Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[darth_timon]

I have to note that Star Trek weapons have been shown to disintegrate matter on multiple occasions, a number of which are listed in this link:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser

So where targets are viewed from the orbit of say a planet you may not see huge fireballs or anything like you would expect to see from regular nukes.

They are efficient, we've seen up close vaporization of many targets, yet no huge fireballs or anything of the sort, because that's how the producers have chosen to represent their creations.
There's an in-universe explanation.

If we're dealing with massive damage to a planet's surface, where said surface has had nearly a third blasted away, we should still see serious damage. You're going to be unleashing huge magma eruptions, you're going to get massive atmosphere effects from the heat of vapourising so much material- and since torpedoes were also used in that attack, we should still see explosive effects as well.

It's been some time since I saw the episode of DS9 where the breen attacked Earth, I'll have to check it out, but I wouldn't be suprized if the producers only intended for the breen to destroy buildings or miltary targets.

Which with the sort of firepower on display, they would have failed utterly to achieve.

When you have the chance to deal your enemy a mortal blow (such as by destroying their military headquarters and primary training facilities in one swoop) you take it. If Hitler had possessed the chance to completely destroy every political and military target in London in 1941, don't you think he would have seized that chance?

I would like someone to explain to me how weapons from a race such as the ori, which are considered by many to be among the most powerful races in the Stargate universe, well how they do nothing but destroy a village and leave nothing but scorch marks on the ground in The Line In The Sand.

The logical reason is that the Ori vessels were, at the time, completely without back-up and wasting firepower unnecessarily is a good way of draining your reserves and leaving you more vulnerable later on. Of course, I could turn your own position on it's head and say 'the writers could have portrayed something different, but chose not to'. I however, consider such positions to be a cop-out.

In fact if Goauld weapons are so powerful compared to those of Star Trek races then why is it Ha'Taks have never been actually shown to do any damage to the ground around targets they are attemting to destroy.

Like I have mentioned before, the Goa'uld both like to scavenge for technology (which you can't do if you've pulverised a civilisation to dust) and they like to lord it over their opponents. They want to have worshippers- they enjoy being hailed as gods. Which is impossible if all your potential followers are dead.

No craters are seen from what I can recall, the Borg left a huge crater in the ground that used to have a Starfleet colony sitting on top of it in Best Of Both Worlds.

A crater which was not that large when you use the human beings standing beside for scale.

Why is it Wraith weapons don't leave a planet completely uninhabitable when they've struck a planet's surface time and again?
Why did they not boil away the ocean abive atlantis during the Ancient/Wraith war?

Same reason as the Goa'uld- they want to keep their food source relatively intact and they want to capture Atlantis, not destroy it.

Since no one's allowed to use the reasonable explaination of "it's the writers choice to display the consequences in that way" or Budget issues aren't allowed, then there has to be some in-universe reasoning for why that happens, you can't have it both ways, you need to explain that if you want people to explain why things happen a certain way Star Trek.

I don't see to have it both ways. By taking the visuals, you can apply the same methodology to both.

I would also like to know why my post was completely ingored, I dealt with every part of your's Darth, yet you have ignored mine?

I will also say that it doesn't matter what we like or dislike about each show's canon, if a particular fact is made clear to us about each show then that is canon.
Like I've pointed out above Stargate doesn't always show things how they would appear in real life.

My apologies if I missed a post of yours. I try to respond to them all, but I don't always get the time.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

If something happens in the timeline of events that are playing out on a show then that is valid canon for the story, whether it be a description of something that is based on sensor readings which are being described to the viewers of the show or other characters at that time or visuals that are being shown to the viewers, both are important, no one is saying that visuals aren't important, but when something is clearly being told to the viewers, like the "30% of the planet's crust was destroyed" statement well you can't just dispute it, it actually happened in the story, hasn't been taking back by TPTB.
It's fact that the Romulan and Cardassian fleet in TDIC did do that, proves how powerful those ships are, same with the Enterprise NX-01 leveling a mountain (which no Stargate vessel has been shown to be capable of) and the fact that later Federation ships are more advanced.
Put those facts together with the fact that even on their own the Federation has thousands of ships, so do the Klingons, Romulans, the Cardassians (well I think they're unknown, put probably comparable to the other races), the Dominion too have massive fleets and the Borg have (according to Scorpion) millions, along with the unknown numbers of alien races throughout the Delta quandrant and it's clear the Star Trek universe could maul the Stargate universe if they were present in the Star Trek universe's Milky Way.

I don't doubt a group such as the federation would be able to reproduce hyperdrive technology if they captured something like a Goauld cargo ship.
I also have no doubt that if the Federation got their hands on a Naquadah or Naquadria mine that they could easily upgrade the output of Photon or Quantum Torpedoes.

I see that a lot of the apparently superior weaponry of Stargate (which has yet to be proven comparing the entire canon of both shows) is based on the use of Naquadah or Naquadria, there's no reason why Starfleet or any race from the Star Trek universe couldn't use such a material to produce similar or better effect.

My perspective is that all canon should be taken into consideration, not just what we chose to like or dislike and when you use all of the canon from both shows Star Trek comes out on top in this argument.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

If we're dealing with massive damage to a planet's surface, where said surface has had nearly a third blasted away, we should still see serious damage. You're going to be unleashing huge magma eruptions, you're going to get massive atmosphere effects from the heat of vapourising so much material- and since torpedoes were also used in that attack, we should still see explosive effects as well.

With that particular incident I think the founders were using some kind of technology to fool the Romulans and Cardassians into thinking they were there.
Most of the shots fired at the planet were from Beam weapons, very few Torpedoes were used, plus it was said that there was no change in life form readings so perhaps some kind of holographic technology was being used to visually disguise the fact that there weren't really any shape shifters there.
Since the founders were like an ocean on that planet, the holograms were probably covering the damage to that part of it.
With that particular event it is explainable why don't see what you're describing should happen.

Which with the sort of firepower on display, they would have failed utterly to achieve.
When you have the chance to deal your enemy a mortal blow (such as by destroying their military headquarters and primary training facilities in one swoop) you take it. If Hitler had possessed the chance to completely destroy every political and military target in London in 1941, don't you think he would have seized that chance?

