Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[darth_timon]

Like I said before it would be a great loss if technologies were brought up to the best classes on each side. While the Soliton wave was not used as a weapon during the dominion war it is a viable weapon if we are going to get rid off all philosophical and political limitations of ST, and we would have to in all fairness since you propose eliminating and/or ignoring the political and philosophical limitations of the Goa'uld. That would mean the ST races could employ subspace weapons, federation ships could cloak, and the soliton wave or any other massively destructive ST weapon could be employed to destroy the Goa'uld worlds and bases.

I'm not actually suggesting to eliminate the normal fighting approach of the Goa'uld. The System Lords have been seen to work together against a common enemy (Anubis), and they cooperate as far as maintaining their reputation as gods goes, so having them ally together against a threat to them all ties in with what we have seen. The Federation probably would call upon their Klingon allies as well, and as for the Romulans, Dominion etc- well, that depends. If we got down to the nitty gritty, we could say that some of the Federation's enemies might even ally with the Goa'uld, and the Asgard would join on the side of the Federation, and it would get horribly complicated.

As far as superweapons go, if we are to assume that they would be used, then the Goa'uld get theirs as well. We've seen them plant bombs into kids, plant bio-weapons into kids, and we've seen bombs implode planets, and we've even seen stargates used to make stars go supernova.

I assumed it was just going to be just SF versus the Goa'uld at this point since going any further would just compound the issues. Even if we did enter all races from both sides, there would be races that would obviously have to be excluded such as the Ori. Asgard and Lanteans would be more fair but definitely not the Ori since ascended knowledge and help would be like cheating.

I agree that Federation v Goa'uld is the most straightforward way to go.

Hyperdrive is limited to 32,000c for all Ha'tak class vessels and faster only for motherships since there has been no indication of a standard Ha'tak going any faster. While definately faster than a standard warp capable ship the most advanced federation ships are able to employ quantum slipstream drives which are much faster than most Goa'uld hyperdrives and have been shown to reach speeds of over 1 million c. Prometheus, Soverign, Intrepid(probably with tweaking to the SIF and hull), Vesta, and maybe others, are all able to employ slipstream drives which would turn the tables and put the Goa'uld on the defensive as far as fleet movements are concerned.

Actually, quantum slipstream is not in use by Federation vessels- The E-E didn't have one in Nemesis, and Voyager could only use one briefly before the ship starting to suffer structural damage. It is not a standard issue system on Federation craft. With just standard warp drive, it is the Federation who will be effectively pinned down in their own territory.

Even if we dont take into account technology stealing and the superweapons ST possesses. Logical military strategy would force the ST side into defending at best possible effectiveness which would probably leave a good portion of colonies and world almost completely undefended asside from planetary shield grids and orbital weapons platforms, but leave actually defended worlds near untouchable due to the sheer number of ships and then attacks to Goa'uld worlds would be staged from there.

The effect on morale of having so many smaller colonies destroyed would be devastating on Federation citizens, especially for citizens living on such worlds, where the threat would be high.

And sure, the Federation can concentrate its fleet at key worlds, but if they then use those worlds as staging areas to attack from, they're reducing their strength in those systems! By the time they are halfway to a Goa'uld world, the Goa'uld could have attacked a target, and then withdrawn back to their own territory.

[darth_timon]

I still think one on one would be easier. Also my reference to data should pretty much solidify my viewpoint of not taking on screen events at face value at all times. If you are formulating a response to my post about data then I await it. Otherwise it kinda is just sitting there eating away at the foundation of suspending disbelief only.

It does nothing of the sort, because you're misrepresenting the suspension of belief principle. We never see Data perform half the feats you credit him with- in fact, I recall a Season 7 episode of TNG where he was run through with a pitchfork and disabled! So much for resilience and strength!

[darth_timon]

Hope you've enjoyed it.

I wouldn't mind agreeing with the whole level pegging fire power thing if we didn't have a clear example of a much older and much less advanced (than the more modern SF vessels) ST ship doing something that's not been witnessed in SG.
IMO such an ST ship would probably be level with a Ha'Tak, maybe behind because of the lack of shields, though the polarized hull does hold off (to a degree) weapons from the Klingons, Xindi, etc.
Too me it just seems ridiculous to assume the Star Trek side (if we're dealing with 24th century starfleet vessels) being that handicapped.
You say the discussion of firepower is going nowhere, in reality we've reached a pretty clear conclusion that Star Trek is far beyond Stargate, the only unknown is just how far ahead Star Trek is to Stargate?

I have to disagree. Every bit of visual evidence does not come close to supporting high firepower for Trek- the best we have is kiloton level firepower, which even by today's standards, is nothing. On the SG side, we have multi-gigaton nuclear weapons being thrown around by the Tauri, and supporting evidence to suggest multi-megaton weaponry for Hataks. We have references to Sokar's bombardment of Netu to release huge floods of lava across the surface. We have Carter's statement of 200MT. We have Beach Head's figures, which even at their lowest, still support high MT output per minute for a Hatak. However, we are coming at this in two different ways, leading to two totally different conclusions, and as we cannot agree, that is why I proposing to drop the firepower debate. You consider it to be unfair to Trek; I consider it unfair on Gate. We can at least agree that it's unfair on someone!

(That curry last night... in hindsight, the lamb could have been cooked more).

BTW I'm all for discussing strategy, so long as we have a fair and realistic (to the canon of each show) base to work from.

I wasn't necessarily saying we had to use the Borg or even the Dominion for that matter.
TBH I don't see the Dominion getting envolved unless the Goauld threatened their territory, unless the Goauld made themselves aware to the Borg I don't think the Borg would be doing much to the Goauld.
The Klingons are a major ally to the federation and the federation would call on them if they felt it necessary in the STverse.
I don't know how in a scenario where the federation (for some unknown reason) is living in the SG verse's Milky Way they would have gone unnoticed by the Goauld, unless we forget Earth as we know it (as the Tau'ri, since it's unlikely they'd battle a group such as the federation, because of a common enemy) existing in the SGverse and just had a future where Earth has developed unhindered in the usual ST manner, with the Vulcans and every regular Federation member, the other races like the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc don't exist.

That's more or less what I'm proposing, whether it be set in either verse, for whatever reason, it's just the Goa'uld and the Federation going at it.

Like I said before thousands of years ago the Goauld removed all Stargates.
The Ancients were already gone before the Goauld came about as a power in the galaxy.
I find it unlikely races such as the Asgard, Nox, Tollans would have fought the federation because they're peaceful groups, I would believe however that in this scenario (SF based in the SGverse) that the federation basically takes the place of Earth and does what Earth and the Jaffa does and tries to free the galaxy, only maybe territories aren't galaxy wide.

I can agree with this. The Ancients for one would certainly aid the Federation, and so would the Asgard.

I think the federation has colonies that are only inhabited by a few hundred people, races that joined are probably comparable to Earth having billions of people on each of those worlds, probably with some having millions of people on them, I believe by the late 24th century there were over a hundred members in the federation (please correct me if I'm wrong here) so those worlds would probably be defended heavily, science outposts or research bases would be pretty open, any important strategic points would likely have shields and weapons, if not when the first attacks happen once a war breaks out.

I think the Federation has 150 member worlds, as per First Contact. Some of these worlds are certainly fortified, although some it would seem, are mor vulnerable- Betazed was conquered by the Dominion, and was even said in that same DS9 episode to have defences that were years out of date. This was a conventional attack by opposition with ships of comparable speed, so the much faster Goa'uld could easily attack a world like Betazed without fear of interception or reprisal, as they could withdraw again to their own territory before the Federation could easily respond.

The larger fleets of the federation would be covering the main member worlds and probably committing huge numbers to target Goauld ship production facilities.
With any shortcomings in terms of speed I think the first thing the federation is gonna do is steal something as low risk as possible like a cargo ship and reverse engineer it's hyperdrive, so the whole thing of speed isn't always gonna be an advantage for the Goauld, either that or transwarp will be researched further.[/QUOTE]

This assumes that the Federation can easily reproduce hyperdrive. Plus, the Goa'uld could be sending spies the other way for their own technology thefts, and Federation shipyards would probably be high on the Goa'uld hit list.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I have to disagree. Every bit of visual evidence does not come close to supporting high firepower for Trek- the best we have is kiloton level firepower, which even by today's standards, is nothing.

I thought you may.
"Every bit" is a major overstatement, unless you've forgotten the last few pages of this discussion then you know we've pinned down both visual and diologue proof that the very first warp capable Earth starship was capable of leveling a mountain, a mountain that's larger than Cheyenne.
We have diologue examples of powerful weapons namely The Die Is Cast, Living Witness.

