Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[Tetsujin]

I will say this simply. Weapons from a ship 200 years ago vaporized a mountain. Regardless of if the ship was damaged because of it or not at the time, later in the episode the feat was repeated with minimal ill effects. If it can be compensated for in hours to negate the majority of the ill effects than it would become the norm in years easily. Even if you say 10 years later that became normal power output think of the power output 200 years later. Even if you limit the output increase to 5-10% per year you would still get around a 1000% increase near minimum 200 years later. 1000% output increase with a 5% per year increase is laughable compared to what the reality of it could be.

Before anyone makes a comment on being able to power that kind of power increase look at the power output of starfleet vessels. Pre Dominion war Galaxy class 12.75 billion gigawatts of power. (TNG: "True Q") That is not even the best ST has to offer at present with at least 2 ships outclassing it even with a retrofit that included increasing the galaxy classes power output. A Gigawatt is equivalent to 1 billion watts. So a billion watts times 12.75 billion would get you the output in watts. An Biliskner class has an output of 4 Trillion watts a second. Also not their best vessel at present. Still you do not even need to do the math to clearly see who has the better power output.

The episode where the Breen attacked Earth is a plot device. Had it been real the entire city would have been completely leveled. Then again how exactly would an enemy ship get into the heart of federation territory to attack without cloaking? Try walking up to the white house or the pentagon waving a gun and see how close you get.

Anything from Stargate that has showcased massive destructive power mostly has been ballistic weapons. (which can be easily shot down by any reasonable phaser array.) Or Using beaming technology which I can say would most likely be the first thing to go for both sides because of some form of jamming or another.

Star Trek weapons systems are limited in and out of universe. By the writers downplaying and by treaties that limit weapon payload and types of weapon research. SG has no such limitations and their weapons are not more impressive in the least. Do you honesly think they could not make a bigger antimatter warhead than 1.5kg on matter and antimatter? http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassian_ATR-4107. Carries 1000KG of matter and antimatter and has extreme(lightyears) range and independent defensive capabilities. If 1.5kg of matter and antimatter is 64 megatons(standard photon torpedo) in real world physics than this weapon would have a 42 GT yield. That is pure science with no magical Naquadah/Naquadria inconsistencies to deal with. Since this has shields and weapons and can travel faster than light would be much harder to shoot down than any ballistic based WMD stargate has.

If you bring the single most tactically advanced ship from each race. One that has not had its abilities augmented my using specially stolen technology or enhanced using ancient knowledge(Purely standard model with standard armaments)

I dont see any ST ship beating a Star Trek ship except maybe a Lantean or Asgard ship, and even they would have a fight on their hands. No the Ori dont count because how can you count a ship that has been made using ascended knowledge? That is like having the Q make you a ship.

If it was a race then SG wins hands down in most cases, but this is ship to ship combat and your ability to run away quickly does not help you when you are trying to defeat an opponent. Right then and there.

[webxro]

Did you see the star exploding and trowing Apophis's ship in another galaxy , the shields in ST barely sustain some damage , and as for the weapons , how about Anubis super weapon , and you compare current SG weapons with TNG and beyond tech , well that's not really correct , and i know that earth had a quick start in SG but in TNG it had many colonies and you are talking about races . Well back to the point destiny takes fuel from a star end of the line .

[darth_timon]

I'll attempt to reply in greater detail later, but for now I must point that regardless of what is stated by characters, if we have visual evidence of a weapon's firepower, that takes precedence over dialogue. We can use visuals to measure things like explosions, and get figures from them.

It's also worth noting that the visuals are canon.

[webxro]

How about a mark ix nuke , is that visual for you .

[darth_timon]

I will say this simply. Weapons from a ship 200 years ago vaporized a mountain. Regardless of if the ship was damaged because of it or not at the time, later in the episode the feat was repeated with minimal ill effects. If it can be compensated for in hours to negate the majority of the ill effects than it would become the norm in years easily. Even if you say 10 years later that became normal power output think of the power output 200 years later. Even if you limit the output increase to 5-10% per year you would still get around a 1000% increase near minimum 200 years later. 1000% output increase with a 5% per year increase is laughable compared to what the reality of it could be.

We have visual examples of much lower firepower for Star Trek forces in subsequent years. TDIC, Skin of Evil, The Changing Face of Evil- all of these give us clear visuals that do not show anywhere near the firepower claimed. Even if 200MT were the maximum a Goa'uld ship could put out, it would still be several orders of magnitude higher than what we've see the standard powers in Trek accomplish.

Before anyone makes a comment on being able to power that kind of power increase look at the power output of starfleet vessels. Pre Dominion war Galaxy class 12.75 billion gigawatts of power. (TNG: "True Q") That is not even the best ST has to offer at present with at least 2 ships outclassing it even with a retrofit that included increasing the galaxy classes power output. A Gigawatt is equivalent to 1 billion watts. So a billion watts times 12.75 billion would get you the output in watts. An Biliskner class has an output of 4 Trillion watts a second. Also not their best vessel at present. Still you do not even need to do the math to clearly see who has the better power output. [/quote]

Yet what is seen on screen blatently contradicts this.

The episode where the Breen attacked Earth is a plot device. Had it been real the entire city would have been completely leveled. Then again how exactly would an enemy ship get into the heart of federation territory to attack without cloaking? Try walking up to the white house or the pentagon waving a gun and see how close you get.

