Stargate College Class! Help!!!

[NotANumber]

I think that if you're planning on going back into the generations, two shows worth looking into are The Avengers and The Prisoner, both British programs from the 1960s. There was a woman in The Avengers, Emma Peel, who was something of a sex figure but also a very strong woman.

The Prisoner, one of my favourite shows, deals with women from a number of different aspects. If you've never seen it, then for the sake of you sanity just stay away! If you have seen it, then there's a very interesting relationship between the title character and the various women who appear in different episodes. There's always a kind of hostility to weaker women and a respect for the stronger women. I'll see if I can find anything online that delves into it more than I could.

[Nutty_One111]

But back on-topic:

I don't think that Americans necessarily have a problem with sexuality being displayed on SG-1 and SGA, but how it's protrayed. With Vala (who, btw, I still like a lot), most people don't see beyond the veneer of her sexuality. I don't quite get this argument, but from my understanding, they see Vala as a woman who sets back the women's liberation a couple of decades. She's all about sex, and using her femininty to get what she wants is an old trick that, for a long time, actually kept women in their place as simply sexual objects. "A women's place is in the bedroom, or in the kitchen." Vala's got half of that down, anyway. A lot of people think a modern-day woman should try to dispel that notion, instead of perpetuating it. Plus, they also see her as completely one-dimensional. She's obsessed with sex, and while its okay to be in touch with that side, it's shouldn't be all she's about. (Any anti-Vala fans out there, did I get that right? Help!)

I don't think Vala is the anti-feminist at all and i really like her character...Her character to me comes across as feminist - as far as i remember the feminist view can be very pro-sexuality in that they believe both men and women equally should be allowed to express their sexuality without the social repercussions of being labelled by society..Vala comes across as a person who believes in sexual freedom and she expresses it freely without worrying about what society, will call her. She ignores the label. So in this respect i think Vala is quite feminist...(if im mistaken on any of the feminist views feel free to correct me its been a while since i studied sociology).

[Whistler84]

I don't think Vala is the anti-feminist at all and i really like her character...Her character to me comes across as feminist - as far as i remember the feminist view can be very pro-sexuality in that they believe both men and women equally should be allowed to express their sexuality without the social repercussions of being labelled by society..Vala comes across as a person who believes in sexual freedom and she expresses it freely without worrying about what society, will call her. She ignores the label. So in this respect i think Vala is quite feminist...(if im mistaken on any of the feminist views feel free to correct me its been a while since i studied sociology).

Yeah. That's where I come down on the whole Vala issue. Well stated! I find her uninhibited view of sex and her role as women to be refreshing. It's not, in my opinion, anti-feminist at all. Of course, there are a lot of variations to the definition of feminism.

Anybody care to disagree? Wow me with your insights, please!!

[Whistler84]

The US is obviously is a very large and diverse country, but with the prevalence of the religious right there, as represented by President Bush, there may be good reason for the prude image. But it's not like those kinds of people exist only in the United States - there was a letter in a local newspaper here recently complaining about how a bus poster for The 40-Year-Old Virgin was tearing apart the moral fabric of our society. The poster read, "He needs to get off his bike and start riding." Personally I found it funny. (The poster and the letter, that is.)

You're right. The right-wing conservative side of this country can seem . . . prudish at times (note: I can think of a lot more names, but this is a PG forum, so . . . yeah.). I will not get into the my less-then-pleasing-assessment of the Bush Administration (I can rant like no ones business about him), but every body here has to realize that not *all* Americans agree with him or his values. I'll stop this before becoming too heated in my arguement, because that discussion really has no place in stargate forum (or, at least, I don't think so), but I just wanted to say this very serious thought before I stop . . .

I LOVED THE 40-YEAR-OLD-VIRGIN!!!

Hehe.

[Whistler84]

I think that if you're planning on going back into the generations, two shows worth looking into are The Avengers and The Prisoner, both British programs from the 1960s. There was a woman in The Avengers, Emma Peel, who was something of a sex figure but also a very strong woman.