On the SG side, we have multi-gigaton nuclear weapons being thrown around by the Tauri, and supporting evidence to suggest multi-megaton weaponry for Hataks.

You act like the federation couldn't make such Nukes if they used old 21st century technology and tacked on Naquadah like the Tauri has done.
Has the yield for run of the mill Goauld pulse cannons ever been stated?
I certainly can't recall it being stated, we certainly have no visual examples of the pulse cannons firing off megaton or even kiloton shots for that matter.

We have references to Sokar's bombardment of Netu to release huge floods of lava across the surface.

A reference that never states exactly how many ships were used or how long that took to achieve.

We have Carter's statement of 200MT.

She doesn't state these shots are the Goauld's pulse weapons, we never see visuals or any diologue that supports these shots as being a fast fire weapon or something the Goauld can use in anywhere but the alt reality Daniel visited, there's no proof this is common to that Daniel's home reality.

We have Beach Head's figures, which even at their lowest, still support high MT output per minute for a Hatak.

Any figures relating to Beach Head have no basis in fact since we have no idea how large the planet was or what the Mark 9's yield was, so we know absolutely nothing accept for the Mark 9 being a "mulit gigaton level explosion", we don't know how many gigatons this was and that is the truth.

However, we are coming at this in two different ways, leading to two totally different conclusions, and as we cannot agree, that is why I proposing to drop the firepower debate. You consider it to be unfair to Trek; I consider it unfair on Gate. We can at least agree that it's unfair on someone!

It's only unfair if we were to ommit the canon of each show.
When you have no concrete facts with which to base your view point on it would be entirely unfair to just state a random figure for your side of the discussion.
Star Trek has a concrete starting point, with visual and diologue evidence that proves stronger firepower than your diologue example of SG1, it's constantly referenced in ST that newer vessels out match older ones and we have several generations of ST ships along with diologue supporting planet denting power.

(That curry last night... in hindsight, the lamb could have been cooked more).

Hope you're ok dude and anyone else who was eating it.

That's more or less what I'm proposing, whether it be set in either verse, for whatever reason, it's just the Goa'uld and the Federation going at it.

Got it.

SNIP

I think the Federation has 150 member worlds, as per First Contact. Some of these worlds are certainly fortified, although some it would seem, are mor vulnerable- Betazed was conquered by the Dominion, and was even said in that same DS9 episode to have defences that were years out of date. This was a conventional attack by opposition with ships of comparable speed, so the much faster Goa'uld could easily attack a world like Betazed without fear of interception or reprisal, as they could withdraw again to their own territory before the Federation could easily respond.

The Goauld may be able to attack Federation member worlds, whether they would cause any significant damage is another matter.

This assumes that the Federation can easily reproduce hyperdrive. Plus, the Goa'uld could be sending spies the other way for their own technology thefts, and Federation shipyards would probably be high on the Goa'uld hit list.

I don't see reverse engineering as a problem for the federation, or modifying their propulsion to work in Hyperspace, we've seen variations on those kinds of technologies in the STverse, so it is possible.
Like I said before if you open up one group to being able to copy the other side's tech then you have to do the same for both it's that simple.
Since I think ST is superior in defensive and offensive technologies (when it comes to ship based weapons or general common tech such as SGs plasma weapons, STs Phasers, Torpedoes, etc and shields for both) to SG I think getting hold of a hyperdrive capable ship is gonna be easier for them, seems kinda obvious this would be the case with the evidence we have.

[Tetsujin]

I'm not actually suggesting to eliminate the normal fighting approach of the Goa'uld. The System Lords have been seen to work together against a common enemy (Anubis), and they cooperate as far as maintaining their reputation as gods goes, so having them ally together against a threat to them all ties in with what we have seen. The Federation probably would call upon their Klingon allies as well, and as for the Romulans, Dominion etc- well, that depends. If we got down to the nitty gritty, we could say that some of the Federation's enemies might even ally with the Goa'uld, and the Asgard would join on the side of the Federation, and it would get horribly complicated.

I am not talking about fighting approach. We have also seen them work together barely, with still much dissension, treachery, and opportunism going on. I stated that if political attacks can not be used to weaken the Goa'uld position, then political limitations(restrictions on weapons and technologies in existence) can not be used to weaken the federations position. This has nothing to to will calling for help on either side.

As far as superweapons go, if we are to assume that they would be used, then the Goa'uld get theirs as well. We've seen them plant bombs into kids, plant bio-weapons into kids, and we've seen bombs implode planets, and we've even seen stargates used to make stars go supernova.

What superweapons do the Goa'uld have exactly? Yes we have seen a few of these things..I dont quite remember the planet implosion part. Stargate anything doesnt count as a Goa'uld weapon since is not a technology they can create or even largely manipulate not would they exist in this proposed world since on the Goa'uld, their technology, and minerals required by them. If the Goa'uld can use stargate then SF can use Iconian Gateways. The bio-weapons and bomb in people can be done by ST as well so its not really a Goa'uld exclusive. Its actually generic terrorist tactics.

Actually, quantum slipstream is not in use by Federation vessels- The E-E didn't have one in Nemesis, and Voyager could only use one briefly before the ship starting to suffer structural damage. It is not a standard issue system on Federation craft. With just standard warp drive, it is the Federation who will be effectively pinned down in their own territory.

Yes the Enterprise E a single ship in the fleet was not shown to posses the technology. Also ships of the Vesta class which contained the drive was not rolled out until a year after Nemesis, so installation on other ships would logically come after that as well. Voyager used the first drive for a limited duration because Voyagers hull could not take the strain, however Sovereign, Prometheus, and Defiant class ships, have stronger hulls and structural integrity fields than the intrepid class allowing them to take more strain on the hull undamaged. Also Voyager herself was one of the ships later equipped with the drive so they must have fixed what ever problem there was. Even if they were pinned down the Goa'uld still have to deal with massive numbers,

The effect on morale of having so many smaller colonies destroyed would be devastating on Federation citizens, especially for citizens living on such worlds, where the threat would be high.

And sure, the Federation can concentrate its fleet at key worlds, but if they then use those worlds as staging areas to attack from, they're reducing their strength in those systems! By the time they are halfway to a Goa'uld world, the Goa'uld could have attacked a target, and then withdrawn back to their own territory.

The effect of outlying small colonies being destroyed would not be so detrimental to morale as you thing. If we were at war and I named some random rural towns that no one has ever heard of and said our enemy destroyed them, it would be sad but in the long run it really wouldnt be an issue militarily. Also the first thing done would be to start evacuating to stronghold systems.
Wait how would having many ships in a system reduce that systems protection. Random ships wouldnt do random thing all at once we are not all going to reload during a gunfight at the same time, thats military strategy 101. With the numbers difference, the federation could have numbers that rival the entire Goa'uld fleet protecting a single world, and still have large numbers of ships equivilent to a large chunk of the Goauld fleet in other places. Having said this I believe the numbers are so much higher than the Goa'uld they could effectively attack and defend simultaneously

It does nothing of the sort, because you're misrepresenting the suspension of belief principle. We never see Data perform half the feats you credit him with- in fact, I recall a Season 7 episode of TNG where he was run through with a pitchfork and disabled! So much for resilience and strength!

I am not misrepresenting anything. Data's overall abilities are canon fact. He is many times stronger, faster, and more durable than a normal human. There have been many episodes where he has showcased superhuman strength and speed, but only while doing something menial which is why suspending disbelief can be completely flawed since why wouldnt he use his full strength and speed in combat. Also he is an android so why isnt his aim near perfect. All of what I said about him is seen in episode and is not me just saying it.

Read up on Data an my point will be made abundantly clear. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Data

Also explain how klingons, Jem'hadar, and Vulcans are supposed to me many times more physically capable than humans but all can be beaten up by an average joe on numberous occasions, They have even been beat up by a 100lbs 5ft 2 bajoran woman on numerous occasions. So how does suspension of disbelief work for that since none of those species should ever lose in hand to hand vs a human or bajoran female since not only are they [B]all[B] supposed to be stronger and faster but Jem'hadar and Klingons are trained since childhood to be warriors and should not lose to even a highly skilled human martial artist, let alone the average joe semi out of shape characters they regularly get beaten by. I would say the Klingons got it the worst as far as just suspending disbelief.

