General Ship ( Relationship) Discussion

[stargate barbie]

long running? lets go with 5+ years?

name one show in which the main characters had no sexual interest in each other at some time during the course of the show OR had no non platonic relationships, where the show really pulled in the viewers? i'm sure there are some, but not many and certainly not the majority. a romantic sub plot in ANY show, is generally used for the sake of realism or so that people can relate to the show and its characters. sci fi shows in particular have such plot lines.
there aren't many shows about characters who are celebate that are popular, father ted being the obvious exception.

i didn't mean my post to come across as a challenge, i was just expressing my personal opinions on what elements are usually incorporated to make a show interesting and entertaining. sci fi shows tend to deal with societies issues and taboos, in a mildly veiled way. sam and jacks relationship, can be related to by anyone who has experienced a relationship (be it romantic or not) with barriers and obstacles in the way. that and i think very early on TPTB recognised the chemistry between AT and RDA for such a subtle relationship between characters more so than between the others.

i don't think the show would be nearly as good if all the characters didn't have the different relationships with each other that they do have. every relationship is different, and none of them should be the main focus of the show. and none of them are. it is an Ensemble cast. each member of SG-1 is a leading character. i don't consider any of them to serve a supporting or secondary role to any other character. each one of them could carry an episode. but thats just my opinion and i get the impression that a lot of people may disagree with me. i've seen one or two people express their desire for it to be the sam and jack show, and several more people with the impression that it either is or should be the jack and daniel show. poor teal'c and hammond dont seem to get a look in

[Shipperahoy]

The original Law & Order has been on the air for 13 years and there is no romance at all on that show. It's clever, well written, and superbly acted. I enjoy it very much.

It's true that most shows tend to have some sort of romance factor on it but it's refreshing to see when people go off the beaten path. I am a shipper but not as much as some. I think that Sam and Jack have wonderful chemistry and I like the thought of them together. I don't need whole episode devoted to "will they or won't they" but I do want them to end up together in the end even if it ends up just being a fishing trip.

Someone (I think it may have been Shadow) asked earlier in the thread if people though that ship had been detrimental to the show. For me I don't think it's the ship per se that has been detrimental to the show but the way it's been handled. I really think that it's possible for the writers to to write more than one story angle at a time but they didn't do it in season 7. Daniel and Teal'c got sort of left in the rear in the latter half of the season and the Stargate might as well have been put in storage. The optimist in me (it's in there somewhere I'm sure of it) is still holding out hope that they will do better next season.

[ShadowMaat]

The optimist in me (it's in there somewhere I'm sure of it) is still holding out hope that they will do better next season.

Am I allowed to laugh at your futile attempts at optimism?

[Shipperahoy]

Am I allowed to laugh at your futile attempts at optimism?

You can try. I'm omni...omnipit..aaargh. I'm all-knowing didn't you know?
(Wonders if that gives away my lurking tendencies in certain threads)

[Dani347]

a romantic sub plot in ANY show, is generally used for the sake of realism or so that people can relate to the show and its characters.

And, I've found that some shows, when they decide they need to toss in a romance, it's out of desparation. I don't need romance to relate to characters. Forgive me for bringing up the olden days, but for three seasons the only ship was in the eye of the beholder, and I didn't have any trouble relating to the characters or the show. And, I don't believe that I would have lost interest if they hadn't introduced ship. And, why does Sam's relationship with Jack have to be romantic? She already had a different relationship with him. He's her CO! And, it's not a 9 to 5 job, where you just forget about the boss after the work is done. Their relationship as CO and 2IC is a strong one. They don't need a romantic relationship to be interesting.

Shows can be interesting, relatable, and non sterile without putting two of the main characters together. And, if a show is introducing this element just to make the characters interesting, then I say there's something wrong with the characters themselves. There should be more interesting about characters than whether they're going to get together. If tptb hadn't specifically decided to play up ship now, wouldn't Jack and Sam still be interesting in their own right? In seasons 4 and 5, I could still watch and not see ship. One episode wasn't enough to make me feel they were pushing ship (I don't count WoO as shippy) and the show was still interesting. Jack and Sam were still interesting. Sha're was dead, Daniel was interesting. Teal'c was interesting without a long term love interest.

