Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[SoulReaver]

Well considering even the Q had respect and a bit of fear for the Bor

"fear"

lol

[Tetsujin]

"fear"

lol

I agree. I think the best the Borg could muster would be to somewhat annoy the continuum. One single Q could erase all Borg from existence if they even hinted at trying something.

[Tetsujin]

The point is, the weapons in both occasions were operating outside their normal operating parameters. You cannot take such circumstances as a launchpad in any way, because regardless of whether you've been able to repair the damage, if you keep damaging the system from overcharging it you will do permenant damage somewhere along the line. Tetsujin mentioned overclocking a CPU- imagine doing that over and over again, because you want/need to achieve a particular speed. Even if you can mitigate the damage to a degree, you will accelerate the wear and tear on the device much more quickly than through normal use.

-_-. No matter how many times I explain it you just dont seem to understand. I am not using the overcharged shot as normal circumstances but I am using it to show the full capability of the weapons if the situation requires a quick burst of energy. This was also the first usage of the weapon period as far as SF is concerned thus was most likely upgraded on numerous occasions once normal operating parameters were established. I mentioned overclocking a computer too far. You can safely overclock certain CPU's to a degree and if you add the proper cooling apparatus the CPU can safely remain overclocked. Again you seem to have ignored the fact that I showed a progression of ships combat capabilities based on standard weapon usage and the NX class was a pretty weak ship compared to the other major powers of the time and was bested by a 22nd century variant of the Bird of Prey. Even going off of what was said and seen in the show a constitution class heavily outguns the NX class and the Constitution class would get annihilated by even the weakest modern federation vessels of similar size.

Improvements to their normal operating parameters, yes. Not necessarily radical increases in firepower.

It applies to both. As we have seen the firepower difference between an NX class and Constitution class . No ship has thus far been able to even come close in combat capability to a ship build that far appart without a complete overhaul to all systems. The difference in firepower and shielding capability is clear and decisive between the different era's of ST ships.

The question is, how much more powerful are these progressions, new designs and upgrades.

Powerful enough where each ship can decidedly defeat a ship lower than it. Keep in mind that while still heavily outclassing the D7, the Intrepid class isnt even a Battleship, it is a Mid sized cruiser and still was able to disable the ship easily.

I do take into account more than visuals- however visuals are at the top of my list, as you can observe something visually and then arrive at conclusions. Dialogue comes into play as a secondary source, and then you have logic, based on those observations and dialogue.

Like I have stated before, in regards to real life events visuals are probably best, however dealing with a universe that is not real and all visuals are subject to the whim of a few individuals which have admitted to changing visuals to suit the story even though it defies logic, makes it illogical to place to much faith in visuals.

Regarding the Founders' home world, we know it's a world that humans can survive on (how else would Sisko et al have survived when held prisoner there in The Search?). We therefore know it has an atmosphere. There are certain properties of the mantle and planetary structure which are actually quite important to the presence of a stable atmosphere.

Regarding the visuals vs dialogue, there are two ways to reconcile the two here. 1: the characters were simply wrong, and had grossly overestimated the capabilities of their ships. 2: there is evidence to suggest that phasers at least, work via chain reactions and not raw firepower; a chain reaction would explain the damage to the Founders' planet but also explain how we see very little visual evidence for this. This would also explain why we see low firepower (such as in Survivors) be so effective- a chain reaction only requires a kickstart, then the reaction itself takes care of the rest.

I will repeat that having an atmosphere has nothing to do with mantle still being still volcanically active. All that means it that at some point the planet would have been volcanically active but that does not mean it is currently. Also you are taking visuals at face value even though you know that extra money and work would have been done to make it 100% realistic and sometimes budget doesnt warrant it. There has also been quite a few other instances where weapons fire has been shown to cause residual heating effects, such as the episode “The Pegasus” which furthers my point that “The Die Is Cast” was a omission of visual elements.

I'm not aware of the damage done in What you Leave Behind being the result of ground troops. We've never seen ground troops produce anything like that in any other ground fight on Star Trek either.

I suggested this episode should be dropped because whether it was a ground or orbital assault or what happened exactly at all can not be confirmed and it doesnt fit with the damage shown to be done in an orbital bombardment outside of obvious plot events. No its not a cop out because there are so many inconsistencies in ST: Nemesis it hurts.