I can't really be objective about that particular episode because I haven't seen it in ages, I can't remember what happened exactly, I'll have a look at it when I get the chance.

The logical reason is that the Ori vessels were, at the time, completely without back-up and wasting firepower unnecessarily is a good way of draining your reserves and leaving you more vulnerable later on. Of course, I could turn your own position on it's head and say 'the writers could have portrayed something different, but chose not to'. I however, consider such positions to be a cop-out.

That doesn't make any sense, there was no indication the Ori had any problem with power reserves.
There's no reasonable explaination when the Ori clearly have no problem generating the power they needed for their vessels, they could have taken their time and sent more ships later if power was a problem and greater numbers were necessary.
They had no problem plowing through Ha'Taks with a single shot from their main weapons, so the producers majorly stuffed up the effects such weapons should have on the ground.
There isn't any in-universe explaination that makes any sense there, not when both Ha'Tak shields and hulls mean nothing to Ori Motherships.
If they have no problem completely obliterating Ha'taks or unshielded 304s then they shou'd be easily capable of creating a crater of some size in the ground.

Like I have mentioned before, the Goa'uld both like to scavenge for technology (which you can't do if you've pulverised a civilisation to dust) and they like to lord it over their opponents. They want to have worshippers- they enjoy being hailed as gods. Which is impossible if all your potential followers are dead.

They wanted to destroy SG1 or Humans from SG teams, yet no significant damage is done to ground where our guys stand, time and time again they have trouble hitting our units and they're left able to excape.
It's all for plot convenience, there's no reasonable in-universe explaination for it, other than weak weapons that if we go by what we see would be backed up by on-screen evidence and terrible targeting capabilties.

A crater which was not that large when you use the human beings standing beside for scale.

There was still a crater, no Stargate ships, with supposedly superior power to Star Trek ones have been able to do the same.

Same reason as the Goa'uld- they want to keep their food source relatively intact and they want to capture Atlantis, not destroy it.

I was talking about the effects such weapons should have on the atmosphere of a planet when fired in massive numbers needed against Atlantis.
I never said anything about actually destroying the city.
The Wraith would still have some Human worlds to feed on.

I don't see to have it both ways. By taking the visuals, you can apply the same methodology to both.

Visuals aren't always so reliable, not for a broad understanding of canon and what these races are capable of.
Taking everything into consideration is important.
As I've pointed out above things in Stargate don't always make sense, they aren't always realistic.
Goauld, Wraith and Ori ships according to onscreen evidence aren't really that powerful when you look at the visuals, yet they can bring down things like 304s (well maybe not the Goauld's), the conculsion we'd have to draw there if we take visuals at face value is they are very weak compared to Star Trek ones, which have been shown to have no problem damage planets and they take some time to take each other out on regular occasions.

My apologies if I missed a post of yours. I try to respond to them all, but I don't always get the time.

No worries, I just wondered why you hadn't replied, I understand.

[darth_timon]

If something happens in the timeline of events that are playing out on a show then that is valid canon for the story, whether it be a description of something that is based on sensor readings which are being described to the viewers of the show or other characters at that time or visuals that are being shown to the viewers, both are important, no one is saying that visuals aren't important, but when something is clearly being told to the viewers, like the "30% of the planet's crust was destroyed" statement well you can't just dispute it, it actually happened in the story, hasn't been taking back by TPTB.

The trouble is, not only do the visuals and dialogue not mesh together (in fact, they clearly contradict one another), we even have dialogue from TDIC that contradicts what the Romulan officer stated- the following is from the transcript of TDIC...

TAIN
(to Garak)
Our plan is to wait until we've
entered orbit of the Founders' planet,
then decloak and begin a massive
bombardment.

LOVOK
Computer analysis indicates that the
planet's crust will be destroyed
within one hour, and the mantle within
five.

GARAK
That should more than take care of
the Founders...

If it would take an hour to destroy the crust, they would never have been able to destroy 30% of it in their opening volley. At 30% per volley they could have the surface completely destroyed in a matter of minutes!

This is why visuals are more trustworthy. If dialogue stands in contradiction with both visuals and additional dialogue, taking it as gospel becomes problematic at best.

It's fact that the Romulan and Cardassian fleet in TDIC did do that, proves how powerful those ships are, same with the Enterprise NX-01 leveling a mountain (which no Stargate vessel has been shown to be capable of) and the fact that later Federation ships are more advanced.
Put those facts together with the fact that even on their own the Federation has thousands of ships, so do the Klingons, Romulans, the Cardassians (well I think they're unknown, put probably comparable to the other races), the Dominion too have massive fleets and the Borg have (according to Scorpion) millions, along with the unknown numbers of alien races throughout the Delta quandrant and it's clear the Star Trek universe could maul the Stargate universe if they were present in the Star Trek universe's Milky Way.

Leaving aside that the NX-01's own feat can in fact be brought into question (but I'll leave that to one side for the moment), there is still the pesky matter of 'Skin of Evil' and 'The Changing Face of Evil', not to mention events from TNG's 'Pegasus', where the Ent-D would have used most of her torpedoes to destroy a 3KM, partially hollow asteroid. All three episodes clearly point to low kiloton firepower at the very best, and it's difficult to find justifications for such low firepower, when you consider that in 'CFOE' the Breen could have dealt the Federation a mortal blow, and in 'Pegasus' they were trying to destroy the asteroid and the ship trapped within it, so that the Romulans couldn't get them.

As far as numbers go, this is the only advantage Star Trek forces have. In terms of speed, endurance and firepower, they are outmatched- as careful analysis of visual evidence, as well as supporting dialogue, and situation proves.

I don't doubt a group such as the federation would be able to reproduce hyperdrive technology if they captured something like a Goauld cargo ship.
I also have no doubt that if the Federation got their hands on a Naquadah or Naquadria mine that they could easily upgrade the output of Photon or Quantum Torpedoes.

This is pure speculation. Despite understanding the concept of transwarp drive as far back as ST3, the Federation has never been able to upgrade to transwarp. In fact, one failed test and they gave up! Then there's all the goodies and info Voyager brought home- quantum slipstream drive for example, which, come the events of 'Nemesis', over a year later in the timeline, was not in operation, even on the Federation flagship, despite Voyager being able to make it partially work beforehand!