I have to disagree. Every bit of visual evidence does not come close to supporting high firepower for Trek- the best we have is kiloton level firepower, which even by today's standards, is nothing. On the SG side, we have multi-gigaton nuclear weapons being thrown around by the Tauri, and supporting evidence to suggest multi-megaton weaponry for Hataks. We have references to Sokar's bombardment of Netu to release huge floods of lava across the surface. We have Carter's statement of 200MT. We have Beach Head's figures, which even at their lowest, still support high MT output per minute for a Hatak. However, we are coming at this in two different ways, leading to two totally different conclusions, and as we cannot agree, that is why I proposing to drop the firepower debate. You consider it to be unfair to Trek; I consider it unfair on Gate. We can at least agree that it's unfair on someone!

As Pheonix has stated there is no evidence to support SG yields. Its all circumstancial. The Tau'ri posses multi GT weapons but 812Gt is not shown, and they by no definition throw them around since they are not a standard armament and still not even close to it. We have an unknown number of ships over and unknown amount of time causing surface damage. When a fleet of 20 ST ships(mostly Cardasian in design which are generally inferior, if only by smaller margins in some cases, to every one elses ships) destroy most of a planetary body in 5 hours.

200MT was stated but never was shown by any attacks or damage done by the weapon. Also the “Beach Head” figures are based entirely on the assumption that 812GT is the actual yield when even in that episode she never stated more than multi-gigaton which can mean 2. Me an Phoenix are coming at the ST weapons issue, yet we both seem to be pulling evidence to rebut most of you claims period. I said your viewpoint made it unfair for ST but even using your viewpoint I pulled evidence to the contrary and so did Phoenix. I myself am basically justifying myself using both your method and my own and still rebutting you claims effectively. How would that not seem as though a conclusion has been reached?

(That curry last night... in hindsight, the lamb could have been cooked more).

I think I would prefer the lamb to be slightly undercooked than overcooked. Either way it still should have been pretty tasty.

I think the Federation has 150 member worlds, as per First Contact. Some of these worlds are certainly fortified, although some it would seem, are mor vulnerable- Betazed was conquered by the Dominion, and was even said in that same DS9 episode to have defences that were years out of date. This was a conventional attack by opposition with ships of comparable speed, so the much faster Goa'uld could easily attack a world like Betazed without fear of interception or reprisal, as they could withdraw again to their own territory before the Federation could easily respond.

How would speed matter when dealing with planetary defenses? The whole idea is to have as few ships in the area as possible while still effectively putting up a defense. To use a planetary defense system as an example that was blatantly stated to be out of date is questionable. I would say more current defenses would be comparable to that of the OWP's seen in the Chin'toka system.

This assumes that the Federation can easily reproduce hyperdrive. Plus, the Goa'uld could be sending spies the other way for their own technology thefts, and Federation shipyards would probably be high on the Goa'uld hit list.

Even on low end Sf outnumbers the goauld with 8000-10000 or more being likely. Divide that by a bit over 150 to add in starbases and other resource gathering installations and you still get a crap load of ships per planet defending it. This would be in addition to planetary defenses, that planets own defense force, and the fact that some member worlds are extremely close together, while some might even occupy the same star system. Even only weaponizing the Soliton wave, the federation would not need to move outside their territory since they can destroy any stationary target they choose in the galaxy pretty much. I am talking about the speed and power increasing on a soliton wave as seen in the show. Even the prototype technology used at relatively short range as seen in the test build up enough speed and power to take out a chunk of a planet. By that same progression over time the wave would probably travel faster than any warp capable ship and be capable of completely destroying a planet.

[darth_timon]

I thought you may.
"Every bit" is a major overstatement, unless you've forgotten the last few pages of this discussion then you know we've pinned down both visual and diologue proof that the very first warp capable Earth starship was capable of leveling a mountain, a mountain that's larger than Cheyenne.
We have diologue examples of powerful weapons namely The Die Is Cast, Living Witness.

Silent Enemy was the result of an alien device supplying more power than the Enterprise could have provided on its own. The first time this device affected the power systems it caused damage to the vessel! It cannot be taken as indicative of normal ship capabilities as the alien device introduced a variable to the situation.

I don't immediately recall Living Witness, but The Die is Cast is clear visual proof that firepower is not impressive, given the complete lack of anything to indicate such widespread damage in the shots we see. If 30% of the crust had indeed been destroyed, we should see it, but we don't.

You act like the federation couldn't make such Nukes if they used old 21st century technology and tacked on Naquadah like the Tauri has done.

I would imagine in time the Federation would figure it out. Whether they would have the time in an all out war with the Goa'uld is another matter.

Has the yield for run of the mill Goauld pulse cannons ever been stated?
I certainly can't recall it being stated, we certainly have no visual examples of the pulse cannons firing off megaton or even kiloton shots for that matter.

I would imagine it's the same weaponry right the way through for the Hataks. We never see them use anything other than pulse cannons in combat, so there's no reason to think they'd use something else in But there for the Grace of God. I've already pointed out justifications for why we don't see this sort of firepower used against the attacked targets in the show.

A reference that never states exactly how many ships were used or how long that took to achieve.

Nevertheless, we can use some straightforward logic to consider how such a feat would be achieved. If you take too long, the lava and melted rock would solifidy again, rendering your earlier work moot, so to turn an entire world like Netu into such a molten mess, you would have to impard considerable energy over a relatively short time frame. Plus, Sokar was not exactly in a position to waste ships on such exercises, not given his status as an outlaw in the eyes of the System Lords.

She doesn't state these shots are the Goauld's pulse weapons, we never see visuals or any diologue that supports these shots as being a fast fire weapon or something the Goauld can use in anywhere but the alt reality Daniel visited, there's no proof this is common to that Daniel's home reality.

We have no reason to think they were some other weapon, and we have no reason to assume that Hataks from the 'Prime' reality are any different- especially not when we consider Enemies and Beach Head

Any figures relating to Beach Head have no basis in fact since we have no idea how large the planet was or what the Mark 9's yield was, so we know absolutely nothing accept for the Mark 9 being a "mulit gigaton level explosion", we don't know how many gigatons this was and that is the truth.

Scaling work done on the explosion, assuming an earth-sized planet, puts the explosion at a minimum of 812GT. Yes, we can consider the possibility that the planet is smaller than an earth-sized world, but I can turn that notion on it's head and ask you to consider the possibility that the planet was bigger. This is why I assume earth-sized planets for events like this in both SG and ST- it's simply easier, and it helps to avoid getting bogged down in minuate.

It's only unfair if we were to ommit the canon of each show.
When you have no concrete facts with which to base your view point on it would be entirely unfair to just state a random figure for your side of the discussion.
Star Trek has a concrete starting point, with visual and diologue evidence that proves stronger firepower than your diologue example of SG1, it's constantly referenced in ST that newer vessels out match older ones and we have several generations of ST ships along with diologue supporting planet denting power.

We also have visual evidence from Pegasus that suggests only kiloton level firepower for torpedoes. We have the Borg in First Contact showing pathetic firepower. We have a low-speed collision taking out the Scimitar's shields in Nemesis. We have the aftermath of the Breen attack on earth in Skin of Evil being singularly unimpressive.

Far as the curry goes, it was ok, I can tolerate lamb undercooked- I just don't enjoy it so much. Just like I've decided Liverpool FC should be put into a box and left on a roadside in the rain.

The Goauld may be able to attack Federation member worlds, whether they would cause any significant damage is another matter.

I don't see reverse engineering as a problem for the federation, or modifying their propulsion to work in Hyperspace, we've seen variations on those kinds of technologies in the STverse, so it is possible.
Like I said before if you open up one group to being able to copy the other side's tech then you have to do the same for both it's that simple.
Since I think ST is superior in defensive and offensive technologies (when it comes to ship based weapons or general common tech such as SGs plasma weapons, STs Phasers, Torpedoes, etc and shields for both) to SG I think getting hold of a hyperdrive capable ship is gonna be easier for them, seems kinda obvious this would be the case with the evidence we have.

Since I think the Goa'uld have the superior defensive and offensive capabilities by a huge margin, I can see the Federation acquiring hyperdrive, and not being able to figure out what is a far more sophisticated propulsion system, and maybe not being able to generate the power necessary to make it viable, although to be honest, I don't think they'd be able to capture a Goa'uld ship in the first place.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Silent Enemy was the result of an alien device supplying more power than the Enterprise could have provided on its own. The first time this device affected the power systems it caused damage to the vessel! It cannot be taken as indicative of normal ship capabilities as the alien device introduced a variable to the situation.

I think you must have missed this:

As Tetsujin has pointed out in one of his recent posts (#869) the device was destroyed by Archer when the second attempt at firing the phase cannons was made, I have checked for myself and that is what takes place in the episode, you can check it out for yourself in this link here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRqZbv4PNf0, T'Pol also mentions the energy output of the device and using an online megajoule to megaton converter it's no where near even a single Megaton, not even a kiloton's worth of power.
So we can say that under an overload situation the enterprise is capable of the level of firepower we see, which if McKinley is larger than Cheyenne would prove greater firepower than the alt reality Ha'Tak.

