The Political Discussion Thread

[Nirude]

Truly Great-Britain-ish...

Except for Wales, of course

If I took people at their word, I'd believe everything you or anyone else said -- or goddess forbid what SGAlisa posts 3/4 of the time.

Why do you think I surf around for info? Not to take you at your word and see for myself.

Also, as far as education goes -- I told you then and I'm telling you know, I grew up surrounded by teachers and principals. They brought their work home, or took their kids with to work (literally as I had both my mom and my aunt as teachers -- not fun btw).

For some reason, I can't remember where you are from? I think you said Flanders before, is that right? I don't hear much news out of that region but I remember hearing about assassination plots and far-right politics or something. Well I hope your country stays safe in the future.

Love beats hate!
Prayfor...[insert city/country/person of choice]
Love wins!
Love = Love
Black lives matter
All lives matter
Blue lives matter

Changing the color of your profile with the flag of [insert country of choice].
Color the buildings in flag colors.

All of the above, don't do anything to change a situation like the attacks in France, Belgium, the US, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, India, Bangladesh... but ordinary people like you and I, we don't have the power to make a direct change (unless you want to become a martyr in which case you're no better than the enemy).

We can vote when elections happen, and make changes that way. We can call for change (by using the above statements). And when we scream loud enough, and make enough noise maybe someone will listen to our voices and initiate change.

** Note: I don't change my profile picture and/or pray for anyone. Changing a profile picture won't help anyone, and religion's what's gotten us into a lot the messes currently in play.

Yes I agree, but if I am ever forced to choose between freedom and slavery - I'll pick freedom, regardless of what happens to me. May that day never happen.

And I think a lot of the celebrities have been very irresponsible by getting involved with these hashtags and having very little follow through. I like Godfrey Elfwick's take on it ha https://twitter.com/GodfreyElfwick/s...37632258134016

Looks like you are one of those unfortunate souls who can't tell the difference between socialism and communism. My condolences.

I was mainly refering to how those on the left (communist/socialist, whatever) sometimes think we are giving "birth" to a really great society and how it would happen if people on the right just disappeared overnight. But trust my words, there is nothing special about what is happening here.

France has elections coming up in 2017 -- Le Pen and her possy will gain ground, don't worry (if that's the kind of right you like to be associated with)
Germany also has federal elections coming up in 2017 -- Merkel might not make it back to the leading stage.

The EU or Europe?

Haha, I chose my words carefully. Definitely the EU! I think it's October 2nd is it that's kind of a judgement day on the EU - the Austrian general election and Hungary refugee referendum. It's obvious the Hungary prime minister wants to capitalize on Brexit and cause a serious stink with the EU

But anyways, just playing with my daughter now, it's hard not to think of the 10 children killed and the 54 in hospital. It's the screaming from those movies that gets me. Poor kids And I hate how CNN Is covering it up by just calling them "people" and hardly mentioning the children like other news sites are leading with - I know they are not friends with Trump (the "dead network" insult) and don't want to give him any ground, but that's just poor form all around.

[Womble]

It really boggles my mind that the Bastille day public events in France were so poorly secured that this could happen. Many of my customers tell me that they feel safer in Israel than they do in Europe. I've always put it down to familiarity - we know there are security measures in place and we live with it every day and for us it is reassuring, while in Europe their absence feels wrong to us. But I'm starting to see their point.

The house in which I currently live is just opposite the central square of my house where, on each holiday, there are free concerts featuring popular singers. Thousands gather. And yet no one could pull off a Nice-style truck rampage because the Israeli police anticipates things like this and takes simple, cost-effective precautions. There are four streets leading to the square. At the end of each of them, a bus is parked perpendicular to the street direction, so that no vehicle could squeeze past it. I suppose one would need a few more buses to block off the public celebration areas in larger cities like Nice or Paris - or some other kind of barrier - but it does not require expensive investments or fancy technology. Just good old common sense.

[Annoyed]

Tunisian, not Algerian.

Horrible stuff. More than half the wounded are children.

The most frightening thing for me is the ease with which one person killed and maimed so many. One guy with a truck and some guns that he barely got to use. Almost all the dead and wounded are from being run over by the truck. European societies are ill-equipped to provide public security in the new situation. And that's after the relatively recent attacks in Paris and Brussels.