Much is made of the Federation's ability to reverse engineer technology, but it is over-stated. Goa'uld hyperdrive is far more sophisticated than warp drive and even if they could duplicate it, they would never be able to do it quickly enough to save themselves.

I see that a lot of the apparently superior weaponry of Stargate (which has yet to be proven comparing the entire canon of both shows) is based on the use of Naquadah or Naquadria, there's no reason why Starfleet or any race from the Star Trek universe couldn't use such a material to produce similar or better effect.

Goa'uld Hataks, with 1.3GT cannons at a minimum (as proven from SG1's 'Beach Head'), may or may not be the result of naquadah- but it is still very much an assumption that Starfleet could use naquadah to power their weapons. SG Earth couldn't actually achieve this without help from the Asgard, so there's no reason to assume the Federation would enjoy instant success.

My perspective is that all canon should be taken into consideration, not just what we chose to like or dislike and when you use all of the canon from both shows Star Trek comes out on top in this argument.

I don't seek to ignore canon- I seek to justify and put in context what we see on screen. If there is a conflict between visuals and dialogue, I prefer to use visuals, as visuals are no less canon than dialogue, and at least they give us something we can measure.

I'll reply to your other post later- my baby girl is in need of cheering up!

[darth_timon]

With that particular incident I think the founders were using some kind of technology to fool the Romulans and Cardassians into thinking they were there.
Most of the shots fired at the planet were from Beam weapons, very few Torpedoes were used, plus it was said that there was no change in life form readings so perhaps some kind of holographic technology was being used to visually disguise the fact that there weren't really any shape shifters there.
Since the founders were like an ocean on that planet, the holograms were probably covering the damage to that part of it.
With that particular event it is explainable why don't see what you're describing should happen.

There is logical reason to believe that the Romulan and Cardassian ships had their sensors fudged, but a holographic projector of size and power would be hard to miss, and could quite easily be destroyed or disabled by the sort of firepower that was supposedly on display.

[QuoteI can't really be objective about that particular episode because I haven't seen it in ages, I can't remember what happened exactly, I'll have a look at it when I get the chance.[/quote]

Okies.

That doesn't make any sense, there was no indication the Ori had any problem with power reserves.
There's no reasonable explaination when the Ori clearly have no problem generating the power they needed for their vessels, they could have taken their time and sent more ships later if power was a problem and greater numbers were necessary.
They had no problem plowing through Ha'Taks with a single shot from their main weapons, so the producers majorly stuffed up the effects such weapons should have on the ground.
There isn't any in-universe explaination that makes any sense there, not when both Ha'Tak shields and hulls mean nothing to Ori Motherships.
If they have no problem completely obliterating Ha'taks or unshielded 304s then they shou'd be easily capable of creating a crater of some size in the ground.

It makes sense for the Ori to conserve power, if only because the laws of thermodynamics tell us power sources are finite. Blasting away when you don't need to is wasteful, plus they may have wanted to return to that world one day, to colonize it. That's a rationalization for you.

They wanted to destroy SG1 or Humans from SG teams, yet no significant damage is done to ground where our guys stand, time and time again they have trouble hitting our units and they're left able to excape.
It's all for plot convenience, there's no reasonable in-universe explaination for it, other than weak weapons that if we go by what we see would be backed up by on-screen evidence and terrible targeting capabilties.

The only immediate example I can think of where SG1 are coming under direct fire is in The Warrior, where Lord Yu lets them escape.

There was still a crater, no Stargate ships, with supposedly superior power to Star Trek ones have been able to do the same.

See one of my earlier posts for calculations based off Beach Head. Also see the Atlantis episode First Strike. Both episodes give us clear evidence of far superior firepower for Stargate.

I was talking about the effects such weapons should have on the atmosphere of a planet when fired in massive numbers needed against Atlantis.
I never said anything about actually destroying the city.
The Wraith would still have some Human worlds to feed on.

There is a difference of scale here. With TDIC, we're looking at what should be a scene with massive atmospheric disruption and huge amounts of lava and ejecta, regardless of whether phasers or torpedoes are responsible. With the Wraith, there is at least the rationale that they would dial down their firepower so as to not accidentally destroy Atlantis, and 1.3GT will not produce the same visual effects that TDIC should have.

Visuals aren't always so reliable, not for a broad understanding of canon and what these races are capable of.
Taking everything into consideration is important.
As I've pointed out above things in Stargate don't always make sense, they aren't always realistic.
Goauld, Wraith and Ori ships according to onscreen evidence aren't really that powerful when you look at the visuals, yet they can bring down things like 304s (well maybe not the Goauld's), the conculsion we'd have to draw there if we take visuals at face value is they are very weak compared to Star Trek ones, which have been shown to have no problem damage planets and they take some time to take each other out on regular occasions.

[No worries, I just wondered why you hadn't replied, I understand.

Dialogue can be in error too. In those circumstances, what do we go with? Personally, I prefer to go with what I can observe, and those observations tell me that the forces of the Gateverse would easily defeat their Trek counterparts.

[Tetsujin]

Darth_Timon, if you yourself state that if visuals and dialogue contradict then it would be problematic to base an argument on them. The MOJORITY of SG technology contradicts visuals with dialogue. The fact that you are somehow stating now that a Goa'uld Ha'tak cannon blast can fire up to 1.6Gt when it was stated before that it was 200Mt is interesting. Even the 200Mt figure in unsubstantiated and has been proven incorrect by taking into account the events of the Episode beach head where the maximum yield of the Ha'tak vessels would have been used but the math does not equate to 200Mt per shot and is nowhere near 1Gt per shot (Based on my math where the ships dont for some reason stop firing when they are off screen).

If someone were to make a space battle as accurately on screen as you would want it, it would be boring to watch because we would not be able to watch ships at all (because of moving at fractions of the speed of light), we would only see a bright screen the entire time(from numerous megaton+ explosions), and there would be no sounds (since the battle takes place in a vacuum). The arguments you have made are based on you wanting stargate to win and have no evidence to support the weapon yields for SG other than visuals and dialogue that often does not match.

