Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[McAvoy]

If you have an issue with his calculators (and any other issues with him) then it's time you take your issues to him directly. There is another calculator (http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/ani...tellarlum.html), which I am attempting to get to grips with.

I think the second site will yield answers eventually, once I get to grips with it, but for now... it gets a Grrr rating.

Mike Wong has been adressed about this before. I don't think he has any intention of fixing/altering his calculators.

Could have, but there's no evidence that it did.

With that logic we can assume that the Royal Empire of Unicorns and Carebears are actually bombarding the Enterprise and not the sun. Just because we don't see them, doesn't mean those pesky carebears are shooting those deadly beams of rainbow energy.

You're assuming Worf didn't raise the shields prior to getting within range of potential flares- he simply says 'shields are up', not that he raised them that instant.

Uhhh.... it would make no sense for Worf to raise shields on his own and not tell anyone.

Yet we're supposed to accept that flares were a very real danger to the Enterprise, when the size of the Enterprise relative to even the star in Relics doesn't mean it'll be throwing flares toward the tiny area she occupies, yet we should completely discount this possibility with the Hatak, which spends longer near that star than the Enterprise spends near their star?

You are doing the same exact thing too. Are we supposed to disregard the idea that Worf says 'shields are up' because it might suggest that the Enterprise-D can withstand megaton level energy on her bare hull? Are going to disregard that this star is unstable and might be throwing much more energy than it should WITHIN A CONFINED SPACE? Think about that last one for a minute.

This is a double-standard Phoenix.

You are doing the same exact thing.


Lastly this is all academic when we have seen aging Klingon Bird of Preys within spitting distance of the surface of a star in the Dominion War. Yet they had issues with just the heat.

[darth_timon]

Mike Wong has been adressed about this before. I don't think he has any intention of fixing/altering his calculators.

And I love the assumption that because one calculator might have a problem, we are to throw out all the rest (along it seems, with his work)

With that logic we can assume that the Royal Empire of Unicorns and Carebears are actually bombarding the Enterprise and not the sun. Just because we don't see them, doesn't mean those pesky carebears are shooting those deadly beams of rainbow energy.

Assuming something should be happening and then using that as a basis for calculations without any proof is the root of bad science.

Uhhh.... it would make no sense for Worf to raise shields on his own and not tell anyone.

It would make even less sense to raise shields after reaching the star. Plus, Worf says 'shields are up', not 'I am raising shields'. The subtle implication? That shields are already up. Or perhaps they came up when the Enterprise was caught in the sphere's tractor beams. To assert be would need to wait for an order to raise them when heading straight toward a star makes no sense.

You are doing the same exact thing too. Are we supposed to disregard the idea that Worf says 'shields are up' because it might suggest that the Enterprise-D can withstand megaton level energy on her bare hull? Are going to disregard that this star is unstable and might be throwing much more energy than it should WITHIN A CONFINED SPACE? Think about that last one for a minute.

How exactly am I employing double standards? That's a nice statement without support (which really doesn't bode well). As for a confined space... yes, in the sphere, which was stated by Riker to have a circumference two thirds that of earth's orbit around the Sun. That's still a huge volume of space whatever you may think. Plus, as I explained to Phoenix, our Sun, at solar maximum, produces 20 or so flares a day, which are not all located on one region, and the sheer size of the star relative to the ship means these flares do not have to come even close to striking the ship. This is assuming the star in Relics was at solar maximum.

Finally, I've deliberately chosen the lowest possible luminosity and size for a blue giant star. The figures for the Hatak are

Lastly this is all academic when we have seen aging Klingon Bird of Preys within spitting distance of the surface of a star in the Dominion War. Yet they had issues with just the heat.

And the shields were letting energy through, which is why the temperature inside the ship was rising to uncomfortable levels. This does not help your position (especially seeing as the Bird of Prey wasn't spending hours and hours there- it had flown in to trigger a prominence big enough to destroy a ship yard, and they weren't there very long when they tried to do it).

[darth_timon]

I know the basics of thermodynamics and laws of energy.
I wasn't taking about creating fission in atoms, I have always talked about separating atoms from each other.
We're seeing proof of solid matter being turned to dust, there doesn't have to be a huge energy release, think about it like nanotech, separating the atoms from each other, quite simple really, ST weapons have to be affecting the bond between atoms, especially if they're not releasing masses of energy, it's far more efficient than a nuke or some nuclear reaction.