Now, are we talking shows where the characters never had a romantic relationship or just ones where there was no relationship put in somewhere near the end in order to make it interesting? If it's the latter, have there been any romantic relationships between the characters on Law and Order SVU? And, someone already mentioned original Law and Order. Only one romantic relationship, and it's still very popular without having any now. Does Macgyver count? What about Quantum Leap? You knew that Beth existed for Al, but except for one episode in the middle and the last one, it wasn't an ungoing story, because that's not what the show was about. (I think it should just be shows where the characters didn't have a romantic relationship with each other, because there haven't been a lot of objections to any of the SG1 team members having a romance in an episode or two with a guest star. The main objection has been with it being between two main cast members)

And, even if other shows have followed the formula, doesn't mean every show has to, in order to be interesting. Before Will and Grace, they thought they couldn't have a mainstream show with gay people in the main cast. A main cast member who not only plays someone with Down Syndrome, but who had a cast member who actually had Down Syndrome? Never happened! Couldn't be done! No one would watch. Until Life Goes On. Not to mention they introduced a character with HIV and didn't just put him on for the Very Special Episode, but added him to the main cast. And, yeah, there was romance, but the point is, they broke other formulas. A show about nothing? Don't be ridiculous! Hey, how about Seinfeld! The main character of the show has to be a good guy. Until The Sopranos and The Shield.

My point with all those is, even if the shows I listed don't count for some reason or another, every rule or formula has people saying that it can't be done or it has to be done this way in order to work. Until someone says, quite rightly, bull! (Is that too much for a pg forum?) We're not going to be confined because everyone else did it this way. So, there's no saying a show has to have a romance between the main characters to be interesting. Some do have them (and lets hope it's not for the sake of just being interesting) but some can do without it. I thought Stargate was one of those shows.

This one doesn't count as long running, because it sadly got canceled after two seasons, but I remember the made a point of the two main characters in Reasonable Doubts not becoming involved romantically. They were close, and decided that their friendship was too important to change to something else. I always liked that. (Oh, and that had a deaf woman as one of the stars!)

and several more people with the impression that it either is or should be the jack and daniel show.

Oh, brother! I'm not even going to touch this until I calm down. Because it won't be pretty if I refute it now.

[ShadowMaat]

OK, here's a question. People keep saying that romantic relationships should be in shows, or that it has to be in order to maintain "realism". So who says that the ship on the show has to be between the main characters?

Why isn't Sam's relationship with Pete considered valid? Disregarding the way he's been written and what people might think of his personality, why is it "wrong" for Sam to be involved with someone who isn't Jack? Or Daniel or Teal'c or whatever?

I've heard people say that they're more "emotionally invested" in the main characters and that that is why the ship should be between, for example, Jack and Sam as opposed to one (or both) of them being involved with someone "outside" the general focus of the show. I guess that for reasons like that, I'll have to chalk it up as a difference of opinion.

For me, I value good storytelling above everything else. Yes, I like well-developed characters and I get annoyed if they're flat and uninteresting, but I don't think that the character development should take time away from the plots... it should be part of the plots. Particularly in a show like Stargate, there's a lot of opportunity for personal growth- these guys go through hell on an almost weekly basis, it'd be impossible for them not to grow and to change, but I don't see why that growth and change should have to focus on two of them falling in love with each other.

I love Sam. I love Jack. I want to see both of them happy... just not with each other. I don't see Sam's relationship with Pete as being lessening in any way. It gives me a greater insight into her character and it makes me happy to see her happy. I don't like Pete- or his relationship with Sam- any less just because he isn't around as much. I mean, you could as easily say that Rya'c isn't all that interesting and that you don't care what happens to him because we don't see him very much. Pete has only been in one episode. How can you decide whether or not he's a worthy character or interesting or "good enough" for Sam based on one ep? Jonas is another example. People were ready to crucify him after Meridian, but despite a shakey introduction I think he went on to become a pretty good character. Maybe not as fully realized as he could have been, but certainly not the monster that some people made him out to be in Meridian. I think the same holds true for Pete. At least I hope it does.

My question is... why are relationships with secondary or tertiary characters moot or even void? Just because they aren't in every scene of every ep doesn't make them any less valid as characters and it doesn't mean that his or her relationship with one of the main characters is any less fulfilling- for those characters.

And... this is a more general question: do you really WANT to see every exchanged look, every inane conversation, every smoochy cuddly moment? Isn't it enough to know that it's happening... or might be happening? I know at least some of you want to see "validation" in the relationship between Jack and Sam, but where do you draw the line? When is enough enough and at what point- if ever- does it become TOO much?

