The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

---part 2 of 2---
reposting in case this gets separated...
So, they offer a "temporary truce" but ONLY on their terms, which they can and WILL revoke at any time AND without warning.

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

[Gatefan1976]

but it's a cool pic

anyway the penalty for apostasy is death. clear?

That is clear, which one you are talking about is not.

[garhkal]

The general counter argument against that is (jelgates post) that if his fellow people had done more to bring his actions to the attention of the authorities then people wouldn't be angry with them.

For example his neighbours are denying that they had any knowledge of his intentions, yet other neighbours said he had an ISIS flag hanging from his bedroom window and often stood in the street shouting nonsense about sharia law.

I'll let you guess which community is which.

And when we see people CHEERING (in palestine and other muslim countries) when certain bombing happened, its IMO more than just a small minority..

Every time there is an attack, security gets tightened. more restrictions are placed on their lives, and there are revenge attacks. Which is just feeding into the cycle. They hit us, so we hit them back. Then they hit us again. That's why I think more guns, more fighting isn't the answer. We need to stop the cycle of radicalisation. If they can be made to feel a part of the community, that they matter, and are welcome and wanted, doesn't that reduce the chances of radicalisation? Isis recruitment depends on the isolated and unwanted. Pushing Muslims away is exactly what they want us to do.

But we have tried the "open arms and accepting them" and that didn't work either (see afgan/iraq)..

Of course you should have concerns, but I don't -need- to add fuel to the "fake news" garbage by blaming him for something he did not do.
He can do that all by himself. "I never mentioned Israel"

Again, my distaste of trump is not partisan in any way, I honestly, truly believe that trump is a danger to not just the people in the US, but the world. He is stunningly incompetent.

And what of all the leakers? Are they also not a threat to the US??

The article originally came from the Islamic State's Dabiq magazine, and was apparently written shortly after the nightclub murders of the LGBTQ club down in Orlando,FL (USA) last year (2016). So, from their own clear statements, here yah go--please see inside spoiler quotes.. (for everyone)

Wow. A nice read Sgalisa..
And when you read things like that, it makes you truly wonder, HOW can we ever try to 'find common ground, to accept/welcome or otherwise think we ever can live in peace' with such a hateful religion and ideology..

good luck with that
1) they've a rather harsh penalty for apostasy
2) you risk the same penalty for inciting them to apostasy

So we are not their religion, so we must die, we deny their religion (atheists) so must die, and if we try to convert them out of it, that's STILL "we must die"..
Seems no matter what we do, to adherents of islam, we non muslims must die..

[SoulReaver]

That is clear, which one you are talking about is not.

Note how you describe the behavior of Muslims as purely reactive. As if they aren't people with their own motivations, ambitions and worldviews but a humpty-dumpty - if it swings, it had to have been pushed.

I don't believe that anyone is born with the ambition of blowing themselves up and taking as many people with them as possible.

Born into it? No. Inducted into it? Absolutely.

If they can be made to feel a part of the community, that they matter

simple: convert to their religion

Or convert them to yours............

1) they've a rather harsh penalty for apostasy
2) you risk the same penalty for inciting them to apostasy

.

(outa curiosity which religion(s) did you have in mind?)

[Gatefan1976]

And when we see people CHEERING (in palestine and other muslim countries) when certain bombing happened, its IMO more than just a small minority..

Were you happy when Obama came out and said Bin laden was dead?
When trump launched tomahawks?
When trump dropped the supposed MOAB?
If the answer is yes, perhaps you should look in a mirror...........

But we have tried the "open arms and accepting them" and that didn't work either (see afgan/iraq)..

There is no open arms with radicals, any radicals.

And what of all the leakers? Are they also not a threat to the US??

Some of them, YES. The leak about what trump said to the Russians was objectively dangerous. It called into question where trump stands, which from a partisan position is -great-. It -also- however put foreign intelligence relations into doubt -which is objectively dangerous-
The question is, which one of those things is more dangerous?

Wow. A nice read Sgalisa..
And when you read things like that, it makes you truly wonder, HOW can we ever try to 'find common ground, to accept/welcome or otherwise think we ever can live in peace' with such a hateful religion and ideology..

We will never live in peace with radicals.

So we are not their religion, so we must die, we deny their religion (atheists) so must die, and if we try to convert them out of it, that's STILL "we must die"..
Seems no matter what we do, to adherents of islam, we non muslims must die..

It's not unique to Islam.

[Gatefan1976]

.

(outa curiosity which religion(s) did you have in mind?)

Any that say there is only one way to god, I thought that would have been rather obvious.