Just one thing from this Phoenix- if you're basically admitting there doesn't have to be a large energy release, doesn't this invalidate the idea that the TDIC event was done through direct energy transfer?

After all, had the fleet produced that sort of firepower, we would see fireballs, ejecta etc. We would also get mushroom clouds, which form in any large enough explosion, not just nuclear explosions. They are caused by a combination of materials being superheated, air pressure and the density (plus subsequent expansion) of the material swept into the atmosphere by the explosion. If what you are proposing is correct, and instead ST weapons are designed specifically not to release large amounts of energy... well, it might be 'efficient' but it's impossible to quantify the effects against an energy shield or starship materials.

[McAvoy]

Do you really want to me to break down every single post you have made to show that you are applying a double standard?

You have assumed the worse for Trek but assumed the best for Stargate. Go look back at your own posts.

[darth_timon]

If you're going to make the claim you can back it up. I don't 'assume' anything. Could the Enterprise easily destroy an ill-consolidated hollow asteroid in Pegasus? No. Are Federation and Federation-level ships destroyed or crippled by ramming in Tears of the Prophets? Yes. Does a slow collision in Nemesis knock out the Scimitar's shields? Yes. Does a weapon in the gigawatt range take out the shields and weapons of the Enterprise in Survivors? Yes. These are but some examples of poor Federation and Federation equivalent firepower, yet there is always an excuse for why they don't apply. Yet mentioning variable yields as a possibility for Hataks (which makes sense in light of their shield strength from Enemies) is derided as speculation, even though this is PRECISELY what happens with examples like CFOE, where we apparently have to consider anything other than the idea that the damage to Starfleet HQ was caused by ship weaponry.

[McAvoy]

If you're going to make the claim you can back it up. I don't 'assume' anything.

Yes you have. You assume the worse for Star Trek.

Could the Enterprise easily destroy an ill-consolidated hollow asteroid in Pegasus? No.

Another thing about this I explained a few pages ago but apparently listen on this. I am not going to repeat myself.

Are Federation and Federation-level ships destroyed or crippled by ramming in Tears of the Prophets?

Yet, there are multiple examples of ships in Trek being rammed and having no effect on them but a shield bubble glow.

"Datalore" A shield interaction against the Crystalline Entity produces a shield glow.

"The Hunted" A shield interaction against the escape pod produces a glow.

"Cause and Effect" A shield-free interaction produces no glow.

"Relics" A shield interaction against while being crushed produces a glow.

"A Call to Arms" DS9 took a direct collision with a Cardassian ship produced a glow.

"Sacrifice of Angels": A severely damaged Bird of Prey rams into a Dominion battlecruiser produces no glow.

"Tears of the Prophets" The only clear example of a ship being rammed by another ship with full shields against another ship with full shields.

In the same episode a damaged BoP rammed a orbtial defense platform with a visible shield glow.

Star Trek: Nemesis: The Enterprise took a direct hit by one of the Romulan warbirds with a visible glow.

Yes. Does a slow collision in Nemesis knock out the Scimitar's shields? Yes.

See this is assuming. Prove to me that 70% shields included in the front as well.

Yet mentioning variable yields as a possibility for Hataks (which makes sense in light of their shield strength from Enemies) is derided as speculation, even though this is PRECISELY what happens with examples like CFOE, where we apparently have to consider anything other than the idea that the damage to Starfleet HQ was caused by ship weaponry.

Interesting. This is called cherry picking. Both shows show inconsistent firepower levels yet you want to choose the best for Stargate and the worse for Star Trek. Yet there are far more examples of higher firepower in Trek than Stargate.

[darth_timon]

Yes you have. You assume the worse for Star Trek.

No, I don't. I take the evidence in it's entirety.

Yet, there are multiple examples of ships in Trek being rammed and having no effect on them but a shield bubble glow.

"Datalore" A shield interaction against the Crystalline Entity produces a shield glow.

A slow interaction, hardly in the same league as a ship ramming another ship.

"The Hunted" A shield interaction against the escape pod produces a glow.