The Federation was also vulnerable to Dominion weapons until the DS9 season 5 finale, and the Breen have certainly never demonstrated the ability to beam through shields. Plus, it would seem completely suicidal to land ground troops in such a circumstance- not to mention the possibility of capture.

We are still talking about this why?

Then what are we supposed to do? If we cannot agree a baseline to even things like asteroids and planets, then we might as well abandon any attempt to have a debate. I can put forth the idea that the Founders' planet was no more than 10 miles in diameter and that the planet in Beach Head was the size of a small sun, and we can go completely into the realm of endless speculation.

-_-...I think the idea of saying everything is a certain size would lead to more issues than would be solved by allowing it. We can assume unless evidence can contradict it, but we can not assume something that would drastically alter power levels in an obviously ambiguous situation should be used as solid evidence to begin with and can only be taken as general assumption with backing of events. For example, “The Die is Cast” can be taken as a show of power but since we dont know specifics we can not simply apply a number and act as though that number is true.

There's a clip of the Enterprise (the size of which is known) entering a chasm in the asteroid. There is enough room inside the asteroid for a ship several hundred metres in length to move around reasonably comfortably, and no one in the episode itself suggests the asteroid is in the double-digits for KM size. The very script of the episode refers to the asteroid as being proto-planetary in nature, and the composition of such asteroids is not unknown to us.

So we have a shot of a ship that is over half a kilometer in length traveling inside of an object for kilometers relative comfort. No one suggest that the asteroid is of any size verbally. If you factor in the time it took for the Enterprise to reach the inner surface of the asteroid, the speed at which it was said to be traveling while traversing through solid matter, and the very logical assumption that they would want to travel through as little solid matter as possible while using a device that left the last ship embedded in rock, you get a pretty hefty size for the asteroid. They would not have risked the lives of everyone on the ship by traveling through 3 kilometers of the asteroid if they could have traveled through a lesser amount going a different direction.

Also how can you say you know the composition of an unknown asteroid in a universe where materials exist that arent present in real life are commonly found on planets. Also the asteroid was said to be likely emitting varying gravimetric an magnetic fluctuations that would overpower the engines of their shuttlecraft which means there must have been more to the asteroid than just simple rock.

[Tetsujin]

The flare we see initially on the view screen could still be, based on the size of the star, flare, and vantage point, one which did not come into direct contact with the Enterprise.

We can assume it did not, however that was not the only flare. Also even if the flare did not come into direct contact with the ship it would have delivered quite some energy into the surrounding area especially at that close a distance to the star.

It's worth noting that, based on the evidence from the episode, and work from not one but two people, who have both studied the visuals in far more depth than myself, and it's also worth noting that An Ancient did allow for the star to be either B or O: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=84338

Yes work from one person who inaccurately used figures for a type of star different than the one in the episode in question and another who based his estimates on that inaccurate usage. The output and emissions of a O type star differ greatly depending on if the star is main phase or not. Since the star was not main sequence since it was a blue giant the figures used by An Ancient do not apply.

There wouldn't need to be any major solar activity for the Hatak to absorb a considerable amount of energy from such a star. Blue giants are far more luminous than our own star and give off more energy as a matter of course.

Yes, but not as much as the people calculations you are relying on. Also this would be ambient radiation an not direct energy transfer like you would find near a solar flare. Also a solar flare relaeases energy comparable to the total output of a star.

The visuals don't bear out the idea that a flare hits the E-D's shields, the E-D may have only been caught in the periphery of a flare, if indeed at all.

The periphery of a flare still would be absorbing much more energy than normal solar activity in a short amount of time.

http://stardestroyer.net/Resources/C...xplosions.html- put in 812000 into the yield box and you get a fireball weighing in at 99.9KM at a minumum. I will again point out that there is no reason to doubt An Ancient's work.

I would say the fact he used the wrong classification of star in his calculations is reason to doubt the calculations -_-. Like I had stated before the fireballs do not increase on a obvious way in relation to yield this a much larger yield would be required to achieve a larger fireball(if primarily thermal release was desired) Also since Carters statement was somewhat ambiguous as to the effects of the weapon(whether 100mi was the fireball range or blast radius as a whole), and the fact that a 50MT explosive had enough thermal energy to cause third degree burns over 50mi from the blast site. Other nuclear weapon can have varying thermal effects at range much greater than the actual fireball, which is why I said even 812GT was in reality very generous given that yield was never stated and the range wasnt specifically attributed to the fireball.