As you can see this clearly proves the alien's device has nothing to do with providing power, since if it did it would have been present in the second overload of the weapon that disables the alien's ship, since it wasn't, it is proven that it had nothing to do with the power levels.
You also seem to have conveniently forgotten that the second firing of the weapon did not have the same effects to the enterprise since the hull plating was used to absorb the recoil.

BTW you never attempted to deal with the points I raised in that post, I think we'll be treading similar ground here again so you may or may not want to have a look at that post.
Anyway since it's proven that Enterprise was capable of what was shown in the episode this puts that matter to rest, it's the first warp capable starship Earth built in the ST universe and a starting point for the level of Starfleet fire power, this proves high firepower in the beginning it would be completely illogical for firepower to go downhill and this would support later and more impressive offensive capabilties.

I don't immediately recall Living Witness, but The Die is Cast is clear visual proof that firepower is not impressive, given the complete lack of anything to indicate such widespread damage in the shots we see. If 30% of the crust had indeed been destroyed, we should see it, but we don't.

In living witness we have reference to one of Voyager's Photon Torpedoes being capable of destroying a city, The Die Is Cast has been rationalized, like I've said before the Dominion could have used holographic emitters which could have been a few large devices or many smaller ones and other technological methods to hide the damage to the planet that could be later detected by the fleet's sensors.

Logically the Romulan's and Cardassians wouldn't have even gone to the Founder's homeworld if they thought their weapons would do squat.
There's more than one part of the diologue to that episode that supports what should have been seen, we have one part prior to the battle which I believe you've referenced in an older post, it's the one where someone states how long it should take to completely cripple the planet and of course there's after the first volley's been fired, logically none of that would be mentioned if no significant damage could or would have been achieved.

I would imagine in time the Federation would figure it out. Whether they would have the time in an all out war with the Goa'uld is another matter.

I imagine replicating an old nuke and tacking on some Naquadah that could be present and easily available to everyone capable of traveling a portion of the Milky Way would be quick and a doddle to do.

I would imagine it's the same weaponry right the way through for the Hataks. We never see them use anything other than pulse cannons in combat, so there's no reason to think they'd use something else in But there for the Grace of God. I've already pointed out justifications for why we don't see this sort of firepower used against the attacked targets in the show.

But you have no proof of this, all we get from diologue of that episodes is single shots being fired, if the Goauld wanted to wipe out most of the human race or every military facility why not just go about spamming the Earth with volley after volley of these shots?
If it was possible for the regular Goauld in the main SGverse then we would at least see or hear of this being reproduced, it hasn't been stated or shown to happen anywhere else, so logically it isn't possible for them.

Nevertheless, we can use some straightforward logic to consider how such a feat would be achieved. If you take too long, the lava and melted rock would solifidy again, rendering your earlier work moot, so to turn an entire world like Netu into such a molten mess, you would have to impard considerable energy over a relatively short time frame. Plus, Sokar was not exactly in a position to waste ships on such exercises, not given his status as an outlaw in the eyes of the System Lords.

Again you don't know any hard facts for this incident, since Goauld hyperdrive speeds are fast enough to cover a great innergalactic distance in a short space of time he could have brought as many ships as he deemed necessary to achieve the goal, he could have detonated Naquadah on the planet.
Was it ever actually stated how many ships he had?
Being an outlaw doesn't mean he didn't have enough ships, point is here you just don't have hard facts so you can't outright state anything for certain.

We have no reason to think they were some other weapon, and we have no reason to assume that Hataks from the 'Prime' reality are any different- especially not when we consider Enemies and Beach Head

See above, reason to believe there was no such rapid fire weapon is there, we never saw or heard of it, it's never been stated on the show to exist.
Enemies and Beach Head have been discussed in a variety of posts on the last page.

Scaling work done on the explosion, assuming an earth-sized planet, puts the explosion at a minimum of 812GT. Yes, we can consider the possibility that the planet is smaller than an earth-sized world, but I can turn that notion on it's head and ask you to consider the possibility that the planet was bigger. This is why I assume earth-sized planets for events like this in both SG and ST- it's simply easier, and it helps to avoid getting bogged down in minuate.

All scaling work has no concrete info on how large that world is, you and everyone else have no clue how far the planet was intended to be from the camera.
We have no accurate info here, so it's in no way concrete nor implied to be in the hundreds of gigatons, it's an impressive figure and would have been stated for further dramatic effect if it was achieved.

We also have visual evidence from Pegasus that suggests only kiloton level firepower for torpedoes. We have the Borg in First Contact showing pathetic firepower. We have a low-speed collision taking out the Scimitar's shields in Nemesis. We have the aftermath of the Breen attack on earth in Skin of Evil being singularly unimpressive.

No we don't, there's no reference to what the asteroid is made of, proto planetary mmaterial can be anything that makes up a planet which includes metals and other things.

With the Borg I'll quote myself again:

We do not know what the Borg's intent was other than assimilation, so you shouldn't automatically assume weak weapons, especially given previous displays weapon power from weaker races than the Borg in ST (like the 200 year older NX-01).
If it was the Borg's intent to destroy the warp ship at that time and if they were in a rush to do so (which there was no indication of) then they could have simply beamed an explosive charge of some kind into an area with rocket fuel and detonated it or as Tetsujin pointed out crash something through the Earth's atmosphere and land it at high speed into the Phoenix.
I could even speculate and say the Borg were trying to cause people to be afraid to mess with our morale.

As Tetsujin has previously stated the Enterprise travels high speed using only maneuvering thrusters in Pegasus, logically impulse engines would be much faster since they're the prime sublight propulsion technology of the federation in this case visuals are in contradiction of canon.

The Breen's attack looks very much like What You Leave Behind's federation ground attacks, it's more likely the same happened to Earth given the visual evidence.

Far as the curry goes, it was ok, I can tolerate lamb undercooked- I just don't enjoy it so much. Just like I've decided Liverpool FC should be put into a box and left on a roadside in the rain.

LOL, hope it's better next time, maybe you should mention it to your takeaway, they may give you a free dish or meal next time.

Since I think the Goa'uld have the superior defensive and offensive capabilities by a huge margin, I can see the Federation acquiring hyperdrive, and not being able to figure out what is a far more sophisticated propulsion system, and maybe not being able to generate the power necessary to make it viable, although to be honest, I don't think they'd be able to capture a Goa'uld ship in the first place.

Every piece of evidence we have that Tetsujin and myself have used in this post and before proves that the Goauld do not have superior defensive or offensive technologies.
We have reference to a vessel such as the Enterprise D have far superior power generation capabilties than the Asgard, a race that would be far superior to the Goauld, I doubt power would be a problem, neither would capturing a weak unshielded cargo ship, there are many of these ships that don't have any defenses along with other small hyperdrive capable ships being used around the Milky Way in SG, it would not be hard to get one or more.
Whether each piece of technology is (Warp or Hyperdrives) more sophisticated than each other is debatable, since sophistication is all about which device is more complex than the next and not it's final cabilities, all you can say is it's faster (for some races), given a few thousand years warp could far exceed the speeds of hyperdrive, since groups like the federation only have a few centuries experience at most with these technologies, slipstream, transwarp, etc could be about in the next decade of Voyager time history.

If 21st century Humans (the Tauri) with no background using FTL, a far inferior understanding of physics and miltary tech can get hold of these technologies and only fail to recreate them themselves because of a lack of large enough scale power generation (which is constantly stated in early SG, Carter always says they can't generate enough power to generate a HSW), which starfleet or any warp capable, matter/anti-matter using race should be easily able to provide enough power for well logically it can't be that hard.

[Tetsujin]

Silent Enemy was the result of an alien device supplying more power than the Enterprise could have provided on its own. The first time this device affected the power systems it caused damage to the vessel! It cannot be taken as indicative of normal ship capabilities as the alien device introduced a variable to the situation.

No it wasnt. Are you just blatantly ignoring the fact that Archer destroyed the device and then they still did the exact same thing again without it. Also yes the first time it caused damage to the vessel but the second time it did not. So when they knew what the problem was it was resolved and still allowed them that power boost. We all understand that it was not a standard capability, but the point was the fact that a 200 year old ship was capable of such a thing and you are claiming that the most advanced SF ships to date are weaker. Again I will point out the effect was repeated without the alien device so the ship was capapble of the same effect on their own and with minimal damage.