An escape pod is hardly in the same league as a ship.

"Cause and Effect" A shield-free interaction produces no glow.

Well, if the shields weren't up there wouldn't be a glow, would there? And this low-speed collision was capable of causing enough damage that the Enterprise wound up being destroyed!

"Relics" A shield interaction against while being crushed produces a glow.

Whilst it was a constant pressure, it wasn't the sudden application of energy a collision would bring.

"A Call to Arms" DS9 took a direct collision with a Cardassian ship produced a glow.

Deep Space Nine is a space station capable of fighting multiple ships at once, so it would stand to reason it would whether more. Plus, it was hardly a fast collision.

"Sacrifice of Angels": A severely damaged Bird of Prey rams into a Dominion battlecruiser produces no glow.

Yet the Dominion vessel is destroyed. This massive cruiser's shields were taken out a small Bird of Prey colliding with it.

"Tears of the Prophets" The only clear example of a ship being rammed by another ship with full shields against another ship with full shields.

And yet both the Jem'Hadar ships and Klingon ships were destroyed when the Jem'Hadar rammed the Klingons.

In the same episode a damaged BoP rammed a orbtial defense platform with a visible shield glow.

And the weapons platforms were receiving their power from a central source. It's noteworthy that it took several torpedoes and phaser bursts to destroy these platforms when they were without shields.

Star Trek: Nemesis: The Enterprise took a direct hit by one of the Romulan warbirds with a visible glow.

Are you by chance referring to when a piece of debris from one of the warbirds strikes the Enterprise's forward shields, and they are reduced to 10%?

[quote]See this is assuming. Prove to me that 70% shields included in the front as well. [quote]

Does it matter if their forward shields were 70%, or 10%? (and prove they were weak). I've seen various arguments suggesting multi-gigaton shielding and weaponry for Federation and Federation equivalent ships, so a collision that isn't anywhere near this should not have breached the Scimitar's shields, even they were as low as 10%.

Interesting. This is called cherry picking. Both shows show inconsistent firepower levels yet you want to choose the best for Stargate and the worse for Star Trek. Yet there are far more examples of higher firepower in Trek than Stargate.

No, I see to explain why we see low firepower in Star Trek and Stargate- to find justifications for it. There can be no justification for not taking advantage of a chance to destroy your enemy's HQ, despite all the speculation that there may have been away teams and whatnot (which there is zero evidence for).

I'm going to assume that your asteroid argument is this, as you are unwilling to reproduce it:

Voyager episode Rise they were trying to destroy asteroids that were falling into a planet they were trying to save. Voyager expected to vaporize them with a single photon torpedo but somehow fragmented. The size of the asteroid is estimated to be about 200+ meters long. A low end figure to destroy such an asteroid would be around 150+ megatons.

TNG Cost of Living. They destroyed a very large asteroid with a dense core. It took two torpedos at the same time to fragment it into very small pieces.

RE Rise, they actually expected to fragment the asteroid, and could even predict how big the fragments would be! Furthermore, they weren't able to properly destroy an asteroid that Chakotay could use a pickaxe to crack open a part of!

RE Cost of Living, I happen to have a quote from the episode:

(chasing an asteroid)

DATA: It is of sufficient size and density to cause planetwide damage.

PICARD: Time to impact.

DATA: It will reach the upper atmosphere in forty-four seconds and impact with the planet eleven seconds later.

RIKER: Ready torpedoes.

DATA: Sir, the core is composed of densely compressed nitrium and chrondite. It is unlikely that another photon torpedo will have any effect on it.

...

WORF: Sir, I cannot get a positive lock with the tractor beam. There is magnetic field interference emanating from the core materials.

PICARD: Suggestions?

DATA: If we project a particle beam through the deflector  dish, we may be able to produce a disruptive nuclear effect in the core.

So, if this is the scene you are referring to, no,they could not destroy the asteroid, and had to resort to a trick to destroy it.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

If you have an issue with his calculators (and any other issues with him) then it's time you take your issues to him directly. There is another calculator (http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/ani...tellarlum.html), which I am attempting to get to grips with.

I think the second site will yield answers eventually, once I get to grips with it, but for now... it gets a Grrr rating.