Anubis could have raided the ruins of the Tollan civilisation for other technological secrets. He wouldn't have been wise to assume that he could have stolen only one article of technology. Plus, again, in the other examples, why would such high firepower be necessary? The Goa'uld liked to take prisoners to torture (not the smartest policy, but certainly in fitting with their egotistical nature), so, with the exception of Homecoming, which I still need to see, there is nothing in the orbital bombardment catagory to proof low firepower.

He definitely could have, but considering we see no evidence of the advanced technologies the Tollans possesed, we can assume most of them along with at least the ion cannons were destroyed. Also the damage didnt seem to impressive in that episode considering it was supposedly hit by direct Ha'tak weapons fire if you want to look at it visually. I dont think general policy was to take prisoners for the sake of taking prisoners, especially if it meant taking the change of retribution from a dangerous enemy. The principle of “double tap” would apply leaving unnecessary firepower being likely used since its not like it would be a waste of anything.

Well as I say, I need to see it before I can pass judgement.

Well when you look at the episode you will have to agree that what hits the ground does in no way amount to 200MT yet they were supposedly trying pretty hard to disable/destroy Anubis's ship at the time.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

How come you singled out my post and didn’t do a general reply to both tetsujin and I?
Remember there’s no rush.

The point is, the weapons in both occasions were operating outside their normal operating parameters. You cannot take such circumstances as a launchpad in any way, because regardless of whether you've been able to repair the damage, if you keep damaging the system from overcharging it you will do permenant damage somewhere along the line. Tetsujin mentioned overclocking a CPU- imagine doing that over and over again, because you want/need to achieve a particular speed. Even if you can mitigate the damage to a degree, you will accelerate the wear and tear on the device much more quickly than through normal use.

No that is not the point, the point is this is what the weapon is fully capable of before you put so much energy through it that it blows up from a single shot.
You haven’t proven that the upper limit before overload is much lower than what we saw, the fact that the weapon wasn’t entirely destroyed and would be operational a short amount of time after the weapon was fired means it can’t be that much above it‘s maximum useable potential.
No one’s saying these weapons are always used in this way, but like Tetsujin said minor improvements to certain systems could easily allow for this kind of firepower from future vessels and considering the fact that the Enterprise is much weaker than even the next generation of klingon ships their firepower must be even greater than this.
The display of firepower in Silent Enemy is still much greater than anything displayed by either the Ha’Taks or Ori motherships, so I don‘t know why you are still arguing against this, it‘s visual, it proves the point and that should be the end of the discussion.

Improvements to their normal operating parameters, yes. Not necessarily radical increases in firepower.

Actually yes from generation to generation you’d need radical increases in firepower to make such a benchmark piece of technology obsolete otherwise the same exact phase cannons used on the NX-01 would still be in use in the 24th century.

The question is, how much more powerful are these progressions, new designs and upgrades.

They’re obviously a great deal more powerful otherwise the Phase Cannons and everything else on the NX-01 Enterprise would still be in use on the Enterprise E, in fact there wouldn’t be an Enterprise E you’d still have the NX-01.

I do take into account more than visuals- however visuals are at the top of my list, as you can observe something visually and then arrive at conclusions. Dialogue comes into play as a secondary source, and then you have logic, based on those observations and dialogue.

You can’t be, not if you’re coming to the conclusions that you’ve come to about The Die Is Cast.
It would be absolutely impossible for everyone to be mistaken about the end results of the attack on the Founder’s Homeworld, not with the capabilities of their technology being common knowledge to anyone in the military of each race.
If we are to suspend disbelief it is impossible that the visuals represent what you believe they do.
We even see large shockwaves covering what looked like continental sized portions of the planet.

Regarding the Founders' home world, we know it's a world that humans can survive on (how else would Sisko et al have survived when held prisoner there in The Search?). We therefore know it has an atmosphere. There are certain properties of the mantle and planetary structure which are actually quite important to the presence of a stable atmosphere.

