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Originally posted by SoulRe@ver View Post"fear"
lol
I agree. I think the best the Borg could muster would be to somewhat annoy the continuum. One single Q could erase all Borg from existence if they even hinted at trying something.Knowledge is a three edged sword. Your side, their side, and the truth.
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Originally posted by darth_timon View PostThe point is, the weapons in both occasions were operating outside their normal operating parameters. You cannot take such circumstances as a launchpad in any way, because regardless of whether you've been able to repair the damage, if you keep damaging the system from overcharging it you will do permenant damage somewhere along the line. Tetsujin mentioned overclocking a CPU- imagine doing that over and over again, because you want/need to achieve a particular speed. Even if you can mitigate the damage to a degree, you will accelerate the wear and tear on the device much more quickly than through normal use.
Improvements to their normal operating parameters, yes. Not necessarily radical increases in firepower.
The question is, how much more powerful are these progressions, new designs and upgrades.
I do take into account more than visuals- however visuals are at the top of my list, as you can observe something visually and then arrive at conclusions. Dialogue comes into play as a secondary source, and then you have logic, based on those observations and dialogue.
Regarding the Founders' home world, we know it's a world that humans can survive on (how else would Sisko et al have survived when held prisoner there in The Search?). We therefore know it has an atmosphere. There are certain properties of the mantle and planetary structure which are actually quite important to the presence of a stable atmosphere.
Regarding the visuals vs dialogue, there are two ways to reconcile the two here. 1: the characters were simply wrong, and had grossly overestimated the capabilities of their ships. 2: there is evidence to suggest that phasers at least, work via chain reactions and not raw firepower; a chain reaction would explain the damage to the Founders' planet but also explain how we see very little visual evidence for this. This would also explain why we see low firepower (such as in Survivors) be so effective- a chain reaction only requires a kickstart, then the reaction itself takes care of the rest.
I'm not aware of the damage done in What you Leave Behind being the result of ground troops. We've never seen ground troops produce anything like that in any other ground fight on Star Trek either.
The Federation was also vulnerable to Dominion weapons until the DS9 season 5 finale, and the Breen have certainly never demonstrated the ability to beam through shields. Plus, it would seem completely suicidal to land ground troops in such a circumstance- not to mention the possibility of capture.
Then what are we supposed to do? If we cannot agree a baseline to even things like asteroids and planets, then we might as well abandon any attempt to have a debate. I can put forth the idea that the Founders' planet was no more than 10 miles in diameter and that the planet in Beach Head was the size of a small sun, and we can go completely into the realm of endless speculation.
There's a clip of the Enterprise (the size of which is known) entering a chasm in the asteroid. There is enough room inside the asteroid for a ship several hundred metres in length to move around reasonably comfortably, and no one in the episode itself suggests the asteroid is in the double-digits for KM size. The very script of the episode refers to the asteroid as being proto-planetary in nature, and the composition of such asteroids is not unknown to us.
Also how can you say you know the composition of an unknown asteroid in a universe where materials exist that arent present in real life are commonly found on planets. Also the asteroid was said to be likely emitting varying gravimetric an magnetic fluctuations that would overpower the engines of their shuttlecraft which means there must have been more to the asteroid than just simple rock.Knowledge is a three edged sword. Your side, their side, and the truth.
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The flare we see initially on the view screen could still be, based on the size of the star, flare, and vantage point, one which did not come into direct contact with the Enterprise.
It's worth noting that, based on the evidence from the episode, and work from not one but two people, who have both studied the visuals in far more depth than myself, and it's also worth noting that An Ancient did allow for the star to be either B or O: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=84338
There wouldn't need to be any major solar activity for the Hatak to absorb a considerable amount of energy from such a star. Blue giants are far more luminous than our own star and give off more energy as a matter of course.
The visuals don't bear out the idea that a flare hits the E-D's shields, the E-D may have only been caught in the periphery of a flare, if indeed at all.
http://stardestroyer.net/Resources/C...xplosions.html- put in 812000 into the yield box and you get a fireball weighing in at 99.9KM at a minumum. I will again point out that there is no reason to doubt An Ancient's work.