The Prisoner, one of my favourite shows, deals with women from a number of different aspects. If you've never seen it, then for the sake of you sanity just stay away! If you have seen it, then there's a very interesting relationship between the title character and the various women who appear in different episodes. There's always a kind of hostility to weaker women and a respect for the stronger women. I'll see if I can find anything online that delves into it more than I could.

I hadn't thought of the Avenger, but you're right. Good example.

And, um, I have not seen the Prisoner, so I'll just "stay away." Yeah.

[Whistler84]

I have no problem with the ship itself in theory, but how it was handled (botched?) by TPTB really turned me off. I've brought up Grace in a few other threads, but my main problem with it is that you have an otherwise strong intelligent woman who considers giving up her position as one of the world's foremost astrophysicists (and as a galaxy-saving heroine) just so she can be with her man.

I can see where you're going with this. And actually a lot of people are beginning to show concern about Weir for the same reasons. They say she's becoming too weak in regards to Sheppard. And, despite being an avid Shipper for them, I can totally see their side of the story. In both Weir and Sam's position, they have a duty that is greater than themselves. They have the duty to remain focused and unbiased and strong. Otherwise, the worlds as they know it could be destroyed. A lot of pressure.

But should they become emotionless in order to deal with it?

And specifically relating to 'Grace,' I believe the thing you're referring to was simply one-line. A hypothetical what-if? " What if I quit the Air Force? Would that change anything or is it just an excuse?" To me, it seemed like she was mostly pondering that line of action, but not seriously considering to act on it. The notion is thrown to the wayside in the very next second, right?

[NotANumber]

And specifically relating to 'Grace,' I believe the thing you're referring to was simply one-line. A hypothetical what-if? " What if I quit the Air Force? Would that change anything or is it just an excuse?" To me, it seemed like she was mostly pondering that line of action, but not seriously considering to act on it. The notion is thrown to the wayside in the very next second, right?

Seeing as it was never developed upon, the scene is up to how each viewer interpreted it. It just seemed to me personally that Sam so strongly wanted to be with Jack (note the passionate kissing scene), and knew that they could only be together if one of them left the military, so the idea of her giving everything up for him became something of a legitimate route for her to consider. Obviously there was no intention on the part of TPTB to have Sam quit her position, but it did show what she would be willing to do in order to be able to be with Jack.

[Beatrice Otter]

Amanda gave them pointers? I find that amusing.

Yep, she did--istr seeing a couple of interviews (sorry, don't remember where) where she said that basically what happened was she went in to the writers after the pilot was filmed and told them, "look, don't try to write 'a woman.' Just write an interesting character. I will bring the femininity to it. I don't need your help to do that. Don't treat her any differently than you would any other character."

[Beatrice Otter]

<<my snips>>

This is an ambitious project, Whistler84; kudos for even conceiving it! Sounds like fun for the instructor and students.

You seem to have a good start with the comments already posted. I'm ok with a bias toward at least one female in the SG universe, your favorite being Weir. (My own is Carter but still luv your gal.) Guess my point is you have to have a starting point for good and not so good examples; I know your students are going to ask you anyway!

Somewhere in discussions you'll probably run into the commercial-money aspect of the female presence in these films-shows and the way women get depicted for this value. Battlestar Galactica's Starbuck has an austere aspect while that Sylon babe is lethal femininity. Stargate SG1's Carter is scientist and soldier and focussed while Vala is like the Sylon babe but with more conscience. Stargate Atlantis' Weir maintains a dignified no-nonsense presence while Teyla appears to be in motion and watchful at all times. Would these shows be what they are if these women were 1)all the same or 2)never there? Does a scifi showfilm have to have a babe? Um, dang if I know; just thinking out loud .

I would love to know the percentage of men and women taking your class.

An intriguing idea. Nice to have the brainmatter prodded even when the thought's incomplete!

Just sayin'.

Does anyone remember that old filk about the covers of SF books? I heard it once at a con, can't remember the words or how it goes. It's about how what's in the book isn't reflected on the cover. One of the stanzas was about bimbos put on the cover as eye-candy to attract young, male readers. That verse started out:

There's a bimbo on the cover of the book!""