Sorry, but if we're going to properly analyse the on-screen evidence, we cannot dismiss it as a plot device or artistic licence anytime we see something that weakens our argument. Either attempt to rationalise it in the context of the show, or accept what the visual evidence shows- that Breen ships (which enjoy rough technological parity with their Federation counterparts) cannot do much greater damage than a WWII bombing run would have accomplished.

Anything from Stargate that has showcased massive destructive power mostly has been ballistic weapons. (which can be easily shot down by any reasonable phaser array.) Or Using beaming technology which I can say would most likely be the first thing to go for both sides because of some form of jamming or another.

Photon torpedoes are slow-moving targets that often travel in a straight line yet the Federation et al make no attempt to shoot them down- most likely because they can't.

Star Trek weapons systems are limited in and out of universe. By the writers downplaying and by treaties that limit weapon payload and types of weapon research. SG has no such limitations and their weapons are not more impressive in the least. Do you honesly think they could not make a bigger antimatter warhead than 1.5kg on matter and antimatter? http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cardassian_ATR-4107. Carries 1000KG of matter and antimatter and has extreme(lightyears) range and independent defensive capabilities. If 1.5kg of matter and antimatter is 64 megatons(standard photon torpedo) in real world physics than this weapon would have a 42 GT yield. That is pure science with no magical Naquadah/Naquadria inconsistencies to deal with. Since this has shields and weapons and can travel faster than light would be much harder to shoot down than any ballistic based WMD stargate has.

A 42GT yield is nothing compared to the 812GT yield of a Mark 9 Gatebuster nuke from SG1 and SGA. Plus, the Cardassians' little dreadnought can be intercepted, as we see in the ep in question. Finally, they never deployed these weapons during the Dominion War (at least, not in any of the episodes depicting the war) and nor did anyone else try to reproduce them, so they must have limitations if they were disregarded so promptly.

If you bring the single most tactically advanced ship from each race. One that has not had its abilities augmented my using specially stolen technology or enhanced using ancient knowledge(Purely standard model with standard armaments)

The Tauri's BC304 design would kick the butt of any Federation ship you would choose to pit it against.

[Tetsujin]

We have visual examples of much lower firepower for Star Trek forces in subsequent years. TDIC, Skin of Evil, The Changing Face of Evil- all of these give us clear visuals that do not show anywhere near the firepower claimed. Even if 200MT were the maximum a Goa'uld ship could put out, it would still be several orders of magnitude higher than what we've see the standard powers in Trek accomplish.


Before anyone makes a comment on being able to power that kind of power increase look at the power output of starfleet vessels. Pre Dominion war Galaxy class 12.75 billion gigawatts of power. (TNG: "True Q") That is not even the best ST has to offer at present with at least 2 ships outclassing it even with a retrofit that included increasing the galaxy classes power output. A Gigawatt is equivalent to 1 billion watts. So a billion watts times 12.75 billion would get you the output in watts. An Biliskner class has an output of 4 Trillion watts a second. Also not their best vessel at present. Still you do not even need to do the math to clearly see who has the better power output.


Yet what is seen on screen blatently contradicts this.

Please dont make me re-post the quote by Ronald D. Moore. They are actively downplaying weapons fire for the sake of the plot. Where in these episodes were phaser or other weapons being shown to be ineffective in a way that is not directly linked to the plot.

Read my post that uses stargates on numbers that proves that the 200Mt figure doesnt fit. Also a 200Mt blast is 4 Quadrillion Joules of energy per megaton. Thats 800 Quadrillion Joules (800,000,000,000,000,000J) an Asgard Biliskner class generates 4 trillion joules(4,000,000,000,000J) of energy per second by Thors own statement. How would a single blast from a Goa'uld ship(which can fire 5-6 per second) be 200,000 times greater than the entire energy output of a ship that can take on multiple Ha'taks at once and easily win? Makes so little sense it hurts my brain. That would mean logically that the Goa'uld have more powerful weapons and power generation technology than the Asgard, which we know is not true. So you have two reasonable choices. Accept their power is nowhere near the stated 200Mt figure or accept that the Goa'uld are more advanced than the Asgard in power generation. Which seems more logical to you?

Sorry, but if we're going to properly analyse the on-screen evidence, we cannot dismiss it as a plot device or artistic licence anytime we see something that weakens our argument. Either attempt to rationalise it in the context of the show, or accept what the visual evidence shows- that Breen ships (which enjoy rough technological parity with their Federation counterparts) cannot do much greater damage than a WWII bombing run would have accomplished.

It weakens the argument in no way because I have already shown a quote stating that they downplay star trek weapons in context because they are too powerful. Even using pure real world physics a single st ship could easily vaporize a city near instantly so obviously some artistic license was taken when all you see is some fires and collapsed bridges from vessels attacking a ground target. Its an obviously rational conclusion that you should have reached.

Photon torpedoes are slow-moving targets that often travel in a straight line yet the Federation et al make no attempt to shoot them down- most likely because they can't.

Slow moving compared to what? ST impulse technology has been able to maintain 50% the speed of light since TOS. If a torpedo can overtake something that can accelerate to those kinds of speeds there is no way you can call them slow moving. Also using logic you should be able to deduce that a computer targeted weapon that fires a stream of high energy particles at the speed of light should be able to accurately hit a target moving at sub light speeds. Given the phaser coverage and firing rate of a federation vessel its only logical to assume that its possible but it has just not been seen on screen (although it has been in games). Like all CIWS's it would not be 100% effective but the reality of such a point defense would mean you would have to massively overwhelm its firing capability to get though just to hit shields.