Anubis could have raided the ruins of the Tollan civilisation for other technological secrets. He wouldn't have been wise to assume that he could have stolen only one article of technology. Plus, again, in the other examples, why would such high firepower be necessary? The Goa'uld liked to take prisoners to torture (not the smartest policy, but certainly in fitting with their egotistical nature), so, with the exception of Homecoming, which I still need to see, there is nothing in the orbital bombardment catagory to proof low firepower.
Well as I say, I need to see it before I can pass judgement.Knowledge is a three edged sword. Your side, their side, and the truth.
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How come you singled out my post and didn’t do a general reply to both tetsujin and I?
Remember there’s no rush.
Originally posted by darth_timon View PostThe point is, the weapons in both occasions were operating outside their normal operating parameters. You cannot take such circumstances as a launchpad in any way, because regardless of whether you've been able to repair the damage, if you keep damaging the system from overcharging it you will do permenant damage somewhere along the line. Tetsujin mentioned overclocking a CPU- imagine doing that over and over again, because you want/need to achieve a particular speed. Even if you can mitigate the damage to a degree, you will accelerate the wear and tear on the device much more quickly than through normal use.
You haven’t proven that the upper limit before overload is much lower than what we saw, the fact that the weapon wasn’t entirely destroyed and would be operational a short amount of time after the weapon was fired means it can’t be that much above it‘s maximum useable potential.
No one’s saying these weapons are always used in this way, but like Tetsujin said minor improvements to certain systems could easily allow for this kind of firepower from future vessels and considering the fact that the Enterprise is much weaker than even the next generation of klingon ships their firepower must be even greater than this.
The display of firepower in Silent Enemy is still much greater than anything displayed by either the Ha’Taks or Ori motherships, so I don‘t know why you are still arguing against this, it‘s visual, it proves the point and that should be the end of the discussion.
Improvements to their normal operating parameters, yes. Not necessarily radical increases in firepower.
The question is, how much more powerful are these progressions, new designs and upgrades.
I do take into account more than visuals- however visuals are at the top of my list, as you can observe something visually and then arrive at conclusions. Dialogue comes into play as a secondary source, and then you have logic, based on those observations and dialogue.
It would be absolutely impossible for everyone to be mistaken about the end results of the attack on the Founder’s Homeworld, not with the capabilities of their technology being common knowledge to anyone in the military of each race.
If we are to suspend disbelief it is impossible that the visuals represent what you believe they do.
We even see large shockwaves covering what looked like continental sized portions of the planet.
Regarding the Founders' home world, we know it's a world that humans can survive on (how else would Sisko et al have survived when held prisoner there in The Search?). We therefore know it has an atmosphere. There are certain properties of the mantle and planetary structure which are actually quite important to the presence of a stable atmosphere.
Point here is you don’t know the properties of the planet so you don’t know the effects you should expect to see on Earth is what we should see, since we don’t see what you expect logically the planet isn’t made how you believe it should be.
Tetsujin has mentioned the mantel and when a planet has to be active, so I’ll refer to his points on that issue.
Regarding the visuals vs dialogue, there are two ways to reconcile the two here. 1: the characters were simply wrong, and had grossly overestimated the capabilities of their ships.
2: there is evidence to suggest that phasers at least, work via chain reactions and not raw firepower; a chain reaction would explain the damage to the Founders' planet but also explain how we see very little visual evidence for this.
You can’t just say “there’s evidence for this, that and not present it.
Silent Enemy proves phasers have a lot of power, more than the Ha’Taks and Ori Motherships.
This would also explain why we see low firepower (such as in Survivors) be so effective- a chain reaction only requires a kickstart, then the reaction itself takes care of the rest.
Phasers are a proven raw power weapon because they quickly drill through portions of a planet and obliterate large mountains, something no energy weapon on Stargate has ever been shown to be capable of.
I'm not aware of the damage done in What you Leave Behind being the result of ground troops. We've never seen ground troops produce anything like that in any other ground fight on Star Trek either.
Damar and his troops were attacking the dominion with there hand weapons and explosives.
Explosives were mentioned.
Admiral Ross talks about sending troops down to the planet.
