The Political Discussion Thread

[Womble]

No even semi-free society is able to provide complete security against attackers who are willing to sacrifice their own lives in the process, whether by the violence of the attack itself or the aftermath when the cops shoot him.
In the states, 50 people are killed at a nightclub by a gun-toting nut. This guy didn't even bother with his guns, he simply uses a truck and kills 80. Far more efficient than guns anyway.

The point is that unless we want to live as WWII era Germany did, with SS conducting random searches, no privacy rights whatsoever, and all the rest of the trimmings of that type of society, we can't really stop this kind of crap.

How long before some well-meaning? government tries to sell that kind of setup to its people as "required for their security"


If you allow your citizens free movement, without gestapo style checkpoints and patrols, you can't stop people from using things as weapons, regardless of their primary function. It is simply too easy for someone with a couple of brain cells to rub together to pervert some useful, everyday substance or tool into something to kill large amounts of people with.

You can't protect all people from all things, but that's no reason to not try. You can protect most people from most things.

It's all well and good to pontificate about the importance of a "free society" and to conjure up worn-out anti-utopian fantasies, but how free are you really if you aren't ever safe? How free is a society in which people fear going to public events? What is the original point of a society in the first place if not safety in numbers?

There is a reasonable middle ground between the obsession with personal rights and vulnerability to mass casualty attacks by madmen. It takes some effort to find it. It takes some compromises to achieve it. It takes admitting that, with all the respect to other rights of the individual, the right to life comes first because dead people have considerable difficulty exercising whatever liberties they have de jure. But people don't have to die by the hundreds for your privacy rights.

[Gatefan1976]

I'll give you that...

Cool.
I'm not trying to "prove you wrong" here, merely show the difference between "social media organized" and -really- organized.

In a way, yes. BUT what's the point in them investigating, when many of those recent attackers have been CHECKED out and then cleared..

Which is why the Dem's said no, it wouldn't do a damn thing.

While, yes i can snap your neck, kick you hard enough in the chest to crush your sternum, smash your skull with a brick, generally every time i hear 'deadly force + cops" being used, its meaning being shot.

But it does not just mean being shot.
Google "gun statistics collected by the CDC" and look at the damage the NRA has done to their ability to track -exactly- the kind of thing people want to know.
You can also look for guns not being registered by database.

And that's why a # of people say 'black lives matter to whom? Not BLM, otherwise they would be in chicago ranting after each round of shootings every weekend it seems"..

BLM does not exist to cover -all black life and death issues-, it exists due to cops getting away with murder. There are several other organizations attempting to deal with the perceived systemic gang culture in black culture.

And states implementing troublesome requirements on someone say getting a gun license, even going so far in some places that you not only get state licensed, but then county and city for CCWs? How is that not "preventing someone exercising their rights"?

Because at no point does it become illegal for you to buy a gun or get separate CCW permits. Time is not a factor in the purchase and registration of a gun, it -is- for abortions.

Or like CA is doing, taxing Bullet sales...

Good Idea. They could even make sales of bullets at ranges tax exempt as long as you don't take them off the range, that way people would not be "sin taxed" for continuing their weapons training.

Which is why it was offered up as a hypothetical.. To get minds thinking.

Sure, it's hypothetically possible, but hypotheticals are usually only useful in the slippery slope kind of argument, and if we have had multiple cases of civil disobedience/marches and no cases of them stopping EMS/FF/Police, it's safe to not consider that particular hypothetical at this point.

And i have not had a problem on limiting mags to 10 rounds for rifles/pistols..

Cool

Of the 30 or so people i know personally who have one..
Over a dozen do it for personal protection
8 do it cause they hunt
7 have them cause they target shoot as part of a club
2 have one cause they want one and 2 have it cause they are preppers..

What motivates the people who want them for personal protection, and the preppers.