You're the one using it to try and prove your point.
I post on Gateworld, I don't post on any other sci-fi sites but considering how rude he is to the people he argues against I can't be bothered to deal with such a stuborn and ignorant person.

Could have, but there's no evidence that it did.

The flares are the only change in the activity of the Star mentioned or shown by events in that episode, they are the only possible explaination for any change the Enterprise faces being near the photosphere.
We can see that flare on the view screen, we see how high it shot plasma into the corona and we see that it is still very much active.
You agree that it could have and considering there's nothing else present n this situation that could effect the Enterprise with turbulance means the Flares are the only possibile explanation for why the Enterprise was being knocked around in a similar fashion to when it's struck by weapons fire.
Flares are the only possibility, they are the cause of damage to the shields, whether direct or indirect and if you disagree you are ignoring the only proof from the one piece of evidence this episode presents.

You're assuming Worf didn't raise the shields prior to getting within range of potential flares- he simply says 'shields are up', not that he raised them that instant.

Prior to this no one mentions the shields.
Prior to this there was nothing that was stated to threaten the ship.
Prior to this and after being tractored into the sphere the enterprise was operating with limited power.
Shields up and the sound effect the systems make means they have been raised at that moment, it's what the evidence shows.

The simple fact remains that the star's output was not significantly more than it's normal state,

So now you know what happened before this episode?
That's a bit of a suspect thing to claim.

as we see liquid water and vegetation on the inside of the sphere.

Water evaporates and reforms back into water molicules all the time.
As long as the water is still present in some form it could become oceans again and we have no knowledge of what technologies exist on the surface of the sphere, it could easily have systems that automatically repair the surface habitat after damage has been done.

If the star were much beyond it's normal levels, that vegetation and water would be gone (and yes, I know you might argue 'forcefields protect the surface', but this beggars the question of why anyone would abandon a perfectly habitable sphere capable of supporting a huge population).

As I pointed out above the habitat could have repair it's inner suface and could have recently finished repairing after previous damage from the star.

Data said the star was entering a period of increased activity, but our own sun does this all the time, in cycles.

The sphere locks all of the radiant energy inside of it's shell, this could mean massive energy or heat build up.
Our star sends a lot more energy to other parts of the solar system then is sent to Earth.
The sphere covered every side the star would be active on, this means that whenever a powerful flare or cme is fired out from the star it'll be sent towards the sphere's inner surface.

Except of course, that we still have no direct evidence for lots of flares.

We only ever saw a few short scenes of the actual star.
The Enterprise filmed one pretty large one on it's veiwscreen that we did see.
The Enterprise was being constantly buffeted once the harsh weather kicks in, this indicates increased solar weather, far beyond the normal stable weather it faced when it arrived and had no shields raised, it had to be facing far more energy than your calculations showed.

Plus, what is the frequency of these flares? The size? Even at solar maximum, our own, larger, more powerful star produces 20 solar flares a day, which will not be concentrated on any specific region of the star. These flares also only last for minutes at most. They disperse as they move out and become less concentrated.

You have no evidence our star is larger than the one in Relics.
Considering any member of the Enterprise saw fit to mention them at all they must have been a consern that couldn't be avoided.
The fact that the flares were mentioned means there must have been a pretty high possibility that they could have hit the Enterprise at some point.
The fact that the Enterprise shows no effects of being hit by anything when it arrives and there was apparently normal weather means that something from the flares interactions with the surrounding space must have been striking the Enterprise's.

So it could easily be two glancing blows, and perhaps even then, only dealing with the after effects.

After effects or glancing blows would put the amount of impact the Enterprise is taking to it's shields at gigaton levels, per flare or plasma flooding the general space.
After effects would linger for far longer than the flare rising up and then when the flare crashes down into the photosphere it'll spread more plasma drops which have to strike the shields, this it'd massively amp up the amount of energy striking the shields of the Enterprise.

And you're right, taking many flares would indeed by far out of sync with our examples.

You realise I was talking about the large ones and not tiny ones?
Considering a warbird can blast off 3% of a planet's crust with it's opening volley and the Enterprise D can take that I'd say the equivalent of 100 gigatons worth wouldn't be unbelievable, even glancing blows of mid sized flare strikes would take far more than 2 to down a shields that can take that.