A 42GT yield is nothing compared to the 812GT yield of a Mark 9 Gatebuster nuke from SG1 and SGA. Plus, the Cardassians' little dreadnought can be intercepted, as we see in the ep in question. Finally, they never deployed these weapons during the Dominion War (at least, not in any of the episodes depicting the war) and nor did anyone else try to reproduce them, so they must have limitations if they were disregarded so promptly.

No your right, it is pretty small thanks to the magic of Naquadriah. I love stargate but the "slap some naquadah on something to give it an ungodly boost" got old really fast. And there is no real life physics involved so they can go as high as they need to in the plot. So far gatebusters have had to be either beamed to a target or carried in a missile as a warhead. If a smart ship with ECM, shields, and weapons can be intercepted that leaves 0 hope for a plain old missile that need to be beamed to a target of fired from a ship.

Since its a given that beaming is out for both ST and SG and a missile is easy prey for a phaser I would say the yield of the weapon is moot if it cant get close to its target. If a phaser can hit a target from 300,000 kilmeters away its at least that much time to get shot down(If a missile could even catch a ST ship.) Also worst case scenario the missile is intercepted right after being launched and detonates in the "face" of the vessel that fired it. For it to hit it would have to be fired from close enough to leave no time for interception which would leave the firing ship in a bad spot. Also, the gate buster is not a standard weapon and neither is the dreadnought but at least the dreadnought is completely independent.

Just the use of the dreadnought was surprising given the ST standard of staying away from WMDs(their universes standards of them anyway). I was just using this to illustrate the potential capabilities of ST if all the kid gloves were taken off.

The Tauri's BC304 design would kick the butt of any Federation ship you would choose to pit it against.

I disagree. The Sovereign class or Prometheus class would annihilate the 304 class. I am fairly certain the Galaxy, Intrepid, and Defiant class could beat it as well. Missiles= useless, Rail Guns = less than useless, Plasma Beam weapons = possibly useful. Also most of if not all of the Tau'ri's useful weapons technology come from the Asgard so in reality no Tau'ri made anything is in the running since they have yet to even develop viable DEWs of their own. Same goes for the scavengers of Lantean technology known as the Goa'uld. The only ones who actually invented the technology on their ships are the Asgard and Lantean. The BC-303 was as far as the Tau'ri progressed to on their own without being handed technology by the Asgard, and even that used stolen Goa'uld technology for vital components such as an Alkesh hyperdrive. So the real SG contenders are the Aurora class and O'niell class at best.

[darth_timon]

Please dont make me re-post the quote by Ronald D. Moore. They are actively downplaying weapons fire for the sake of the plot. Where in these episodes were phaser or other weapons being shown to be ineffective in a way that is not directly linked to the plot.

It's not even relevant. If you want to be objective about analysing on-screen events, you must treat said events as in-universe. In context of the shows, explain why we don't see any significant damage to San Francisco after a Breen attack, explain why a torpedo in 'Skin of Evil' leaves no visible damage to the planet's surface, and explain why TDIC shows none of the effects we should expect to see from destroying 30% of a planet's crust.

Read my post that uses stargates on numbers that proves that the 200Mt figure doesnt fit. Also a 200Mt blast is 4 Quadrillion Joules of energy per megaton. Thats 800 Quadrillion Joules (800,000,000,000,000,000J) an Asgard Biliskner class generates 4 trillion joules(4,000,000,000,000J) of energy per second by Thors own statement. How would a single blast from a Goa'uld ship(which can fire 5-6 per second) be 200,000 times greater than the entire energy output of a ship that can take on multiple Ha'taks at once and easily win? Makes so little sense it hurts my brain. That would mean logically that the Goa'uld have more powerful weapons and power generation technology than the Asgard, which we know is not true. So you have two reasonable choices. Accept their power is nowhere near the stated 200Mt figure or accept that the Goa'uld are more advanced than the Asgard in power generation. Which seems more logical to you?

Two things. Firstly, this: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=83332

Note that 180 shots were fired between three Ha'taks during the course of the events in 'Beach Head'. That's 60 shots each. Assuming they contributed 243.6GT between them (the 30% figure if 812GT is 70%- by earlier maths were wrong), that's 1.35GT per shot. However, this should be taken as a lower limit, not a maximum possbile figure, since the 812GT figure is conservative.

If we use 1TT for the 70% figure, we arrive eventually at 1.66GT per shot for a Hatak.

It weakens the argument in no way because I have already shown a quote stating that they downplay star trek weapons in context because they are too powerful. Even using pure real world physics a single st ship could easily vaporize a city near instantly so obviously some artistic license was taken when all you see is some fires and collapsed bridges from vessels attacking a ground target. Its an obviously rational conclusion that you should have reached.

It's not a rational conclusion if we seek to explain things in-universe (IE, from the characters point of view). If I were a Federation captain and my weaponry was only capable of dishing out WWII levels of damage to a city, I would be mortified with what I had at my disposal, especially knowing that in the 21st Century, we had nukes more powerful than starship weapons.

Slow moving compared to what? ST impulse technology has been able to maintain 50% the speed of light since TOS. If a torpedo can overtake something that can accelerate to those kinds of speeds there is no way you can call them slow moving. Also using logic you should be able to deduce that a computer targeted weapon that fires a stream of high energy particles at the speed of light should be able to accurately hit a target moving at sub light speeds. Given the phaser coverage and firing rate of a federation vessel its only logical to assume that its possible but it has just not been seen on screen (although it has been in games). Like all CIWS's it would not be 100% effective but the reality of such a point defense would mean you would have to massively overwhelm its firing capability to get though just to hit shields.