How's about many college campuses, flat out ranting/rioting when they hear this or that conservative speaker is going to be on campus, cause someone there ASKED them to come.. Or as reported on a few times, college professors actually marking DOWN someone who spouted a conservative view point on an essay and the like..?

To be honest, while I am aware of it happening, I have not really looked into it. What I have heard is people being invited to speak, someone having a whinge and the invitation getting pulled. That's something I disagree with on principle. Can you point me in the direction of some of these events?

[Gatefan1976]

Something to consider for the Republicans here to consider about their platform for 2016.

I paraphrase here from TNYT.
"The platform demands that lawmakers use religion as a guide when legislating, stipulating that 'manmade law must be consistent with God-given, natural rights' "

How do you feel about this?

[thekillman]

Something to consider for the Republicans here to consider about their platform for 2016.

I paraphrase here from TNYT.
"The platform demands that lawmakers use religion as a guide when legislating, stipulating that 'manmade law must be consistent with God-given, natural rights' "

How do you feel about this?

*cough* sharia *cough*

Turkey "supports" ISIS plus I never bought into the whole 'Russia fights ISIS' BS (the ruskies were far better at bombing ISIS' enemies including other islamists groups)

Russia, USA and Turkey all bomb terrorists in Syria. They just have different views of what terrorists there are. Russia counts anti-assad forces as terrorists, for instance.

[Gatefan1976]

*cough* sharia *cough*

Are you suggesting that the Republican party wants to make a theocratic state??



That simply couldn't happen, constitutional scholars would point out that a theocratic based rule of law would be in violation of the establishment clause, wouldn't they?

Russia, USA and Turkey all bomb terrorists in Syria. They just have different views of what terrorists there are. Russia counts anti-assad forces as terrorists, for instance.

These distinctions hurt my brain, stop it!!

[thekillman]

Are you suggesting that the Republican party wants to make a theocratic state??

I'm not the one suggesting it.

[Annoyed]

You can't protect all people from all things, but that's no reason to not try. You can protect most people from most things.

It's all well and good to pontificate about the importance of a "free society" and to conjure up worn-out anti-utopian fantasies, but how free are you really if you aren't ever safe? How free is a society in which people fear going to public events? What is the original point of a society in the first place if not safety in numbers?

There is a reasonable middle ground between the obsession with personal rights and vulnerability to mass casualty attacks by madmen. It takes some effort to find it. It takes some compromises to achieve it. It takes admitting that, with all the respect to other rights of the individual, the right to life comes first because dead people have considerable difficulty exercising whatever liberties they have de jure. But people don't have to die by the hundreds for your privacy rights.

Ok, then just how much invasion of your privacy are you willing to tolerate? Random traffic checkpoints where you and your vehicle are subject to search at any time without probable cause? Constant surveillance by government authorities? Random searches of your home, again with no warrant or probable cause?
What are you willing to tolerate?

If you want to even pretend to safeguard people, you have to have all of the above, and much more. Because as I said, any numb-nut can take ordinary devices such as a truck and ordinary substances and pervert them into weapons which can be used to kill large amounts of people.

Where do you draw the line?

[Annoyed]

Something to consider for the Republicans here to consider about their platform for 2016.

I paraphrase here from TNYT.
"The platform demands that lawmakers use religion as a guide when legislating, stipulating that 'manmade law must be consistent with God-given, natural rights' "

How do you feel about this?

I don't like the religious reference; it's clearly a gimme to the religious right. But I agree with the sentiment. The US Declaration of Independence has it stated as follows:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--

The DOI doesn't specify "God", it just says creator, regardless of how we were created.
If you remove the words "god-given" from the platform plank, I agree with it 100%.

[Nirude]

Turkey "supports" ISIS plus I never bought into the whole 'Russia fights ISIS' BS (the ruskies were far better at bombing ISIS' enemies including other islamists groups)

So Erdogan wins and the coup has failed. Erdogan is blaming a muslim cleric living in the US for starting it, so it might not be entirely about secularism/"restoring democracy" as some claim.

