd beef up ship building capability in the gulf and probably start arming its southern neighbors. Mexico was a big reason why the US was able to maintain its industrial output, they were getting resources for pennies on the dollar thanks to Mexico entering in the war. It wouldn't be a stretch to think that the US wouldn't want a tens of thousands of Mexicans with guns to keep the Japanese busy while the national guard regroups in the case of a successful invasion of California.

Japan had intel before they launched the attack that the carriers were not in port, but didn't assign much significance to it. Despite their own attack being carried out via carrier aviation, the top brass (on either side) hadn't written off the 80,000 ton behemoth of a battleship as the premiere naval asset yet. So while they could have delayed till they were in port, they didn't feel it was worth waiting.

And U.S. shipbuilding capacity was already occupied, with Liberty ships for the battle in the Atlantic, and the lend/lease program w/ Great Britain.

[aretood2]

Japan had intel before they launched the attack that the carriers were not in port, but didn't assign much significance to it. Despite their own attack being carried out via carrier aviation, the top brass (on either side) hadn't written off the 80,000 ton behemoth of a battleship as the premiere naval asset yet. So while they could have delayed till they were in port, they didn't feel it was worth waiting.

I know that, it's just that there is no way they would have actively wanted to take out the carriers. As you said, people didn't realize just how big of a deal they'd end up being. So taking them out would have had to be pure luck.

And U.S. shipbuilding capacity was already occupied, with Liberty ships for the battle in the Atlantic, and the lend/lease program w/ Great Britain.

At most that would only secure a prolonged protracted conflict in and around California. Eventually, with the help of resource rich allies with a near endless pool of labor, American Industry would make up the difference. Unmitigated success of operation Barbarossa would change things though. It would make the Man in the High Castle scenario more plausible.

[Womble]

This got me thinking. I find it hard to believe that a German victory would have to include a Japanese victory. Japan simply couldn't sustain open warfare with the US, nor prevent it. It lacked the industrial capability to do so. So let's say Germany stayed away from the US and decided that Japan was a lost cause. Japan surrenders.

Russia does not win the battle of Stalingrad, but retreats one more time abandoning Moscow and the government with a portion of the military and refugees hide out in the Ural mountains, or just beyond them, awaiting certain doom. This means that they won't be fueling any communist takeovers in the world, the redscare ends.

I don't think that was a realistic possibility. Comrade Stalin was far too relentless and vindictive to accept defeat, and the 1940-s logistics in harsh Russian conditions were inadequate for supplying German troops. Germany fully achieved its original operational goals for the invasion, and the reason they eventually lost was exhaustion of troops, overstretched supply lines and Russia's ability to strip their Far East bare of troops without fear of Japanese invasion (the Japanese were so conclusively defeated in the late 1930-s that their official doctrine was "look south" due to the persistent fears of confronting Russia in the north). Once the Wehrmacht lost momentum from the initial invasion and Russia gained time to mobilize reserves, the sheer demographic disadvantage of Germany doomed the whole enterprise.

[garhkal]

An Atlantic War would then be fought until the US got a nuke and then it's a race to nuclear winter a bit earlier than what I wrote, unless war exhaustion takes place in the US forcing it to come to peace with Germany. But unless major US cities go up in mushroom clouds, I don't see how anyone would support peace with Japan. It really comes down to who gets the nuke first, and I doubt it would be the Germans unless the US enters the war later in the game, but even then it would still require a lot of luck on the German program to beat the US at a nuke.

That's why i loved the premise of the 2nd installment of the Philadelphia Experiment films..

[SoulReaver]

No. That is how I think Weather Patterns in conjunction with Geography Works. Its called SCIENCE! But then you probably are the kind of person that thinks Gender is controlled by the Power of Imagination so, I shouldn't be surprised you wouldn't know stuff like that.
Cause DER LEFTY SCIENCE IS DER SMERT ONES DERRR!!!!

(neocons talk science lol) I didn't know terran mountains reach up to the stratosphere in your geography. I take it back you're not in the clouds you're on Mars. and for the gender stuff – I dunno nor do I give a f (figuratively) about that topic if you didn't notice. that said far right parties also have such people in their ranks how about that :|

Cause DER LEFTY SCIENCE IS DER SMERT ONES DERRR!!!!

no der smert ones is the ones who think a couples of cells is a person