The Political Discussion Thread

[jelgate]

You are wrong FH. I have a degree in Biology

[SoulReaver]

Capitalism is not a political system, it is a potential -component- of a system, yes?

by default I guess
just an economic system (or lack thereof)

Excuse me? I know this issue is more than simple right/left, but I don't have time for details right now. But the political left in this country strongly advocates for the tyranny of the minority.

you kidding right? it's the conservatives who support the electoral college (including the LSOS who claimed to dislike it but now loves it)

[Annoyed]

No, its more like the majority of the population has to change its behavior because (insert some vocal minority group here) complains that they don't like it because (insert reason here).

I could spend all day listing examples, but I don't have all day.

The "war on Christmas" for one example.

Another would be "The Dukes of Hazzard" TV show from the eighties. This was doing well in re-runs on CMT and other channels until a year or two ago, some "group" decided that they were offended by the Confederate flag which was displayed on the roof of the General Lee. So of course, catering to this minority, the copyright owner ceased distribution of the show and it vanished from the airwaves. Merchandise related to the show, toy cars and such were stripped of the flag on the roof. To this day, there is an ongoing purge of statues and references to historical figures that fought for the south in the Civil war, General Lee himself, I think I heard on the radio recently.

Like I said, this plays out in so many arenas I couldn't sit here and list them all. but I hope you get the idea.

[aretood2]

How does Caitlin's choice to become the person she's always been inside, affect your life?
To stop hiding or be afraid to come out of the closet?

What part of your life is being affected by that?

Exactly, and yet sticking their noses in lives where it doesn't belong, spreading their opinions and judgements and telling everyone what they can or can't do with their bodies, is still very much front and center.

Having an opinion is not predicated upon having a direct interest in the subject being opined on. Nor is the ability or freedom to voice said opinions dependent on having a direct interest in the subject in question.

We're not asking you to change who you are. We're simply asking you to respect who we are as humans. We are humans -- our brain's just wired differently, literally wired differently.

Here's a question I've always had. If gender is a social construct...then how can you be born with the wrong social construct? That's like saying that I was born with the wrong language...

My ADD-brain literally has different connections than a non-ADD brain.

Except ADD isn't a social construct, it's a biological process, or rather a dysfunctional process?

You know that nagging feeling you sometimes get, like something's wrong -- something's just not quite right. Compare it to that, if you like, to better understand it perhaps.
That feeling that tells you, something's out of whack but you can't put your finger on it -- and then, all of a sudden, comes that moment and you realize what you've been missing all this time. You fix the problem and all of a sudden everything's aligned.
In it's most simplistic form -- that's what it is.

I can understand this argument for sexual attraction, but for gender it just doesn't make sense to me.

It's disrespectful if you continue to refer to this person as he or she, when they are transitioned or in the process of transitioning or have made it abundantly clear to you they wish to be referred to as he or she, or any of the other pronouns (even I get confused sometimes).

Or refer to them with their old name when they have clearly chosen a new name, like Bruce Jenner instead Caitlyn Jenner, or Bradley Manning instead of Chelsea Manning.

Discrimination starts when you deny them the same rights you have, like going into the bathroom corresponding with their gender-ID. Denying them service. Harassment.

As for the use of pronouns? What if I simply don't believe that hormones and surgeries make someone a he or a she? You would be asking me to abrogate my reality in favor of yours. Is that not then, in its purist form, the same as me saying he or she despite the transition?

Don't get me wrong, it's offensive to the person for the same reason referring to Jelgate as "she" and sgalisa as "he" would be to them. But we do have a competing set of realities that are not compatible. Which one do you favor? Why? What would be the implications of that?

My point is that this isn't a clear cut issue, not by a long shot. It's easy for you when your reality is what it is, but not all see the world as you do.

Seems your memory has already erased the birthers wanting to see Obama's birth certificate. Mandela being jailed. Kennedy shot. Lincoln shot, Reagan shot (and lived), ... oh yeah, the worst.

You forgot George W. Bush.

No, its more like the majority of the population has to change its behavior because (insert some vocal minority group here) complains that they don't like it because (insert reason here).

I could spend all day listing examples, but I don't have all day.

The "war on Christmas" for one example.

Another would be "The Dukes of Hazzard" TV show from the eighties. This was doing well in re-runs on CMT and other channels until a year or two ago, some "group" decided that they were offended by the Confederate flag which was displayed on the roof of the General Lee. So of course, catering to this minority, the copyright owner ceased distribution of the show and it vanished from the airwaves. Merchandise related to the show, toy cars and such were stripped of the flag on the roof. To this day, there is an ongoing purge of statues and references to historical figures that fought for the south in the Civil war, General Lee himself, I think I heard on the radio recently.

Like I said, this plays out in so many arenas I couldn't sit here and list them all. but I hope you get the idea.

Ironically, that's exactly what Robert E. Lee wanted, to remove all use of CSA symbols and to have no statues or memorials relating to the CSA. Anyway, why is it a problem that traitors and slavers are removed from public displays of honor on public property? After all, no one has memorials for the S.S. in Germany nor are there any statues to Hitler...but you can hardly say that history has been denied or rewritten or something. Why honor treason and a system as barbaric as slavery?