Torpedoes are slow-moving in comparison not only to Star Trek ships but even Star Trek ships which are hardly moving (watch VOY's 'Message in a Bottle' for a good example of this). Yet no effort is made to shoot them down, which suggests severe limitations of a phaser array's ability to do so.

You keep ascribing abilities to Federation ships that simply have not been observed. Where did you get this 50% of light speed number from?

No your right, it is pretty small thanks to the magic of Naquadriah. I love stargate but the "slap some naquadah on something to give it an ungodly boost" got old really fast. And there is no real life physics involved so they can go as high as they need to in the plot. So far gatebusters have had to be either beamed to a target or carried in a missile as a warhead. If a smart ship with ECM, shields, and weapons can be intercepted that leaves 0 hope for a plain old missile that need to be beamed to a target of fired from a ship.

The Cardassian Dreadnought was hardly in the same league as a ship- it may have fared well compared to Voyager, but Voyager is not a warship and I don't recall any references to ECM. In fact, a 304 is far more likely to employ ECM, and ECM is known to be at the disposal of modern-day military equipment, including missiles. Given that natural phenomena can play havoc with Federation sensors (TNG's Season One 'Symbosis', TNG Season Two 'Peak Performance' TNG Season Three 'Ensigns of Command', to name but a few examples), I doubt very much they could hit a missile.

Since its a given that beaming is out for both ST and SG and a missile is easy prey for a phaser I would say the yield of the weapon is moot if it cant get close to its target. If a phaser can hit a target from 300,000 kilmeters away its at least that much time to get shot down(If a missile could even catch a ST ship.) Also worst case scenario the missile is intercepted right after being launched and detonates in the "face" of the vessel that fired it. For it to hit it would have to be fired from close enough to leave no time for interception which would leave the firing ship in a bad spot. Also, the gate buster is not a standard weapon and neither is the dreadnought but at least the dreadnought is completely independent.

Given that typical Star Trek battles all take place at ranges of a few kilometres, missiles fired at close range stand a very good chance of hitting their target. And as you say, the dreadnought is not a standard weapon- they must have limitations otherwise the Cardassians would have used them in droves during the Dominion War.

Just the use of the dreadnought was surprising given the ST standard of staying away from WMDs(their universes standards of them anyway). I was just using this to illustrate the potential capabilities of ST if all the kid gloves were taken off.

ST has a lot of potential capabilities, but virtually none of these capabilities are used, even in times of war. This suggests a great many limitations as to their implementation.

I disagree. The Sovereign class or Prometheus class would annihilate the 304 class. I am fairly certain the Galaxy, Intrepid, and Defiant class could beat it as well. Missiles= useless, Rail Guns = less than useless, Plasma Beam weapons = possibly useful. Also most of if not all of the Tau'ri's useful weapons technology come from the Asgard so in reality no Tau'ri made anything is in the running since they have yet to even develop viable DEWs of their own. Same goes for the scavengers of Lantean technology known as the Goa'uld. The only ones who actually invented the technology on their ships are the Asgard and Lantean. The BC-303 was as far as the Tau'ri progressed to on their own without being handed technology by the Asgard, and even that used stolen Goa'uld technology for vital components such as an Alkesh hyperdrive. So the real SG contenders are the Aurora class and O'niell class at best.

Missiles would be lethal. The earliest missiles developed by the SGC were 1GT a piece, and they have since been refined. The exact yields are not known, but even if the missiles only went up 1GT per class, that would give 304s 8GT missiles, which, fired at the sort of ranges ST ships fight, would be easily able to find their targets- and one such missile would destroy a Federation ship.

Beam weapons just make this a joke. Whereas the Mark 8 missiles (and the combined firepower of several Hataks) did squat to Ori shields, the beam weapons were able to punch through them, suggesting they significantly more powerful. Again, one-shot kills for Tauri ships.

[webxro]

Let me defend a little star trek , ok can i start , great .

Red mater , beat a topedo using that , also in ST XI we've seen the Enterprise taking out the torpedoes , now i would love to see something stronger then red matter in SG

[Tetsujin]

It's not even relevant. If you want to be objective about analysing on-screen events, you must treat said events as in-universe. In context of the shows, explain why we don't see any significant damage to San Francisco after a Breen attack, explain why a torpedo in 'Skin of Evil' leaves no visible damage to the planet's surface, and explain why TDIC shows none of the effects we should expect to see from destroying 30% of a planet's crust.

I HAVE explained it multiple time. I have given real world calculations of power and in show demonstrations and a quote that states that the weapons in show are drastically toned down for the sake of the story. You are being entirely unseasonable. You cannot take into account the seen effects at face value you when you have statement saying that the weapons are toned down on screen. If you use physics then you would come to the conclusion that the weapons are more powerful and if you use the quote the weapons fire is in reality more powerful. You seem to be ignoring not only the quote but the calculations of what a 1.5kg M/AM explosion is capable of for the sake of your argument.

Two things. Firstly, this: http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=83332

Note that 180 shots were fired between three Ha'taks during the course of the events in 'Beach Head'. That's 60 shots each. Assuming they contributed 243.6GT between them (the 30% figure if 812GT is 70%- by earlier maths were wrong), that's 1.35GT per shot. However, this should be taken as a lower limit, not a maximum possbile figure, since the 812GT figure is conservative.

If we use 1TT for the 70% figure, we arrive eventually at 1.66GT per shot for a Hatak.