There’s also mention made in that episode of Dominion troops reducing Lakarian City to ashes and killing 2 million people in a matter of moments.
The Federation was also vulnerable to Dominion weapons until the DS9 season 5 finale, and the Breen have certainly never demonstrated the ability to beam through shields. Plus, it would seem completely suicidal to land ground troops in such a circumstance- not to mention the possibility of capture.
It’s only suicidal if they brought no weapons (which given the damage given isn’t possible) and were in such low numbers that they wouldn’t be a match for the federation forces on the planet.
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Then what are we supposed to do? If we cannot agree a baseline to even things like asteroids and planets, then we might as well abandon any attempt to have a debate. I can put forth the idea that the Founders' planet was no more than 10 miles in diameter and that the planet in Beach Head was the size of a small sun, and we can go completely into the realm of endless speculation.
Making stuff up just because it suits this person and that person makes things completely inaccurate.
What you’re suggesting is speculation and nothing more.
There's a clip of the Enterprise (the size of which is known) entering a chasm in the asteroid. There is enough room inside the asteroid for a ship several hundred metres in length to move around reasonably comfortably, and no one in the episode itself suggests the asteroid is in the double-digits for KM size. The very script of the episode refers to the asteroid as being proto-planetary in nature, and the composition of such asteroids is not unknown to us.
Looking at that part of the episode the asteroid doesn’t look that small, it looks very wide as the enterprise is coming towards it.
The flare we see initially on the view screen could still be, based on the size of the star, flare, and vantage point, one which did not come into direct contact with the Enterprise.
The Enterprise wasn’t be rocked as it normally is when it’s shields are being struck by weapons fire, it was later so that should allow us to draw the conclusion that the shields of the ship were being struck by flares other wise Data wouldn’t have mentioned them
It's worth noting that, based on the evidence from the episode, and work from not one but two people, who have both studied the visuals in far more depth than myself, and it's also worth noting that An Ancient did allow for the star to be either B or O: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=84338
There wouldn't need to be any major solar activity for the Hatak to absorb a considerable amount of energy from such a star. Blue giants are far more luminous than our own star and give off more energy as a matter of course.
The visuals don't bear out the idea that a flare hits the E-D's shields, the E-D may have only been caught in the periphery of a flare, if indeed at all.
http://stardestroyer.net/Resources/C...xplosions.html- put in 812000 into the yield box and you get a fireball weighing in at 99.9KM at a minumum. I will again point out that there is no reason to doubt An Ancient's work.
So I don’t trust that calculator.
There’s also the fact that An Ancient calculated the wrong star for his information as Tetsujin pointed out, so yes I doubt his work.
Anubis could have raided the ruins of the Tollan civilisation for other technological secrets. He wouldn't have been wise to assume that he could have stolen only one article of technology. Plus, again, in the other examples, why would such high firepower be necessary? The Goa'uld liked to take prisoners to torture (not the smartest policy, but certainly in fitting with their egotistical nature), so, with the exception of Homecoming, which I still need to see, there is nothing in the orbital bombardment catagory to proof low firepower.
The system lords have had plenty of situations where even 1% of the firepower capabilities you believe they are able to achieve would have been useful like uninhabited planets where SG1 has been present and exploring ruins yet they never fired off even a fraction of the power of weapons you claim they could achieve.
After years of being a thorn in their sides they wanted to destroy SG teams yet they didn’t, they supposedly could have efficiently according to you, but they never did, if we apply your favourite deductive tool Occam’s Razor then we’re left with only one possibility that they couldn’t achieve those yields you believe them to be capable of.
You keep inferring what the Goauld’s intent is, yet you provide no evidence for it, you need to prove it, Tetsujin and I have already provided occasions when there was no motive other than destruction.
What other pieces of technology besides the phase bombs would be of use to Anubis?
I can’t think of any, since the ion cannons were not powerful enough to be a threat to his shields, he had ascended knowledge and more advanced Ancient tech at his disposal.
Well as I say, I need to see it before I can pass judgement.Last edited by Rise Of The Phoenix; 01 November 2010, 02:23 PM.