[SoulReaver]

Any that say there is only one way to god, I thought that would have been rather obvious.

which way

(more obvious: which of them have the death penalty?)

[SoulReaver]

Were you happy when Obama came out and said Bin laden was dead?

for the neocons I reckon that must've been a hellofa dilemma :/

[Gatefan1976]

which way

(more obvious: which of them have the death penalty?)

All of them, and not just in this world.

[Gatefan1976]

for the neocons I reckon that must've been a hellofa dilemma :/

Hardly.
It was Seal team 6, not Obama.

[SoulReaver]

All of them

to cite one: "thou shall not kill"
reconcile that with the death penalty

[Gatefan1976]

to cite one: "thou shall not kill"
reconcile that with the death penalty

Why soul, I never expected you to play devils advocate on this point. Look to that long block of text I quoted on the last page.
Then just look at history.

[SoulReaver]

Why soul, I never expected you to play devils advocate on this point. Look to that long block of text I quoted on the last page.
Then just look at history.

(missa possessed)

hey relativity m8
most of them have a colourful history
but atm it's the "letter of the law" we're talking about

so, how do you kill & reconcile that with "do not kill"?*


*question also addressed @ the US religious-conservatives btw

[Gatefan1976]

(missa possessed)

hey relativity m8
most of them have a colourful history
but atm it's the "letter of the law" we're talking about

so, how do you kill & reconcile that with "do not kill"?*


*question also addressed @ the US religious-conservatives btw

Religious law?
You separate theocratic law from secular law. "God does not want you to have the death penalty, the STATE wants it", which is really convenient when you want the person to die anyway. A quick tour through the US states that like them some death penalty however paints a somewhat different picture.........

Sharia law -without- state sponsorship is really nothing to be worried about, but as I mentioned a few pages/days ago, when you create SECULAR law to defend RELIGIOUS rights, you blur the line. It's all well and good to say "churches" have the right to fund Political PACS (from their tax free coffers), but by doing so, you -also- allow Mosques, and Synagogues, and the standing stones, and mums basement where we worship the force to do the exact same thing.

[Falcon Horus]

In related news, to give you an idea of how lazy Trump is, he originally planned to give his Israel speech at the ancient mountaintop fortress of Masada - arguably the most iconic possible location. He gave up on it when he learned that he couldn't arrive to Masada by helicopter and would need to actually walk his way up.

Best he didn't walk -- he would have been so out of breath, he wouldn't have been able to give his speech. Wouldn't that have been a shame.

I saw the blowback of him signing the Holocaust remembrance book -- apparently he signed it like you'd sign a yearbook.

All I've said is that we do not have the technological ability to actually change a persons gender.

Actually, we do have that ability, except it has to be done at the level of IVF conception. It's generally referred to as a designer-baby. Boy/girl, blue/brown/green eyes, blond/brown/red hair, ... and some such.

At a later level, when a person is born, changing the sex-chromosomes is near impossible since that kind of science isn't up to snuff yet.

Genders can be changed at all ages, sex, on the other hand, only at the level pre-conception.

If prostitution is legal in places like Denmark why is it too hard to do everywhere else?

I think it requires an open enough mind to make some of it legal, in order to contain sexual transmitting diseases and to guarantee "safe sex".

Ok, 1st, before you answer anything else, tell me this. Which medical facility can someone go to to have their gender changed? A real, complete change, including XY --> XX chromosomes, or the other way around. Where is this facility?

Fertility labs.

Oh, and did I say they didn't have the right to delude themselves?

Can't remember whether you did or not, but by merely making the suggestion you are inclined to belief that transwomen/men are mentally ill. Otherwise, why use the word "delude*"?

* delude: to make someone believe something that is not true

The issue I have is the "fuzzy subjects, like alcoholism and the other psychobabble "illnesses". They can't point to any specific cause or process for a cure, but they sure have no trouble coming up with expensive treatment regimens that they can bill someone or the govt. for, as long as it is labeled as a disease and they have a code for it.

Depression causes real detectable changes in the brain. It is possible to see the differences in a brain scan. Mental illnesses are real.

Let's bring in the brainscans:

Medication for depression can help. It might not be able to cure it, but it can give a person a break from the cycle of behaviour or low energy moods, long enough to make positive changes in their lives, which in turn will help them deal with the illness.

And I welcome the relieve.

Sidenote: I really like the look of brainscans -- esthetically speaking

But it's my candy!!
And I'm not getting close enough to touch him

Use a stick like the one they use to feed alligators.

+++

More later...