The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

Depends if you're looking at how Islam works on the inside or how it interacts with the outside world, I guess.

I'm talking of a "reformation" style movement within itself.

Although you might remember that on the inside, revolutionary movements are always totalitarian, intolerant and fundamentalist, no matter what particular idea they are pursuing.

Sure.

The Communists of the 19th century claimed that they, too, wanted to restore the old ways and claimed that hunter-gatherer societies represented "primitive Communism:" that was classless, egalitarian and based on shared ownership of means of production / tools.

Going to show that taking "primitive anything" and trying to plop it into modern society is not a good idea.

“Nonconformists travel as a rule in bunches. You rarely find a nonconformist who goes it alone. And woe to him inside a nonconformist clique who does not conform with nonconformity.” - Eric Hoffer.

A rather self defeating, yet mostly true statement.

As for moderates in Islam, I'm still waiting for someone to point out an actual Islamic movement for moderation, as opposed to isolated cases of Westernized individuals.

What do you think of Fethullah Gulen's "brand" of Islam?

[Womble]

I'm talking of a "reformation" style movement within itself.

My problem with Islam is that I'm yet to see one of those.

What do you think of Fethullah Gulen's "brand" of Islam?

To be honest, I don't know enough. On the face of it Gullen appears to be something of a reformer, but the problem is that he isn't working towards moderating a currently-Islamic society so much as towards making Islam more prominent in a currently-secular society. This could make Gulenism a kind of gateway drug, a starter pack towards more hardline interpretations of Islam.

But as far as reformation beginnings go, this is as good a start as any.

[garhkal]

Tried your link Garhkal, all i got was a cute kitty, cant find page

Which one??

Free speech and Terms of Service are two different things -- it seems a lot of twitter users seem to forget there's a distinction.

Very true. MOST websites i go to have many words they censor, such as curse words, or on some sites, they block certain links etc..

I've seen a couple of those tweets on Leslie Jones' feed and he was definitely breaking the ToS of Twitter, and so were a lot of his followers, of which a lot were suspended/banned along with him.

I sincerely hope Twitter continues to provide a way to block or suspend or ban multiple abusers of the ToS. Cause occasionally, there are some nasty stuff going around.

So do i. BUT it seems to me, with sites like that, if its someone Conservative, they get the ban hammer, if liberal, they get a slap on the wrist..

Indeed, when I work at home I need my ID card to log into the network. Multiple uses.

I really wish that when i retired out, the powers that be, showed me how to set up a CAC reader on my PC, so i could still do the same for military related sites i visit (like DFAS).. BUT even getting software after the fact and trying it myself, it never seems to work..

It's not.
It's less than that.

Found some numbers -- wasn't asking the right questions this afternoon. Tried different search words and here it is:

Budget for Education in Flanders in 2013: 10.750.000.000 euro (11.877.700.000 dollar) which amounts to 38.92% of the Flemish estimate.

So that covers education. I was on about what you guys are TAXED.. To cover all the 'free stuff' you have..

I could be mis-remembering here, but even the Social Security number is being "misused" legally in the US for identification purposes.

It certainly seems to be with the # of things you have to give it over for..

In which case he's off by 5% cause we have a tax-rate of about 50% total taxes. Belgium is probably one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world.

Yeouch!!

So, what do people think of Michelle Melania's speech...........

Many politicians have plagurised stuff from others.. IMO its no biggy..

I don't know where you are, garhkal, but we are already at or over 45%. "Tax Freedom Day" is May 11th this year for NY state. Every dime you earn between Jan 1st and May 11th goes to pay taxes of one sort or another. I'm not going to bother with the math, but it's likely 45% or above. 3 weeks shy of 50%.

Ohio.. So between state, property and federal, i am probably close to around 34%..

Tax Freedom Day Arrives on April 19th in Ohio

Tax Freedom Day is the day when Americans have finally earned enough money to pay off their total tax bill for the year. In 2016, Ohio taxpayers have to work until April 19th (26th earliest nationally) to pay their total tax bill.

Using that site you linked, i come up with the above..

Personally, there are two issues. One, the barriers to getting ID's can exclude some. If that is taken cared of then that's one out of two.

Secondly, it doesn't stop fraud. That's the point of my previous post on the matter.

Third, though just a food for thought part, is it needed? Voter Fraud accounts for so few votes that it has zero chance of affecting the election. The fraud that we got is in regards to counting the votes, not submitting the votes (Of which Mexico has had in the past too).

