General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[Shipperahoy]

But then, fortunately, I don't have to buy it, do I? I can write the final chapter of Food Server Diaries without ever having to watch an ep of S8.

Fine, but if Jonas comes back and Luke finally takes someone out with his lemon chicken then you'll miss it!

[ShadowMaat]

but please. for the love of anything you hold dear. please. tell me that you didn't like how they did it on moonlighting or on voyager.

That's comparing apples to cupcakes to hand grenades, that is. Those shows have entirely different "feels" than Stargate does. At least for me. V-ger was more character oriented (not that I watched it, anyway) and Moonlighting was light fluff. I was also a lot younger when I watched it. And I think that when the two of them finally went from UST to RST, the show went downhill.

I like ship on Gilmore Girls, but again, I see that as being more character-oriented whereas I consider Stargate plot-driven. I also think that Luke and Lorelai actually have some romantic chemistry.

just for curiosity, what precisesly about how the ship was handled did you not like. from a writing, directing, producing, general point of view. what would you change.

First and foremost, I have never for one moment believed that Sam and Jack had any romantic chemistry. I bought them as friends, I can see a bit of good-natured rivalry between them (blunt force vs. scientific/thinking approach), but the two of them in love? No way. I can't see it. Which is part of the reason why having their "relationship" suddenly at the fore of everything is so aggravating: it looks forced and unnatural to me. It feels like the producers said, "These two are in love. Act like it!"

I also object to the fact that the ship has been pushed to the forefront of eps. It feels, to me, as if TPTB are saying that THIS relationship is more important than anything else. More important than good plotting, more important than the other characters, it's bigger and better than everything around it. I get the feeling that some plots/scenes are written around ship, rather than having ship written around a plot/scene.

I know that for a lot of people, the characters are the most important part of the show, but for me, it's the stories that are my primary draw to the show, and by "stories" I'm talking about actual scifi plots, not angsty in-depth looks at one character's feelings for another character. I'm all for character development, but not at the expense of good plotting. I feel that there was very little good plotting in the past season of Stargate.

I also object to the way that some scenes are blocked to put an emphasis on ship rather than on the actual action or the other characters. Jack and Sam making moopy eyes at each other is not my idea of conveying the drama of the moment. I also think it'd be nice if the producers could remember that there are still two other people on the team and that both of them also have a vested interest in the welfare of both Jack and Sam. They are ALL friends. I'd like to see more of that, more interaction with the others, than just getting the Sam & Jack Show.

What would I change? Well, as I said in my previous post, I think it's too late to change. But if I could go back and stop ship from becoming so overt, I would. Sadly, there isn't much point in discussing that since it doesn't do anyone any good and would only serve to make me even more bitter and frustrated. You don't want that, do you?

[ShadowMaat]

Fine, but if Jonas comes back and Luke finally takes someone out with his lemon chicken then you'll miss it!

Yeah, but there are enough people around that I'd be able to pick up on any important appearances like that in enough time to either watch the ep or catch the rerun. Or download it.

[stargate barbie]

i too would like less overt ship. but i don't think it's THAT overt. i think chimera was completely unneccessary, same goes for a hundred days. the osiris bit in chimera was ok. the meteor shower bits and the building a particle generator in a hundred days was ok. i hated the rest. at first i thought pete was going to be ok. but i quickly changed my mind. at no point during a hundred days did i think laira was ok. for many reasons. but at least she was remotely related to the theme of the show, i.e. Stargate!
thats why i didn't have a problem with FIAD, although its not one i watch too often, it does relate directly to the arc of the show. i wasn't too keen on crossroads.
i did really like the AU episodes, because they were related to the main theme of the show, with a smidge of ship mixed in.

i love subtle ship, because i think it can be interpreted any way you like. however at the end of the series i would like to see some indication that sam and jack either have or may have gotten together. the anti shippers can just pretend that they broke up shortly afterwards having realised they were crazy in the first place, the shippers can have hope that they stayed together. whatever. go nuts!
i'm not gonna be absolutely heart-broken if it doesn't happen.
i do like to see a (not real, no consequences) kiss or cuddley bit per season at least, just cos i do see a lot of chemistry there and i do see the potential for more between the characters.
teal'c seems to get some good lovin' too quite a bit. poor daniel seems to be all loved out after the first few seasons. the only one that fancied him after season 3 was a snake. and maybe cha'ka

i love the sci fi episodes that let us into the characters personality and lives through the telling of the story. not the ones that are about the characters lives and forget the stargate has anything to do with the show.