Just like there's no evidence for a constant bombardment from flares, or even a single direct hit.

Flares had to be constantly fired by the star for the Enterprise to be dealing with constant turbulance once the extra solar activity kicked in, if they weren't (and considering they were the only major change mentioned by any member of the crew) what else would be the cause of the turbulance the Enterprse was fealing?

Plus, if they could turn the ship enough to get into orbit, they could conceivably move the ship enough to avoid flares, especially given that with our ability to predict them today,

It took digging into auxiliary power to actually turn the ship into orbit, it'd take time to recharge power reserves to any level and considering a star produces masses more gravity than Earth if the Enterprise took power from systems to keep altitude it'd be pulled into the star

they could be better at it in the 24th Century, don't you think?

So now you're starting to admit that technology and general science will have to improve in the future?
Funny that, considering you wouldn't even entertain the possibility when it was argued that the Federation or similar powers of their level would find it easier to make working hyperdrives than 20th-21st century Earth.

You're assuming these would be close to the Enterprise, which they may not have been.

The blobs of plasma would have to be, they'd be thrown all over the surface of the star that they were ejected from, flares would have to be close enough to touch the shields for them to be a big enough concern to be mentioned by the tactical officer.
Point here is something from the flare has to be effecting the ship, if pulses, beams and torpedoes cause the ship to be rocked like an earth quake then something in the local space near the ship is striking the shields, if it's not flares then it's some byproduct of their presence, this would have to be more powerful than the basic output of energy from the star.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

So the star suddenly enters into a much more active state just as the Enterprise arrives? And I've already explained that Worf's statement could easily be interpreted to mean the shields were already up.

It was stated that there was a magnetic disturbance which turned out to be a flare and as we saw it was a large flare, from visuals it looked like a CME.
Worf's statement cannot mean the shields were already up, because it is the first statement to say shields are up.
You think that Captain picard would ask if shields are up when he would have to be informed of anything that could threaten the ship?

The captain of each ship in Star Trek is always notified when dangerous situation arise, it always happens and this scene in relics is the moment when the Star begins to become dangerous, like it or not the Enterprise didn't have it's shields raised until that moment.

Yet we're supposed to accept that flares were a very real danger to the Enterprise, when the size of the Enterprise relative to even the star in Relics doesn't mean it'll be throwing flares toward the tiny area she occupies, yet we should completely discount this possibility with the Hatak, which spends longer near that star than the Enterprise spends near their star

Everyone should accept what the evidence we're shown or told tells us.
Nothing indicates that there were flares or anything other than regular output of the Blue Giant in Enemies.
It's clear the Enterprise is closer to it's star than the Ha'Tak was to it's one, it's stated and shown the Enterprise is 150,000 kms from a star that is producing flares, no piece of evidence indicates the Ha'Tak had to deal with flares and if flares were an issue then it would have had time to react, given that it had to be more than a million kms from the photospherem like it or not these are the facts.

This is a double-standard Phoenix. You want us, without direct proof, visual or otherwise, to accept the very real possibility that the Enterprise was hit by at least one flare.

It's not a double standard, because there are no flares or any extra harsh weather mentioned or shown at all in Enemies, this is a fact.
We are told flares are forming, there would be no reason to mention them at all if they were no issue for the Enterprise.
No evasive maneuvers are mentioned because power has already been used to prevent the death of the ship.
I've given visual proof, the viewscreen shows waves of plasma right in fron of the ship, we see waves of plasma striking the shields, we're told that flares are forming and this coincides with the shields being raised, to ask for more evidence is to be completely unreasonable.
It's clear the Enterprise was in a far more severe situation than the Ha'Tak was in.

Yet, in the same circumstances, you won't allow for the possibility of the Hatak sustaining the same thing, even though it was near an inherently more unstable star, which is more prone to ejecta than even our own star at solar maximum?

How are these the same circumstances?
They are not, no activity is present in the Enemies star, it just isn't stated or shown, you have to invent something to up the situation the Ha'tak was in.
Your only argument is invention, when there is no evidence whatsoever that anything such thing was happening around the Ha'Tak, there was for the Enterprise.