It was drastically more that 180 shots. I watched the episode when I made the calculations on beach head. The Ha'taks fired for nearly 3 minutes in total and averaged 5-6 shots a second. Using simple math 5 x 180 is not 180 its 900. 900 shots per Ha'tak so kindly do your math over and let me know what you come up with per blast(which should be what I got just about). And 812GT is not conservative since I see no evidence to support that figure since the 200Mt Ha'tak blast obviously cannot be used as any sort of reliable reference and all anyone seems to say is multi gigaton in the show. Multi mean more than one it is not necessarily mean 800. It could but I doubt it since a 800 Gt explosion would be....well planet busting if a 30Gt can blow up a small moon, and it clearly wasnt.

Also did I see no response to the number discrepancy between the Goa'uld blast and an Asgard ships energy output? If a Biliskner class can easily defeat a Ha'tak how is the output of one blast 200,000 times greater than the entire energy output of a Biliskner class? Explanation please since you want to speak of in universe numbers and visuals are all there is to it. Both number were stated by the characters whose shoes we are supposed to be thinking so what is with this huge discrepancy? This is what happens when a show only cares about sounding impressive with large numbers and says one too many, you can catch them with logic.

It's not a rational conclusion if we seek to explain things in-universe (IE, from the characters point of view). If I were a Federation captain and my weaponry was only capable of dishing out WWII levels of damage to a city, I would be mortified with what I had at my disposal, especially knowing that in the 21st Century, we had nukes more powerful than starship weapons.

If we are looking at it from the characters perspective then that would mean all trek weapons are substantially more powerful because all the shown weakness was for the viewers benefits and was ignored by the characters. As far as ST weapons are concerned the viewers are seeing things differently(toned down) than they really are. Again if the characters in the show KNOW that 1 torpedo could level a city then for whose benefit is the minimal damage of targets? The output of something that can be deduced using real world physics is indisputable regardless of how you want to look at it. PERIOD. Anything different if for storyline purposes and has no bearing on the actual known effectiveness of a weapon.

Torpedoes are slow-moving in comparison not only to Star Trek ships but even Star Trek ships which are hardly moving (watch VOY's 'Message in a Bottle' for a good example of this). Yet no effort is made to shoot them down, which suggests severe limitations of a phaser array's ability to do so.

Again, how exactly would you SHOW a ship moving 30-50% the speed of light from a stationary perspective? Be rational, ships are know to travel fractions of the speed of light so any movement of the ship by the viewer is relative to what else is on the screen. Barely moving to us could be faster that the human eye can track in reality. I will reiterate that if a current computer controlled CIWS limited by ballistic shells can track and hit a fast moving object, how could a CIWS that fires weapons that move near the speed of light controlled by computers that are hundreds of times faster than what we currently have not? What is seen on screen is not the limit of the technology, only the limit of what the writers want to show you or can afford to show you.

You keep ascribing abilities to Federation ships that simply have not been observed. Where did you get this 50% of light speed number from?

Beyond the fast that number have been given in the show to attest to this and the fact that a human eye cannot register .5c here is where I got it from in this instance: (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive)

The Cardassian Dreadnought was hardly in the same league as a ship- it may have fared well compared to Voyager, but Voyager is not a warship and I don't recall any references to ECM. In fact, a 304 is far more likely to employ ECM, and ECM is known to be at the disposal of modern-day military equipment, including missiles. Given that natural phenomena can play havoc with Federation sensors (TNG's Season One 'Symbosis', TNG Season Two 'Peak Performance' TNG Season Three 'Ensigns of Command', to name but a few examples), I doubt very much they could hit a missile.

So you are saying that modern day military would jam siganls but a military weapon from over 400 years in the future from a timeline that is supposed to be our future would not? Interesting. -_- you seem to want to name all the plot devices imaginable. Think logically, if you have a scanner capable of detecting things fairly accurately from light years away why would it be easy to jam your scanners up close?

Given that typical Star Trek battles all take place at ranges of a few kilometres, missiles fired at close range stand a very good chance of hitting their target. And as you say, the dreadnought is not a standard weapon- they must have limitations otherwise the Cardassians would have used them in droves during the Dominion War.

Thats like saying all SG battles take place a few kilometers from each other. It relative space for crying out loud. If you have a weapon with a range of 300,000 kilometers why would you decide to use it only a few kilometers away. Thats like shooting someone point blank when you are using a sniper rifle. Space battles in shows are shown close because showing two dots 300k km away from each other with glowing lines going back and forth would be boring. The same way that there is sound in a space battle when you know full well there is NO sound in space. Its for our benefit as viewers its not meant to be true to the actual capabilities and physics of the technology.

ST has a lot of potential capabilities, but virtually none of these capabilities are used, even in times of war. This suggests a great many limitations as to their implementation.

No is suggests a great limitation on the story the writers want to convey. Rational uses of technology is put forth then not used because it would change the story. Like the TR-116(Or any ballistic weapon for that matter) would be effective against the Borgs drones but then it would take away a great deal of the suspense of the Borg boarding a ship of everyone had a shotgun waiting to blast the first drone they see. The potential as you say is the reality of it and what is seen on screen is merely what the writers want to convey at the time.

Missiles would be lethal. The earliest missiles developed by the SGC were 1GT a piece, and they have since been refined. The exact yields are not known, but even if the missiles only went up 1GT per class, that would give 304s 8GT missiles, which, fired at the sort of ranges ST ships fight, would be easily able to find their targets- and one such missile would destroy a Federation ship.