No even semi-free society is able to provide complete security against attackers who are willing to sacrifice their own lives in the process, whether by the violence of the attack itself or the aftermath when the cops shoot him.
In the states, 50 people are killed at a nightclub by a gun-toting nut. This guy didn't even bother with his guns, he simply uses a truck and kills 80. Far more efficient than guns anyway.

The point is that unless we want to live as WWII era Germany did, with SS conducting random searches, no privacy rights whatsoever, and all the rest of the trimmings of that type of society, we can't really stop this kind of crap.

How long before some well-meaning? government tries to sell that kind of setup to its people as "required for their security"


If you allow your citizens free movement, without gestapo style checkpoints and patrols, you can't stop people from using things as weapons, regardless of their primary function. It is simply too easy for someone with a couple of brain cells to rub together to pervert some useful, everyday substance or tool into something to kill large amounts of people with.

[garhkal]

No, that is exactly what you said, a mob.

Flash mobs are still organized.. especially those ones who choreographed their stuff (and watching some of the videos of it, some are very well done..

Again man, "flags" don't prevent someone from getting a gun. Buying -a gun- (even a semi-auto rifle) and a box of ammo (so 200,500 or 1000 rounds) is not an "uncommon" purchase, it's just -one gun-. Even the no fly list can't stop people from getting a gun.
I also note you yourself are now saying you need at least "better" laws.

But if those flags, on people's records prompted more investigation before Issuing those guns, (IE more enforcement) rahter than as it seems at times, PC bull just makes the flags get ignored, then it Could stop some of those getting their hands on the weapons they use..

No, no nonono, Find the statistics not of homicides, but GUN related deaths. Homicide does not equal "gun involved"

Did you even read the last line of that quote i had?? What else do you see the [term "legal intervention" covers any situation when a person dies at the hands of anyone authorized to use deadly force in the line of duty. ] as being anything But someone being shot???

Here is the thing though dude, most of the time when you see people getting miffed over BLM, or Feminism, rather than doing something -constructive- like starting a group to help their own cause, they start groups to crap on the other groups.
Don't you think that is somewhat strange?

It depends on what their critizsm is.. Most of mine is in HOW they do their 'raising hell' to raise awareness. If anything it PUSHES more people away than it draws in..

Blacks are responsible for being shot by cops?

Read what i said. THey are ranting about deaths of blacks. BUT blacks by and large, kill each other a heck of a lot more so than whites kill blacks..

I have limits on it as well, but mine is when the life can exist independently of it's mother. What -annoys- me is when people add in "local ordinances" that can prevent a woman from getting the abortion earlier so they then go past the federal guidelines.

From what i remember of laws and state vs federal. You can't BY law, make a federal more Lenient, but can make it stricter.. So what is therefore wrong about adding in a local (state) ordinance to make abortion harder than what the federal law prescribes?

Are you asking me from a legal standpoint, or an emotional one?
Legally, the answer is C
Emotionally, I feel that forcing a woman to have a child when she does not want one is an overreach of governmental authority. Of course, that is a personal moral position as well. In short, no one is forcing anyone to have an abortion, it's a -choice- and I don't see why someone else's choice that will never affect me should be in the hands of the government.

From both. Even if on the "moral side", it is a choice of theirs, we punish all sorts of choices that break the law.. So if their choice is to get an abortion WHEN it has been made illegal, why shouldn't they get punished for it?

Can you provide any examples where protesters have stopped EMS/fire services and not been at least arrested by the police?

None as of yet. Which is why my initial question is SHOULD they be charged in that manner... NOT Have they been charged...

and that covers a lot of the world. Not even all places in Africa and the M-E live under dictatorships.

While many of those African/ME nations may have voting, they still imo operate similarly to how dictatorial countries (china/NK) act..

Great, isn't it

Not really. Heck last nights Local news, had a snippet on how 2 CCW permit qualifiers, had been arrested and charge for fraud, by cooking the books on how many had fully qualified via going through the entire courses rather than what the instructors had then go through... I heard a similar story a few months back from a former Seabee who retired out in Tx, where 2 guys got nabbed for faking permits just across the border in Louisiana (supposedly)..
Its Schnizit like that which makes me feel one state should NOT have to recognize a permit from another without some form of proper verification.. Same with states which issue drivers licenses to illegals.. IMO i feel every other state should NOT be required to recognize them..

