Religious Beliefs

[~Dave]

Here's a little tidbit I just remembered from studying the Bible. Psalm 22 describes in perfect detail the Crucifiction of Jesus. It describes the words uttered, and how those who witnessed the event acted. Read it. Then read the accounts of the actual event. Yet this Psalm was written nearly 500BC. For those impressed by how well evolution predicts the species we see here today, this has got to give you pause. There were supposedly hundreds of predictions like this regarding the Messiah when He arrives. And the chances of every one of them coming true in one single individual is something close to astronomical. So, what is going on here? It makes me wonder.

~Dave

[Betelgeuze]

Dangerous in what way? I don't see how it is dangerous to question anything. We just try to follow the evidence where ever it leads us. (Quote from CSI. LOL!) Unless you can prove that there is no such thing as a soul, maybe not considering this is what's dangerous. I simply don't know.

People often use their religious beliefs to prevent scientific inquiry. When science proved the heliocentric model of the solar system, the Church rejected it in favour of their religious conviction, and Galileo was punished.

Policies have to be based on the facts not on unfounded speculation.

I'm also not sure the BBT is complicated. So far it seems pretty straight forward, to me. Something existed, exploded, and the universe is the debris from that explosion. In my opinion, a God would not complicate this. It would simplify it. And the simplest explanation is supposed to be the desired one in science. At least that's what I get from Occam's Razor. And until I get some information as to what happened to create the first matter, I can't rule out God. But God won't stop me from trying to find out.

A creator would complicate things, because then the origin of the creator has to be explained. Like i said before, if a creator can exist without being created by something else, then so can the universe.

Here's a little tidbit I just remembered from studying the Bible. Psalm 22 describes in perfect detail the Crucifiction of Jesus. It describes the words uttered, and how those who witnessed the event acted. Read it. Then read the accounts of the actual event. Yet this Psalm was written nearly 500BC. For those impressed by how well evolution predicts the species we see here today, this has got to give you pause. There were supposedly hundreds of predictions like this regarding the Messiah when He arrives. And the chances of every one of them coming true in one single individual is something close to astronomical. So, what is going on here? It makes me wonder.

Other explanations are: 1. The NT was written after the OT, anyone familiar with the stories in the OT could have used this to make the events in the NT match them. 2. The Bible stories can interpreted in such a way that they appear to be predictions.

Also the Bible is not the only holy book that seems to predict future events. The Hindus make the same claims about their holy texts. So even if the Bible contains predictions, this in no way makes it more true then the other holy texts, because they also contain predictions.

[tombombadil]

Here's a little tidbit I just remembered from studying the Bible. Psalm 22 describes in perfect detail the Crucifiction of Jesus. It describes the words uttered, and how those who witnessed the event acted. Read it. Then read the accounts of the actual event. Yet this Psalm was written nearly 500BC. For those impressed by how well evolution predicts the species we see here today, this has got to give you pause. There were supposedly hundreds of predictions like this regarding the Messiah when He arrives. And the chances of every one of them coming true in one single individual is something close to astronomical. So, what is going on here? It makes me wonder.

~Dave

how 'bout they changed a few facts to make the crucification match the events of the old testament. not that hard to explain

[Ltcolshepjumper]

The existence of a god is not necessary to explain the existence of the universe. If a god created the universe then how did this god came into existence? If this god does not need a creator, then why would the universe need one?

The universe is physical. Everything that is physical must be created. God is spiritual. He had no beginning because He is not subject to time. Time has a beginning. God, who established time, has no beginning. He is eternal.

[~Dave]

how 'bout they changed a few facts to make the crucification match the events of the old testament. not that hard to explain

Psalm 22 is a prediction of the event reflected by historical record in the NT told by 4 different people from different points of view, and yet each describe basically the same details. I have no reason to call anyone a liar or to suspect the records have been altered down through the years. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

Betelgeuze, I'm not familiar with Hinduism. What events do they predict?

~Dave

[Morbo]

So, is there a God, or not? The only way science can answer that for me is to tell me one thing. How did the first "something" get created out of nothing? No matter how far you go into the universe and it's creation, it all boils down to this one question. And could this happen as a natural phenomenon, or did it have to be Divine?

~Dave

by your logic i can ask you how was God created, then?

science continuously disproves religion.
it's been going on since copernicus.

give it up already.
embrace science. it's way more awesome than faith.

[~Dave]

by your logic i can ask you how was God created, then?

science continuously disproves religion.
it's been going on since copernicus.

give it up already.
embrace science. it's way more awesome than faith.