Beyond that, I'm personally opposed to ID's.

Based on many stores i have heard, some even coming from those who DO work for their state/county bord of elections, they have seen plenty. Such as the dead family they know who's name KEEPS re-appearing on voter rolls, even AFTER several times reporting it to the proper authorities.. it keeps coming back on them...
Or the stores i have heard/seen where a town of say 4000, had 6000 votes recorded...

Continued next post..

[thekillman]

This should make you happy Annoyed:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/21/us...sues.html?_r=0

"i don't think we've a right to lecture".

So when Obama doesn't want to go on wild adventures he's a coward and a failure, but when trump says the same he's the hero and reformer we all need.

[Gatefan1976]

My problem with Islam is that I'm yet to see one of those.

Fair call.

To be honest, I don't know enough. On the face of it Gullen appears to be something of a reformer, but the problem is that he isn't working towards moderating a currently-Islamic society so much as towards making Islam more prominent in a currently-secular society. This could make Gulenism a kind of gateway drug, a starter pack towards more hardline interpretations of Islam.

But as far as reformation beginnings go, this is as good a start as any.

Well, it's a very two sided affair, they claim to be progressive and have called for reform, their detractors claim they are merely conducting a soft jihad to insinuate themselves into governmental roles, so information is pretty.......... varied depending on who you read.
Being a religious -organization- I am personally distrustful of it, simply because, well, I distrust all religious organizations, but I -want- to believe they truly seek to reform Islam.

[garhkal]

[QUOTE=aretood2;14497662]

But no American citizen forfeits their life or freedom simply because they withhold respect or courtesy. And no American citizen owes an officer any respect if they behave in a manner contrary to their obligations to respect the rights afforded to a person by the constitution and the laws of the land.

That is tru, you shouldn't just for being disrespectful.. However all these cases we hear, there was MORE than just being disrespectful.. There was resisting, carrying illegal weapons (as they were felons legally they couldn't carry/own).. And in some cases flat out wrestling to GET the officers gun...

If I kill you because I don't like white people, hate crime. If I kill you because you're a security guard, not hate crime. That's just the law, don't take its title too literally.

Which to ME, seems an unequal application of that law/rule.. But for now, i will concede the point.

This would be the first I hear of it.

Maybe it was just the conservative news site i was on where i read it.. BUt i could have sworn those rumors of the KKK supporting trump only surfaced to try and derail him.. and he had refuted the claims of their support..

No, I mean what are you doing to change the way people think. Those organizations aren't going away until the way people think about race changes.

And as (IMO) long as blacks keep seeing things AS always being about color, people won't change how they see races..

I wasn't agreeing with them.

Sorry, it seemed you were.. Apologies.

The only case I can think of is Travvon Martin. I don't know what you're talking about.

Right after Roof shot up that church, Obama made a big speech saying "This is proof of inherent racism in WHITE people's dna.. Yet you have not ONCE heard him say on any of the blacks shooting cops, that there is any hate there.. (well i can't remember if he has or not)...

Would explain why so many seem to care if Obama is Muslim or Christian.

For mE, the reason many feel that way, is that he seems to bash down ON christians, won't stand up for them (such as the refusal to accept Christian refugees from Syria i heard about from Fox), but has said/done many things propping up/supporting Islam..

My favorite parts are when she started talking about ISIS. "We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

So not only taking from Moochelle, but from Churchill..

[Gatefan1976]

So that covers education. I was on about what you guys are TAXED.. To cover all the 'free stuff' you have..

Who said anyone thought it was free??

It certainly seems to be with the # of things you have to give it over for..

It was not until the 70's when that stuff started, initially, they (gov) said it was not to be used in such a manner.

Many politicians have plagurised stuff from others.. IMO its no biggy..

It's not so much the fact she plagerised, it's WHO she plagerised.

[Gatefan1976]

Maybe it was just the conservative news site i was on where i read it.. BUt i could have sworn those rumors of the KKK supporting trump only surfaced to try and derail him.. and he had refuted the claims of their support..

Just look up David Duke and his support for Trump.

Right after Roof shot up that church, Obama made a big speech saying "This is proof of inherent racism in WHITE people's dna.. Yet you have not ONCE heard him say on any of the blacks shooting cops, that there is any hate there.. (well i can't remember if he has or not)...

This is a load of total BS.
Obama did not mention "whites", he said that Racism was part of the DNA of the USA.
See, -this- is why "lefties" whinge. The left is in no way above creating context where it may not exist, the right just makes crap up.