To prove this, I will have you address the Goa'uld Ha'tak energy blast versus the Biliskner class power output. I used the 200Mt figure and concluded that the Goa'uld blast is manytimes greater than the Biliskner class generator output. Since you are claiming they can output over a Gigaton per shot now that number has drastically risen. How would it makes sense that a Ha'tak has more power in a single shot than an Asgard ship can output in total. When it was common knowledge that a Biliskner can easily defeat a ha'tak before the Ascended knowledge upgrade by Anubis how does this make sense? You claimed that you forgot to reply to this before so I look forward to hearing your explanation.

Here are some numbers I have gathered.


4,000,000,000,000J = 4 x 10^12 = Biliskner class maximum output (Thor- SGG1 "Nemesis")

1,000,000,000,000,000J = 1 x 10^15 = 1MT (Physics)

64,000,000,000,000,000J = 6.4 x 10^16 = Standard Photon Toprpedo (Physics on direct 1:1 1.5kg M/AM annihilation)

200,000,000,000,000,000J = 2 x 10^17 = Supposed Ha'tak 200Mt Blast Yeild (supposed)

1,300,000,000,000,000,000J = 1.3 x 10^18 = Suppsed Ha'tak 1.3Gt Blast Yeild (Supposed)

12,750,000,000,000,000,000J = 1.275 x 10^19 = Galaxy Glass warp core output (TNG: "True Q")

[Math Boy]

Your still missing transwarp, Borg transwarp hubs (similar to stargates except you find them around neutron stars ), Warp 10 (but not practical, it meant Tom Paris occupied the entire galaxy and every point simultaneously and caused him to evolve).

But the my favourite is the power of the Traveler which threw the enterprise to the far side of Triangulum galaxy 2.7 million lightyears away, then a second trip more than 700,000 lightyears away and as far as "over billion light years" from the Milky Way whilst never exceed warp 1.5. A billion lightyears, billion with a B!!! BEAT THAT!! Like i said before; Anything Stargate has done and can do, Trek has already done before and better too.

the Destiny ship in SGU is at the end of the universe. Tens of Billions of light years away with a remote control navigation that pilots itself with thousands of other ships all across hundreds of galaxies mapping the universe. Now tell what ship in ST mapp the universe. NONE!!!!!! Because they cant even leave the MW. ST can't compare to the ancients on even a fraction of their knowledge. The borg may have a collective of knowledge but not even them can fathom the Ancients Knowledge. The Ancients have been around for millions of years exploring the galaxy. Eveybody in ST hasnt even been arond for 10,000 years. The city of Atlantis is more powerful than anything ST can throw at it. It has three ZPM's and drone missles that can penetrate a ship even if it has its shields at maxiumum. Not to mention hundreds of jumpers with cloaked technology and drone missles.


OOOooh warp 10 isnt crap. The Replicators took a Hy'tak that goes 32k light and increased its speed 800x. I dont think the borg can even do that. The replicators dont need tech to get smart they already have the knowledge. They just need ships to get bigger. The borg needs organic host to get bigger. All the replicators need is metal. The replicators could outnumber the borg and anyone in ST in a matter of days . No one in ST can do that.

And Q. The Ori ascended dont have rules. They will kill you and they dont have to snap fingers. They just think about it. On top that they have the same knowledge as the ancients since their just a faction of the anciooents. They have superior shields with supieror weapons. Three ori ships took out a fleet of Hy'taks and two Daedalus clas ships that had Asgard shields in a matter of seconds. What do you think they will do to ST??? Not to mention the Ori can build Super Gates. That can transport an armada in a matter of seconds from a galaxy thats millions of milestwo a way that is powered by two singularities. I don't think anyone in ST can beat a one prior let alone multiple. on top of their warriors with the spear energy weapons at the same time.

The wraith may have no shields but they have dense hulls but if I remeber their was a wraith ship that aquired a zpm that made their hull incredibly dense that it was indestructible and increased their weapons ten fold along with their speed not to mention wraith hive ships can regenerate. And have darts that have beam transports to collect enemies or transport a batallion of soliders in one dart and their are hundreds of darts on one hive ship. And the fact that they absorb life force so tht at includes every one in ST except Q. And when the wraith fought the Ancients their were hundreds of hive ships. And also their are millions of wraith not to mention their all psychic.


The asgard have a fleet of ships not a few dozen . They inhabit many many worlds. They have far superior shields than ST and a variety of weapons which they can replicate in seconds.

The Nox are peaceful but they have powers where they can disable you that includes Q. They can put you on a planet and cloak your ship and make your weapons disspear or not work. You can not harm them.

The only reason that ST would win against earth ships is bc their still in their infancy stage with building ships but they could not beat them one on one. Deadalus ships have asgard beam weapons and I'm talking about the newly improved asgard weapons plus tomahawk cruise missle s and railguns and superior shieldas. The same two Daedalus ships that destroyed over 30 Aurora class replicator ships by themselves.

The borg has transwarp hubs so that means they have to stop every so often. Daedalus and Asgard and Ancients and Ori just go from A to B no stops required and over lon ger distances.
g
The Go'auld Have 600 Hy'taks in their prime not to mention hundreds of Al'ktesh and lots of death glides and scout ships that have weapons and cloaking technology.

Then the tolan that have phase shift tech with naqueda bombs that can phase through shields and blow anything up no matter how strong your shields are or how big your ship is or how many ships you have.

Anubis has powerful ships at his disposable and drone fighters that can absorb any energy based weapon and armor piercing bullets not even the kinetic energy of a hellfire missle can kill it. If it came down to a hand to hand fight with a drone and a borg it would be drone cause their faster and they also have personal cloaking devices.

Socar has many Hy'taks and a large army and a energy based laser that can penetrate anything.

