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    #31
    Originally posted by Whistler84
    Everybody above has such great comments! I want to resond to all, but I don't want to mediate the conversation. Talk and converse among yourselves. Argue or agree. I kinda want that to be the setting in my class, too! But, seriously, great reading here.

    Here's another touchy Sam subject. Why was Cam promoted to leadership position over her? I've only heard snipits of this convo, but I get the gists. Can we get people in here to argue both sides of the argument?
    i think joe mallozzi has tried to answer this, but why don't you go to the ask joe thread and lay out what you plan to do, and ask him something like that yourself. he seems like a good guy, i'm sure if he has time he'll be glad to answer your questions.

    the short answer as far as i can recall is that Cam was not promoted over her. apparently they are sharing the leadership of the team, and the leader of the day would depend on the mission. apparently.

    personally i'm of the opinion that they shouldn't have brought the "new guy" in at the same rank, and that sam/AT deserves to be called SG-1's leader. she's been there for the entire duration of the show. she's got a good history of leading the team. now perhaps when i see season 9 for myself, i'll have a different opinion, but i doubt it.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Whistler84
      Nah. Trust me, at Berkeley, I'll have to turn people away at the door. And as for what aspects I'm going to see, I'll compare various aspects of women in sci-fi from the 60s, 70's, 80's, 90's, and today. (i.e. How have they evolved, and what traits still remain?) I'll show a variaty of media in class (cartoons, movies, tv shows, assign some short reading in books.) Compare fantasy to sci-fi women. Talk about double standards and stereotypes. Warrior women versus spiritual women. Etc . . . That type of stuff.

      Edit: I suppose I could call it 'Sci-fi Women' instead.
      I think Women of Sci-fi sounds a little better somehow. But since you mentioned you're doing different time periods and media, does that mean you'd include stuff like 'The Jetsons'? Obviously Lt. Uhura in ST:OS would be good to mention too and I recall Space 1999 (1975) had a fairly strong female lead, Barbara Bain as Dr Helena Russell.

      Comment


        #33
        The magazine was called Good Housekeeping...

        http://magazines.ivillage.com/goodhousekeeping/

        Thats the website addy i had a look for the article online but couldnt find it...its probably still there somewhere hope you find it

        Comment


          #34
          Obviously Lt. Uhura in ST:OS would be good to mention too
          i think she would be essential. my favourite story about nichelle nichols was about how she was going to leave the show after the first season, and she happened to meet Dr. Martin Luther King, and he said he was a fan of both hers and the show. she thanked him but told him that she was thinking of leaving and he told her that she couldn't do that, because she was such an important role model, and was so essential to the civil rights struggle. so she stayed on the show.
          i think that that statement was so true, and also applicable to the fact that she was a woman. even today, i think that stands. i'm 23 years old, i'm female, i'm white, i live in ireland, and i consider her to be one of the most important role models to ever grace television or film.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Whistler84
            Good suggestions, but why ignore 'Grace'? As far as I remember, that showed Carter in good light. Is your complaint that she was a little too Mary-Sue, or does it have to do with the S/J overtones?
            The problem many viewers have with that ep is the focus put on her personal life--here she is in a life or death situation and she's discussing her personal life? To which my response has always been, what the heck are they expecting, Wonder Woman? She's got at the very least a concussion, fcol! It's so bad she's having trouble standing and walking at times. It's so bad she's having constant, incredibly active hallucinations. Interactive ones, too--remember, she blows bubbles with Grace? And she's in a completely unknown situation--they've never run across this type of nebula before, nor these aliens. Under the circumstances, that she managed to save the ship and crew at all is incredible--they're complaining that she wasn't perfectly on 100% of the time?

            Also, in discussing Sam, I want to know if most people thought the whole S/J relationship reflected well on Carter, or poorly? Did you think she handled the situation appropriately (i.e. avoiding a romantic relationship with him because he was her C.O.), or inappropriately (several people have remarked that she nearly "pinned over Jack like a love-sick teenager.") In general, how have tptb handled the protrayal of Sam's love-life (i.e. Pete, Narim, etc . . .)? And why did they feel the need to emphasize this more than the love-life of the men of SG-1?
            The guys. Daniel had Sha're for the first three seasons, and apart from alien influence (Hathor, Need) kept completely faithful. He's charming, but women come after him, not the other way around--not really a playboy type. Teal'c had Drey'auc, Shaun'auc, and now Ishta; all three were mostly offscreen, but if you search for threads here on the board you'll find some interesting interpretations of hsi relationships with the three women. Jack had one fling early on (Brief Candle) and one quasi-relationship mid-series when he thought he was going to be marooned for the rest of his life (100 Days). Other than that, he's perfectly constant in his affections towards Sam, even when she isn't, until at the very last it becomes clear that she'll never be his (Threads).