For mE, the reason many feel that way, is that he seems to bash down ON christians, won't stand up for them (such as the refusal to accept Christian refugees from Syria i heard about from Fox), but has said/done many things propping up/supporting Islam..

Why does it matter if he won't accept Christian refugee's?
Don't you (Republicans) want to stop ALL refugee's from Syria?
The closest Obama gets to "bashing" on Christians is reminding them that Christianity had it's own dark periods, fuelled by fundamental radicalism as well.
If pointing out a fact is hate speech.............

So not only taking from Moochelle, but from Churchill..

MOOchelle?
Seriously?

[SoulReaver]

You've really set yourself up for this one, yes.
Let's have a little bit more fun. What definition of "right wing" and "left wing" were you using in that statement? Try to avoid circular logic in your answer.

wait you would've preferred conservative? pro-class? the "miltonian" definition of left/right? why suddenly ask for the definition now when the terms left & right have been used left & right by just about everyone including yourself in this thread - better go back to the very first posts & ask that question for each of those instances

That's not an answer. I wasn't asking if the converts understand what they're getting into.

but I was. else that's disingenuous as it's conveniently omitting a very important factor
you'd rather look at the political leanings of those who may not even understand what they're dealing with (only to be seriously disillusioned right before their heads are chopped off) rather than the actual regimes in those countries

I asked what political background makes one more likely to convert to Islam.

you tell me. I said I'm curious about the stats now

Okay, so I shoul've dropped the word "definitional" from my earlier statement and should've applied it more generally.
Right vs. left, my friend, is a political division specific to European secular democracies. It goes back to the sitting arrangement in the French parliament - the deputies representing the nobles, supporters of the monarchy, were on the right, the deputies representing the common people on the left. From that point on the terms evolved to the point in which the "right-wing" politics are in defense of traditional sociopoltical status quo whereas the "left-wing" politics pursue altering that status quo.

yes after their revolution etc. but even today right wing doesn't necessarily imply keeping the status quo - on the contrary in a country perceived as too "socialist" for instance the right wingers (the most hardcore ones especially) want to radically change things too. in France for instance, now that you mention them - the National Front. even they use the word 'revolution'

So where does Islam fit on that scale? Well, nowhere. It's a religion, not a political party.

and both religion & politics mean to regulate people's lives - like when religion gets heavily involved in politics, take a look at islamic theocracies (kinda what I meant anyway). or do the leaders in those countries don't know their own religion?

A case can be made, for the sheer fun of it, that Islam is a good deal more left-wing than right-wing, because it views itself as a revolutionary movement actively seeking to alter the world's status quo.

you mean reactionary...right? a return to the "good old ways" - or maintaining them
unless you think the islamists are willing to modernize their religion itself (that'd be the day)

[Annoyed]

To follow up, you might find this interesting:
http://www.nyspropertytaxreform.org/the-full-answer

I'm well aware that the lower/middle classes bear the brunt of the tax burden. How many times have I objected to taxes based upon that very fact?
The laws are written by the well-to-to. They will always write the laws to benefit themselves. This cannot be changed.

How about an alternate solution? Less taxation overall. NY doesn't have a tax problem, we are very heavily taxed as is. We have a SPENDING problem. The state simply spends too much, and requires that other agencies do the same as well.

We need to cut SPENDING. Taxes will fall for everyone as spending drops.

[Gatefan1976]

I'm well aware that the lower/middle classes bear the brunt of the tax burden. How many times have I objected to taxes based upon that very fact?
The laws are written by the well-to-to. They will always write the laws to benefit themselves. This cannot be changed.

Yes, yes it can be changed. If previous administrations had kept the bulk of the tax burden on income tax, rather than shifting it to state tax, the cost would be shared better amongst the populous. You had 2 tax cuts which shifted things that way, both done by........... Republican Governers.

How about an alternate solution? Less taxation overall. NY doesn't have a tax problem, we are very heavily taxed as is. We have a SPENDING problem. The state simply spends too much, and requires that other agencies do the same as well.

You do spend an inordinate amount on education, I'll give you that.

We need to cut SPENDING. Taxes will fall for everyone as spending drops.

No it won't. The money will just get used for other things, the things that get neglected constantly.

[Annoyed]

You do spend an inordinate amount on education, I'll give you that.

And you wonder why I hate govt. employee unions.