I was quite happy when S/J ship was subtly written. I saw occasional moments but I ignored them because Sam/Jack doesn't "work" for me. I simply feel that the writers have gone too far and they've pushed the relationship over the edge. There's no turning back now, and that saddens me. I was happy that the shippers were (more or less) happy with what they had, but now... I'm upset by what's been happening, by what I see as a relationship being "forced" into existence when before it simply was... or wasn't, depending on personal tastes. And the general consensus (very general) seems to be, "Well, that's too bad for you, but yay! We have ship!" I don't want to take away from anyone's enjoyment of the show, and I know a lot of people avidly love the S/J ship on Stargate, but what about those of us who don't like ship? In the past, ship has always been ambiguous enough (to me, at least) for people to either see it or NOT see it, regardless of whether or not it was "really" on the show. Except that now, the option of NOT seeing it has been taken away from us. Granted, I've heard of one or two people who say they still don't see ship, but I, for one, can't help but see it. I want to know why I and the other noromos should be forced to see things this way? Are our opinions less valid than those of the shippers? Are we "wrong" to not see ship? Why is it OK for us to suffer simply because YOU (general you) want to see something? Shippers will ALWAYS see ship, regardless of the way things are written. You may not get the "validation" you want, but would it have been possible for the show to continue in a way that let YOU be happy but also allowed us noromos to be happy, too? Or do Jack and Sam need to fully and completely declare their feelings for each other in an ep (or in multiple eps) in order for you to truly enjoy the show?

I'll probably think up more stuff when I can remember what I was trying to talk about. I think that's enough for now, anyway.

[Shipperahoy]

I think that for many people they get more emotionally invested in romance between main characters. You feel as if you know them and you've seen them grow and change over the years. I don't think it's "necessary" to have romance in t.v. shows with anyone much less main characters in order for it to be good but I can see people's reasoning as to why it's feels so much more "real" with main characters.

[ShadowMaat]

I think that for many people they get more emotionally invested in romance between main characters.

So what about Sha're? She wasn't a main character. Heck, she was abducted and "changed" in the first ep. But did anyone ever for one minute doubt that Daniel loved her? Or that she loved him? Despite us not getting much of the "real" Sha're, was her death not upsetting? If not for you (general you), then for Daniel? Could you not empathize with his loss?

[Shipperahoy]

Why is it OK for us to suffer simply because YOU (general you) want to see something? Shippers will ALWAYS see ship, regardless of the way things are written. You may not get the "validation" you want, but would it have been possible for the show to continue in a way that let YOU be happy but also allowed us noromos to be happy, too? Or do Jack and Sam need to fully and completely declare their feelings for each other in an ep (or in multiple eps) in order for you to truly enjoy the show?

I don't think it's o.k. for anyone to suffer but I think no matter what TPTB do someone will suffer. I don't think that it will ever happen that there will be a show written that every single person who watches it will jump for joy. I've said that I'm willing for there to be much less overt ship if it will be less vomit inducing for the anti-shippers and noromos, in fact I like the subtle ship much better. But there are people who will be happy with nothing less than 100% no ship and there are people who won't be happy with anything less than Sam and Jack doing the mattress mambo and then getting married on the ramp in the gateroom. The way things have been going lately have definately been in the shippers favor and I feel bad that it's to a point where some people can't enjoy the show anymore but I don't think that the shippers who are enjoying the level of ship that's been present lately should feel guilty about enjoying it either. My hope is that with Sam being with Pete and Jack promoted to General that the ship will be put on the backburner for a while and other aspects of Stargate that have been getting neglected will be given their due attention.

As for the Sha're thing, I thought it was extremely sad that she died. I wish she hadn't and I don't doubt for a second that Daniel loved her. But with her, the character was in the movie so we got to know her pretty well then and we got to see how they met and fell in love. I think I would have been even more depressed over her death if she had been a regular cast member and we had seen them interacting even more. As I said though I don't think it's necessary for there to be romance between main characters, supporting characters, their pets, or inanimate objects for a show to be good. But I did see chemistry between Sam and Jack and enjoyed the subtle UST. That's just me and I certainly don't think that everyone "should" see it or that they're blind or something is wrong with them if they don't. Nor do I think that other people's opinions are any less valid than mine.

I know that your post wasn't directed towards me and that you weren't insinuating that I'm a tyrannical dictator type or anything (although I'm sure you think it in your heart of hearts ) I just thought I would take a shot at answering from my own point of view since someone posted that they felt there wasn't any real discussion going on here. Our views on ship are pretty much as opposite as can be yet we manage to have discussions from time to time.

BTW Only one more day until the Gilmore Girls season finale. YAY!!!!! Ship, ship, ship.