No, they are not the same, you are quite right, but what I am getting at is that the propensity for violence is -strong- in humans, we are hardwired for fight or flight and it did not suddenly "arise" with computer games.

True, we have been killing one another since we came into being. It just SEEMS that there has been a lot more mass shootings, school shootings etc in the past 25-30 years, than in the preceding 100+ years combined.. And the only real thing i can see (besides removal of god from schools and such) that might be Why that is, is the mix of a lot of shooter games, glorification of violence films etc..

Before the commonality of semi-auto rifles, you would not have mass shootings? The only people who -bothered- to get semi-automatic weapons were not street thugs, but serious criminal organizations like the Mafia during the prohibition, and they certainly did mow down more than a few people in their time.

You kind of make my point for me. We have had entire decades ruled by mafia/crime families and such, but there wasn't the 'normal off his rocks folk' doing said mass shootings.. Compare that to now days.

It's not that our morals have "changed", it's that with the rise of mass communications, we know more. I'll give you an example. Before Martin Bryant shot up over 30 people in Tasmania, there were a good half dozen or more mass shootings in Australia, yet I doubt anyone outside of Australia would have known about them -at the time-.
We are bombarded with a never ending torrent of negativity.

True, we are hearing it more, but is that cause its only being reported more often, or cause its also happening more often? Heck is it also linked to the '15 minutes of fame' crapola in regards to people wanting to be internet stars/famous etc??

Are you suggesting that people calling for tolerance should embrace intolerance?
Isn't that something that by definition they -should- be intolerant of?

No, what i am saying is if YOU want someone to tolerate you and your viewpoint, then you should tolerate THEM and their viewpoint. Demanding tolerance while not showing any back is imo the height of intolerance and hypocrisy.

[Nirude]

Anyone know what's going on in Turkey? I heard a coup is going on. Just about to search into it. Very strange since they just allied with Russia unexpectedly.

[garhkal]

French-Tunesian, not Algerian.

They must have corrected that, cause when i was making that post at 3 or so in the morning, they were saying french algerian...

Changing the color of your profile with the flag of [insert country of choice].
Color the buildings in flag colors.

On that angle, did you notice in early yesterday's white house presser, when asked if the White house was gonna be bathed in blue in honor of the 5 dead cops in Dallas, Tapper seemed to skip around answering the question. Yet the White house was lit up in rainbow colors less than what, 4 hrs after the Scotus decision?

Tunisian, not Algerian.

Horrible stuff. More than half the wounded are children.

The most frightening thing for me is the ease with which one person killed and maimed so many. One guy with a truck and some guns that he barely got to use. Almost all the dead and wounded are from being run over by the truck. European societies are ill-equipped to provide public security in the new situation. And that's after the relatively recent attacks in Paris and Brussels.

And many of those ran over, are in such condition that they are thought they won't be making it, adding to the death toll...
Truely sad.

[Nirude]

Really worried this is an attempt to undermine Turkish relations with Russia by USA...

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

Jel! We could make a fortune in here selling tinfoil hats..

[SGalisa]

Really worried this is an attempt to undermine Turkish relations with Russia by USA...

hmmm. Really? That sounds different than the report I heard from WCBS radio news.
Wouldn't be surprising tho, since our current PTB administration seem to be at extreme odds with Russia.

If I took people at their word, I'd believe everything you or anyone else said -- or goddess forbid what SGAlisa posts 3/4 of the time.

LOL!!!! ..That'll be the day.. ..still highly unlikely, based on past discussions.

[SoulReaver]

Turkey & Russia allied? ain't that a surprise

On that angle, did you notice in early yesterday's white house presser, when asked if the White house was gonna be bathed in blue in honor of the 5 dead cops in Dallas, Tapper seemed to skip around answering the question.

also the tens of thousands of honest taxpayers murdered/year, no honour for them either :/

[Annoyed]

Jel! We could make a fortune in here selling tinfoil hats..

And you thought I was crazy, cornering the tinfoil market a year and a half or so ago.

[Nirude]

Turkey & Russia allied? ain't that a surprise :|

Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with Turkey, ROW and Russia. I thought they hated each other. Then they didn't. Then coup. Lol. Only time will reveal.