there. i started that discussion. now get more frustrated and bitter. i wanna see what happens

[Liebestraume]

The problem with romance in a team show, is that by its very nature it is exclusive, it excludes those outside the chosen pairing. It pushes one relationship at the expense of the others. The first three seasons showed friendship between all of the team members, but the attempt to introduce a romance excludes all others. For example, in the first three seasons Daniel and Sam were good friends, in fact, I would have said that they were closer than Jack and Sam were. Suddenly we get season 4, Divide and Conquer and Daniel and Sam hardly exchange a word not directly related to the peril of week. As for the Jack and Daniel friendship, the heart of team and the show, I don't think I need to go in to the problems that the pushing of ship has created for that in the last season.

Opinions regarding TPTB's ability to juggle the various relationships on the show are as varied as its viewers; so here I'll dispense with mine. Besides, there is another thread entirely devoted to the discussion of the Jack/Daniel friendship (to which I have already added my 2c ). My original contention was simply that it was unnecessary (or illogical) for a character-drive show to preclude any human emotions, one of which happens to be romantic feelings.

Any one-on-one relationship, be it romantic or otherwise, is exclusive by its very nature. This does not, however, limit each party solely to this (type of) relationship. To use the example cited above, Daniel's friendship with Jack did not prevent Daniel from forming an emotional bond with Sam. Neither relationship was pushed at the expense of the other, yet it’s fair to say that the dynamic of the D/J relationship is distinctly different from that of D/S. Thus, such exclusive-ness begets the unique texture of each relationship, which in turn enriches the whole show.

Of course, one could argue that romance is not the same as friendship. To which I would counter that neither are all friendships. For example, Jack's relationship with Teal'c has a distinctively freres d'armes feel, while his connection with Daniel veers toward ideal. So, what if his friendship with Sam were to be laced with a certain measure of sexual desire? Their friendship would not cease to exist or threaten to supersede all others. After all, we are talking about two characters that have behaved responsibly for years, not a pair who are about to elope to the hills and make out like bunnies.

Oh, how I wish I could see it that way.

Ah, it's quite easy. See, being quite literal I don't jump "ship!" unless the characters say something overt to each other. The private musing of one character does nothing for me. Neither does the "I care about her more than I should" business.

[Liebestraume]

you are way better at this than i am.

Why, thank you! You got your point aross quite unequivocally as well.

[SallyK]

in D&C i didn't see sam and daniel as having any real need or opportunity to speak on a personal level. jack and daniel were just as close as ever.
i find that a tv show will not have a conversation between two characters just to show that they are still friends, if it doesn't benefit or further the plot of that particular episode or arc. teal'c didn't have much interaction with anyone in D&C either. it wasn't neccessary. a tv show only has 40ish minutes to get a whole story told. thats precious time.
in season 7, i think that they are just as close as they have ever been, and that is displayed when neccessary. however, a whole lot happened in terms of character development with sam and teal'c in particular in season 7.

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you, one of the horrors of working in retail is no weekends.

To start with I think I may have been a little unclear when I was talking about Daniel and Sam's friendship. I didn't mean in Divide and Conquer but was making a contrast between before and after. In the first 3 seasons they were close, then suddenly in Season 4 they stopped talking to each other. I agree it was much better in Season 7, one of the things I liked the most was that we did get friendship moments between Daniel, Sam and Teal'c. Then we got the real Sam rather than the pod person that appeared in pretty much all her scenes with Jack, particularly in the second half of the season.

"it excludes those outside the chosen pairing"
i don't see why it should. each one has a different relationship with each other one. just because jack and sam have one kind of relationship doesn't mean that it excludes daniel or teal'c from having a deep meaningful friendship with them. in my own group of friends, certain people have paired up with each other and nobody else feels excluded when we are all together.
when jack took teal'c to jello wrestling (possibly with daniel) i doubt if sam felt excluded, because that was their friendship time, which was unique to them.