Oh, I do embrace science. I'm quite fascinated by it. Especially space science. I just love to watch and listen to documentaries on TV. The possibilities just are astounding. With regard to religion, though, it's confusing. For example, just because past "holy men" have misrepresented and practiced a religion badly and falsely, doesn't mean the original intent of the religion is entirely bad. And even today people who call themselves religious use their religion to do things that are not acceptable according to what they claim to believe. Gives it all a bad rap. Not to say, I accept it all out of hand. I'm just saying I don't know.

Another example is a previous poster referred to the unfounded idea that human beings have a soul is dangerous because it is used to block stem cell research. Well, until someone proves that human beings have no soul, I said it might be dangerous not to consider this point of view.

I don't discount religion just because some people practice it badly. There are many frauds in the scientific community as well. So even though I love to think about science, and the many wondrous things it contemplates, I simply don't know enough yet to say religion is false. I think it takes considerable prejudice/faith to declare one right over the other, when so much of both cannot be proved one way or the other.

~Dave

[shipper hannah]

So, is there a God, or not? The only way science can answer that for me is to tell me one thing. How did the first "something" get created out of nothing? No matter how far you go into the universe and it's creation, it all boils down to this one question. And could this happen as a natural phenomenon, or did it have to be Divine?

~Dave

Time is a dimension of the universe. Causality only makes sense within the concept of time. Ergo, it is nonsensical to talk of causes.

[Coco Pops]

OK this is going to sound totally stupid but if God does exist why can't he just pop in and show himself to the world and then everyone would believe?, Or mostly everyone.

[~Dave]

Time is a dimension of the universe. Causality only makes sense within the concept of time. Ergo, it is nonsensical to talk of causes.

I like that! So, from that, it seems to me the concept of infinity has nothing to do with time itself? Something in this universe can not have always been and always will be?

One law of science I heard of is that matter cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be changed from one form into another. I wonder if that's true when you consider the idea of the Big Bang?

~Dave

[~Dave]

OK this is going to sound totally stupid but if God does exist why can't he just pop in and show himself to the world and then everyone would believe?, Or mostly everyone.

Oh my! How many times have I asked that question!! Or for that matter, if God wants His word spread, why can't He just do it Himself? Why does he need us to do it for Him? Seems to me that one human being has no reason to believe this stuff when it just comes from another fallible person. Or, if He just wants a certain kind of soul to be with Him in Heaven in the end, why not just create those souls to begin with, and stop what seems like non-sense going on in this world? Why create so many He's just going to have to destroy in the end? A lot of religion makes no sense to me.

~Dave

[jenks]

The universe is physical. Everything that is physical must be created.

Prove it.

God is spiritual. He had no beginning because He is not subject to time. Time has a beginning. God, who established time, has no beginning. He is eternal.

See above.

[tombombadil]

Psalm 22 is a prediction of the event reflected by historical record in the NT told by 4 different people from different points of view, and yet each describe basically the same details. I have no reason to call anyone a liar or to suspect the records have been altered down through the years. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it.

that would be religous record. not historical. by your logic the old prophecies of Greek Paganism that came true when the religion was still extremely wide spread must be true.

[AvatarIII]

I like that! So, from that, it seems to me the concept of infinity has nothing to do with time itself? Something in this universe can not have always been and always will be?

One law of science I heard of is that matter cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be changed from one form into another. I wonder if that's true when you consider the idea of the Big Bang?

~Dave

whilst that statement is truem it is normally associated with the fact energy cannot be destroyed, only changed, however matter and energy are interchangable, ie, matter can be made out of energy, and turned into energy, the simplest this can be explained is with matter/anti-matter, where matter and anti-matter come together they annihilate each other leaving only energy, therefore it is safe to say that if you have enough energy you can create matter and anti-matter.

[Myn McGeek, Third Sentinel]

With regard to the highlighted text, these are the people who claim this is approximately the year 6000. I don't know the exact number. But you get the idea? It was a 24 hour clock/day.

*edit* This was from the creation of the animals, plants, and mankind given at the beginning of Genesis. Before that, the Earth was here, but we have no way of knowing what was here, or what happened. All we can do is dig up remains, and theorize. At least according to the people you mention.

~Dave

I only mentioned the Hebrew language, not the Jews themselves. The Bible was written in the Hebrew language, so we have to take that into account when reading it translated into English. I don't believe everything the Jews believe, I go by what's in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible itself does it say the world is 6000 years old, and neither does it say it was a 24 hour day.