[SoulReaver]

Honestly, I have no idea what's going on with Turkey, ROW and Russia. I thought they hated each other

Turkey "supports" ISIS plus I never bought into the whole 'Russia fights ISIS' BS (the ruskies were far better at bombing ISIS' enemies including other islamists groups)

[Gatefan1976]

Flash mobs are still organized.. especially those ones who choreographed their stuff (and watching some of the videos of it, some are very well done..

If you have people deliberately their filming and choreographing, yes that shows evidence of organization. But "5.30, number 10 bus everyone do the chicken dance" in a tweet or FB post, you still have -no- control on who will show up and what they will do, or what the people who have not seen the tweet/post will do/react.

But if those flags, on people's records prompted more investigation before Issuing those guns, (IE more enforcement) rahter than as it seems at times, PC bull just makes the flags get ignored, then it Could stop some of those getting their hands on the weapons they use..

You mean like the proposal from the Republicans to give the FBI 72 hours to investigate?

Did you even read the last line of that quote i had?? What else do you see the [term "legal intervention" covers any situation when a person dies at the hands of anyone authorized to use deadly force in the line of duty. ] as being anything But someone being shot???

I read it all. The stats are not just gun related deaths. Just because you can't imagine any other way a cop can kill someone, simply isn't a concern or a "fact".

It depends on what their critizsm is.. Most of mine is in HOW they do their 'raising hell' to raise awareness. If anything it PUSHES more people away than it draws in..

That is certainly a risk, and it does happen.

Read what i said. THey are ranting about deaths of blacks. BUT blacks by and large, kill each other a heck of a lot more so than whites kill blacks..

But they are not complaining about deaths caused by gang violence, are they.

From what i remember of laws and state vs federal. You can't BY law, make a federal more Lenient, but can make it stricter.. So what is therefore wrong about adding in a local (state) ordinance to make abortion harder than what the federal law prescribes?

It's not about making it "harder", it's about preventing people from using the law and their rights. Examples are situations where they change building codes to make Abortion clinics have to be built to hospital code to deliberately sending such groups out of business, or making women wait a week or more to push them outside of the time they can no longer get an abortion legally at all.
Do you see the difference?

From both. Even if on the "moral side", it is a choice of theirs, we punish all sorts of choices that break the law.. So if their choice is to get an abortion WHEN it has been made illegal, why shouldn't they get punished for it?

This is the legal argument, and I already said the answer is C, both are accountable. The moral side (personal morality) has nothing to do with the law. If someone feels they could never have an abortion, that's their moral choice, If someone can, it's their moral choice and as long as the law does not prevent it, no ones choice but theirs.

None as of yet. Which is why my initial question is SHOULD they be charged in that manner... NOT Have they been charged...

Then it is not relevant, is it.

While many of those African/ME nations may have voting, they still imo operate similarly to how dictatorial countries (china/NK) act..

Sure, but the vast majority of the world does not live under dictatorships, which was my point.

Not really. Heck last nights Local news, had a snippet on how 2 CCW permit qualifiers, had been arrested and charge for fraud, by cooking the books on how many had fully qualified via going through the entire courses rather than what the instructors had then go through... I heard a similar story a few months back from a former Seabee who retired out in Tx, where 2 guys got nabbed for faking permits just across the border in Louisiana (supposedly)..
Its Schnizit like that which makes me feel one state should NOT have to recognize a permit from another without some form of proper verification.. Same with states which issue drivers licenses to illegals.. IMO i feel every other state should NOT be required to recognize them..

T'was sarcasm my friend, but you are at least seeing part of the problem for what it is.

True, we have been killing one another since we came into being. It just SEEMS that there has been a lot more mass shootings, school shootings etc in the past 25-30 years, than in the preceding 100+ years combined..

Look to the amount of high cap weapons are in the hands of civilians. 30 years ago, no one but a hunter would even bother with a rifle, and a hunter certainly would not choose a weapon with the capability to -decimate- it's target if it wanted to use the animal for anything. Bolt action .303 will take down most medium sized game in one shot and leave the carcass for food, tanning and trophy making/taxidermy. People in the cities if they felt they needed a gun would probably get nothing more than a revolver.

And the only real thing i can see (besides removal of god from schools and such) that might be Why that is, is the mix of a lot of shooter games, glorification of violence films etc..

Ask yourself a question.
Why does "joe public" buy a gun?