I wonder why the exact yields are not know...hmm could it be because all their yields are plot devices to be increased at will. I would like to see a missle catch a federation vessel. Also "A Constitution-class starship's shields could take the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes at once. (TOS: "The Changeling")" 50Mt x 90 =4.5Gt on a ship that is over 100 years old. Even if they weren't shot down, even if they weren't outrun, they could be taken. The fact that Horizon had to have dummy missiles proves they can be shot down by SG ships so that means they can be by ST ships.

Beam weapons just make this a joke. Whereas the Mark 8 missiles (and the combined firepower of several Hataks) did squat to Ori shields, the beam weapons were able to punch through them, suggesting they significantly more powerful. Again, one-shot kills for Tauri ships.

It does not suggest more power especially since it is stated that there are weapons that have more raw output such as the Ori main cannon or the Lantean satellite weapon. The nature of the plasma beam weapons are accuracy and firing rate to overwhelm shielding before they could recover from the previous attack unlike the standard pulse style weapons of the SG universe. So an ori ship that possesses shields are enhanced with ascended knowledge, and are shown to be the most powerful and resilient shields on a ship in the SG universe aside from City ships. These shields couldnt stand up to a weapon like what Federation, and other St races, vessels use as standard? That would mean that anything less than an Ori ship couldnt stand up to phaser fire. I think you just killed your entire argument on a SG win once you admitted that a high energy rapid firing beam can defeat even shields enhanced by higher plane beings in SG.

Go red matter lol

[darth_timon]

I HAVE explained it multiple time. I have given real world calculations of power and in show demonstrations and a quote that states that the weapons in show are drastically toned down for the sake of the story. You are being entirely unseasonable. You cannot take into account the seen effects at face value you when you have statement saying that the weapons are toned down on screen. If you use physics then you would come to the conclusion that the weapons are more powerful and if you use the quote the weapons fire is in reality more powerful. You seem to be ignoring not only the quote but the calculations of what a 1.5kg M/AM explosion is capable of for the sake of your argument.

I am not interested in a producer's quote. You have still to explain why, in the context of in-universe, Star Trek weapons are uniformly weak.

You can use 'writer's intention' to justify almost any position. It's a copout.

It was drastically more that 180 shots. I watched the episode when I made the calculations on beach head. The Ha'taks fired for nearly 3 minutes in total and averaged 5-6 shots a second. Using simple math 5 x 180 is not 180 its 900. 900 shots per Ha'tak so kindly do your math over and let me know what you come up with per blast(which should be what I got just about). And 812GT is not conservative since I see no evidence to support that figure since the 200Mt Ha'tak blast obviously cannot be used as any sort of reliable reference and all anyone seems to say is multi gigaton in the show. Multi mean more than one it is not necessarily mean 800. It could but I doubt it since a 800 Gt explosion would be....well planet busting if a 30Gt can blow up a small moon, and it clearly wasnt.

First of all, 180 shots is not just my observation, but the observation of the people in the link I provided. It's what I saw with my own two eyes and I'm not about to change my position.

Secondly, 800GT is not only an entirely reasonable lower limit, it is also not planet-busting territory. to completely blow up a planet requires more energy than the sun puts out over millions of years! The asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs was said to be in the region of hundreds of thousands of gigatons. It is not there a stretch to place the Mark 9 at 800GT.

Also did I see no response to the number discrepancy between the Goa'uld blast and an Asgard ships energy output? If a Biliskner class can easily defeat a Ha'tak how is the output of one blast 200,000 times greater than the entire energy output of a Biliskner class? Explanation please since you want to speak of in universe numbers and visuals are all there is to it. Both number were stated by the characters whose shoes we are supposed to be thinking so what is with this huge discrepancy? This is what happens when a show only cares about sounding impressive with large numbers and says one too many, you can catch them with logic.

My apologies for not replying to this bit. I must have missed it.

What I would like to see are sources for the power outputs you have. What episodes are these outputs stated?

At any rate though, visuals trump dialogue. We can measure what we see with our eyes much more precisely than we can measure what a character says.

If we are looking at it from the characters perspective then that would mean all trek weapons are substantially more powerful because all the shown weakness was for the viewers benefits and was ignored by the characters. As far as ST weapons are concerned the viewers are seeing things differently(toned down) than they really are. Again if the characters in the show KNOW that 1 torpedo could level a city then for whose benefit is the minimal damage of targets? The output of something that can be deduced using real world physics is indisputable regardless of how you want to look at it. PERIOD. Anything different if for storyline purposes and has no bearing on the actual known effectiveness of a weapon.

I am beginning to suspect we are never going to be able to overcome our different approaches to this. My view is that we should suspend our disbelief and regard the on-screen events like a documentary. We observe certain levels of destruction from weapons and use modern methods of measuring to determine yield. In this context, where the Breen had the chance to inflict a mortal blow to the Federation, it is woeful that they couldn't inflict even one kiloton's worth of damage with their bombardment.

Again, how exactly would you SHOW a ship moving 30-50% the speed of light from a stationary perspective? Be rational, ships are know to travel fractions of the speed of light so any movement of the ship by the viewer is relative to what else is on the screen. Barely moving to us could be faster that the human eye can track in reality. I will reiterate that if a current computer controlled CIWS limited by ballistic shells can track and hit a fast moving object, how could a CIWS that fires weapons that move near the speed of light controlled by computers that are hundreds of times faster than what we currently have not? What is seen on screen is not the limit of the technology, only the limit of what the writers want to show you or can afford to show you.