I'm not sure yet if its good or not that he stayed in power, most people on both sides of politics dislike him. Erdogan dislikes things like LGBT and may fear joining the EU will have a corrupting influence on his power, so it could be why he appeared to pivot towards Russia recently. And the coup could of been an attempt to get someone who is more in line with globalism and can take orders from EU/US better.. Just a theory..

[Falcon Horus]

For some reason, I can't remember where you are from? I think you said Flanders before, is that right? I don't hear much news out of that region but I remember hearing about assassination plots and far-right politics or something. Well I hope your country stays safe in the future.

Flanders, yes.
Though I must say that's the first I hear of assassination plots...

Flemish parliament consists of a center-right coalition.
Federal government is left-center-right. More balanced, one might say.
Walloon parliament is mostly left-center and as far as the German parliament goes I don't know who's in it. don't hear much from our German-bit of Belgium.

I was mainly refering to how those on the left (communist/socialist, whatever) sometimes think we are giving "birth" to a really great society and how it would happen if people on the right just disappeared overnight. But trust my words, there is nothing special about what is happening here.

We can have a great society but there aren't that many on the left who would want the right to disappear overnight -- less blocking each other would be a good start.

Haha, I chose my words carefully. Definitely the EU! I think it's October 2nd is it that's kind of a judgement day on the EU - the Austrian general election and Hungary refugee referendum. It's obvious the Hungary prime minister wants to capitalize on Brexit and cause a serious stink with the EU

There is no judgement day on the EU - far from it. The sooner we can kick out GB the better. Hungary can go to if they like. They're more trouble than they're worth.

It really boggles my mind that the Bastille day public events in France were so poorly secured that this could happen. Many of my customers tell me that they feel safer in Israel than they do in Europe. I've always put it down to familiarity - we know there are security measures in place and we live with it every day and for us it is reassuring, while in Europe their absence feels wrong to us. But I'm starting to see their point.

The difference, violent attacks are "normal" in your part of the world, they aren't in France.

Anyone know what's going on in Turkey? I heard a coup is going on. Just about to search into it. Very strange since they just allied with Russia unexpectedly.

Military coup to end Erdogan's government and force new elections to ensure the secular democracy.
It failed.

Some even saying Erdogan may have staged it so to gain more power. I wouldn't put it past him, to be quite honest.

They must have corrected that, cause when i was making that post at 3 or so in the morning, they were saying french algerian...

31-year old father who drank, did drugs, never even saw a mosque from the inside, in the middle of a divorce, depressed and angry. Also, a petty criminal.

Ideal cannonfodder it seems.

On that angle, did you notice in early yesterday's white house presser, when asked if the White house was gonna be bathed in blue in honor of the 5 dead cops in Dallas, Tapper seemed to skip around answering the question. Yet the White house was lit up in rainbow colors less than what, 4 hrs after the Scotus decision?

Hardly worthy of a comparison, don't you think.

One's a tragedy, the other is history.

Really worried this is an attempt to undermine Turkish relations with Russia by USA...

Nah, just Erdogan wanting more power.

LOL!!!! ..That'll be the day.. ..still highly unlikely, based on past discussions.

See, she agrees!

And that's why a # of people say 'black lives matter to whom? Not BLM, otherwise they would be in chicago ranting after each round of shootings every weekend it seems"..

From the website of Black Lives Matter:

"Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. It goes beyond the narrow nationalism that can be prevalent within some Black communities, which merely call on Black people to love Black, live Black and buy Black, keeping straight cis Black men in the front of the movement while our sisters, queer and trans and disabled folk take up roles in the background or not at all. Black Lives Matter affirms the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, Black-undocumented folks, folks with records, women and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. It centers those that have been marginalized within Black liberation movements. It is a tactic to (re)build the Black liberation movement."

We Affirm that All Black Lives Matter - Principles

"Black Lives Matter is an ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks’ contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression."