            Sam, also does not initiate relationships offworld (just who initiated the relationship with Pete is unclear), but they are more serious. Part of the reason none of them go anywhere is the fact that they are offworld--she spends her life buried in her work, as does Daniel, and doesn't get out much on Earth which really limits her dating scene. She's reluctant to get involved with aliens. The other part of her hesitation is Jolinar--for several seasons, she wasn't sure exactly what part of her emotions were her own and which were left over. But the thing is, apart from late season seven and season eight, she's not pining over Jack despite her feelings for him. She sees no reason to limit her relationships because of him. He on the other hand, apparently does--from the time their feelings for each other becomes known, he has no relationships until she is engaged to another man. He's the one pining for her, not the other way around. Which is a role reversal.

            As to s7/8 Carter, I have no problem with the relationship with Pete, nor even how the PTB handled it. Carter isn't perfect. She's a forty-something career woman who, due to focus on work, hasn't had much long-term serious relationship experience. I find her feelings for O'Neill to be realistic and not lessening; after all, they are two attractive people who have spent years facing life-or-death situations together; the emotional bonding involved is intense, not to mention the effect adrenaline has on the degree of sexual attraction people feel for others. Emotions like that aren't easy to deal with, and to just have them magically go away would have cheapened them. OTOH, to keep Carter in limbo for too much longer would have cheapened her character, as well. I like the fact that they weren't afraid to deal with issues that needed dealing with, even if it revealed the fact that Carter wasn't perfect.

            You want to look at a firestorm of fan reaction? Take a look at Anise/Freya, aka "Tok'ra Spice" and "Tok'ra Barbie." She is a Tok'ra scientist in a few eps of season 4 (most notably "Upgrades" and "Divide and Conquer"). The guys like her because she's hot, but most female viewers hate her with a passion. Why? Because she's blatantly SG-1's answer to Seven of Nine: a hot chick.

            I'd also take a look at the demographics of each show you mention: who watched it vs. who it was aimed at. While a wide variety of people watch SciFi, most of it is aimed at young/teen men. Stargate was one of the first shows to acknowledge that women watch, as well, and as such has a proportionately larger market share among women.

            Fan culture is always interesting; for female influences, try fanfic, which is dominated by women.

            You are going to take a close look at Buffy, right? Because that show has so much going on, it's incredible.
            My LiveJournal.

            If you can find a path with no obstacles, it probably doesn't lead anywhere.
            -Frank A. Clark

            An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?
            -Michel de Saint-Pierre

            Now, there's this about cynicism. It's the universe's most supine moral position. Real comfortable. If nothing can be done, then you're not some kind of **** for not doing it, and you can lie there and stink to yourself in perfect peace.
            -Lois McMaster Bujold, "The Borders of Infinity"

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Beatrice
              You are going to take a close look at Buffy, right? Because that show has so much going on, it's incredible.
              Gotta agree there. Great hero and example for all women. I'm a guy, and I really enjoyed most of that show. She totally kicked ass.
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              Sunday is my favorite day for two reasons - Football and The Walking Dead

              Comment


                #37
                Okay, wow. I go away for a couple of hours and so much great conversation happens. Let's address some things:

                First off, I am in the middle of writing several questions up for Joe Mallozzi's thread. Hopefully, he'll be kind enough to answer at least one question from what's turning out to be a long list of 'em! Major thanks to Stargate Barbie for suggesting such a good idea. I can't believe the thought never crossed my mind!

                2.) As for people wondering what other female characters I'm going to cover, yes, I'm going to cover classics like Lt. Uhura in ST:OS. I'll be clearing space for a couple of classes at the beginning to run down through each decade and it's infamous females, and Lt. Uhura is actually one of the first people I thought of for that (I’ll contrast her with other early sci-fi females, like Nancy Archer of ‘The Attack of the Fifty Foot Women’ movie). But I think I'm going to put more focus on more recent TV shows, because not a lot of people are very familiar with the classics. I want the majority of the class to be able to relate to a lot of what I talk about, and classics are often overlooked in our generations. Yet, I don't want to overlook history, either. It's a fine line to walk.