Ohne, I do have something against Catholic practices, as praying to saints is not biblical. In fact, the Bible makes no distinction between the Catholic "Saints" and saints as refering to believers in general. As well, the New Testament clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ.

Do you and would you ask a friend or family member to pray for you? Do you yourself pray for others? That is all we do; ask Mary and the saints to pray for us, just like we would each other.

As well, the N.T. also clearly states that we may come boldly unto the throne of grace. It mentions nothing about Mary. She was a vessel used by God. She is not God's mother, but the mother of Christ. Because Christ is fully God and fully man, and yet God is spirit and not man, Mary is the mother of Christ. However, Christ himself never gave his mother any special recognition. Remember when Christ was told that His family was waiting for Him? He pointed to His disciples and said "Behold, my mother and brethren."

Jesus is fully man and fully God. As the Mother of the One who is fully God, she is the Mother of God. And He certainly did show her recognition, as any good son would.

Spoiler:

And because we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us, we have direct access to the Father through Christ Jesus. We do not need any other mediator. And, God certainly rewards the good done by men, works without salvation through Christ is meaningless. One must have the Holy Spirit to be saved. Hell is a consequence. But remember, there is a punishment. the lake of fire is a spiritual place of punishment. Those not written in the book of life will not enter into Heaven. The lake of fire is not merely a place absent from God, but a place of perpetual, eternal torment.

Oh, and when the Bible says that God made every animal after it's own kind, I think it actually means it. Now, the OT does not distinguish between a whale and a fish, but describes the animals as the fish of the sea, the fowl of the air, the cattle, and the creeping things. Now, I think it's pretty clear that each animal familia was created as its own kind. And while we do know that the DNA of certain species diversifies and differentiates over time, we do not know for certain whether one type of animal can turn into another, like a reptile into a bird. The Bible clearly distinguishes the two. As well, the bible clearly says that God made man as man, not as a primate-like animal that became homo sapiens.

Also, I will say that those outside of Christ don't necessarily do God's will. God will direct circumstances so that His will is accomplished. That's what Paul meant when He wrote, "All things work together for good to them that love God, that are called according to His purpose." That means that even the evil that people do, will in the end work together to achieve God's will. that's why we speak of God's perfect will and God's permissive will.

The Bible is the divinely inspired record of God's love and righteousness. It contains everything man needs to live holy. Sure, the Bible was written by men. But it is in no wise just a rip off from other religions. Christianity, and our holidays were set up to replace the Roman pagan days, (and it is suspected that the concept of the disciples and other Biblical followers of Christ as "Saints" was meant to replace the Roman gods and goddesses).

The New Testament was written during the Roman Empire, around 60-69 A.D, because that's when the Apostles were aging and msot of their missionary work in reaching the lost and establishing churches was finished. The OT stretches back to around 4000 BC, I believe, following the Hebrew escape from bondage. So, the Bible in it's entirety was completed over a period of 4000 years. Now it wasn't collectively called the Bible then.

And here is where our beliefs differ. I certainly understand where your coming from, and when you really get down to it, our beliefs are very similar, but there are many specifics that we're just going to have to agree to disagree with.

Does this apply to every decision making process? Surely if someone is that literal then they effectively have "no free will" at all and have divorced themselves from any kind of thought process.

If that is called living we may as well be robots.

No....... I chose to obey God. It is my will. I am not living as a robot.

Just because you obey the laws set down by your government, does that make you a robot? Because you're not free to murder your brother without serious consequences, does that take away your free will?

No.

out of pure curiosity, what are your beliefs on evolution myn? i won't criticize you if they aren't the same as mine

I believe whatever is the mainstream scientific view. I can't say my beliefs are exactly like yours, because I believe that God created life through evolution and that the laws of nature and physics were created by God. Science is just our way of understanding the universe that God created.

I'm fuzzy on the free will thing as well. They say God is all knowing. So He knows what I'm going to do every second of my entire life. So, if my actions are known before I make them, then how do I have free will? Don't I have to do exactly what God knows I will do? I cannot choose to do anything else? Definitely not clear on this one either.

~Dave

Just because He knows what you're going to choose to do, it doesn't take away your free will to do it.

by your logic i can ask you how was God created, then?

science continuously disproves religion.
it's been going on since copernicus.

give it up already.
embrace science. it's way more awesome than faith.

And yet I believe in both fully.

I've embraced science. And faith. I be doubly awesome.

that would be religous record. not historical.

Historical record shows that there was in fact a Jesus and that He was crucified.