[Gatefan1976]

I don't like the religious reference; it's clearly a gimme to the religious right. But I agree with the sentiment. The US Declaration of Independence has it stated as follows:

The DOI doesn't specify "God", it just says creator, regardless of how we were created.
If you remove the words "god-given" from the platform plank, I agree with it 100%.

I did not mention the D.O.I., mainly because it is not a "legal document"
I mentioned the Establishment Clause, which is.

[Womble]

Ok, then just how much invasion of your privacy are you willing to tolerate? Random traffic checkpoints where you and your vehicle are subject to search at any time without probable cause? Constant surveillance by government authorities? Random searches of your home, again with no warrant or probable cause?
What are you willing to tolerate?

If you want to even pretend to safeguard people, you have to have all of the above, and much more. Because as I said, any numb-nut can take ordinary devices such as a truck and ordinary substances and pervert them into weapons which can be used to kill large amounts of people.

Where do you draw the line?

Actually no, you don't need "all of the above".

Traffic checkpoints I can live with. Surveillance too; fight it all you want but it will persist and expand. I said it before, I have become convinced that "police state" is the next inevitable form which any state wishing to survive will necessarily assume. It's either that, or the state will lose monopoly on violence which is its entire raison d'etre, and degenerate into a Somalia-like anarchic warlord country. But random warrantless searches of your home is not the same as the other two.

[Womble]

From the website of Black Lives Matter:

"Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. It goes beyond the narrow nationalism that can be prevalent within some Black communities, which merely call on Black people to love Black, live Black and buy Black, keeping straight cis Black men in the front of the movement while our sisters, queer and trans and disabled folk take up roles in the background or not at all. Black Lives Matter affirms the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, Black-undocumented folks, folks with records, women and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. It centers those that have been marginalized within Black liberation movements. It is a tactic to (re)build the Black liberation movement."

We Affirm that All Black Lives Matter - Principles

"Black Lives Matter is an ideological and political intervention in a world where Black lives are systematically and intentionally targeted for demise. It is an affirmation of Black folks’ contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression."

Their next stage will be expanding the definition of "Black" ad absurdum to include anyone and everyone that will allow them to latch on to other leftist causes. It's called intersectionality, and it's the end stage of any leftist movement or initiative no matter how it begins.

[Nirude]

Nah, just Erdogan wanting more power.

I wouldn't write it off completely, here's a statement I've just seen from the Turkish Patriotic Party (thanks to wikileaks):

CngDvOXXgAAnpj_.jpg large.jpg

They specifically mention it was a coup to prevent relations between Turkey and Russia (*pats self on back* ). I'm not saying they are 100% correct, but for me it's more believable than the MSM narrative of restoring/forcing secular democracy. I doubt this will be in the news. The globalist empire may be dying quicker than I thought if even Turkey wants out..

Flanders, yes.
Though I must say that's the first I hear of assassination plots...

Flemish parliament consists of a center-right coalition.
Federal government is left-center-right. More balanced, one might say.
Walloon parliament is mostly left-center and as far as the German parliament goes I don't know who's in it. don't hear much from our German-bit of Belgium.

Hmm, maybe it was Austria then. I can't seem to find anything on google, my bad

31-year old father who drank, did drugs, never even saw a mosque from the inside, in the middle of a divorce, depressed and angry. Also, a petty criminal.

Ideal cannonfodder it seems.

They also arrested 4 or 5 people in connection with this. Though I don't think they have said why, possibly a cell.

[Ian-S]

I don't know how similar EU Law is to UK (since most recent additions to ours came from Europe) but here the Police have to arrest anybody they want to question in relation to an offense otherwise you can just walk out at any time, arresting you gives them 24 hours to question you. I know a few who've been arrested 'in connection with' only to be released within a few hours without charge once it's established they had nowt to do with it.

It seems standard procedure to arrest all close relatives in these situations now, which does nothing to quell the distrust and hatred felt towards law enforcement.