                Mainly, the characters I'm going to be mentioning/emphasizing are going to popular in this generation. I can go back a little bit, like with Aliens (Ellen Ripley), because pretty much everybody knows about the Alien franchise. Beyond that, I’ll cover Sarah Connor (I’ve got a thing for Cameron. The man just knows how to do strong women), Wonder Women (and other comic women), Dana Scully, Princess Leia, Sydney Bristow (kinda sci-fi), Xena, Kathryn Janeway, and the other women of Star Trek, etc . . . In books, I'll cover Hermione Granger, and Lyra (from His Dark Materials), Narnia women, LOTR women (in contrast to how they were protrayed in the movie), etc . . . That’s just to begin with! There's plenty more, but if you've got suggestions, I'm willing to hear.

                But Buffy is going to be a must!!!! I’ve been an avid fan of that since day one, and I honestly cannot think of better example of feminism in sci-fi! She’s going to be a *big* part of my class, no doubt. Willow, Cordelia, and Faith will get their turns, too. Not to mention one of the few times we’d ever had female villains, mainly Jasmine, Glory, (and my personal fav) Darla.

                Edit: Oh, and BSG (the new one). I can't believe I almost forgot to mention the many great women there!!! All of them strong, independent, and brave.

                Okay, I think that’s enough off-topic conversation. Back to Stargate!

                Nutty_One111, thanks for the link!!! I gave you green.

                And Beatrice, thanks for the 411. I really appreciate any and all input I can get on SG-1. This type of information may seem obvious to you guys, but I'm such a novice at SG-1. So again, thanks.

                How about the other women of SG-1? Fraiser? Vala? I happen to like Vala, and don’t necessarily agree with the notion that she’s the antitheses of feminism. Like previously mentioned by Purpleyin, just because she uses the taboo of sex to get what she wants, doesn’t automatically make her an anti-feminist. I know there’s a lot of debate about her character. Bring it on. I need to hear all sides of the story, here.

                And Fraiser? What’s so great about her? (Note: I am a fan of her, but work with me here). Do you think she’s a prime example of sci-fi women? Do you think she’s not special enough to be awarded a position next to names like Xena and Scully? Etc . . .

                Once I think we’ve covered this, I’m going to move onto the women of SGA. There, I’m a lot more in my element!!
                Last edited by Whistler84; 01 October 2005, 09:49 PM.

                Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
                I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
                Spoiler:
                Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Beatrice
                  You want to look at a firestorm of fan reaction? Take a look at Anise/Freya, aka "Tok'ra Spice" and "Tok'ra Barbie." She is a Tok'ra scientist in a few eps of season 4 (most notably "Upgrades" and "Divide and Conquer"). The guys like her because she's hot, but most female viewers hate her with a passion. Why? Because she's blatantly SG-1's answer to Seven of Nine: a hot chick.

                  I'd also take a look at the demographics of each show you mention: who watched it vs. who it was aimed at. While a wide variety of people watch SciFi, most of it is aimed at young/teen men. Stargate was one of the first shows to acknowledge that women watch, as well, and as such has a proportionately larger market share among women.

                  Fan culture is always interesting; for female influences, try fanfic, which is dominated by women.
                  I think the male demographic, and the fact everyone knows that is important to the networks, often is where the problem stems from when people see 'hot chick' characters and they don't like it because it's presumed it's only for that demographics superficial benefit. I don't know, but I must be one of the few people who didn't have a problem with Anise/Freya. I actually liked what little we saw of her character, and the fact we saw alot of her midriff wasn't an issue, but then I have no problem with Vala either...