[Tetsujin]

the Destiny ship in SGU is at the end of the universe. Tens of Billions of light years away with a remote control navigation that pilots itself with thousands of other ships all across hundreds of galaxies mapping the universe. Now tell what ship in ST mapp the universe. NONE!!!!!! Because they cant even leave the MW. ST can't compare to the ancients on even a fraction of their knowledge. The borg may have a collective of knowledge but not even them can fathom the Ancients Knowledge. The Ancients have been around for millions of years exploring the galaxy. Eveybody in ST hasnt even been arond for 10,000 years. The city of Atlantis is more powerful than anything ST can throw at it. It has three ZPM's and drone missles that can penetrate a ship even if it has its shields at maximum. Not to mention hundreds of jumpers with cloaked technology and drone missles. The federation also has cloaking technology and matter phase technology but dont utilize it due to a treaty with the Romulans

Yeah they cant leave the milky way. The story wasn't meant for them to to leave their galaxy under normal circumstances -_- hence the galactic barrier. Its autopilot, very smart autopilot, but not that impressive overall relatively. If a species have been around millions of years longer than you, its stands to reason that they would know more so why does that even need to be brought up? Also drone weapons and Lantean shielding has proven to be effective against SG technology so far with the plasma beam weapon (similar to a phaser) has been shown to even defeat Lantean warship shields. City ships shields are not invincible they are just super efficient and have a huge power reserve thanks to the ZPMs. It has never been shown how the plasma beam weapon of the Asgard would fair against a City-ships shielding so how can you make a statement about a similar weapon (phasers) proving ineffective? The Federation also has cloaking technology and matter phase technology but just doesnt utilize it due to a treaty with the Romulans. SG species are bound by very little inter-species politics or treaties of any kind therefore has unlimited room to expand weapon technology in whatever way they deem fit.

OOOooh warp 10 isnt crap. The Replicators took a Hy'tak that goes 32k light and increased its speed 800x. I dont think the borg can even do that. The replicators dont need tech to get smart they already have the knowledge. They just need ships to get bigger. The borg needs organic host to get bigger. All the replicators need is metal. The replicators could outnumber the borg and anyone in ST in a matter of days . No one in ST can do that.

So existing in all points in the universe(omnipresence) cant compare to moving thousands of time faster than light? Seems like an illogical statement to me. The replicators are like the borg in that they took technology from others and modified/improved upon it. They are not inherently smarter than the Borg. No one knows what the full capabilities of the Borg are, they are kept in check by the writers simply because it would end the story if they assimilated everyone, which they could do to the Alpha Quadrant had they attacked in full force in TNG time span.

And Q. The Ori ascended dont have rules. They will kill you and they dont have to snap fingers. They just think about it. On top that they have the same knowledge as the ancients since their just a faction of the anciooents. They have superior shields with supieror weapons. Three ori ships took out a fleet of Hy'taks and two Daedalus clas ships that had Asgard shields in a matter of seconds. What do you think they will do to ST??? Not to mention the Ori can build Super Gates. That can transport an armada in a matter of seconds from a galaxy thats millions of milestwo a way that is powered by two singularities. I don't think anyone in ST can beat a one prior let alone multiple. on top of their warriors with the spear energy weapons at the same time.

The Ori dont factor into this discussion and neither do any other Ascended beings and their advanced technology because it comes from a place that no one can top. If you had a contest between the Q and the Ori the Q would win because their powers are conceivably limitless and the Ori are not (which is why they need people to worship them to make themselves stronger). All ascendeds the Q included lead to a place of irrationality and have no place in a discussion about what corporeal beings are capable of.

The Ascended beings in SG have more power and knowledge yes, but the Q can do WHATEVER THEY WANT PERIOD. The finger snapping is just an acting thing. They have been shown to exercise their powers without any visual cues.

The wraith may have no shields but they have dense hulls but if I remeber their was a wraith ship that aquired a zpm that made their hull incredibly dense that it was indestructible and increased their weapons ten fold along with their speed not to mention wraith hive ships can regenerate. And have darts that have beam transports to collect enemies or transport a batallion of soliders in one dart and their are hundreds of darts on one hive ship. And the fact that they absorb life force so tht at includes every one in ST except Q. And when the wraith fought the Ancients their were hundreds of hive ships. And also their are millions of wraith not to mention their all psychic.

The Wraith have no advantage without the technology of other species. Using the abilities of the 1 hiveship with a ZPM is not indicative of standard Wraith capabilities so what that one ship was capable of is irrelevant. A standard Wraith hive-ship stands near the bottom of the technology totem pole. I am not even sure if one could Defeat a Ha'tak without the ZPM advantage.

All species with transportation technology could theoretically use this ability for massive troop transport or stasis but the wraith are the only one who seemed to have deemed it useful enough to develop it. I also do not see how the Wraith ability to drain the life force from a person comes into play in a ship to ship combat scenario since the wraith do not have direct beaming technology.

The asgard have a fleet of ships not a few dozen . They inhabit many many worlds. They have far superior shields than ST and a variety of weapons which they can replicate in seconds.

The federation has a fleet of thousands of ships, although I dont understand how fleet size matters in a 1 on 1 engagement. Far superior shields is your opinion and they have not been shown to fully replicate any of their own weapons. Although they could most likely replicate the Tau'ri's ballistic infantry weapons entirely.

The Nox are peaceful but they have powers where they can disable you that includes Q. They can put you on a planet and cloak your ship and make your weapons disspear or not work. You can not harm them.

I doubt entirely that a Nox would be capable of doing ANYTHING to an ascended being let alone a Q. They can do that to people less advanced than them yes, but it has not been proven that they are more advanced than the species of ST. Nor has it been stated how they make weapons inoperable and it might have been easy to counter for a species more advanced than the Goa'uld or Tau'ri.

The only reason that ST would win against earth ships is bc their still in their infancy stage with building ships but they could not beat them one on one. Deadalus ships have asgard beam weapons and I'm talking about the newly improved asgard weapons plus tomahawk cruise missle s and railguns and superior shieldas. The same two Daedalus ships that destroyed over 30 Aurora class replicator ships by themselves.

The Tau'ri are far weaker than you think. They use ASGARD shielding, ASGARD beam weapons, ASGARD hyperdrives, most likely ASGARD sensors. Without the interference and help of the Asgard the Tau'ri would still be massively less technologically advanced than the Goa'uld in all regards since the Tau'ri have not even begun to mass produce ANY DEW's at all.

The borg has transwarp hubs so that means they have to stop every so often. Daedalus and Asgard and Ancients and Ori just go from A to B no stops required and over lon ger distances.

The Borg have transwarp hubs yes, but where did you read they have to stop at all before reaching their destination? They also can use transwarp technology generated and sustained entirely by the ship itself so the hubs are just a means of more efficient and faster travel analogous to running or using a bike instead.