I don't immediately recall Living Witness, but The Die is Cast is clear visual proof that firepower is not impressive, given the complete lack of anything to indicate such widespread damage in the shots we see. If 30% of the crust had indeed been destroyed, we should see it, but we don't.

Of course you wont see anything considering the dust cloud and the fact we only saw the planet once. Unless you have the ability to see through a dust cloud then its what it is and 30% of the crust was destroyed in opening volley.

I would imagine in time the Federation would figure it out. Whether they would have the time in an all out war with the Goa'uld is another matter.

What are you talking about? SF uses nuclear fusion reactors for power, and spacial torpedoes are nuclear weapons and use was discontinues 200 years ago in favor of the more powerful photonic, and photon torpedoes. There would be nothing to figure out since they already have the technology and more. It also doesnt take a genius to slap some naquadah on anything you want to go boom harder.

I would imagine it's the same weaponry right the way through for the Hataks. We never see them use anything other than pulse cannons in combat, so there's no reason to think they'd use something else in But there for the Grace of God. I've already pointed out justifications for why we don't see this sort of firepower used against the attacked targets in the show.

Why would you imagine that? In the federation ship specifications are generally improved upon and shared. However that is not Goa'uld practice they they pretty much are enemies who would not share technology with one another. Also while you have pointed out justifications they are flawed in the sense that the Goa'uld dont think that way. You act as though them killing a few hundred people would matter. You also assume that they would not want to destroy technology when the incident with the tollans proves that they do.

Nevertheless, we can use some straightforward logic to consider how such a feat would be achieved. If you take too long, the lava and melted rock would solifidy again, rendering your earlier work moot, so to turn an entire world like Netu into such a molten mess, you would have to impard considerable energy over a relatively short time frame. Plus, Sokar was not exactly in a position to waste ships on such exercises, not given his status as an outlaw in the eyes of the System Lords.

Exactly right. So by your logic it points to a fleet of ships accomplishing the job, since their has been no indication of a single Ha'tak being capable of even close to that, with even multiple gatebusters not having that effect. He is an outlaw, how exactly does that lead you to assume he is powerless and how does it allow you to gauge how many ships he has to use on any one action?

We have no reason to think they were some other weapon, and we have no reason to assume that Hataks from the 'Prime' reality are any different- especially not when we consider Enemies and Beach Head

If we consider those episodes then I would say that we have to conclude they are different. Since there has been no indication of high firepower from Ha'taks beyond that. He also had a fleet with him so yea compound damage much.

Scaling work done on the explosion, assuming an earth-sized planet, puts the explosion at a minimum of 812GT. Yes, we can consider the possibility that the planet is smaller than an earth-sized world, but I can turn that notion on it's head and ask you to consider the possibility that the planet was bigger. This is why I assume earth-sized planets for events like this in both SG and ST- it's simply easier, and it helps to avoid getting bogged down in minuate.

Fist, assuming earth sized is suspect since assuming the size of a planet is a pretty big assumption. Also there is no way possible it was Earth sized since one of the only two pieces of canon evidence you have puts the blast radius of a gatebuster at 100mi.and would take 60 of them side to side to make a ring around earth. They show a computer screen of the gatebusters range on a computer screen after is detonation and with that as a basis 60 of them would not fit around the diameter of that planet. So was pretty easy to obtain planet size based on just that one screen and estimating the remaining planetary body based on the curvature. Since the 100mi radius of the weapon was stated and we can calculate that you would need about 800GT for a fireball of 100mi. So no its not a minimum its actually a maximum. With lower if outside the fireball can still cause incineration because of thermal energy still being high outside of the blast radius.

Also like I stated before, if we always assume Earth-sized then that makes the events of “The Die is Cast” even more favorable for ST.

We also have visual evidence from Pegasus that suggests only kiloton level firepower for torpedoes. We have the Borg in First Contact showing pathetic firepower. We have a low-speed collision taking out the Scimitar's shields in Nemesis. We have the aftermath of the Breen attack on earth in Skin of Evil being singularly unimpressive.

Far as the curry goes, it was ok, I can tolerate lamb undercooked- I just don't enjoy it so much. Just like I've decided Liverpool FC should be put into a box and left on a roadside in the rain.

We dont have any visuals for that. Riker just threw our an ambiguous figure for a hypothetical scenario. It was never actually dont now specifics explored and people have different opinions on the size and composition of the asteroid which logically would still be a minimum of 6 km on the short sides. We have the borg being plot raped in “First Contact”. The First contact weapons fire only shows C4 level explosions which can be cause by hand phasers, so a ship causing that much damage while actually trying is out of the question. Low speed is also impossible since using full impulse power is accelerating at fractions of c. This is canon across the entire franchise with even the large galaxy class able to accelerate to km/s using only thrusters and not the main engines, so anything seen visually that contradicts this is just for dramatic purposes. You are basically, bringing up issues that have already been disproved and/or dismissed.

Since I think the Goa'uld have the superior defensive and offensive capabilities by a huge margin, I can see the Federation acquiring hyperdrive, and not being able to figure out what is a far more sophisticated propulsion system, and maybe not being able to generate the power necessary to make it viable, although to be honest, I don't think they'd be able to capture a Goa'uld ship in the first place.

You think that, but it is not so. The hyperdrive seems no more, if not less, complicated than the Quantum SlipStream Drive and a lone ship, with limited resources, in the delta quadrant, figured that out and made one from scratch in about a day so you assuming they cant figure out a hyperdrive is interesting. Heck even the Tau'ri figured it out to a degree so the much more advanced federation would fare much better than them. Also the Biliskner class ships have intergalactic hyperdrives and yet their energy output seems outrageously low so I dont think power output would be even a slight issue since a warp drive in incredibly energy intensive and they can still run weapons and shields simultaneously while the Asgard can not have weapons or shields active while using the hyperdrive due to energy constraints. So you are saying the wont be able to capture even a Tel'tak? Actually you may be right, since the Goa'uld ships battered and broken remains would be hard to salvage from.

[Tetsujin]

haha you beat me to it Phoenix

[darth_timon]

[QUOTE=Tetsujin;11993825]No it wasnt. Are you just blatantly ignoring the fact that Archer destroyed the device and then they still did the exact same thing again without it. Also yes the first time it caused damage to the vessel but the second time it did not. So when they knew what the problem was it was resolved and still allowed them that power boost. We all understand that it was not a standard capability, but the point was the fact that a 200 year old ship was capable of such a thing and you are claiming that the most advanced SF ships to date are weaker. Again I will point out the effect was repeated without the alien device so the ship was capapble of the same effect on their own and with minimal damage.

The second time they overloaded the phasers (and note that they had to overload them, a risky procedure) they blew out a plasma relay and their phasers then down for nearly an hour. Not exactly normal operational status for such weapons.

Of course you wont see anything considering the dust cloud and the fact we only saw the planet once. Unless you have the ability to see through a dust cloud then its what it is and 30% of the crust was destroyed in opening volley.

What dust? We don't see any dust, or anything to indicate the firepower claimed, at all! We see a clip of the planet, we see shots hitting the planet, we see shockwaves pass over the surface and we see no disturbances of any kind to the surface once those shockwaves have passed. The visual evidence is clear cut and the firepower comes nowhere close to the levels claimed.

What are you talking about? SF uses nuclear fusion reactors for power, and spacial torpedoes are nuclear weapons and use was discontinues 200 years ago in favor of the more powerful photonic, and photon torpedoes. There would be nothing to figure out since they already have the technology and more. It also doesnt take a genius to slap some naquadah on anything you want to go boom harder.

Perhaps they could figure it out quickly. In fact, they'd have to figure out naquadah and naquadriah fast, to avoid being wiped out.

Why would you imagine that? In the federation ship specifications are generally improved upon and shared. However that is not Goa'uld practice they they pretty much are enemies who would not share technology with one another. Also while you have pointed out justifications they are flawed in the sense that the Goa'uld dont think that way. You act as though them killing a few hundred people would matter. You also assume that they would not want to destroy technology when the incident with the tollans proves that they do.

What evidence is there that the Goa'uld have weapons other than the ones we've seen them use? Every Hatak we have seen uses the same type of weapon. Plus, again, I refer to you the typical modus operandi of the Goa'uld- they like to gloat, to lord it over their enemies, and to steal technology. They were doing this in The Sentinel, proclaiming how the population should worship them, with the occasional burst of weapons fire to scare the population. In Between Two Fires, there may still have been articles of technology to pillage from the Tollans.

Exactly right. So by your logic it points to a fleet of ships accomplishing the job, since their has been no indication of a single Ha'tak being capable of even close to that, with even multiple gatebusters not having that effect. He is an outlaw, how exactly does that lead you to assume he is powerless and how does it allow you to gauge how many ships he has to use on any one action?