[Nutty_One111]

Seeing as it was never developed upon, the scene is up to how each viewer interpreted it. It just seemed to me personally that Sam so strongly wanted to be with Jack (note the passionate kissing scene), and knew that they could only be together if one of them left the military, so the idea of her giving everything up for him became something of a legitimate route for her to consider. Obviously there was no intention on the part of TPTB to have Sam quit her position, but it did show what she would be willing to do in order to be able to be with Jack.

I always thought that particular scene was a show of Sam's insecurities rather than how much she was willing to give up in order to be with Jack...the fact that she asks "or is that just an excuse?" to me seems like she was unsure of his feelings and whether their relationship would change if she gave up the Air Force..As if she felt that the military regulations were just an 'excuse'...

Or as the scene was set in Sam's subconscious or conscious(sp?) mind it also came across as if she was playing devils advovate with herself....Jack playing one side of the argument (e.g. friends, always be there..go find happiness ect..) and herself playing the other...(wanting a relationship). I agree that she was considering acting on it.....However its clear that Jack's side of the argument won as soon after she began a relationship with Pete.

Edit: had to correct a mistake

[NotANumber]

Yep, she did--istr seeing a couple of interviews (sorry, don't remember where) where she said that basically what happened was she went in to the writers after the pilot was filmed and told them, "look, don't try to write 'a woman.' Just write an interesting character. I will bring the femininity to it. I don't need your help to do that. Don't treat her any differently than you would any other character."

That's interesting, because if you think about it the original sci-fi heroine, Ellen Ripley, was originally written as a man and when the character became female they decided not to make any changes to her. So do women have to be written like men to appear strong? Probably not, but perhaps it's a good way for writers to avoid falling into gender stereotypes if they write a particular character and add attributes like sex later.

[Beatrice Otter]

I think the male demographic, and the fact everyone knows that is important to the networks, often is where the problem stems from when people see 'hot chick' characters and they don't like it because it's presumed it's only for that demographics superficial benefit. I don't know, but I must be one of the few people who didn't have a problem with Anise/Freya. I actually liked what little we saw of her character, and the fact we saw alot of her midriff wasn't an issue, but then I have no problem with Vala either...

Oh, I have no problem with Vala. Her character is sexy for a reason--because she uses it as a weapon. For her, it fits. I have no problem with that. Anise bugged me b/c it didn't fit. Did you ever see another Tok'ra dressed anything like that, ever? Did she have any reason for that besides the Seven of Nine factor? The answer to both questions is no. And that's what bugged me.

Yes, Six is a wonderful villian, though funnily enough most people (and guys) I know find her annoying - they seem to regard her as the character who appears only to antagonise and sex Gaius, maybe that's why they don't like her much, I'm not sure, just that they often look like they want to groan when she comes on.

I think Six is more complex than that. Like Vala, she uses sex as a weapon; unlike Vala, it is purely just a weapon for her. She has depths to her that show up, just glimmers of them, when she's talking with Baltar. We know she's got a hidden agenda; what we don't know is what that agenda is.

I'm not a huge SG-1 buff so I can't help too much on Friaser, but at the very least it's interesting how much support there was for her recurring character - I mean people really cared when she died, and TPTB knew she was much loved and that was why she was killed off. In a way it was almost an honour for her character, because people identified with her so well. She got a long run for a recurring character, and was up there with Hammond as one of the people who you'd knew would be there to help SG-1 - and then suddenly she's not and people felt the difference.

Janet might be the stereotypical "healer role" that women often get shoved into (Next Gen, the two regular women were a doctor and a counselor, forex.), but she was so popular because she rose above that. Her integrity was absolute, she could be tough as nails and compasionate, she did not take any crap at all, and she was very good at her job. Good eps to showcase her would be "Lifeboat" and "Threshhold," I think. Oh, and "Legacy." If you want a good scene that shows what her male patients think of her, the classic one is in "Crystal Skull." Jack's in bed in the infirmary, T is standing next to him. Daniel is missing. Jack starts to get out of bed to go look for him, and T says that Frasier said that wouldn't be a good idea. Jack blows him off, sits up, slides off the bed ... and doesn't stop sliding till he hits the floor. T reaches down, hefts him back onto the bed. "Doctor Fraiser is usually correct," he intones.