[Annoyed]

Ironically, that's exactly what Robert E. Lee wanted, to remove all use of CSA symbols and to have no statues or memorials relating to the CSA. Anyway, why is it a problem that traitors and slavers are removed from public displays of honor on public property? After all, no one has memorials for the S.S. in Germany nor are there any statues to Hitler...but you can hardly say that history has been denied or rewritten or something. Why honor treason and a system as barbaric as slavery?

The symbolism means different things to different people. For me, someone born almost a 100 years after Lincoln & the civil war, the confederate flag has never meant or implied support for slavery. To me, it represents the idea of rebellion against an overactive govt., much in the same vein as Sammy Hagar's hit "I Can't Drive 55" did.

So in the context of the "Dukes", it was perfectly used. There was no question that Boss Hogg and the govt. in general of Hazzard county in the show was as corrupt and overreaching as a $3 dollar bill.

You often see CF flags in the windows of the same pickup trucks (yes, I know, stereotype, but you get the idea) with shotguns in the gun rack in the back window. Rebellion against government overreach, in this case, government overreaching its authority in defiance of the 2nd amendment.

But because a minority group finds it offensive, the society as a whole has to shun a perfectly good symbol of rebellion?

Pretty damned good example of tyranny of the minority.

[garhkal]

If your spouse has any respect for you, they shouldn't. They can argue their POV, but there is reasoned argument, and there is hounding.

They shouldn't, but i HAVE known some who were like "if you really love me, change your party to mine".. Same as i have known too many who were like "if you love me, get out of the military, NOW"..

IBut that is what the Republican establishment wants, an Oligarchy where the only thing that has a vote is money (citizens united).

Both sides are that way, not just republicans.

How does Caitlin's choice to become the person she's always been inside, affect your life?

It doesn't falcon. What does, is when they push to make me celebrate it.

t's disrespectful if you continue to refer to this person as he or she, when they are transitioned or in the process of transitioning or have made it abundantly clear to you they wish to be referred to as he or she, or any of the other pronouns (even I get confused sometimes).

Since they still DNA wise Are a he (or she), how is it disprespectful to keep calling them HE?
And since some of these people who make that claim CHANGE their idea of what they are, daily, how am i to know what the proper name is for them at that time???

Discrimination starts when you deny them the same rights you have, like going into the bathroom corresponding with their gender-ID. Denying them service. Harrasment.

And isn't it equally disrespectful to the gals in that bathroom/changing room, to have to put up with a grown MAN in their restrooms, cause that man feels he's a woman that day?

To this day, there is an ongoing purge of statues and references to historical figures that fought for the south in the Civil war, General Lee himself, I think I heard on the radio recently.

Like I said, this plays out in so many arenas I couldn't sit here and list them all. but I hope you get the idea.

Hell, new orleans has already removed 2 of the 4 great statues to southern generals it had.. to appease a small minority..
And what made me laugh, is the first 1 was removed at the dead of night, by FACE mask wearing workers. The 2nd was done by workers not only wearing those facemasks, BUT Bullet proof vests..

[garhkal]

Here's a question I've always had. If gender is a social construct...then how can you be born with the wrong social construct? That's like saying that I was born with the wrong language...

I love that question Aretood..

Except ADD isn't a social construct, it's a biological process, or rather a dysfunctional process?

I am torn on that. I've known people who, THESE days would be seen as having ADD/ADHD, but who after getting proper discipline and people not putting up with their antics, CHANGED.. So what made it to where someone acting out in the old days, is now seen as having a mental dysfunction?

As for the use of pronouns? What if I simply don't believe that hormones and surgeries make someone a he or a she? You would be asking me to abrogate my reality in favor of yours. Is that not then, in its purist form, the same as me saying he or she despite the transition?

Me neither. If physically (and genetically) you are X, then i feel its wrong for YOU to demand i refer to you as Y..

Ironically, that's exactly what Robert E. Lee wanted, to remove all use of CSA symbols and to have no statues or memorials relating to the CSA. Anyway, why is it a problem that traitors and slavers are removed from public displays of honor on public property? After all, no one has memorials for the S.S. in Germany nor are there any statues to Hitler...but you can hardly say that history has been denied or rewritten or something. Why honor treason and a system as barbaric as slavery?

Because it's denying our history..
Its also the same as those few colleges who are wanting to ban the US flag, cause some minorities and illegal immigrant students might be offended.. BUT they care not that banning it is offensive to the MAJORITY of US citizens who's tax dollars pay for their school..

[Gatefan1976]

They shouldn't, but i HAVE known some who were like "if you really love me, change your party to mine".. Same as i have known too many who were like "if you love me, get out of the military, NOW"..

Neither are worth your time or attention.

Both sides are that way, not just republicans.