                  But fan culture is definitely something hat should be covered. I think supposedly 90% of fanfic authors are women and Weir at least, I find represented really well in fanfic (most of it anyway). I think it must be that with women writing they just know how to write her better than the blokes of TPTB. Not to say they can't write women well ever, but you can see the difference. People don't tend to criticise Weir in fanfic, though that may be because only people who like her would bother reading it, unless we're talking about team fic.
                  Originally posted by Whistler84
                  But Buffy is going to be a must!!!! I’ve been an avid fan of that since day one, and I honestly cannot think of better example of feminism in sci-fi! She’s going to be a *big* part of my class, no doubt. Willow, Cordelia, and Faith will get their turns, too. Not to mention one of the few times we’d ever had female villains, mainly Jasmine, Glory, (and my personal fav) Darla.
                  Oh and they had Druisilla of course, and even a female Watcher turned evil... But is Buffy sci-fi or are you covering sci-fi/fantasy. If so then would the original King Kong be a good example to discuss? Especially since it's being remade, and it'd be interesting to see how the new ones handles the female character, if it's done differently for today's world.
                  Originally posted by Whistler84
                  Edit: Oh, and BSG (the new one). I can't believe I almost forgot to mention the many great women there!!! All of them strong, independent, and brave.
                  Yes, Six is a wonderful villian, though funnily enough most people (and guys) I know find her annoying - they seem to regard her as the character who appears only to antagonise and sex Gaius, maybe that's why they don't like her much, I'm not sure, just that they often look like they want to groan when she comes on.
                  Originally posted by Whistler84
                  How about the other women of SG-1? Fraiser? Vala? I happen to like Vala, and don’t necessarily agree with the notion that she’s the antitheses of feminism. Like previously mentioned by Purpleyin, just because she uses the taboo of sex to get what she wants, doesn’t automatically make her an anti-feminist. I know there’s a lot of debate about her character. Bring it on. I need to hear all sides of the story, here.

                  And Fraiser? What’s so great about her? (Note: I am a fan of her, but work with me here). Do you think she’s a prime example of sci-fi women? Do you think she’s not special enough to be awarded a position next to names like Xena and Scully? Etc . . .

                  Once I think we’ve covered this, I’m going to move onto the women of SGA. There, I’m a lot more in my element!!
                  I'm not a huge SG-1 buff so I can't help too much on Friaser, but at the very least it's interesting how much support there was for her recurring character - I mean people really cared when she died, and TPTB knew she was much loved and that was why she was killed off. In a way it was almost an honour for her character, because people identified with her so well. She got a long run for a recurring character, and was up there with Hammond as one of the people who you'd knew would be there to help SG-1 - and then suddenly she's not and people felt the difference.

                  I do wonder if some dislike of Vala (and Lam?) at the start of the season, might be because people are used to the strong, capable women like Sam and Janet, and they didn't want them replaced with new characters who haven't got that depth, and need investing in when you can't be sure they won't die too, or that they'll ever be as good as the longterm characters. On the surface Vala is superficial like other not particularly liked characters, but maybe people can't look beyond that because of preconceptions about the target audience; they can't see beyond what they think is being represented? Does that make sense? It's just a suggestion, I don't claim to be right, and it's inspired by a south park episode I saw the other day... which sounds odd but it was a good one. Everyone was so tied up in whether the south park flag was racist they missed the point that the children didn't see it the same way at all, everyone one was just a person... Anyway, before this gets weirder I'll stop here.
                  Last edited by Purpleyin; 02 October 2005, 07:14 AM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Did no one read my comment

                    Comment


                      #40
                      About Vala. I really don´t see how she is anti feminist. She is a strong woman who knows what she wants and goes after it. She uses men as it suits her and is very comfortable with who she is. Is feminism really just about the woman being strong and independant while all flirting or interest in men is absent? (Should note that I didn´t really like Vala, her one liners became increasingly old).

                      I sometimes wonder if the view on these things aren´t way too biased by American morals regarding sex and nudity in general. Now don´t take this the wrong way but Americans can be incredible prudes at times (the whole Janet Jackson thing is enough prove of that). This spills over into how they think about women who are free to be who they are. Now I think these things are finally starting to change in the last few years with shows like "Sex and the city" which featured women who were uninhibeted (I never watched that show but thats what I´ve been told about it). It´s therefore important to view it inlight of what society it springs from.

                      As for Buffy, like someone else said before me that show isn´t sci-fi and really shouldn´t be lumped together with things like stargate unless your covering scifi/fantasy.

                      But take everything I say apart from that last paragraph with a grain of salt as I´m a guy not known for being in touch with his feminin side

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by S.G.C
                        Did no one read my comment
                        Read it and you're right, just need to cover as many as possible. But we still like talking about it all, as the conversation doesn't stop at who to cover, but why and how etc. You could always join in S.G.C ...

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Kinda off-topic, but I'm curious:

                          Interesting that you guys are saying American are prudes. I've honestly never thought that. In fact, with shows like Battlestar Galactica and Rescue Me, I sometimes think we're approaching 'naughty' territory. As an American who tries to see outside the 'American-way-of-things,' I've still never considered us as prudes. I, personally, take no offense to that. I just find it puzzling. Do a lot of other nations see us that way?