You blithly ignore the Beach Head calculations with nitpicks, yet we are to believe that the events of The Die is Cast is clear cut. Well, we might as wel assume that the Founder's home world was only half the size of Pluto, thus radically reducing the firepower of the Romulan/Cardassian fleet.

We see Gatebusters again in First Strike, multiple ones in fact, once again used on a world where human beings were seen to move about as though in normal gravity. You can nitpick the exact size of the planet, but continue doing that and I'll assume the same for every instance in Trek, or we can assume earth-sized for both universes- which seems fairer to you?

As for Sokaer- as an outlaw, a renegade, he would hardly be likely to have ships to waste on frivelous exercises like Netu. It was said that he was building a fleet to attack the System Lords- this implies he didn't have a large fleet at the time.

If we consider those episodes then I would say that we have to conclude they are different. Since there has been no indication of high firepower from Ha'taks beyond that. He also had a fleet with him so yea compound damage much.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=352

Gateworld's very own Mr Oragahn has done his own work on Enemies and considers all those calculations to be conservative figures. The Hatak in question is not somehow 'different' to any other Hatak, and at a minimum, according to those figures, absorbed 17.164GT. If I were to be extremely generous and let you have your multi-megaton torpedoes, it would take 85 200MT torpedoes to breach the shields of that Hatak!

Fist, assuming earth sized is suspect since assuming the size of a planet is a pretty big assumption. Also there is no way possible it was Earth sized since one of the only two pieces of canon evidence you have puts the blast radius of a gatebuster at 100mi.and would take 60 of them side to side to make a ring around earth. They show a computer screen of the gatebusters range on a computer screen after is detonation and with that as a basis 60 of them would not fit around the diameter of that planet. So was pretty easy to obtain planet size based on just that one screen and estimating the remaining planetary body based on the curvature. Since the 100mi radius of the weapon was stated and we can calculate that you would need about 800GT for a fireball of 100mi. So no its not a minimum its actually a maximum. With lower if outside the fireball can still cause incineration because of thermal energy still being high outside of the blast radius.

Some calculations are based on looking at the size of the explosion and considering the distinct possibility that the explosion was actually bigger than the 100mi that it was assumed to be. Naquadriah is an unstable and extremely energetic substance and it could have gone up with a bigger bang.

Also like I stated before, if we always assume Earth-sized then that makes the events of “The Die is Cast” even more favorable for ST.

Except of course, you like to nitpick such details, so lets assume Pluto sized for TDIC instead.

We dont have any visuals for that. Riker just threw our an ambiguous figure for a hypothetical scenario. It was never actually dont now specifics explored and people have different opinions on the size and composition of the asteroid which logically would still be a minimum of 6 km on the short sides. We have the borg being plot raped in “First Contact”. The First contact weapons fire only shows C4 level explosions which can be cause by hand phasers, so a ship causing that much damage while actually trying is out of the question. Low speed is also impossible since using full impulse power is accelerating at fractions of c. This is canon across the entire franchise with even the large galaxy class able to accelerate to km/s using only thrusters and not the main engines, so anything seen visually that contradicts this is just for dramatic purposes. You are basically, bringing up issues that have already been disproved and/or dismissed.

Just because you have dismissed canon visuals in favour of speculation or dialogue which is never verified doesn'r mean those examples have actually been dealt with.

You think that, but it is not so. The hyperdrive seems no more, if not less, complicated than the Quantum SlipStream Drive and a lone ship, with limited resources, in the delta quadrant, figured that out and made one from scratch in about a day so you assuming they cant figure out a hyperdrive is interesting. Heck even the Tau'ri figured it out to a degree so the much more advanced federation would fare much better than them. Also the Biliskner class ships have intergalactic hyperdrives and yet their energy output seems outrageously low so I dont think power output would be even a slight issue since a warp drive in incredibly energy intensive and they can still run weapons and shields simultaneously while the Asgard can not have weapons or shields active while using the hyperdrive due to energy constraints. So you are saying the wont be able to capture even a Tel'tak? Actually you may be right, since the Goa'uld ships battered and broken remains would be hard to salvage from.

Voyager nearly flew itself apart using Slipstream in the 100th episode, so no, there is no indication of figuring out hyperdrive easily. That's a fallacy. Also, based on all the visual evidence, and supported by dialogue, the Federation would probably be losing ships at a ratio of 5:1! So much for salvaging stuff when your own ships are wreckage!

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

haha you beat me to it Phoenix

, there's a first time for everything.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The second time they overloaded the phasers (and note that they had to overload them, a risky procedure) they blew out a plasma relay and their phasers then down for nearly an hour. Not exactly normal operational status for such weapons.

They had to overload the cannons to get the most out of them yes, this still accomplished the same goal as the first firing attempt, with less damage than the first attempt.
A few modifications or firing more shots on less power would likely have the same result of downing the alien vessel's shields.
In the end this is still an impressive display or firepower from the first warp capable Human built Star Trek starship.
Your previous claims that the displays of firepower being the result of an alien power source have been rebutted and that is the truth!

What dust? We don't see any dust, or anything to indicate the firepower claimed, at all! We see a clip of the planet, we see shots hitting the planet, we see shockwaves pass over the surface and we see no disturbances of any kind to the surface once those shockwaves have passed. The visual evidence is clear cut and the firepower comes nowhere close to the levels claimed.

I have to agree with Testujin, it's something I didn't consider before, but here's a link that shows that part of the episode at 5mins 28 secs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkIx1...eature=related
We see shockwaves of what appears to be large sized dust clouds that could cover any visible damage to the planet.
Those shockwaves cover a vary large portion of the visible planet and visuals are only shown breafly, we don't get any close ups of the surface, so I don't see how you can come to any conclusions besides what we're told and shown from an unknown distance from the surface of the Founder's homeworld.

Perhaps they could figure it out quickly. In fact, they'd have to figure out naquadah and naquadriah fast, to avoid being wiped out.

There would be nothing to figure out, once they knew Naquadah is that explosive they'd just need to get hold of some, which they could beam up to their ship and install whatever amount into an easily built nuclear torpedo or maybe even a regular photon or quantum variation.

What evidence is there that the Goa'uld have weapons other than the ones we've seen them use? Every Hatak we have seen uses the same type of weapon. Plus, again, I refer to you the typical modus operandi of the Goa'uld- they like to gloat, to lord it over their enemies, and to steal technology. They were doing this in The Sentinel, proclaiming how the population should worship them, with the occasional burst of weapons fire to scare the population. In Between Two Fires, there may still have been articles of technology to pillage from the Tollans.

You're ignoring everything that apposes your viewpoint.
Destroying a few worlds wouldn't stop them from gloating.
They have no reason in There But For The Grace Of God to not just blast away everything that could be a military asset and even wipe away a large portion of the Earth's population, they wanted to destroy Earth, if it was possible to do this using a quick fire weapon then they would have done it, since they didn't we cannot assume they could have.

You blithly ignore the Beach Head calculations with nitpicks, yet we are to believe that the events of The Die is Cast is clear cut. Well, we might as wel assume that the Founder's home world was only half the size of Pluto, thus radically reducing the firepower of the Romulan/Cardassian fleet.

Beach Head is obviously not a clear cut piece of proof (since no one can state anything for sure), it doesn't fit perfectly with your own examples of Goauld fire power and in no way supports your claims of high yield rapid fire power.
The Die Is Cast has now been shown to prove what it claims, there are no holes to pick with that piece of evidence.
Even if the Founder's home world was only half the size of Pluto that would still mean destroying 30% of the crust of a world with a diameter of 1190 kilometres, that's still a much larger display of firepower than any weapon on Stargate.
Anyway pluto isn't a planet, it's a dwarf planet and doesn't fit all of the criteria to be classed as a planet.

We see Gatebusters again in First Strike, multiple ones in fact, once again used on a world where human beings were seen to move about as though in normal gravity. You can nitpick the exact size of the planet, but continue doing that and I'll assume the same for every instance in Trek, or we can assume earth-sized for both universes- which seems fairer to you?

Horizon wasn't completely filled with only gatebusters, it had some decoys, if it was easy to make loads of them then Earth would only use such explosives when they need them, they don't so it can't be assumed that they can just throw them around as and when they choose.
In order to be fair we'd need evidence for planetary size, we don't have it for every planet so all we can assume is that they fit the criteria to be classed as a planet, we shouldn't just assume Earth sized for every world just because of a lack of evidence.

As for Sokaer- as an outlaw, a renegade, he would hardly be likely to have ships to waste on frivelous exercises like Netu. It was said that he was building a fleet to attack the System Lords- this implies he didn't have a large fleet at the time.