Yes it has an atmosphere, it obviously has gravity similar to the earth, but the founders are a race, on a par technologically with the federation, they could be manipulating the planet to be liveable for the Jem’hadar and Vortar.
Point here is you don’t know the properties of the planet so you don’t know the effects you should expect to see on Earth is what we should see, since we don’t see what you expect logically the planet isn’t made how you believe it should be.
Tetsujin has mentioned the mantel and when a planet has to be active, so I’ll refer to his points on that issue.

Regarding the visuals vs dialogue, there are two ways to reconcile the two here. 1: the characters were simply wrong, and had grossly overestimated the capabilities of their ships.

This is impossible given that they have scientifically developed their own technologies and had many years experience using them in recent wars.

2: there is evidence to suggest that phasers at least, work via chain reactions and not raw firepower; a chain reaction would explain the damage to the Founders' planet but also explain how we see very little visual evidence for this.

Where is there evidence for this?
You can’t just say “there’s evidence for this, that and not present it.
Silent Enemy proves phasers have a lot of power, more than the Ha’Taks and Ori Motherships.

This would also explain why we see low firepower (such as in Survivors) be so effective- a chain reaction only requires a kickstart, then the reaction itself takes care of the rest.

Survivors contradicts Silent Enemy, since a weapon of greater power than the one fired in TNG is capable of bringing down the Enterprise D’s shields, such a thing should be impossible, since the NX-01 would be no match for a vessel built in the 24th century.
Phasers are a proven raw power weapon because they quickly drill through portions of a planet and obliterate large mountains, something no energy weapon on Stargate has ever been shown to be capable of.

I'm not aware of the damage done in What you Leave Behind being the result of ground troops. We've never seen ground troops produce anything like that in any other ground fight on Star Trek either.

There was no mention in the episode that the federation fleet was striking the planet from orbit, that wouldn’t happen since the federation wouldn’t try killing the innocent Cardassian people on the planet.
Damar and his troops were attacking the dominion with there hand weapons and explosives.
Explosives were mentioned.
Admiral Ross talks about sending troops down to the planet.
There’s also mention made in that episode of Dominion troops reducing Lakarian City to ashes and killing 2 million people in a matter of moments.

The Federation was also vulnerable to Dominion weapons until the DS9 season 5 finale, and the Breen have certainly never demonstrated the ability to beam through shields. Plus, it would seem completely suicidal to land ground troops in such a circumstance- not to mention the possibility of capture.

The Dominion and Breen were allies, usually allies share technology.
It’s only suicidal if they brought no weapons (which given the damage given isn’t possible) and were in such low numbers that they wouldn’t be a match for the federation forces on the planet.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Then what are we supposed to do? If we cannot agree a baseline to even things like asteroids and planets, then we might as well abandon any attempt to have a debate. I can put forth the idea that the Founders' planet was no more than 10 miles in diameter and that the planet in Beach Head was the size of a small sun, and we can go completely into the realm of endless speculation.

As I said before work things out on a case by case basis, based on the evidence we have.
Making stuff up just because it suits this person and that person makes things completely inaccurate.
What you’re suggesting is speculation and nothing more.

There's a clip of the Enterprise (the size of which is known) entering a chasm in the asteroid. There is enough room inside the asteroid for a ship several hundred metres in length to move around reasonably comfortably, and no one in the episode itself suggests the asteroid is in the double-digits for KM size. The very script of the episode refers to the asteroid as being proto-planetary in nature, and the composition of such asteroids is not unknown to us.

I’ve seen it, it’s the episode where Tetsujin showed the proof the enterprise d could travel kilometers per second.
Looking at that part of the episode the asteroid doesn’t look that small, it looks very wide as the enterprise is coming towards it.

The flare we see initially on the view screen could still be, based on the size of the star, flare, and vantage point, one which did not come into direct contact with the Enterprise.

We only see from the bridge view screen, but the visual makes it look very large and close to the Enterprise so I don’t see how you can come to that conclusion.
The Enterprise wasn’t be rocked as it normally is when it’s shields are being struck by weapons fire, it was later so that should allow us to draw the conclusion that the shields of the ship were being struck by flares other wise Data wouldn’t have mentioned them

It's worth noting that, based on the evidence from the episode, and work from not one but two people, who have both studied the visuals in far more depth than myself, and it's also worth noting that An Ancient did allow for the star to be either B or O: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=84338

But he calculated it incorrectly as Tetsujin said.