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Originally posted by Giantevilhead View PostAny SG race with the technological level of the Goa'uld can beat the average Star Trek race (Klingons, Romulans, Federation, etc.).The world hath known no greater love than this, to give one's life for his friends. John 15:34
The banning of images in SIGs suck.
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Originally posted by DHD View PostThen you have the Borg who are very much like the replicator, except for one major difference, Where as the Replicators will kill everyone and anything in there way, the borg will assimilate you and gain your knowledge, which I may add is more powerful then any weapon. And a perk they can keep up with any SG ship thanks to Transwarp conduits.
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Originally posted by RJLCyberPunk View PostIndeed, the weapons in SG completely Pwn most of what the Trek universe can dish out and I have no clue as to how they got into the conclusion that SG Earth could be defeated by Trek ships when those people themselves admit those very same trek ships would be defeated by Asgard ships and Earth ships have Asgard shields and weaponry so can anyone say there is egg on your face right there.
If the later ships in ST can destroys portions of a planet and a vessel from 200 years before the most recent ships can do something that even one of the most powerful ships in SG can't do then how in the hell are SG ships gonna as you say "completely PWN most of what the ST universe can dish out"?
The fact we have Asgard shields and weapons means nothing, when the effects of those weapons either shown or described on the show are no where near as high as the capabilties of those races in ST.
People who favor the SG side also completely forget the fact that most of the main technologically advanced races in ST each have numbers that would vastly outnumber the entire SG universe as shown on the shows.
The only area ST may lack in is the propulsion area, but in both defensive and offensive parts they are clearly superior.
All evidence for this has been provided over the last few pages.
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Originally posted by prometheus unbound View Postum one word NAQUADRIA
As far as using it for weapons like the mark 9, we've only seen a couple of those weapons, there's nothing indicating earth can produce high quanities of them.
Originally posted by Ark Cammando View PostThe Replicators designed by the ancients can also suck the knowledge from your brain. They also don't get killed by engine coolant.
I'm not saying it would be effect against Reps, but you can't use it as part of an argument unless you know the answer for sure, which you don't.
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Originally posted by Rise Of The Phoenix View PostWhich earth couldn't make work properly in hyperdrive technology, not if they pass near a black hole in hyperspace.
As far as using it for weapons like the mark 9, we've only seen a couple of those weapons, there's nothing indicating earth can produce high quanities of them.
Do you know what that engine coolant is composed of?
I'm not saying it would be effect against Reps, but you can't use it as part of an argument unless you know the answer for sure, which you don't.
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Originally posted by Akai View PostThe warp core coolant wouldn't harm Replicators in the slightest. It didn't even harm Data (it dissolved the organic tissue that had been grafted onto him but left him otherwise unharmed). They stated in the movie that it would pretty much liquify any biological material on contact...but didn't really do much to anything else. It killed the Borg because they are not pure machines, they are cyborgs, and are heavily dependent on their biological components. The Replicators are not, they are purely machines.
Like I said before I'm not saying that the coolant would effect the reps , you need to prove that it wouldn't, since that coolant hasn't been used in SG against them you have no proof it would or wouldn't work, so please stop saying it's a fact that the reps wouldn't be effected by it, they're made of entirely different materials than those in Star Trek.
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Anyone read the fanfiction at fanfiction.net called Destinys child? That is a fanfic about star trek ship comming into our universe to save Tollana or something and find there way back. I read it but the author made the Goauld way to weak. The Goauld weponry still uses wepons from the Romulan war and the Gouald could be destroyed by two photon torpedos.
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Sounds like that author made the Goauld too strong to me.
Remember the Phase Cannons of the NX-01 enterprise could level a mountain on overload with two beams, a feat that could be reproduced later than the original firing attempt without too much damage.
A ship from say the original series or Kirk movie eras should be considerably more powerful.
Since weaponry from much later in the ST universe's time period should progressively improve a few decades should yield quite significant improvements.
Torpedos are always considered a more powerful weapon to phasers.
If the NX-01 can do something even Ori motherships have trouble achieving on a smaller mountain I think weapons from further in the future would easily penetrate Goauld shields and destroy a Ha'tak with a single torpedo, even from the original series.
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