"It pushes one relationship at the expense of the others."
why? it shows one relationship, while in another scene they might show a meaningful personal scene between two other characters. in grace they showed moments between all the team, individually.
in fallen they showed moments between every one
in evolution they showed moments between jack and daniel, in their little friendshippy guy like way.
in chimera their were some sam and daniel moments.
in heroes there were some sam and teal'c moments.
in lost city there were some very nice all team moments.
in birthright(?) there were some great jack and daniel moments.
i could go on, but most people probably stopped reading a long time ago.

if i'm misinterpreting your meaning here, please clarify. thanks. and if you survived to the end of this post, Congratulations! there should be a cake

I completely agree that people can have different types and levels of friendship without it interfering with others. But romance is different, since by its very nature it can only be between two people. To me, at least, any romance between 2 members of the team would exclude the others and therefore be a "Bad Thing". The problem has also been made worse by the way ship has been handled in this show. Every time the writers have decided they want to push Sam/Jack ship, they have also minimised their relationships with the others on the team - not only in the second half of Season 7 when it seems as if Jack never got to talk to anyone but Sam, but the beginning of Season 4 as well. Look at the scene in Lost City Part 1
Spoiler space
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at Jack's house. It was pretty clear that Sam saw the arrival of Daniel and Teal'c as an interruption, an intrusion. Why should she feel the need to exclude them, when their friend was dying, apart from the romantic feelings she was supposed to be having?

I am not saying that the ship eliminated all friendship scenes between all of the characters, just that Jack's scenes seemed to be pretty much all with Sam and that when he was around she didn't seem to care about anyone else - see the end of Evolution pt 2.

Now we should definitely have cake . Chocolate or coffee?

SallyK

[SallyK]

Of course, one could argue that romance is not the same as friendship. To which I would counter that neither are all friendships. For example, Jack's relationship with Teal'c has a distinctively freres d'armes feel, while his connection with Daniel veers toward ideal. So, what if his friendship with Sam were to be laced with a certain measure of sexual desire? Their friendship would not cease to exist or threaten to supersede all others. After all, we are talking about two characters that have behaved responsibly for years, not a pair who are about to elope to the hills and make out like bunnies.

Yes, you can have different kinds of friendship, and I would agree that Jack's friendships with his team are all different. But we are not just talking about a spark of sexual desire - romance is different, it is by its very nature about two people, shutting out the rest of the world. That is fine in most normal situations but in a millitary team it interferes with the way the team work together. Also, as I was arguing to Stargate Barbie, the way the writers have chosen to portray the ship has made it even more exclusive than it needs to be. By choosing to use most of RDA's time in scenes with Sam, they've made it clear that they think that Jack's friendships with the rest of the team should take a back seat to the romance they are pushing.

Maybe there was a way in which the writers could have indicated that Jack and Sam had romantic feelings for each other, without destroying Sam's character or affecting the rest of the team. Unfortunately, as far as I am concerned, they have completely failed to find it and have brought the team down around their ears in the process. My only hope is that since Sam seems to act more like her old self when Jack is not around, that RDA's reduced schedule will produce more "real" Sam.

I would be only too happy to forget the way she has been behaving, and look forward to lots of fanfic fixing the corner the writers have painted themselves into.

SallyK

[stargate barbie]

i do agree that TPTB tend to use jack more often in scenes with sam. my reasoning for that is that she is his second in command, and he's sort of grooming her for a command of her own one day, the fact that they have feelings for one another is only secondary to that. its nice (to me anyway )

i do think it would have made more people happy if they had made the shippy aspects slightly less overt. being a shipper, i quite liked the shippiness for the most part. but i probably would have been just as happy if it were more subtle.

Lost City Part 1
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at Jack's house. It was pretty clear that Sam saw the arrival of Daniel and Teal'c as an interruption, an intrusion. Why should she feel the need to exclude them, when their friend was dying, apart from the romantic feelings she was supposed to be having?

I am not saying that the ship eliminated all friendship scenes between all of the characters, just that Jack's scenes seemed to be pretty much all with Sam and that when he was around she didn't seem to care about anyone else - see the end of Evolution pt 2.