Just because Sokar was an outlaw that means nothing, if he was building a fleet to fight the system lords then all we can assume is he didn't have enough ships to fight them all and be a threat to all.
Maybe he didn't have a large fleet compared to all of the system lords combined, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a large fleet in general or compared to some of the system lords with larger fleets than the least powerful SL's, it also doesn't mean he did, so really we cannot assume either way.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=352

Gateworld's very own Mr Oragahn has done his own work on Enemies and considers all those calculations to be conservative figures. The Hatak in question is not somehow 'different' to any other Hatak, and at a minimum, according to those figures, absorbed 17.164GT. If I were to be extremely generous and let you have your multi-megaton torpedoes, it would take 85 200MT torpedoes to breach the shields of that Hatak!

Extremely generous lol.
It's been proven that firepower is as we have shown!
It's canon, that means it's true to Star Trek, Ha'Tak shields are clearly weaker.
As The Die Is Cast proves planet denting (on an initial volley) fire power and no such thing for Stargate races, that's the truth and it shows Star Trek is far superior in these areas, which means stronger shields too.
The level of explosive yield of a Torpedo could be increased by increasing the amount of Antimatter and Matter, which would only be limited by the size of the casing and density of the M or AM used.
The Federation could just make larger torpedoes if needed.

Some calculations are based on looking at the size of the explosion and considering the distinct possibility that the explosion was actually bigger than the 100mi that it was assumed to be. Naquadriah is an unstable and extremely energetic substance and it could have gone up with a bigger bang.

You'd need something to base that off of, like knowing the size of a planet, which you don't know.
How can you assume that Naquadriah could make a bigger bang than it has, it's still limited by how much energy is contained within the substance, from what I recall the energy output just wasn't constant when trying to use it to generate power, but it was used to output all energy at once, detonating the same quanity in the same device should produce the same sized explosion all of the time.

Except of course, you like to nitpick such details, so lets assume Pluto sized for TDIC instead.

Even if pluto was classed as a planet (which it isn't) that would still be 30% of the planetary crust destroyed on a dwarf planet with a diameter of an estimated (by nasahttp://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/pluto_worldbook.html) 2300 kilometers, with an initial volley.

Just because you have dismissed canon visuals in favour of speculation or dialogue which is never verified doesn'r mean those examples have actually been dealt with.

There's no way to conclusively prove what the asteroid's exact composition is, proto planetary could mean it was made of anything a planet can be made of.
The Die Is Cast and Silent Enemy prove high firepower from Star Trek races.

Voyager nearly flew itself apart using Slipstream in the 100th episode, so no, there is no indication of figuring out hyperdrive easily. That's a fallacy. Also, based on all the visual evidence, and supported by dialogue, the Federation would probably be losing ships at a ratio of 5:1! So much for salvaging stuff when your own ships are wreckage!

Just because sensor tech wasn't quite advanced enough to make slip stream safe that doesn't mean hyperdrive would be impossible.
Like I said before if the Tauri can at least attempt hyperdrive and only not achieve a succesful flight because of a lack of power (which wouldn't be problem for a race that can achieve warp levels of power) then it should be possible for Star Trek races.
All visual and numerous diologue evidence used by us so far is in favour of Star Trek, the weakest and oldest federation starship which is outmatched by many races in Enterprise would be a match for Ha'Taks as shown on Stargate, later federation, klingon, romulans annd pretty any warp capable 24th century race would absolutely maul them judging by the diologue and visual evidence used so far.
You're just grasping at straws now, please accept the evidence put forth to you or find something new since all examples shown prove Star Trek superiorety in every way but speed.

In what episode was it stated or implied that Ha'Taks can travel at 32,000 times light speed?

[Tetsujin]

I would just like to add my 2 cents to your argument if you dont mind. Anything not here I felt I didnt need to add anything.

They had to overload the cannons to get the most out of them yes, this still accomplished the same goal as the first firing attempt, with less damage than the first attempt.
A few modifications or firing more shots on less power would likely have the same result of downing the alien vessel's shields.
In the end this is still an impressive display or firepower from the first warp capable Human built Star Trek starship.
Your previous claims that the displays of firepower being the result of an alien power source have been rebutted and that is the truth!

Also just to add insult to injury, these were weapons built from scratch on the ship and not fully tested. With this output they could have later built power systems to handle the surge or have a high surge buffer system between the phasers and main power in times for when an extra boost is needed.

I have to agree with Testujin, it's something I didn't consider before, but here's a link that shows that part of the episode at 5mins 28 secs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkIx1...eature=related
We see shockwaves of what appears to be large sized dust clouds that could cover any visible damage to the planet.
Those shockwaves cover a vary large portion of the visible planet and visuals are only shown breafly, we don't get any close ups of the surface, so I don't see how you can come to any conclusions besides what we're told and shown from an unknown distance from the surface of the Founder's homeworld.

There would be nothing to figure out, once they knew Naquadah is that explosive they'd just need to get hold of some, which they could beam up to their ship and install whatever amount into an easily built nuclear torpedo or maybe even a regular photon or quantum variation.

Like I had mentioned earlier, by the time of even later ST: Enterprise spacial torpedoes, which were nuclear weapons, were considered highly inneffective compared to photonic torpedoes, and photon topedoes are a more advanced weapon that that, so I dont even think they would bother with them and just add the Naquadah strait to the photon or quantum torpedo. Also just because its the same weapon doesnt mean its as advance, powerful, or effective as another weapon. That like saying all ballistic weapons are the same simply because they all share the same basic design concept. Would you rate a M16 as effective and powerful as a musket, they are the same concept of using gunpowder to accelerate a projectile at a target.

Beach Head is obviously not a clear cut piece of proof (since no one can state anything for sure), it doesn't fit perfectly with your own examples of Goauld fire power and in no way supports your claims of high yield rapid fire power.
The Die Is Cast has now been shown to prove what it claims, there are no holes to pick with that piece of evidence.
Even if the Founder's home world was only half the size of Pluto that would still mean destroying 30% of the crust of a world with a diameter of 1190 kilometres, that's still a much larger display of firepower than any weapon on Stargate.
Anyway pluto isn't a planet, it's a dwarf planet and doesn't fit all of the criteria to be classed as a planet.

Also I did in my post give evidence as seen in the show can be used in conjunction with the 100mi blast radius to determine the size of the planet was not near Earth sized. Also since there is a power discrepancy with calculations in “Beach Head” the claim of varying firepowers between Goa'uld ships seem to be supported.

The level of explosive yield of a Torpedo could be increased by increasing the amount of Antimatter and Matter, which would only be limited by the size of the casing and density of the M or AM used.
The Federation could just make larger torpedoes if needed.

I would also like to restate the extremely small amounts of antimatter necessary to fit into low yields could easily be much much much higher and still fit within the casing of a standard torpedo.

Even if pluto was classed as a planet (which it isn't) that would still be 30% of the planetary crust destroyed on a dwarf planet with a diameter of an estimated (by nasahttp://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/pluto_worldbook.html) 2300 kilometers, with an initial volley.

I would also like to add that no one was nitpicking since all we were doing was stating possibilities based on planet size. Also if we were merely nitpicking why wouldnt we just leave all calculations to Earth-sized planets and make the events of “The Die Is Cast” even more favorable for our own arguments?

There's no way to conclusively prove what the asteroid's exact composition is, proto planetary could mean it was made of anything a planet can be made of.
The Die Is Cast and Silent Enemy prove high firepower from Star Trek races.

Also that would still leave the size of the asteroid at over 6km on the short end because there would be no reason to take the long way out of the asteroid when you are phasing strait through matter.

Just because sensor tech wasn't quite advanced enough to make slip stream safe that doesn't mean hyperdrive would be impossible.
Like I said before if the Tauri can at least attempt hyperdrive and only not achieve a succesful flight because of a lack of power (which wouldn't be problem for a race that can achieve warp levels of power) then it should be possible for Star Trek races.
All visual and numerous diologue evidence used by us so far is in favour of Star Trek, the weakest and oldest federation starship which is outmatched by many races in Enterprise would be a match for Ha'Taks as shown on Stargate, later federation, klingon, romulans annd pretty any warp capable 24th century race would absolutely maul them judging by the diologue and visual evidence used so far.
You're just grasping at straws now, please accept the evidence put forth to you or find something new since all examples shown prove Star Trek superiorety in every way but speed.

In what episode was it stated or implied that Ha'Taks can travel at 32,000 times light speed?