[ShadowMaat]

As for the Sha're thing, I thought it was extremely sad that she died. I wish she hadn't and I don't doubt for a second that Daniel loved her. But with her, the character was in the movie so we got to know her pretty well then and we got to see how they met and fell in love.

I'd be curious to get opinions from people who haven't seen the movie, or who hadn't seen it when SG-1 started and see what THEIR reactions are to Sha're. Also, as you point out, we got to know Sha're. We haven't been given that chance yet with Pete.

I know that your post wasn't directed towards me and that you weren't insinuating that I'm a tyrannical dictator type or anything (although I'm sure you think it in your heart of hearts )

Moi?? *bats eyelashes* Why, I could NEVER think such a terrible thing! Perish the thought!

Glad to know some real convos CAN happen here, though, and that some people can listen and think at least SOMEWHAT objectively. Sorta. Kinda. Maybe...

BTW Only one more day until the Gilmore Girls season finale. YAY!!!!! Ship, ship, ship.

YAY!! Now that is a ship I am fully behind. Although I hope they handle it right. Stargate is making me all paranoid in regards to ship, and the Luke/Lorelai thing is a VERY delicate balance. I figure something's gonna happen between them in the finale and they'll spend next season being in denial.

[Dani347]

But with her, the character was in the movie so we got to know her pretty well then and we got to see how they met and fell in love.

Speaking for myself, I didn't see the movie until very recently. And, I was still invested, and felt bad when she died, because I could see throughout the series that Daniel cared about her. I liked watching Sam with Pete.

and there are people who won't be happy with anything less than Sam and Jack doing the mattress mambo and then getting married on the ramp in the gateroom.

I wonder if these people have felt like that from the start or is it because now tptb have started insinuating that more could happen. Were some shippers disatisfied with the subtle ship from before, or did they just enjoy seeing it the way those who didn't see it enjoyed not seeing it? Were large factions of J/S shippers unhappy from the start?

Luke/Lorelai thing is a VERY delicate balance.

I'm not a Luke/Lorelai shipper (thank you for spelling her name right, btw!). I can take it or leave it. But, I've never liked feeling that all of her relationships were just obstacles for this, since I've liked everyone she's had a significant relationship with. I loved Christopher (but there were other complications, of course) I liked Max. I even liked Jason.

[Shipperahoy]

I wonder if these people have felt like that from the start or is it because now tptb have started insinuating that more could happen. Were some shippers disatisfied with the subtle ship from before, or did they just enjoy seeing it the way those who didn't see it enjoyed not seeing it? Were large factions of J/S shippers unhappy from the start?

From what I've picked up on the Shipper thread many people were content with the subtle UST and the thought that there might be a kiss or a fishing trip at the end of the series. Seeing Sam with Pete and the length of the bedroom scene really threw some people over the edge and many of them now would not be happy with anything less than that for Sam and Jack. Personally I think that TPTB really screwed the pooch with the sex scene. Putting my Sam/Jack shipper status to the side I really see no need for those sort of scenes in Stargate and it really stirred up the ship vs. anti-ship. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

[majorsal]

From what I've picked up on the Shipper thread many people were content with the subtle UST and the thought that there might be a kiss or a fishing trip at the end of the series. Seeing Sam with Pete and the length of the bedroom scene really threw some people over the edge and many of them now would not be happy with anything less than that for Sam and Jack. Personally I think that TPTB really screwed the pooch with the sex scene. Putting my Sam/Jack shipper status to the side I really see no need for those sort of scenes in Stargate and it really stirred up the ship vs. anti-ship. But as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Speaking for myself -another S/J shipper- it wasn't only the bedroom scene. It was ALL the romance scenes between Sam and PS that has upped the wanting-scale for me. In fact, the bedroom scene was the least of my hurts. You're right, shipperahoy, I think the writers have really screwed the pooch on this one.

Sally

[bcmilco]

People keep saying that romantic relationships should be in shows, or that it has to be in order to maintain "realism". So who says that the ship on the show has to be between the main characters?

I don't think it has to be in a show, but in general I think it adds an extra layer of reality to the show, and I like that.

Why isn't Sam's relationship with Pete considered valid? Disregarding the way he's been written and what people might think of his personality, why is it "wrong" for Sam to be involved with someone who isn't Jack? Or Daniel or Teal'c or whatever?

It's perfectly valid, however as I stated before I doubt I'd be as emotionally invested in the characters or their relationships and therefore not as invested in the show. So for me a relationship between main characters is an added reason, above and beyond the great explorations, to come back week after week and watch the show.