                          But back on-topic:

                          I don't think that Americans necessarily have a problem with sexuality being displayed on SG-1 and SGA, but how it's protrayed. With Vala (who, btw, I still like a lot), most people don't see beyond the veneer of her sexuality. I don't quite get this argument, but from my understanding, they see Vala as a woman who sets back the women's liberation a couple of decades. She's all about sex, and using her femininty to get what she wants is an old trick that, for a long time, actually kept women in their place as simply sexual objects. "A women's place is in the bedroom, or in the kitchen." Vala's got half of that down, anyway. A lot of people think a modern-day woman should try to dispel that notion, instead of perpetuating it. Plus, they also see her as completely one-dimensional. She's obsessed with sex, and while its okay to be in touch with that side, it's shouldn't be all she's about. (Any anti-Vala fans out there, did I get that right? Help!)

                          With Teyla, whose also received her fair share of criticism regarding her clothing (especially her sparring outfits), they see her 'small' clothing as a blatent attempt by the PTB to put a hot alien bod on the show. I actually agree with this, despite being a huge Teyla fan. Teyla is more than that, but her clothing does put her in a light that I don't particularly like. Rachel Luttrell is a gorgeous person (in my eyes) and I don't think you need to put her in that silly little purple top to demonstrate her beauty. Both Sam and Weir are protrayed as feminine, without the need of such exposure. Then, why Teyla? I don't particularly buy the whole 'culture' excuse, either. If that was the case, why don't all the Athosian women dress that way? We've seen several, most recently in 'Conversion,' and they don't dress in clothes that are half as provocative as Teyla. That, to me, demonstrates that the clothing is more personal than cultural in regards to Teyla.

                          However, to judge a person solely on her clothing is the very definition of superfiscal, I think. Judge her on her *actions* - you know, that thing where she talks and walks and does other various stuff that involves movement and/or thinking. If you don't like that stuff, fine, I may disagree, but at least you have a solid ground to stand on in your opinion. But to base your opinion on what she wears? Ever heard of the wise old words of 'Don't judge a book by it's cover.' That's my defense here. A person, any person, should not be judged solely on what type of clothing he/she wears. That's why, despite my dislike for Telya's wardrobe, I'm a huge fan of the character.

                          Wanna sig? Ask me. I'll probably make you one.
                          I would also like it noted that in The Long Goodbye,
                          Spoiler:
                          Weir asked John to be her husband, and he said yes!! HA!!! LOL!

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Whistler84
                            Good suggestions, but why ignore 'Grace'? As far as I remember, that showed Carter in good light. Is your complaint that she was a little too Mary-Sue, or does it have to do with the S/J overtones?
                            I have no problem with the ship itself in theory, but how it was handled (botched?) by TPTB really turned me off. I've brought up Grace in a few other threads, but my main problem with it is that you have an otherwise strong intelligent woman who considers giving up her position as one of the world's foremost astrophysicists (and as a galaxy-saving heroine) just so she can be with her man.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by Wyrminarrd
                              This spills over into how they think about women who are free to be who they are. Now I think these things are finally starting to change in the last few years with shows like "Sex and the city" which featured women who were uninhibeted (I never watched that show but thats what I´ve been told about it). It´s therefore important to view it inlight of what society it springs from.
                              I only saw a few episodes of Sex and the City and I personally never found them to be uninhibited in a good way. All the four of them did together was talk about sex and shoes. They didn't strike me as being in any way liberated. But maybe they weren't supposed to be.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Whistler84
                                Kinda off-topic, but I'm curious:

                                Interesting that you guys are saying American are prudes. I've honestly never thought that. In fact, with shows like Battlestar Galactica and Rescue Me, I sometimes think we're approaching 'naughty' territory. As an American who tries to see outside the 'American-way-of-things,' I've still never considered us as prudes. I, personally, take no offense to that. I just find it puzzling. Do a lot of other nations see us that way?
                                The US is obviously is a very large and diverse country, but with the prevalence of the religious right there, as represented by President Bush, there may be good reason for the prude image. But it's not like those kinds of people exist only in the United States - there was a letter in a local newspaper here recently complaining about how a bus poster for The 40-Year-Old Virgin was tearing apart the moral fabric of our society. The poster read, "He needs to get off his bike and start riding." Personally I found it funny. (The poster and the letter, that is.)

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