You seem to have left our many important factors. One, they were using an advanced form of the slipstream drive that allowed them to get home within hours instead of days or months. If the original drive was over 2million c, that would put this varient at mant times that speed which would equate to many times the strain on the vessels hull normally, and damage was only seen once calculations started to become increasingly inaccurate due to the speed of the computer not being up to the task.

Two, this also would make ST ships more prepared for the rigors of hyperspace travel, if there are any, since a Biliskner class which travels much faster than Goa'uld ships hull cant even withstand uncontrolled atmospheric re-entry which O'niell makes a quip about. Voyager was shown in the episode "Timesless" to both withstand uncontrolled re-entry and the crash despite the damage already caused by the failed attempt at slipstream. We have also seen a galaxy class ships saucer section pull of a similar feat in “ST:Generations”. I also dont really concede to faster general speed in SG, just species who still rely on standard warp drive. The more advanced species in ST, compared to the more advance species in SG(which are the ones with the super fast hyperdrive) is still unkown.

It is stated in “Enemies” that a Ha'tak vessel travels at 32,000c. No other reference of a standard Ha'tak going faster than that is ever made,0 to my recolection, whether through dialogue or visuals. Only the System Lord Flagships have been shown to go faster. That would leave the Goa'uld with about 8 ships on high end that can go faster than 32,000c.

[SG1nerd]

Ori would definitely win because of the superior shield technology and weaponry.
Wraith would loose as long as it was a one on one battle, but overall they do have the advantage of numbers.
Asgard would undoubtedly win because they can defeat Ori ships given the chance.
Goa'uld would loose because they have primitive battle techniques and would be stopped by the torpedoes because their shields are too primitive. However, Anubis's ship would be a tough fight, unless the Star Trek ships had the knowledge that SG1 did.

[darth_timon]

They had to overload the cannons to get the most out of them yes, this still accomplished the same goal as the first firing attempt, with less damage than the first attempt.
A few modifications or firing more shots on less power would likely have the same result of downing the alien vessel's shields.
In the end this is still an impressive display or firepower from the first warp capable Human built Star Trek starship.
Your previous claims that the displays of firepower being the result of an alien power source have been rebutted and that is the truth!

I will grant that the second instance of firing was off the Enterprise's own back. However, overloading your system in order to deliver a powerful shot is not advisable! Even a series of smaller overloads is ill advised, as that will still put a strain on the ship, and my point about the firepower not being indicative of normal firepower stands.

[QuoteI have to agree with Testujin, it's something I didn't consider before, but here's a link that shows that part of the episode at 5mins 28 secs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkIx1...eature=related
We see shockwaves of what appears to be large sized dust clouds that could cover any visible damage to the planet.
Those shockwaves cover a vary large portion of the visible planet and visuals are only shown breafly, we don't get any close ups of the surface, so I don't see how you can come to any conclusions besides what we're told and shown from an unknown distance from the surface of the Founder's homeworld.[/quote]

I repeat, what dust? We see shockwaves pass over the surface of the planet, and the surface before the shockwaves pass and the surface afterward does not change. There is nothing to indicate large clouds of dust.

There would be nothing to figure out, once they knew Naquadah is that explosive they'd just need to get hold of some, which they could beam up to their ship and install whatever amount into an easily built nuclear torpedo or maybe even a regular photon or quantum variation.

They have to first work out what the explosive element is (and if they're fighting the Goa'uld, who don't use naquadah as a weapon, this becomes more difficult). Next they have to acquire some, which won't be easy, given that they'll struggle to knock out the shields of Hataks, and won't be able to easily penetrate Goa'uld territory. Finally, with the System Lords pummelling Federation colonies, they'll be on the backfoot too much to have much time for any raids anyway.

You're ignoring everything that apposes your viewpoint.
Destroying a few worlds wouldn't stop them from gloating.
They have no reason in There But For The Grace Of God to not just blast away everything that could be a military asset and even wipe away a large portion of the Earth's population, they wanted to destroy Earth, if it was possible to do this using a quick fire weapon then they would have done it, since they didn't we cannot assume they could have.

Why assume some other weapon when we never see the Goauld use anything else? The burden of proof is on you to show some other, slow weapon, did the damage in But there for the Grace of God. Also, explain why, in the examples we see of Goauld bombardment, why they would need or want to use their full capabilities, and explain how what we see doesn't fit in with what we know and understand of the Goauld.

Beach Head is obviously not a clear cut piece of proof (since no one can state anything for sure), it doesn't fit perfectly with your own examples of Goauld fire power and in no way supports your claims of high yield rapid fire power.
The Die Is Cast has now been shown to prove what it claims, there are no holes to pick with that piece of evidence.
Even if the Founder's home world was only half the size of Pluto that would still mean destroying 30% of the crust of a world with a diameter of 1190 kilometres, that's still a much larger display of firepower than any weapon on Stargate.
Anyway pluto isn't a planet, it's a dwarf planet and doesn't fit all of the criteria to be classed as a planet.

I find it staggering that TDIC can be taken as definitive proof for Trek, despite the obviously low firepower of the visuals, yet Mitchell's 100mi radius for the explosions on Beach Head gets ignored, right along with the visuals, and instead we get nitpicks over the size of the planet! If we a actually stop and look at the evidence from those episodes, its clear the Goauld have q massive firepower advantage.

Horizon wasn't completely filled with only gatebusters, it had some decoys, if it was easy to make loads of them then Earth would only use such explosives when they need them, they don't so it can't be assumed that they can just throw them around as and when they choose.

They must be able to produce Mark 9s quite steadily in order to have had six to chuck into the Horizon module. I'm not suggesting they can build a dozen a day, but they are obviously capable of building them steadily.

In order to be fair we'd need evidence for planetary size, we don't have it for every planet so all we can assume is that they fit the criteria to be classed as a planet, we shouldn't just assume Earth sized for every world just because of a lack of evidence.

What should do then? Assume every world is smaller? Every world is bigger? I propose earth size because it avoids us getting bogged down in this way.

Just because Sokar was an outlaw that means nothing, if he was building a fleet to fight the system lords then all we can assume is he didn't have enough ships to fight them all and be a threat to all.
Maybe he didn't have a large fleet compared to all of the system lords combined, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a large fleet in general or compared to some of the system lords with larger fleets than the least powerful SL's, it also doesn't mean he did, so really we cannot assume either way.

You're right, we cannot assume either way, except that if you're an enemy of the System Lords, you don't waste ships on such things.

Extremely generous lol.
It's been proven that firepower is as we have shown!
It's canon, that means it's true to Star Trek, Ha'Tak shields are clearly weaker.
As The Die Is Cast proves planet denting (on an initial volley) fire power and no such thing for Stargate races, that's the truth and it shows Star Trek is far superior in these areas, which means stronger shields too.

His figures are based on Canon evidence. And they are conservative. TDIC is conclusive of low yield and nothing else. I will reply to the rest lTer
The level of explosive yield of a Torpedo could be increased by increasing the amount of Antimatter and Matter, which would only be limited by the size of the casing and density of the M or AM used.
The Federation could just make larger torpedoes if needed.

You'd need something to base that off of, like knowing the size of a planet, which you don't know.
How can you assume that Naquadriah could make a bigger bang than it has, it's still limited by how much energy is contained within the substance, from what I recall the energy output just wasn't constant when trying to use it to generate power, but it was used to output all energy at once, detonating the same quanity in the same device should produce the same sized explosion all of the time.

Even if pluto was classed as a planet (which it isn't) that would still be 30% of the planetary crust destroyed on a dwarf planet with a diameter of an estimated (by nasahttp://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/pluto_worldbook.html) 2300 kilometers, with an initial volley.

There's no way to conclusively prove what the asteroid's exact composition is, proto planetary could mean it was made of anything a planet can be made of.
The Die Is Cast and Silent Enemy prove high firepower from Star Trek races.

Just because sensor tech wasn't quite advanced enough to make slip stream safe that doesn't mean hyperdrive would be impossible.
Like I said before if the Tauri can at least attempt hyperdrive and only not achieve a succesful flight because of a lack of power (which wouldn't be problem for a race that can achieve warp levels of power) then it should be possible for Star Trek races.
All visual and numerous diologue evidence used by us so far is in favour of Star Trek, the weakest and oldest federation starship which is outmatched by many races in Enterprise would be a match for Ha'Taks as shown on Stargate, later federation, klingon, romulans annd pretty any warp capable 24th century race would absolutely maul them judging by the diologue and visual evidence used so far.
You're just grasping at straws now, please accept the evidence put forth to you or find something new since all examples shown prove Star Trek superiorety in every way but speed.

In what episode was it stated or implied that Ha'Taks can travel at 32,000 times light speed?[/QUOTE]