It's that pesky problem of observed abilities again. If we remove writers intention from the equation for a moment, we see ships in fleet battles that don't move anywhere near as fast as you claim. In the DS9 ep Sacrifice of Angels, the fiighters which attacked the stationary Dominion fleet were clearly not traveling at 50% of lightspeed, and despite their size (they are obviously much bigger than torpedoes) the enemy ships still failed to nail them with every shot. In fact, most shots missed. If they struggle with such large fighters, they will struggle even more with missiles.

I will have to reply to the rest later, as I am off to work now.

Beyond the fast that number have been given in the show to attest to this and the fact that a human eye cannot register .5c here is where I got it from in this instance: (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive)

So you are saying that modern day military would jam siganls but a military weapon from over 400 years in the future from a timeline that is supposed to be our future would not? Interesting. -_- you seem to want to name all the plot devices imaginable. Think logically, if you have a scanner capable of detecting things fairly accurately from light years away why would it be easy to jam your scanners up close?

Thats like saying all SG battles take place a few kilometers from each other. It relative space for crying out loud. If you have a weapon with a range of 300,000 kilometers why would you decide to use it only a few kilometers away. Thats like shooting someone point blank when you are using a sniper rifle. Space battles in shows are shown close because showing two dots 300k km away from each other with glowing lines going back and forth would be boring. The same way that there is sound in a space battle when you know full well there is NO sound in space. Its for our benefit as viewers its not meant to be true to the actual capabilities and physics of the technology.

No is suggests a great limitation on the story the writers want to convey. Rational uses of technology is put forth then not used because it would change the story. Like the TR-116(Or any ballistic weapon for that matter) would be effective against the Borgs drones but then it would take away a great deal of the suspense of the Borg boarding a ship of everyone had a shotgun waiting to blast the first drone they see. The potential as you say is the reality of it and what is seen on screen is merely what the writers want to convey at the time.

I wonder why the exact yields are not know...hmm could it be because all their yields are plot devices to be increased at will. I would like to see a missle catch a federation vessel. Also "A Constitution-class starship's shields could take the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes at once. (TOS: "The Changeling")" 50Mt x 90 =4.5Gt on a ship that is over 100 years old. Even if they weren't shot down, even if they weren't outrun, they could be taken. The fact that Horizon had to have dummy missiles proves they can be shot down by SG ships so that means they can be by ST ships.

It does not suggest more power especially since it is stated that there are weapons that have more raw output such as the Ori main cannon or the Lantean satellite weapon. The nature of the plasma beam weapons are accuracy and firing rate to overwhelm shielding before they could recover from the previous attack unlike the standard pulse style weapons of the SG universe. So an ori ship that possesses shields are enhanced with ascended knowledge, and are shown to be the most powerful and resilient shields on a ship in the SG universe aside from City ships. These shields couldnt stand up to a weapon like what Federation, and other St races, vessels use as standard? That would mean that anything less than an Ori ship couldnt stand up to phaser fire. I think you just killed your entire argument on a SG win once you admitted that a high energy rapid firing beam can defeat even shields enhanced by higher plane beings in SG.

Go red matter lol

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I have to note that Star Trek weapons have been shown to disintegrate matter on multiple occasions, a number of which are listed in this link:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser

So where targets are viewed from the orbit of say a planet you may not see huge fireballs or anything like you would expect to see from regular nukes.

They are efficient, we've seen up close vaporization of many targets, yet no huge fireballs or anything of the sort, because that's how the producers have chosen to represent their creations.
There's an in-universe explanation.
It's been some time since I saw the episode of DS9 where the breen attacked Earth, I'll have to check it out, but I wouldn't be suprized if the producers only intended for the breen to destroy buildings or miltary targets.


I would like someone to explain to me how weapons from a race such as the ori, which are considered by many to be among the most powerful races in the Stargate universe, well how they do nothing but destroy a village and leave nothing but scorch marks on the ground in The Line In The Sand.

In fact if Goauld weapons are so powerful compared to those of Star Trek races then why is it Ha'Taks have never been actually shown to do any damage to the ground around targets they are attemting to destroy.
No craters are seen from what I can recall, the Borg left a huge crater in the ground that used to have a Starfleet colony sitting on top of it in Best Of Both Worlds.

Why is it Wraith weapons don't leave a planet completely uninhabitable when they've struck a planet's surface time and again?
Why did they not boil away the ocean abive atlantis during the Ancient/Wraith war?
Since no one's allowed to use the reasonable explaination of "it's the writers choice to display the consequences in that way" or Budget issues aren't allowed, then there has to be some in-universe reasoning for why that happens, you can't have it both ways, you need to explain that if you want people to explain why things happen a certain way Star Trek.

I would also like to know why my post was completely ingored, I dealt with every part of your's Darth, yet you have ignored mine?

I will also say that it doesn't matter what we like or dislike about each show's canon, if a particular fact is made clear to us about each show then that is canon.
Like I've pointed out above Stargate doesn't always show things how they would appear in real life.

[darth_timon]

Beyond the fast that number have been given in the show to attest to this and the fact that a human eye cannot register .5c here is where I got it from in this instance: (http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive)

I will grant you that the stated figures from Memory Alpha sound impressive- but the only one to stack up is the one from The Motion Picture- and this does not explain why ships move so slowly relative to one another when fighting battles, especially when they are apparently traveling in different directions to one another (DS9 Sacrifice of Angels again, specifically when the Klingon re-inforcements appear).

So you are saying that modern day military would jam siganls but a military weapon from over 400 years in the future from a timeline that is supposed to be our future would not? Interesting. -_- you seem to want to name all the plot devices imaginable. Think logically, if you have a scanner capable of detecting things fairly accurately from light years away why would it be easy to jam your scanners up close?