The Go'auld Have 600 Hy'taks in their prime not to mention hundreds of Al'ktesh and lots of death glides and scout ships that have weapons and cloaking technology.

Again fleet numbers dont matter. Also not EVERY Goa'uld commands that many ships if any do. Each Major alpha quadrant race commands thousands of ships, and supposedly the Dominion commands a great deal more than any one race individually.

Then the tolan that have phase shift tech with naqueda bombs that can phase through shields and blow anything up no matter how strong your shields are or how big your ship is or how many ships you have.

Again the Federeation also has phase cloaking technology but dont use it due to a treaty with the Romulans. Also many raced in ST have displayed shield and or matter penetration weapons technology.

Anubis has powerful ships at his disposable and drone fighters that can absorb any energy based weapon and armor piercing bullets not even the kinetic energy of a hellfire missle can kill it. If it came down to a hand to hand fight with a drone and a borg it would be drone cause their faster and they also have personal cloaking devices.

Anubis uses technology that was beyond his means as a Goa'uld and could only technically have acquired so is allowed to use his ascended knowledge to build it. Drones absorb SG energy weapon weapons.

Socar has many Hy'taks and a large army and a energy based laser that can penetrate anything.[/QUOTE]

You seem to be illogically biased in your opinions and from the amount of mistakes in your comment and the content of your comment seem to have little interest in actually backing up your statements and having a rational debate. I would please ask you to keep unsubstantiated or "fanboy" posts to an absolute minimum and stick to arguments that can be backed up and/or proven.

[Tetsujin]

Sorry I posted the wrong number on the 1 megaton to joules equivalency . it should be

4,000,000,000,000,000J = 4 x 10^15 = 1MT (Physics)

All the other numbers should be correct.

[darth_timon]

Darth_Timon, if you yourself state that if visuals and dialogue contradict then it would be problematic to base an argument on them. The MOJORITY of SG technology contradicts visuals with dialogue. The fact that you are somehow stating now that a Goa'uld Ha'tak cannon blast can fire up to 1.6Gt when it was stated before that it was 200Mt is interesting. Even the 200Mt figure in unsubstantiated and has been proven incorrect by taking into account the events of the Episode beach head where the maximum yield of the Ha'tak vessels would have been used but the math does not equate to 200Mt per shot and is nowhere near 1Gt per shot (Based on my math where the ships dont for some reason stop firing when they are off screen).

First up, we know in Beach Head that there is a period of time where the Hataks stop firing. They do this whilst SG1 is prepping their nuke. They don't resume firing until after the detonation.

The simple reason for the increased firepower is upgrades. A number of things change with Hataks over the course of SG1- their very design changes somewhat at one stage, and Anubis made several changes. Plus, we know for a fact that hyperdrive dramatically changes (Teal'c thought it would take Apophis' ships decades to reach earth, based on the speeds Hataks had demonstrated during his time as First Prime, yet in the SG1 Season 1 finale, it is demonstrated that Hataks have been improved to be much much faster).

Additionally, nearly every instance of on-screen low firepower for Hataks can be rationalised, based on what we know of Goa'uld modus operandi. The same cannot be said for the examples from the Trekverse.

If someone were to make a space battle as accurately on screen as you would want it, it would be boring to watch because we would not be able to watch ships at all (because of moving at fractions of the speed of light), we would only see a bright screen the entire time(from numerous megaton+ explosions), and there would be no sounds (since the battle takes place in a vacuum). The arguments you have made are based on you wanting stargate to win and have no evidence to support the weapon yields for SG other than visuals and dialogue that often does not match.

I don't say I would want to watch battles with ultra-realistic effects, I say that we have to take what is shown on screen as canon, just as much as we take dialogue, and that it is far easier to measure visual effects and get figures from them, than it is to get figures from often contradictory dialogue (as I mentioned to Pheonix, dialogue can contradict itself, let alone visuals).

We have visual evidence to support gigaton level firepower for Hataks, we have visual evidence to support massive nuclear weapon explosions measuring at several hundred gigatons for the Tauri, and I haven't yet referred to the shield calculations for Hataks from the SG1 ep 'Enemies', which strongly indicate multi-gigaton shielding. As I have said before, nearly every instance of low firepower from Hataks can be explained.

On the Trek side, we have clear military situations where it was in the best interests of the enemy (Breen, Borg) to deliver devastating firepower to their targets and they failed to do so.

To prove this, I will have you address the Goa'uld Ha'tak energy blast versus the Biliskner class power output. I used the 200Mt figure and concluded that the Goa'uld blast is manytimes greater than the Biliskner class generator output. Since you are claiming they can output over a Gigaton per shot now that number has drastically risen. How would it makes sense that a Ha'tak has more power in a single shot than an Asgard ship can output in total. When it was common knowledge that a Biliskner can easily defeat a ha'tak before the Ascended knowledge upgrade by Anubis how does this make sense? You claimed that you forgot to reply to this before so I look forward to hearing your explanation.

Here are some numbers I have gathered.


4,000,000,000,000J = 4 x 10^12 = Biliskner class maximum output (Thor- SGG1 "Nemesis")

1,000,000,000,000,000J = 1 x 10^15 = 1MT (Physics)

64,000,000,000,000,000J = 6.4 x 10^16 = Standard Photon Toprpedo (Physics on direct 1:1 1.5kg M/AM annihilation)

200,000,000,000,000,000J = 2 x 10^17 = Supposed Ha'tak 200Mt Blast Yeild (supposed)

1,300,000,000,000,000,000J = 1.3 x 10^18 = Suppsed Ha'tak 1.3Gt Blast Yeild (Supposed)

12,750,000,000,000,000,000J = 1.275 x 10^19 = Galaxy Glass warp core output (TNG: "True Q")[/QUOTE]

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/starga...argate-322.htm

The above is the transcript of 'Nemesis'. It makes no mention of the figures you claim for a Beliskner.

Since your numbers cannot be verified, I can see no point in going over them. However, I will point out, once more, that ships in the SGverse have been changed and updated over time. The Beliskner was an old design, and the newer O'Neill class was capable of standing up to the newer Hataks, including those improved by Anubis. Finally, we have seen the Asgard use techniques other than raw firepower to achieve their goals (they tend to 'beam' away Goa'uld technology, rather than simply blow it up).