There wouldn't need to be any major solar activity for the Hatak to absorb a considerable amount of energy from such a star. Blue giants are far more luminous than our own star and give off more energy as a matter of course.

There’s only evidence to support the Ha’Tak being just far enough into the corona to mask the Goauld’s sensors from detecting the ship, Tetsujin has worked out based on the curvature of the star how close the Ha’Tak is to the star, he’s also mentioned the fact that at the distance the Enterprise was from the Relics star that it was much closer to a more energy dense region of a star, so unless massive flares were striking the shields of the Ha’Tak then no it’s not under a greater level of strain.

The visuals don't bear out the idea that a flare hits the E-D's shields, the E-D may have only been caught in the periphery of a flare, if indeed at all.

We only see the flare through the view screen on the bridge, it looks close at that point but the ship isn’t being rocked, it is later, this only happens when the shields are struck.

http://stardestroyer.net/Resources/C...xplosions.html- put in 812000 into the yield box and you get a fireball weighing in at 99.9KM at a minumum. I will again point out that there is no reason to doubt An Ancient's work.

I put in the yield of the Tsar Bomb (50 megatons) and it came up wrong with a fireball of 2.1 kilometers, according to many sources I’ve used, by typing into google “fireball size of the Tsar Bomb” it was 8 kilometers.
So I don’t trust that calculator.
There’s also the fact that An Ancient calculated the wrong star for his information as Tetsujin pointed out, so yes I doubt his work.

Anubis could have raided the ruins of the Tollan civilisation for other technological secrets. He wouldn't have been wise to assume that he could have stolen only one article of technology. Plus, again, in the other examples, why would such high firepower be necessary? The Goa'uld liked to take prisoners to torture (not the smartest policy, but certainly in fitting with their egotistical nature), so, with the exception of Homecoming, which I still need to see, there is nothing in the orbital bombardment catagory to proof low firepower.

You need to provide proof of the yields you keep stating the Goauld are capable of, you haven’t so far.
The system lords have had plenty of situations where even 1% of the firepower capabilities you believe they are able to achieve would have been useful like uninhabited planets where SG1 has been present and exploring ruins yet they never fired off even a fraction of the power of weapons you claim they could achieve.
After years of being a thorn in their sides they wanted to destroy SG teams yet they didn’t, they supposedly could have efficiently according to you, but they never did, if we apply your favourite deductive tool Occam’s Razor then we’re left with only one possibility that they couldn’t achieve those yields you believe them to be capable of.
You keep inferring what the Goauld’s intent is, yet you provide no evidence for it, you need to prove it, Tetsujin and I have already provided occasions when there was no motive other than destruction.
What other pieces of technology besides the phase bombs would be of use to Anubis?
I can’t think of any, since the ion cannons were not powerful enough to be a threat to his shields, he had ascended knowledge and more advanced Ancient tech at his disposal.

Well as I say, I need to see it before I can pass judgement.

I did post a link to the part of the episode in question in one of my previous replies to you.

[prometheus unbound]

Stargate's ship building program is in it's infancy. If it were not for donated/stolen technology, we would still be limited to visiting the moon.

um one word NAQUADRIA

[RJLCyberPunk]

Any SG race with the technological level of the Goa'uld can beat the average Star Trek race (Klingons, Romulans, Federation, etc.).

Indeed, the weapons in SG completely Pwn most of what the Trek universe can dish out and I have no clue as to how they got into the conclusion that SG Earth could be defeated by Trek ships when those people themselves admit those very same trek ships would be defeated by Asgard ships and Earth ships have Asgard shields and weaponry so can anyone say there is egg on your face right there.

[Ark Cammando]

Then you have the Borg who are very much like the replicator, except for one major difference, Where as the Replicators will kill everyone and anything in there way, the borg will assimilate you and gain your knowledge, which I may add is more powerful then any weapon. And a perk they can keep up with any SG ship thanks to Transwarp conduits.