Now we should definitely have cake . Chocolate or coffee?

i saw this as, she was dissapointed that they had interupted at that moment. just when she was about to say something important. but she was still happy to see their friends there. and she was still upset that o'neill was quite possibly going to die, so she wasn't exactly going to appear happy about anything.

i don't think they should get together while still on the same team, as even just the potential for any disruption to the team dynamic due to romantic entanglement isn't worth the risk when so much is at stake. but if one or both were no longer in the field full time, and instead worked on base, the risk would not be as severe, so that would be better. HOWEVER! i don't think we should have this happen during the course of the show. because judging by chimera, we wouldn't be getting subtlety if this were to happen, and i'm not sure tptb can handle that kind of situation properly. not many shows can. there seems to be some kind of curse on sci fi shows in particular surrounding this kind of thing
personally i'd like them to go on a date (off screen) by the third last episode, and have a hint that they got together by the end at least. i would like a kiss. if there were to be a movie, i'd like the official, real world (ie, not AU, time loop or imaginary) kiss to be in that. but i understand that there are a small few out there who may not be receptive to this.

i hope this makes sense. and its only my crazy poorly expressed opinion anyway.

[Liebestraume]

But we are not just talking about a spark of sexual desire - romance is different, it is by its very nature about two people, shutting out the rest of the world. That is fine in most normal situations but in a millitary team it interferes with the way the team work together.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems your dissatisfaction with TPTB's ability to handle characters constitutes the core argument against 'ship. Although I don't share this opinion, I can sympathize with the sentiment; after all, romance on serial TV tends to be cringe-worthy . However, IMHO, something being rarely well-done doesn't mean it should not be done.

Even the most platonic relationship between two people shuts out the rest of the world, in the sense that it excludes anyone else from that particular relationship. Yes, they could include other people in friendship. But, by definition, this new friendship is distinctly different from the original one-on-one friendship.

So, romance between two people is no more exclusive, in concept, than any other type of one-on-one relationship. They shut out the rest of the world from one particular aspect of their relationship (and so they should ), but it doesn't necessarily mean they shut out anything else from the world (or vice versa).

And, if shutting out the rest of the world were a source of interference, then it would follow that any one-on-one relationship -- even the most platonic -- could disrupt team harmony. Whether or not romance has a place on this show would not have been the only issue to be contended with.

[SallyK]

i do agree that TPTB tend to use jack more often in scenes with sam. my reasoning for that is that she is his second in command, and he's sort of grooming her for a command of her own one day, the fact that they have feelings for one another is only secondary to that. its nice (to me anyway )

i do think it would have made more people happy if they had made the shippy aspects slightly less overt. being a shipper, i quite liked the shippiness for the most part. but i probably would have been just as happy if it were more subtle.

i saw this as, she was dissapointed that they had interupted at that moment. just when she was about to say something important. but she was still happy to see their friends there. and she was still upset that o'neill was quite possibly going to die, so she wasn't exactly going to appear happy about anything.

i don't think they should get together while still on the same team, as even just the potential for any disruption to the team dynamic due to romantic entanglement isn't worth the risk when so much is at stake. but if one or both were no longer in the field full time, and instead worked on base, the risk would not be as severe, so that would be better. HOWEVER! i don't think we should have this happen during the course of the show. because judging by chimera, we wouldn't be getting subtlety if this were to happen, and i'm not sure tptb can handle that kind of situation properly. not many shows can. there seems to be some kind of curse on sci fi shows in particular surrounding this kind of thing
personally i'd like them to go on a date (off screen) by the third last episode, and have a hint that they got together by the end at least. i would like a kiss. if there were to be a movie, i'd like the official, real world (ie, not AU, time loop or imaginary) kiss to be in that. but i understand that there are a small few out there who may not be receptive to this.

i hope this makes sense. and its only my crazy poorly expressed opinion anyway.

It certainly makes sense, and your opinion isn't in the least crazy, just misguided .

I still feel that it is wrong for Sam to ever see her friends as an interruption or as having less right to spend time with Jack than she does, and that is what comes over to me in that scene.