[darth_timon]

My War Scenario

Right, here is how I think a war would play out between the System Lords and the Federation. For the moment, lets leave other factions out of it.

First of all, we know from the Dominion War that the Federation has several thousand vessels at its disposal, although exact numbers are not known. Somewhere around the 5,000 number seems reasonable, given how roughly 3,000 Dominion reinfocements in SOE would have been enough, combined with existing Dominion fleets, to defeat both the Federation and the Klingons completely.

In the SG1 episode 'Disclosure', reference is made to intel that suggests the Goa'uld have hundreds, perhaps thousands of ships. They also made reference to there being 12 System Lords.

If we assumed 100 ships per System Lord (only an assumption, I will grant you), that's 1,200 ships overall, plus whatever Alkesh they can bring in as well.

If we leave aside firepower for a moment, and assume that on a 1-on-1 basis, both sides are evenly matched, the System Lords win, on the basis that their far superior speed gives them a tactical and stragetic flexibility that Federation cannot overcome. First Contact states that the Federation has 150 member planets, plus colonies, spread over 8,000LY. At warp 9, it would take a Federation ship five years to cross Federation space. A Goa'uld Hatak could cover that same distance in a matter of months, perhaps even weeks.

This means the Goa'uld can pick and choose where and when to strike. The Federation has a stark choice- spread it's forces thinly to try and defend everything, or concentrate their forces at key targets and leave other positions defenceless. Either way, the Goa'uld can strike, and withdraw to a distance well outside the operational range of the Federation, and thus effectively pin the Federation fleet to key locations.

[Math Boy]

I was just throwing my two cents in. Dont really care about a debate. Some stuff I was right on and some stuff not.

[Tetsujin]

First up, we know in Beach Head that there is a period of time where the Hataks stop firing. They do this whilst SG1 is prepping their nuke. They don't resume firing until after the detonation.

Yes, I know that. I took that into account. The first post when I brought it up stated that when the Ha'taks stopped firing I stopped the timer. It was a TOTAL of almost 3 minutes of 5-6 shots per second from each Ha'tak.

The simple reason for the increased firepower is upgrades. A number of things change with Hataks over the course of SG1- their very design changes somewhat at one stage, and Anubis made several changes. Plus, we know for a fact that hyperdrive dramatically changes (Teal'c thought it would take Apophis' ships decades to reach earth, based on the speeds Hataks had demonstrated during his time as First Prime, yet in the SG1 Season 1 finale, it is demonstrated that Hataks have been improved to be much much faster).

There have been upgrades most of which Anubis made using knowledge he wouldnt have had if he had not ascended which completely rules every upgrade done by him as baseline Goa'uld technology. Teal'c stated this but I highly doubt that it would take decades for them to reach a point not even completely on the other side of the galaxy with even speed levels from the beginning of the series. It was a plot statement to make it seem as though they were safe before they decided what they were going to do with the Goa'uld.

Additionally, nearly every instance of on-screen low firepower for Hataks can be rationalised, based on what we know of Goa'uld modus operandi. The same cannot be said for the examples from the Trekverse.

How can Ha'tak firepower be rationalized when ST firepower cannot. Ha'tak firepower is based on opinion of if they are making it appear weaker while ST actually has a quote from a produced verifying that that is what they are doing. Not only that, but real world physics proves that they are making them seem less powerful than they really are.

I don't say I would want to watch battles with ultra-realistic effects, I say that we have to take what is shown on screen as canon, just as much as we take dialogue, and that it is far easier to measure visual effects and get figures from them, than it is to get figures from often contradictory dialogue (as I mentioned to Pheonix, dialogue can contradict itself, let alone visuals)

.

You cant take what is shown as cannon if you admit that realistic effects would be bad for marketing, ratings, and would cause a show to be canceled. Both can contradict themselves but that is why you take into account all factors and try t make an average on things that have no proof or seems to contradict something.

We have visual evidence to support gigaton level firepower for Hataks, we have visual evidence to support massive nuclear weapon explosions measuring at several hundred gigatons for the Tauri, and I haven't yet referred to the shield calculations for Hataks from the SG1 ep 'Enemies', which strongly indicate multi-gigaton shielding. As I have said before, nearly every instance of low firepower from Hataks can be explained.

There is no evidence to support gigaton power levels for hataks. You have visual evidence to support the explosions being powerful and at least Many megatons but Gigatons in just an assumption based on dialogue. And we all know SG like to throw out random big numbers. Again if the shielding and weapons are Gigaton level how could an upgraded Ha'tak be weaker than a Biliskner when the output of even a 200Mt shot is more than the entire power system of the Biliskner? Another instance of liking to throw out big numbers and just having to ride with it at the time.

On the Trek side, we have clear military situations where it was in the best interests of the enemy (Breen, Borg) to deliver devastating firepower to their targets and they failed to do so.

In what instance not connected to plot where the Borg or Breen did not outright destroy a target? When they would destroy a ship with all the main cast on it?? Or when they would have destroyed the central government of the Federation?? They are plot related. Anything else and physics shows that if it were not for the continuity of the story SF would be a giant crater and the Borg would control the vast majority of the Milky Way galaxy. Seeing ONLY 1 cube at a time to attack earth when the borg control thousands is an obvious plot device. The borg were finally shown to attack en masse in a recent ST(canon) novel and it was bad business for everyone.

To prove this, I will have you address the Goa'uld Ha'tak energy blast versus the Biliskner class power output. I used the 200Mt figure and concluded that the Goa'uld blast is manytimes greater than the Biliskner class generator output. Since you are claiming they can output over a Gigaton per shot now that number has drastically risen. How would it makes sense that a Ha'tak has more power in a single shot than an Asgard ship can output in total. When it was common knowledge that a Biliskner can easily defeat a ha'tak before the Ascended knowledge upgrade by Anubis how does this make sense? You claimed that you forgot to reply to this before so I look forward to hearing your explanation.

Here are some numbers I have gathered.