You kind of make my point for me. We have had entire decades ruled by mafia/crime families and such, but there wasn't the 'normal off his rocks folk' doing said mass shootings.. Compare that to now days.

The people off their trollies used different weapons.
Also, most criminal organizations didn't really want to kill a lot of civilians, -most- don't even today because it draws unwanted attention by the cops. The criminal element -generally- keeps to itself unless it is doing something criminal that affects the GP.

True, we are hearing it more, but is that cause its only being reported more often, or cause its also happening more often? Heck is it also linked to the '15 minutes of fame' crapola in regards to people wanting to be internet stars/famous etc??

Homicide rates in the US have actually been -declining- in trend over the last 30 odd years (with spikes, granted). Gun proponents will say it is because of guns, but gun ownership rates are down as well, so that is an unlikely reason.

No, what i am saying is if YOU want someone to tolerate you and your viewpoint, then you should tolerate THEM and their viewpoint. Demanding tolerance while not showing any back is imo the height of intolerance and hypocrisy.

Can you give me some examples where "lefties" are intolerant of "righty" viewpoints when that viewpoint is not intolerant?
I mean, if your viewpoint is "all blacks are criminals and all Mexicans are drug runners and rapists", how is unfair to say you are a racist for holding those views?

[garhkal]

also the tens of thousands of honest taxpayers murdered/year, no honour for them either :|

For me, if he's gonna light up the WH in 'honor of one thing', he should do it for the others...

Really worried this is an attempt to undermine Turkish relations with Russia by USA...

Yea, someone elsewhere mentioned they thought they just heard about a Coup going on in Turkey. CNN verified it around 4pm iirc.

If you have people deliberately their filming and choreographing, yes that shows evidence of organization. But "5.30, number 10 bus everyone do the chicken dance" in a tweet or FB post, you still have -no- control on who will show up and what they will do, or what the people who have not seen the tweet/post will do/react.

I'll give you that...

You mean like the proposal from the Republicans to give the FBI 72 hours to investigate?

In a way, yes. BUT what's the point in them investigating, when many of those recent attackers have been CHECKED out and then cleared..

I read it all. The stats are not just gun related deaths. Just because you can't imagine any other way a cop can kill someone, simply isn't a concern or a "fact".

While, yes i can snap your neck, kick you hard enough in the chest to crush your sternum, smash your skull with a brick, generally every time i hear 'deadly force + cops" being used, its meaning being shot.

But they are not complaining about deaths caused by gang violence, are they.

And that's why a # of people say 'black lives matter to whom? Not BLM, otherwise they would be in chicago ranting after each round of shootings every weekend it seems"..

It's not about making it "harder", it's about preventing people from using the law and their rights. Examples are situations where they change building codes to make Abortion clinics have to be built to hospital code to deliberately sending such groups out of business, or making women wait a week or more to push them outside of the time they can no longer get an abortion legally at all.
Do you see the difference?

And states implementing troublesome requirements on someone say getting a gun license, even going so far in some places that you not only get state licensed, but then county and city for CCWs? How is that not "preventing someone exercising their rights"?
Or like CA is doing, taxing Bullet sales...

Then it is not relevant, is it.

Which is why it was offered up as a hypothetical.. To get minds thinking.

Look to the amount of high cap weapons are in the hands of civilians. 30 years ago, no one but a hunter would even bother with a rifle, and a hunter certainly would not choose a weapon with the capability to -decimate- it's target if it wanted to use the animal for anything. Bolt action .303 will take down most medium sized game in one shot and leave the carcass for food, tanning and trophy making/taxidermy. People in the cities if they felt they needed a gun would probably get nothing more than a revolver.

And i have not had a problem on limiting mags to 10 rounds for rifles/pistols..

Ask yourself a question.
Why does "joe public" buy a gun?

Of the 30 or so people i know personally who have one..
Over a dozen do it for personal protection
8 do it cause they hunt
7 have them cause they target shoot as part of a club
2 have one cause they want one and 2 have it cause they are preppers..

Can you give me some examples where "lefties" are intolerant of "righty" viewpoints when that viewpoint is not intolerant?

How's about many college campuses, flat out ranting/rioting when they hear this or that conservative speaker is going to be on campus, cause someone there ASKED them to come.. Or as reported on a few times, college professors actually marking DOWN someone who spouted a conservative view point on an essay and the like..?