If you'd looked at the transcript then you'd have read the part where Mckay says the CME dwarfs anything our own star has produced. Typical Sol CMEs are the equivalent of 160E9MT. This one was bigger, and the Daedalus faced it head on. Even 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% is 158,400MT, or 158GT, and this is using a Sol CME as a guideline, let alone the one from Echos, which was specifically stated to be more powerful.

Obviously I did see the transcript, don't be so rude as to accuse me of not looking.
Mckay was actually talking about what he assumed the CME would be, the CME was tiny considering it could actually be deflected by something the width of a 304.
Hell the CME I showed you was wider than the Earth so Rodney's comment was just plain wrong and obviously written to make that episode seem more dramatic.
The fact that Daedalus could deflect this cme proves it's no larger than a tiny flare, tbh you couldn't get a smaller mass ejection, mass ejection is actually the wrong description for that solar ejection considering it's size.

Indeed, but as I pointed out above, even 0.001% of that is staggering, and that's using a Sol CME for a conservative lower limit.

This ejection in Echoes was small enough to be deflected by a 304's shields, this alone proves that it is too small to be classed as a Coronal Mass Ejection, a solar prominance or flare would be about that size.

I'll try and find out.

Let me know on here if you find one.

Can we at least agree that the Hatak would have absorbed a lot more energy than you've previously given them credit for, based on what it did in Enemies?

I go off of the evidence.
I give credit where it's due.
Multiple Ha'Taks brought down Anubis's shields and with enough firepower to destroy a building per shot, yes those shields were at a reduced level but it's not like I've been arguing one shot did it, there were multiple shots per Ha'Tak striking the shield.
We see that kind of firepower downing Ha'Tak shields in pretty much every shot of them in battle.

If it's 81.6megatons downing the shields gradually over each of the ten hours it's in the star, then 1.36 megatons is in contact with the shields for every minute or 0.0226666666666667 megatons every second, that's over a long period of time, so more fire power over a shorter time period would be a completely different type of impact, the two situations aren't really comparable, but this is also more firepower than is displayed against regular Ha'Taks, so it doesn't really fit with the regular evidence, maybe on a par with Anubis's Ha'Tak in space, but that doesn't make sense for regular Ha'Taks from lower level System Lords.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

And I love the assumption that because one calculator might have a problem, we are to throw out all the rest (along it seems, with his work)

It actually would make sense to not take his tools as accurate considering one isn't and he doesn't take all valid evidence into consideration.

Assuming something should be happening and then using that as a basis for calculations without any proof is the root of bad science.

Assuming flares and their byproducts aren't there and ruling them out because you only have one set of figures is also bad science.
You're assuming that the only thing effecting the Enterprise's shields is the basic solar energy produced by the star under it's lowest possible output period, this disregards factors that have to effect the situation.

It would make even less sense to raise shields after reaching the star. Plus, Worf says 'shields are up', not 'I am raising shields'. The subtle implication? That shields are already up. Or perhaps they came up when the Enterprise was caught in the sphere's tractor beams. To assert be would need to wait for an order to raise them when heading straight toward a star makes no sense.

I doubt Picard would have forgotten if the shields were raised as they enterered the Corona.
Shields don't come up on their own, not the full shell deflection system that surrounds the ship.
We only have one piece of evidence for the shields being raised and that's when Picard asks Worf "shields?", he's asking Worf to raised the shields, it can't be seen any other way, if the shields had been raised prior to this question Picard would have been told by somebody that they'd raised the shields, the fact he didn't know means that he wasn't made aware that they were raised and it would be impossible that somebody as professional as the crew of the bridge wouldn't report such important activity happening on the bridge.
The idea that Picard wouldn't know the shields were up is ridiculous.

How exactly am I employing double standards?

You're entertaining something that is neither stated or shown, there's no evidence that the star in enemies was producing anything besides normal solar energy near the Ha'Tak, if it had been then it would have been mentioned because it would have been an issue for the ship.
If something isn't stated or mentioned to be happening near the ship then it's not happening.

That's a nice statement without support (which really doesn't bode well).

Well I had already pointed out certain facts, so I don't think McAvoy needed to reitterate things that have been mentioned before.