I don't recall saying that the dreadnought wasn't using jamming technology. I simply said I don't recall any references to it in the episode. Interestingly enough, your own source for impulse speeds doesn't mention any jamming technology employed by the dreadnought http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dreadnought_%28episode%29

Whilst we hear of the Dominion using EM pulses to jam enemy communications (although not sensors) in Sacrifice of Angels, we don't hear anything about it in nearly every other Star Trek battle scene, yet nearly every Star Trek battle is fought as point-blank range, and the ships don't move as fast as dialogue suggests. I also refer you to this link for a series of canon references from TNG for impulse speeds: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/...&Submit=Submit

Thats like saying all SG battles take place a few kilometers from each other. It relative space for crying out loud. If you have a weapon with a range of 300,000 kilometers why would you decide to use it only a few kilometers away. Thats like shooting someone point blank when you are using a sniper rifle. Space battles in shows are shown close because showing two dots 300k km away from each other with glowing lines going back and forth would be boring. The same way that there is sound in a space battle when you know full well there is NO sound in space. Its for our benefit as viewers its not meant to be true to the actual capabilities and physics of the technology.

SG battles do indeed take place at similar ranges, which makes it easy for missiles to find their targets. It also makes it easier for the Trek ships to hit their SG counterparts, but this is not a big issue, given the superior firepower of SG ships.

No is suggests a great limitation on the story the writers want to convey. Rational uses of technology is put forth then not used because it would change the story. Like the TR-116(Or any ballistic weapon for that matter) would be effective against the Borgs drones but then it would take away a great deal of the suspense of the Borg boarding a ship of everyone had a shotgun waiting to blast the first drone they see. The potential as you say is the reality of it and what is seen on screen is merely what the writers want to convey at the time.

What it conveys in context of in-universe is that the Federation is collectively stupid for not making full use of it's technology.

Again, will have to reply to the rest later.

[Gatefan1976]

What it conveys in context of in-universe is that the Federation is collectively stupid for not making full use of it's technology.

OK, I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but that statement makes my skin crawl. What you are essentially suggesting is that if "we have nukes, we should use them" This is a position that Trek specificaly tries to overcome i.e., might makes right. Trek does have tech that blows 'gate out of the water but due to it's "moral imperative", chooses not to use it. Is that stupid or is that principled?

[darth_timon]

Right, as I am pressed for time and don't know when that situation will change, I would like to issue a general reply to my opponents.

The main argument I have seen is the oft-repeated 'artistic licence' position. I don't place much faith in this position because it dismisses all the evidence in favour of any argument you want. If we saw the Death Star blow up a Federation ship, would we use artistic licence to write off the incident and insist Fed ships are capable of much more?

I stick to what can be observed and use dialogue to back up those observations. Where there are contradictions, I seek to rationalize them in context of what we see on the show.

[darth_timon]

I wonder why the exact yields are not know...hmm could it be because all their yields are plot devices to be increased at will. I would like to see a missle catch a federation vessel. Also "A Constitution-class starship's shields could take the equivalent of 90 photon torpedoes at once. (TOS: "The Changeling")" 50Mt x 90 =4.5Gt on a ship that is over 100 years old. Even if they weren't shot down, even if they weren't outrun, they could be taken. The fact that Horizon had to have dummy missiles proves they can be shot down by SG ships so that means they can be by ST ships.

Given that a Hatak has cannons which can fire anything from 1.3GT to 1.6GT with a single shot, we arrive at the conclusion that just four shots from a Hatak is greater than a Constitution's entire torpedo load! Plus, in subsequent Star Trek shows, we see that Federation ships most definitely cannot take another vessel's entire torpedo load, and the shields frequently fail (or are brought down considerably) by much smaller salvos. In the TNG Season 3 episode 'Survivors', a Husnock ship knocked the Enterprise-D's shields with a single 600GW blast. This is the equivalent of 0.5MT. Hardly likely to stand up to a Hatak.

It's also worth noting that firepower seems to 'bleed' through Federation shields, given the numerous examples in battles where systems are shorting out and sparks are shooting out of consoles even before shield failure.

As for why we don't know the yields of the current missiles on a 304- we haven't seen their missiles in action against targets who's properties we know of. This doesn't mean you can fall back on the argument of 'plot device'.

It does not suggest more power especially since it is stated that there are weapons that have more raw output such as the Ori main cannon or the Lantean satellite weapon. The nature of the plasma beam weapons are accuracy and firing rate to overwhelm shielding before they could recover from the previous attack unlike the standard pulse style weapons of the SG universe. So an ori ship that possesses shields are enhanced with ascended knowledge, and are shown to be the most powerful and resilient shields on a ship in the SG universe aside from City ships. These shields couldnt stand up to a weapon like what Federation, and other St races, vessels use as standard? That would mean that anything less than an Ori ship couldnt stand up to phaser fire. I think you just killed your entire argument on a SG win once you admitted that a high energy rapid firing beam can defeat even shields enhanced by higher plane beings in SG.

Actually, power remains the primary issue. It matters not whether the energy is delivered in pulses, sustained beams, or by hurling rocks, it's the end result- how much power is involved. Note that in the SG1 Season 9 finale the Ori also fired with pulse-style cannons as well as beams, and these pulse cannons destroyed Hataks. Note again that the Defiant in DS9 uses pulse phasers a lot of the time. However, what is ultimately the main issue is how much power those weapons can deliver to their target. If the shields aren't able to withstand the energy, they will fail, regardless of beam weapon or pulse.