4,000,000,000,000J = 4 x 10^12 = Biliskner class maximum output (Thor- SGG1 "Nemesis")

1,000,000,000,000,000J = 1 x 10^15 = 1MT (Physics)

64,000,000,000,000,000J = 6.4 x 10^16 = Standard Photon Toprpedo (Physics on direct 1:1 1.5kg M/AM annihilation)

200,000,000,000,000,000J = 2 x 10^17 = Supposed Ha'tak 200Mt Blast Yeild (supposed)

1,300,000,000,000,000,000J = 1.3 x 10^18 = Suppsed Ha'tak 1.3Gt Blast Yeild (Supposed)

12,750,000,000,000,000,000J = 1.275 x 10^19 = Galaxy Glass warp core output (TNG: "True Q")

Yep thats what I said. lol

http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/starga...argate-322.htm

The above is the transcript of 'Nemesis'. It makes no mention of the figures you claim for a Beliskner.

Since your numbers cannot be verified, I can see no point in going over them. However, I will point out, once more, that ships in the SGverse have been changed and updated over time. The Beliskner was an old design, and the newer O'Neill class was capable of standing up to the newer Hataks, including those improved by Anubis. Finally, we have seen the Asgard use techniques other than raw firepower to achieve their goals (they tend to 'beam' away Goa'uld technology, rather than simply blow it up).

Since you seem to have pulled up a transcript of only present actors, go ACTUALLY watch that episode and around 16 minutes in you will hear a recording of THOR give an rundown(cut short) of the Biliskner class. In this recording you can clearly hear THOR say a MAXIMUM of 1 billion kj per neutrino ion generator. There is your canon evidence, stated by the one character you would have to believe since its his ship and he is the supreme commander of the Asgard fleet he would know.

The Asgard, before the introduction of the plasma beam weapon, used pulse fire DEWs like everyone else. So regardless of how they did it we know Asgard shields(and shields in general) are based primarily on how much energy you can put into them. In the respect of needing to be recharged an energy bleed through when the shields are weak Asgard shields are similar to Federation shielding. By these numbers a Biliskner shouldnt even be able to take a single shot from an standard pre upgrade Ha'tak, but supposedly another Ha'tak can take these shots and it has been shown that a Biliskner can best a standard Ha'tak even when the fight is one versus many.

"A Constitution-class starship's shields could take the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes at once. (TOS: "The Changeling") "

90=50+ Megaton explosives at once. 4.5 Gigatons on the NCC-1701 what do you think 100+ years later is capable of if this ship can take 4.5 Gigatons at once and probably more over time. Ships of TOS era are considered extremely weak by the time of current ST. Even a heavily upgraded and retrofitted excelsior class ship(which was designed 40 years after the constitution class) that is newer than the constitution class is only roughly equal to a defiant class(which would lose to a mainline ship like the galaxy class and up and may or may not be more powerful than an intrepid class)

[Tetsujin]

I was just throwing my two cents in. Dont really care about a debate. Some stuff I was right on and some stuff not.

I will give you a lot of credit simply for the fact that you are honest about your intentions and what you said possibly being incorrect. Some people are not grown up enough to even do that.

[Tetsujin]

My War Scenario

Right, here is how I think a war would play out between the System Lords and the Federation. For the moment, lets leave other factions out of it.

First of all, we know from the Dominion War that the Federation has several thousand vessels at its disposal, although exact numbers are not known. Somewhere around the 5,000 number seems reasonable, given how roughly 3,000 Dominion reinfocements in SOE would have been enough, combined with existing Dominion fleets, to defeat both the Federation and the Klingons completely.

In the SG1 episode 'Disclosure', reference is made to intel that suggests the Goa'uld have hundreds, perhaps thousands of ships. They also made reference to there being 12 System Lords.

If we assumed 100 ships per System Lord (only an assumption, I will grant you), that's 1,200 ships overall, plus whatever Alkesh they can bring in as well.

If we leave aside firepower for a moment, and assume that on a 1-on-1 basis, both sides are evenly matched, the System Lords win, on the basis that their far superior speed gives them a tactical and stragetic flexibility that Federation cannot overcome. First Contact states that the Federation has 150 member planets, plus colonies, spread over 8,000LY. At warp 9, it would take a Federation ship five years to cross Federation space. A Goa'uld Hatak could cover that same distance in a matter of months, perhaps even weeks.



This means the Goa'uld can pick and choose where and when to strike. The Federation has a stark choice- spread it's forces thinly to try and defend everything, or concentrate their forces at key targets and leave other positions defenceless. Either way, the Goa'uld can strike, and withdraw to a distance well outside the operational range of the Federation, and thus effectively pin the Federation fleet to key locations.

That is true. The speed of a Ha'tak and baseline SG in general is faster than baseline Alpha quadrant races. The reason for this is mainly that the show exists in a smaller scale and would conform to such speeds(like other sci fi shows) if the show took place in the entire galaxy rather than 1/4th of it, but I still admit that in this respect the Ha'tak is superior. This speed advantage is only relevant if the federation has to protect targets in its own universe and is still limited by treaties of its universe. If the roles were reversed then the Goa'uld would have to protect stationary targets and the federation ships would have phase cloaking devices and many other goodies on their ships so the Goa'uld could move quickly but could never find the federation fleet to attack them and even if they did would get overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

This is still a war and not ship to ship where the ability to run away quickly would not matter so much. An all out war would be different and in an all out war the Federation would most likely protect vital planets with the bulk of their forces because it would be the only logical course of action. Probably would also heavily use orbital weapons platforms on the planets that need to be defended but are too far off to constantly more to and from. Once pinned to key locations then what? In the ST universe there is no Naquadah so they Goa'uld fleet would essentially burn itself out while the federation waited. If they tried to attack they would be overwhelmed with numbers and if they tried to also wait they would run out of the one thing that ALL their technology is based on and would not be able to compensate for not having it since most races on SG are naquadah dependent especially the Goa'uld. In the SG universe there would be naquadah (which the federation would get a hold of and possibly utilize). Also how far into the future are we talking because transpacific torpedoes and armor technology arent too far off into the future in the ST universe.

This war would essentially play out like UNSC vs The covenant except with the only technological gap being speed. Which would lead to, as I stated, the development and production of large amount of orbital weapon platforms.