I've heard people say that they're more "emotionally invested" in the main characters and that that is why the ship should be between, for example, Jack and Sam

My being emotionally invested in the characters and therefore the relationship is why I prefer ship between main characters. (I just wanted to make that clarification for myself )

I guess that for reasons like that, I'll have to chalk it up as a difference of opinion.

I don't think you have to. I think you are emotionally invested in the characters, if you weren't I doubt you'd react as strongly as you do to their "destruction" as you see it. Or am I wrong?

I think where we differ is the emphasis and importance we place on the differnet types of interpersonal relationships.
Yes, no?

How can you decide whether or not [Pete]'s a worthy character or interesting or "good enough" for Sam based on one ep?

What's the old cleche? 'First impression are the most important', or something like that.

They say that it takes something like 11 meetings with a person to get your first impression of them out of your mind. (That from an understanding conflicts class, and I'm pretty sure that number is right )

If the person/character doesn't come off well the first time you've biased the audience aginst that person for a while.

Pete came off of Chimera looking bad to me, and despite any benifit of the doubt I may give him on his next apearance my judgement is going to be biased by the fact that I didn't like what I saw the first time.

And I'll venture that if Pete were to do something bad the next time we saw him you'll be more likely to forgive him because you saw him as a nice and sweet guy.

Initial judgement calls bias everyone, and without conclusive evidence one way or the other we don't know.

why are relationships with secondary or tertiary characters moot or even void? Just because they aren't in every scene of every ep doesn't make them any less valid as characters and it doesn't mean that his or her relationship with one of the main characters is any less fulfilling- for those characters.

You're right, it doesn't make them void, but for me it makes them more 2 dimentional, harder to relate to, harder to connect with and harder to deal with or understand. And ultimately, less fulfilling for me to watch.

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy a main/non-main combo, it just means I don't find them as satisfying to watch.

do you really WANT to see every exchanged look, every inane conversation, every smoochy cuddly moment? Isn't it enough to know that it's happening... or might be happening?

No I don't need to see every detail nor do I want to see most of the details.
I don't need/want bedroom scenes, in fact I found the one in Chimera to be completely out of place on Stargate.

I know at least some of you want to see "validation" in the relationship between Jack and Sam, but where do you draw the line? When is enough enough and at what point- if ever- does it become TOO much?

I'm hugely into communication, I think it's extremely important, and the lack of communication in the S/J relationship is an annoyance to me. IMO a verbal validation of their feelings would be awsome.

Besides that, as long as the show is still focused on SG-1, the Stargate, the SGC, the NID, and Aliens, I'm happy with whatever extra ship they send my way.

I want to know why I and the other noromos should be forced to see things this way? Are our opinions less valid than those of the shippers? Are we "wrong" to not see ship? Why is it OK for us to suffer simply because YOU (general you) want to see something?

Stargate SG-1 is the creative vision of TPTB and for better or worse what we get is their vision. Not mine, not yours and not John Doe's.

We don't have to agree with their vision and we don't even have to like it, but as long as their in control we're going to get their vision. It sucks sometimes, I know, but that's the reality of it.

Shippers will ALWAYS see ship, regardless of the way things are written.

Actually that's not true, for me, s5 had only 2 or 3 scenes of ship, the way things were written it had been nearly eliminated. So I won't ALWAYS see it. The directs have to choose to block scenes so that the chemistry can come through, just like for Jack and Daniel, if it's not blocked you wont see it.

You may not get the "validation" you want, but would it have been possible for the show to continue in a way that let YOU be happy but also allowed us noromos to be happy, too? Or do Jack and Sam need to fully and completely declare their feelings for each other in an ep (or in multiple eps) in order for you to truly enjoy the show?

I don't think you're trying to lay the blame at the feet of shippers, but I sort of get that vibe from the last couple of paragraph. I just thought you should be aware of that.

I'm sorry that ship causes you so much distress, but there is nothing I can do except empathise.

[Madeleine]

I don't agree with the connotation of this phrase {eager to please}, I've always seen her as eager to do her job and do it well and right, but not usually to "please"

I wasn't talking about her attitude to her job, just to the colonel and the general. I agree that she does her job well for its own sake and out of personal pride and professionalism, not for pats on the head. She'd do a good job regardless of who her CO was, but I do think she takes a little extra pleasure in doing a good job when it meets with the warm approval of a senior officer held by her in high regard.

Darn, I was trying to keep it short

In *this* thread? Are you a bit loopy or something