The Replicators designed by the ancients can also suck the knowledge from your brain. They also don't get killed by engine coolant.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Indeed, the weapons in SG completely Pwn most of what the Trek universe can dish out and I have no clue as to how they got into the conclusion that SG Earth could be defeated by Trek ships when those people themselves admit those very same trek ships would be defeated by Asgard ships and Earth ships have Asgard shields and weaponry so can anyone say there is egg on your face right there.

You need to provide proof of your claims, just as everyone else here has to.
If the later ships in ST can destroys portions of a planet and a vessel from 200 years before the most recent ships can do something that even one of the most powerful ships in SG can't do then how in the hell are SG ships gonna as you say "completely PWN most of what the ST universe can dish out"?

The fact we have Asgard shields and weapons means nothing, when the effects of those weapons either shown or described on the show are no where near as high as the capabilties of those races in ST.

People who favor the SG side also completely forget the fact that most of the main technologically advanced races in ST each have numbers that would vastly outnumber the entire SG universe as shown on the shows.

The only area ST may lack in is the propulsion area, but in both defensive and offensive parts they are clearly superior.
All evidence for this has been provided over the last few pages.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

um one word NAQUADRIA

Which earth couldn't make work properly in hyperdrive technology, not if they pass near a black hole in hyperspace.
As far as using it for weapons like the mark 9, we've only seen a couple of those weapons, there's nothing indicating earth can produce high quanities of them.

The Replicators designed by the ancients can also suck the knowledge from your brain. They also don't get killed by engine coolant.

Do you know what that engine coolant is composed of?
I'm not saying it would be effect against Reps, but you can't use it as part of an argument unless you know the answer for sure, which you don't.

[Akai]

Which earth couldn't make work properly in hyperdrive technology, not if they pass near a black hole in hyperspace.
As far as using it for weapons like the mark 9, we've only seen a couple of those weapons, there's nothing indicating earth can produce high quanities of them.



Do you know what that engine coolant is composed of?
I'm not saying it would be effect against Reps, but you can't use it as part of an argument unless you know the answer for sure, which you don't.

The warp core coolant wouldn't harm Replicators in the slightest. It didn't even harm Data (it dissolved the organic tissue that had been grafted onto him but left him otherwise unharmed). They stated in the movie that it would pretty much liquify any biological material on contact...but didn't really do much to anything else. It killed the Borg because they are not pure machines, they are cyborgs, and are heavily dependent on their biological components. The Replicators are not, they are purely machines.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The warp core coolant wouldn't harm Replicators in the slightest. It didn't even harm Data (it dissolved the organic tissue that had been grafted onto him but left him otherwise unharmed). They stated in the movie that it would pretty much liquify any biological material on contact...but didn't really do much to anything else. It killed the Borg because they are not pure machines, they are cyborgs, and are heavily dependent on their biological components. The Replicators are not, they are purely machines.

In the movie they said the coolant wouldn't effect the materials of that world, you don't have a clue whether or not materials of the SG universe would be effected by that coolant, so as I said before you can not state that it would for sure.
Like I said before I'm not saying that the coolant would effect the reps , you need to prove that it wouldn't, since that coolant hasn't been used in SG against them you have no proof it would or wouldn't work, so please stop saying it's a fact that the reps wouldn't be effected by it, they're made of entirely different materials than those in Star Trek.

[boxdudea]

Anyone read the fanfiction at fanfiction.net called Destinys child? That is a fanfic about star trek ship comming into our universe to save Tollana or something and find there way back. I read it but the author made the Goauld way to weak. The Goauld weponry still uses wepons from the Romulan war and the Gouald could be destroyed by two photon torpedos.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Sounds like that author made the Goauld too strong to me.
Remember the Phase Cannons of the NX-01 enterprise could level a mountain on overload with two beams, a feat that could be reproduced later than the original firing attempt without too much damage.
A ship from say the original series or Kirk movie eras should be considerably more powerful.
Since weaponry from much later in the ST universe's time period should progressively improve a few decades should yield quite significant improvements.

Torpedos are always considered a more powerful weapon to phasers.

If the NX-01 can do something even Ori motherships have trouble achieving on a smaller mountain I think weapons from further in the future would easily penetrate Goauld shields and destroy a Ha'tak with a single torpedo, even from the original series.