As for a confined space... yes, in the sphere, which was stated by Riker to have a circumference two thirds that of earth's orbit around the Sun. That's still a huge volume of space whatever you may think. Plus, as I explained to Phoenix, our Sun, at solar maximum, produces 20 or so flares a day, which are not all located on one region, and the sheer size of the star relative to the ship means these flares do not have to come even close to striking the ship. This is assuming the star in Relics was at solar maximum.

We're talking about all of the radient energy in terms of heat, radiation and everything produced by the star being contained within the habitable or hot zone of a star system.
Build up alone with no apparent place to vent besides the odd opening of a tiny hatch wouldn't really allow the heat inside of the sphere to go anywhere.

If you put a small fire inside of a room it'd get pretty hot pretty soon.

Finally, I've deliberately chosen the lowest possible luminosity and size for a blue giant star. The figures for the Hatak are

So, considering the extra effects of the Relics star as I've proven the Enterprise would be withstanding far more powerful impacts to it's shields and these actually fit in with many high yield events in Star Trek.
This one event in Enemies doesn't fit with anything else in SG, at best it's a wildly over the top upper limit for stargate, that still doesn't challenge the weakest of events in ST.

And the shields were letting energy through, which is why the temperature inside the ship was rising to uncomfortable levels. This does not help your position (especially seeing as the Bird of Prey wasn't spending hours and hours there- it had flown in to trigger a prominence big enough to destroy a ship yard, and they weren't there very long when they tried to do it).

BOP shields aren't in anywhere the same league as a Galaxy class starship or even older ships like Excelsiors.
I don't personally recall in detail the events of that episode.

[darth_timon]

I can only reply to one part of this now. You assert that Mike Wong is stubborn and ignorant. Prove it. Show his site to be wrong. Email him with your comprehensive reasons.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I can only reply to one part of this now. You assert that Mike Wong is stubborn and ignorant. Prove it. Show his site to be wrong. Email him with your comprehensive reasons.

He can post here if he wants to, you can let him know if you feel the need to.
I've proven within this thread that his calculator is wrong, so has Tetsujin, when we were talking about yields of the Tsar bomb.
That calculator gave completely wrong figures for the fireball size of a Tsar bomb given it's 50 megaton yield.

He only mentions the flares in Relics in passing and like you he only takes regular solar energy produced by the star into consideration, not very scientific as you have claimed him to be numerous times.

I'm sure there are numerous other errors, but tbh I can't be bothered to study his site, why should I waste my time when he hasn't listened to numerous people's replies!
I've given masses of examples of superior firepower evidence within this thread to Stargate, I'm not talking about star wars and that's what he argues about.

By the looks of his site he hasn't even been on there in over a year, I doubt he even bothers with it any more.


BTW I have looked over some of the replies Mike Wong has written to people and it took all of 5 minutes reading to see he'd sworn at people, perfectly reasoned arguments from numerous emails he received were mocked and stated to be completely wrong with nothing but opinion and no evidence to back it up, I can't be bothered to deal with a person like that.

Like I said if you got him to post on here I'd reply to him as I've done to you.
He'd have to bite his tounge and watch that he didn't sware at gateworlders though.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I have now found conclusive proof that the Enterprise had to be surrounded by plasma in Relics.

Check out the viewscreen shot at 34:16 and again at 34:39 into the episode, we can clearly see multiple flares and the photosphere.

Later at 36:40 nothing besides thick plasma can be seen on the viewscreen, meaning they had to be inside of a wide jet of plasma.

Looking at the first two scenes mentioned above it becomes apparent that either the Enterprise is moving towards the large flare or (and which would seem more likely considering that the Enterprise expended most of it's power just obtaining an orbit with the Star) the sun's gravity and motion have moved a flare into the Enterprise's path, with the latter scene at 36:40 like I said we see nothing besides plasma, neither Picard or Riker has asked for the image to be magnified, so that leaves only one possibility that the Enterprise must indeed be sitting inside of a plasma cloud that has ingulfed the ship.

Considering the thickness of the largest flare that was in the path of the Enterprise the ship has to be ingulfed by that flare, this is corroborated by the rocking of the ship.

[darth_timon]

You know what? This is getting very confusing- the same topic spread across three or four different messages. It's making my eyes hurt. And making me need to pee.

[qingbest]

I must agree can you please merge your post into one please