[Gatefan1976]

And you wonder why I hate govt. employee unions.

Not really, I figured you had some reason for it. To be fair, you do have the 3rd highest education outcomes in the country.

[pookey]

Free speech doesn't mean that you can say whatever the hell you want, especially in a public place, or online....

https://www.buzzfeed.com/charliewarz...N9d#.psdRqVYwr

Well that is good news .... Now will Twitter close all the other accounts of other users that do the same thing?

Sorry Garhkal, i thought it was your link, it was Cocos that didnt work, this one ^

[Falcon Horus]

My favorite parts are when she started talking about ISIS. "We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

In France - Melania is aware that WWII ended in 1945, right?

So do i. BUT it seems to me, with sites like that, if its someone Conservative, they get the ban hammer, if liberal, they get a slap on the wrist..

Anyone breaking the ToS in whatever way should be treated on equal terms: warnings, suspensions and ultimately a complete ban.

I know it's possible for users to block accounts, kinda like how the ignore-feature on GW works. But I haven't figured out how that works or how to do that - not that I have had need for it. I have very few followers and the people I follow are not in the business of spewing foul language too often.

So that covers education. I was on about what you guys are TAXED.. To cover all the 'free stuff' you have..

I was fixated on "education" - sorry. Fixed it though.

Yeouch!!

You can say that.

That is tru, you shouldn't just for being disrespectful.. However all these cases we hear, there was MORE than just being disrespectful.. There was resisting, carrying illegal weapons (as they were felons legally they couldn't carry/own).. And in some cases flat out wrestling to GET the officers gun...

And yet, news reached my spying eyes this morning that yet another black man was shot, unarmed, on the ground and his hands high in the air. He was the caregivver of a man with autism who was with him at the time of the shooting, carrying a toy truck.

Unarmed mental health worker: I had arms raised when shot by police

North Miami Police told CBS News they received a 911 call Monday about an armed man who was threatening suicide. But instead, they encountered Charles Kinsey and his patient.

The video shows Kinsey laying in the middle of a North Miami street, trying to coax his patient back to a mental health center from where he wandered, reports CBS News correspondent Vinita Nair. Kinsey was shot, but survived.

For mE, the reason many feel that way, is that he seems to bash down ON christians, won't stand up for them (such as the refusal to accept Christian refugees from Syria i heard about from Fox), but has said/done many things propping up/supporting Islam..

If you have 100 Syrian refugees, 10 will be Christian and 90 will be Muslim (Sunni or Shia). Or possibly 5 Christian, 5 Yazidi and 90 Muslim. Only 10% of all Syrians is Christian.

It would mean asking every refugee about their religion and then deciding to block Muslims and allow Christians. I hope you can see the problem with that as well.

And I tried looking for a source which wasn't biased about what you're saying but couldn't find a single one that wasn't Christian in nature. So I have to take this with a serious grain of salt.

However, I did find this:

UN: Critics wrong on Christian Syrian refugees?

Under fire from conservative critics, the United Nations’s refugee agency is insisting that critics have their facts wrong about the small number of Christians fleeing the civil war in Syria.

Against heated criticism from Capitol Hill, officials from the U.N. High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) maintain that the situation in Syria is much more complicated than its opponents assert.

“The details of resettlement are so detailed and so precise that only a few people in Washington ever care about it,” said Jana Mason, UNHCR's senior adviser for government relations and external affairs. “Now all of a sudden, everybody on the morning news, the evening news, cable news are talking about it. And because it is so complicated and so multi-step, people get it wrong.”

“What’s caught us by surprise is that it’s being parsed in the public domain without all the detailed understanding being out there.”

Mason and her colleagues attempted to correct some of that "misinformation" in an interview with The Hill on Friday.

Her agency has been trapped in the spotlight by comments from some Republicans, who have criticized the UNHCR and the Obama administration for a seemingly low number of Christian refugees that come to the U.S. from Syria. The U.N. agency provides the first line of screening for most of the refugees that eventually make it to the U.S.

“They appear to be filtering Christians out,” said Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa).

According to data from the State Department, just 62 of the 2,550 Syrian refugees that have been resettled in the U.S. since the Syrian civil war broke out in 2011 are some denomination of Christian. That 2.4 percent is much lower than the roughly 10 percent of pre-war Syria that was believed to have been Christian.

The disparity is not just in the U.S.

Of the roughly 2 million Syrian refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt who have registered with the UNHCR, only 1.2 percent are Christian, Mason said.

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