Are they? Isn't one of the largest arguments about left leaning democrats that they want to engage in massive wealth distribution via things like climate change?
Where do the dems want to put the wealth?
Where do the Repubs want to put the wealth?

It doesn't falcon. What does, is when they push to make me celebrate it.

How do they make you "celebrate it"?

Since they still DNA wise Are a he (or she), how is it disprespectful to keep calling them HE?
And since some of these people who make that claim CHANGE their idea of what they are, daily, how am i to know what the proper name is for them at that time???

Are you your DNA, or are you a person?

And isn't it equally disrespectful to the gals in that bathroom/changing room, to have to put up with a grown MAN in their restrooms, cause that man feels he's a woman that day?

Have you seen some of the Women who have transitioned to men? Some would scare the crap out of other men due to their physiques, let alone putting them in a womans bathroom. Some of the Men who have transitioned to woman would make you think "I'd tap that" based off looks as well, want to put them in the mens room where they would be surrounded by men thinking that?

Hell, new orleans has already removed 2 of the 4 great statues to southern generals it had.. to appease a small minority..
And what made me laugh, is the first 1 was removed at the dead of night, by FACE mask wearing workers. The 2nd was done by workers not only wearing those facemasks, BUT Bullet proof vests..

Are you so sure it's a small minority?
It might be in New Orleans, but N.O. is not the U.S.

[Gatefan1976]

The symbolism means different things to different people. For me, someone born almost a 100 years after Lincoln & the civil war, the confederate flag has never meant or implied support for slavery. To me, it represents the idea of rebellion against an overactive govt., much in the same vein as Sammy Hagar's hit "I Can't Drive 55" did.

So in the context of the "Dukes", it was perfectly used. There was no question that Boss Hogg and the govt. in general of Hazzard county in the show was as corrupt and overreaching as a $3 dollar bill.

You often see CF flags in the windows of the same pickup trucks (yes, I know, stereotype, but you get the idea) with shotguns in the gun rack in the back window. Rebellion against government overreach, in this case, government overreaching its authority in defiance of the 2nd amendment.

But because a minority group finds it offensive, the society as a whole has to shun a perfectly good symbol of rebellion?

Pretty damned good example of tyranny of the minority.

Some symbols get irreparably damaged annoyed, and there is little to be done to repair them. Would it be appropriate for me to rock around with Swastika's on the roof of my car? To -me- it means something else other than the most well known symbol of Nazism, but should I do it?

[Annoyed]

It's your car, you do with it what you want. If that means something different (and I know there have been different meanings throughout history, Germany didn't invent that) to you, so be it. Who am I to tell you what to put on your car?

[Gatefan1976]

There is a difference between the ability to do a thing, and the wisdom of doing said thing.

[Annoyed]

Isn't that up to the individual? Why should society get to make the choice for him?

[Gatefan1976]

I'm not giving society that choice, *I* am choosing not to be a dick.

[aretood2]

The symbolism means different things to different people. For me, someone born almost a 100 years after Lincoln & the civil war, the confederate flag has never meant or implied support for slavery. To me, it represents the idea of rebellion against an overactive govt., much in the same vein as Sammy Hagar's hit "I Can't Drive 55" did.

So in the context of the "Dukes", it was perfectly used. There was no question that Boss Hogg and the govt. in general of Hazzard county in the show was as corrupt and overreaching as a $3 dollar bill.

You often see CF flags in the windows of the same pickup trucks (yes, I know, stereotype, but you get the idea) with shotguns in the gun rack in the back window. Rebellion against government overreach, in this case, government overreaching its authority in defiance of the 2nd amendment.

Those symbols became symbols against government overreach, that is true. But do you remember when and how they started to symbolize that? Here's a hint, they considered Brown v Board of Education to be government overreach. They were rebelling against a government giving in to the civil rights movement. I mean, did you ever wonder why for the longest time they only really existed in the south?

These things are hard to overcome, and if you really want a symbol of rebellion against an overreaching or oppressive government, why not just use the stars and stripes?

But because a minority group finds it offensive, the society as a whole has to shun a perfectly good symbol of rebellion?

Pretty damned good example of tyranny of the minority.

Is it a minority though?

Hell, new orleans has already removed 2 of the 4 great statues to southern generals it had.. to appease a small minority..
And what made me laugh, is the first 1 was removed at the dead of night, by FACE mask wearing workers. The 2nd was done by workers not only wearing those facemasks, BUT Bullet proof vests..

Are you sure it was just a minority?

It's your car, you do with it what you want. If that means something different (and I know there have been different meanings throughout history, Germany didn't invent that) to you, so be it. Who am I to tell you what to put on your car?

There's this thing called "morality" that one must consider as well.

[Annoyed]

You just aren't getting it.
By the action of a minority of the population, a symbol of rebelliousness is being systematically deleted from our society. You can't buy a "General Lee" toy for your kid anymore that has the flag on the roof, as it did in the series. This was a TV series, more than 30 years ago, and people are bellyaching about it.
The symbol is being removed from society as a result of the demands of a minority.
Which was the point of this discussion, the tyranny of the minority.