I agree that a lot more people would be happy if we hadn't been being hit over the head with ship in the last half of the season. So I fall back on the old anti-ship cry - why couldn't it be the way it was in the first 3 seasons when people saw ship if they wanted to? The problem is that in the show the writers have dug themselves a hole so deep now, that I really can't see a way for them to retrieve the characters' dignity.

If there hadn't previously been any overt ship, then I could have seen subtle indication that they were getting together at the end of the series as being less of a problem, people who like the relationship would have been happy, and everybody else would have known they would have broken up within weeks . Unfortunately as things are now, I can only see it as not only totally unconvincing (sorry, but there is no chemistry there at all) but also an insult to the characters (if either of them had romantic feelings they should not have remained on the same team).

I'm not really expecting to change your mind here, and I am happy that some people are getting something they enjoy out of the show. I just wish it had been possible to do that without destroying it for the rest of us.

SallyK

[SallyK]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems your dissatisfaction with TPTB's ability to handle characters constitutes the core argument against 'ship. Although I don't share this opinion, I can sympathize with the sentiment; after all, romance on serial TV tends to be cringe-worthy . However, IMHO, something being rarely well-done doesn't mean it should not be done.

Even the most platonic relationship between two people shuts out the rest of the world, in the sense that it excludes anyone else from that particular relationship. Yes, they could include other people in friendship. But, by definition, this new friendship is distinctly different from the original one-on-one friendship.

So, romance between two people is no more exclusive, in concept, than any other type of one-on-one relationship. They shut out the rest of the world from one particular aspect of their relationship (and so they should ), but it doesn't necessarily mean they shut out anything else from the world (or vice versa).

And, if shutting out the rest of the world were a source of interference, then it would follow that any one-on-one relationship -- even the most platonic -- could disrupt team harmony. Whether or not romance has a place on this show would not have been the only issue to be contended with.

It is true that one of my problems with Sam/Jack ship is the inability of the writers to handle it convincingly and without affecting the other relationships within the team. (Quite apart from the complete lack of chemistry and the fact that honourable Air Force Officers wouldn't have remained on the same team if they were harbouring romantic feelings for each other )

But I would still feel they same way (though probably to a lesser degree), if they had introduced feelings between Sam and Daniel (though that would be at least less unconvincing) or Sam and Teal'c. I still think there is a fundamental difference between friendship and romance, and that introducing a romantic element to any of the relationships on the team would exclude the others in a way that friendship doesn't, however well it was written.

People have friends and interact with them in different ways. But if romance isn't more than that, if it isn't something that changes the way you live your life, then it isn't really romance. An occasional spark between the characters, that people enjoyed if they are into that pairing, is not the same as the ship we have been hit over the head with this season. Suddenly Sam sees the rest of the team as an intrusion, she doesn't care about what happens to them (see Evolution Pt 2 and Heroes) and she wastes important time on missions agonising about her feelings, thereby putting her friends in danger. Some of that is the way the writers have handled the characters, but I would be fascinated if you could come up with a way to have the feelings without the problems.

SallyK

[Sicarius]

Ok, I haven't read all eight pages of this, so forgive me if I repeat something.

I actually like the episodes quite a bit where they have to deal with their little angsty love issues, but what do these guys have in common outside of their work? Heck, what do they have in common inside their work? I don't find them a terribly realistic match. IMHO, Carter needs to hook up with another brain, and Jack needs somebody with a comparable sense of humor.

[Liebestraume]

It is true that one of my problems with Sam/Jack ship is the inability of the writers to handle it convincingly and without affecting the other relationships within the team. (Quite apart from the complete lack of chemistry and the fact that honourable Air Force Officers wouldn't have remained on the same team if they were harbouring romantic feelings for each other )

But I would still feel they same way (though probably to a lesser degree), if they had introduced feelings between Sam and Daniel (though that would be at least less unconvincing) or Sam and Teal'c. I still think there is a fundamental difference between friendship and romance, and that introducing a romantic element to any of the relationships on the team would exclude the others in a way that friendship doesn't, however well it was written.