[Beatrice Otter]

As for Buffy, like someone else said before me that show isn´t sci-fi and really shouldn´t be lumped together with things like stargate unless your covering scifi/fantasy.

Clarke's Law. Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic; any magic, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from technology. Fantasy and Science Fiction are two sides of the same coin; the line between them can be very hard to define, indeed. I would not even try, in this case. What is the difference between Willow's spells and Oma Desala's control of the weather? (Besides the fact that Willow's early spells normally went wonky.) What's the difference between the Hellmouth and the Quantum Mirror?

[Purpleyin]

Oh, I have no problem with Vala. Her character is sexy for a reason--because she uses it as a weapon. For her, it fits. I have no problem with that. Anise bugged me b/c it didn't fit. Did you ever see another Tok'ra dressed anything like that, ever? Did she have any reason for that besides the Seven of Nine factor? The answer to both questions is no. And that's what bugged me.

It never bothered me as I couldn't recall we ever saw any female Tok'ra of her age, plus she's Tok'ra but her host could be from anywhere and who knows what she's used to wearing... It just didn't bother me at all.

I think Six is more complex than that. Like Vala, she uses sex as a weapon; unlike Vala, it is purely just a weapon for her. She has depths to her that show up, just glimmers of them, when she's talking with Baltar. We know she's got a hidden agenda; what we don't know is what that agenda is.

I know, it's just my male housemates seem to not see past the sex thing and get bored with her character. Which is a shame, and yet also interesting. They don't see past the label they're applying, even though there is more there - they only see her around Gaius and apply logic that she's just there for manipulating him. I find her interesting, especially what her agenda is, but I get the feeling they don't so much. :shrug:

Janet might be the stereotypical "healer role" that women often get shoved into (Next Gen, the two regular women were a doctor and a counselor, forex.), but she was so popular because she rose above that. Her integrity was absolute, she could be tough as nails and compasionate, she did not take any crap at all, and she was very good at her job. Good eps to showcase her would be "Lifeboat" and "Threshhold," I think. Oh, and "Legacy." If you want a good scene that shows what her male patients think of her, the classic one is in "Crystal Skull." Jack's in bed in the infirmary, T is standing next to him. Daniel is missing. Jack starts to get out of bed to go look for him, and T says that Frasier said that wouldn't be a good idea. Jack blows him off, sits up, slides off the bed ... and doesn't stop sliding till he hits the floor. T reaches down, hefts him back onto the bed. "Doctor Fraiser is usually correct," he intones.

This reminds me why rewatching (or watching in some cases) all of SG-1 was a good idea. I'm missing much good character stuff.

[Beatrice Otter]

Kinda off-topic, but I'm curious:

Interesting that you guys are saying American are prudes. I've honestly never thought that. In fact, with shows like Battlestar Galactica and Rescue Me, I sometimes think we're approaching 'naughty' territory. As an American who tries to see outside the 'American-way-of-things,' I've still never considered us as prudes. I, personally, take no offense to that. I just find it puzzling. Do a lot of other nations see us that way?

It depends on what nations you're talking about. To the Middle East and other traditional nations, we are shocking in our immorality. To western Europe, we are and always have been incredible prudes. For example, I spent a semester with a group of American students studying abroad. We went on a couple of trips, and usually stayed right near the train stations for easy transit. In one of the cities (I forget which one), there was an "adult" shop right on the most direct route. I was kind of surprised the first time we walked by it not only that it was in a fairly nice neighborhood but also that its wares (including posters demonstrating their use) were plainly displayed in the window for all to see. In the US, such shops are relegated to seedier districts, and even there, the windows are kept covered. You have to actually go inside to see what they carry. Our professor had brought her 11yo daughter along for that leg of the journey, and was more than a little upset that her daughter had seen that.

With Teyla, whose also received her fair share of criticism regarding her clothing (especially her sparring outfits), they see her 'small' clothing as a blatent attempt by the PTB to put a hot alien bod on the show.

I don't particularly buy the whole 'culture' excuse, either. If that was the case, why don't all the Athosian women dress that way? We've seen several, most recently in 'Conversion,' and they don't dress in clothes that are half as provocative as Teyla. That, to me, demonstrates that the clothing is more personal than cultural in regards to Teyla.

Agree 100%