People have friends and interact with them in different ways. But if romance isn't more than that, if it isn't something that changes the way you live your life, then it isn't really romance. An occasional spark between the characters, that people enjoyed if they are into that pairing, is not the same as the ship we have been hit over the head with this season. Suddenly Sam sees the rest of the team as an intrusion, she doesn't care about what happens to them (see Evolution Pt 2 and Heroes) and she wastes important time on missions agonising about her feelings, thereby putting her friends in danger. Some of that is the way the writers have handled the characters, but I would be fascinated if you could come up with a way to have the feelings without the problems.

SallyK

Actually, I have seen romantic feelings (and acts) portrayed without causing "problems" -- very recently and on another SciFi show, no less. There was even character development to be had for each of the two main characters involved. So, it's rare but not impossible.

Apologies if I hadn't made it clear that I viewed this discussion as two-fold: (1) whether or not romance has a place on a show in general, and (2) how TPTB handled this show in particular. I'll leave out the part about RL military vs SG-1, for the same reason I don't dwell on the "selective science" when it comes to gate-travel, time-travel, meeting one's AU self, etc. Suffices it to say watching this show requires an unusual amount of suspension of disbelief. At least for me.

How well TPTB handled this show is mostly a matter of opinion. I leave it at that, for arguing either for or against opinions would have been quite futile and pointless. Some people say there should have been more and better treatment of Jack, others say Daniel, or Sam, or Teal’c, separately or in some combination thereof. Some say there is no chemis|r} beuweeî so-and-so, otheró sat ivgs as clear as thm$nose on one'w`face. Some tuned in for the characvev moments, some for thm SciVi stories, qnd some mven say ôhey love/hate 'ship on any show, period. I may not awrge with these opinions, but$they(are all respected nonetheless.

It is interesting, however, to see general statements to the effect this or that shouldn't be done because [here insert a plethora of reasons except one's own opinion]. In this instance, what is it that makes the notion of romance such an anathema, when every other type of relationship on the show is warmly embraced? Because romantic feeling is the only emotion that is different, intense, exclusive,`lifg-altering, ad infinitum? If so, how or why? There is no mistaken the beliefs being proffered, it is the objective reasoning that proves to be elusive.

[stargate barbie]

being a shipper myself, i feel that i can't give an unbiased arguement as to why they have at least some chemistry. i see tons of it between all the cast members. i think its part of what makes the show so good.

i also think that if they had chosen to play ship between sam and daniel, it would have been a spectacular failure. one of those sickly sweet couples that ya just wanna strangle for being so sick. that and while i did see some potential ship between them in about 2 or 3 episodes in the entire series, thats about it. to me thats more of a sibling/close friend type of relationship. plus the fact that they would have more chance of being allowed to be together because he's not military, would have ruined the show. part of what makes it work (in my opinion) for the sam and jack dynamic is that they can't be together and they know it.
as for why neither one has left the team due to their feelings, they both know that what they do is far more important than any individual. that and its just a tv show
they can behave responsibly and do not act on their feelings because of the importance of their jobs.

i know that most anti-shippers don't see chemistry between sam and jack, but thats just the opinion of the anti-shippers (i don't know what the non shippers think about it). pretty much all shippers see the chemistry between them, but thats just our opinion. its more a matter of perspective than a matter of fact.

once again. i don't think sam sees the rest of the team being there as being an intrusion. just unfortunate timing that they happened to show up just when she was about to say something very important to her. she was still happy to see them there for their friend, and she does not think they have less right to be there than she does. i'd love to know how you got that idea though?
as for not caring what happens to her friends? again, i'd like to know why you think this?
spoilers for evolution parts 1 & 2 and heroes
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she seemed quite concerned about daniel being missing in part 1, then when she know o'neill was going after him, she felt she had less reason to be concerned about him, but was still worried about BOTH of them anyway. she did check to see that daniel was ok when they got back, but only about as much as he checked to see that she was ok following her obviously dangerous mission. teal'c was equally concerned about him, maybe less so.
in heroes, the fact that she spent most of part two looking absolutely devastated, to me at least, for the loss of her friend, suggests to me that she may actually give a monkey's about what happens to her friends.
unless she was crying and hugging teal'c because she lost her car keys

sorry for the sarcasm, but i'm sarcastic.

just out of curiousity, are you in the military/air force?