Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[Gormagon]

I know that signature. You get that from the Vorlons?

[Gormagon]

As far as the weaponry, here are some examples...
Standard photon torpedo- 67.5 megatons. Goa'uld naquadah bomb-Multi-gigaton capable, meaning 1000+ megatons. Goa'uld blast cannon-200 megatons. Galaxy class phaser bank-4166 terawatts, roughly 1 megaton. I can get more if required.

An Intrepid class (Voyager) ships shields are roughly capable of absorbing 688,500 terajoules, or, about 168 megatons. Galaxy class,(Enterprise D, T.N.G) 2,700,000 terajoules, 659 megatons. Sovereign class,(Enterprise E, T.N.G movies) 4,563,000 terajoules, 1113 megatons. That is never minding modulation advantages, but still. The Goa'uld, who have some of the weakest shields in Stargate, have multi-gigaton force shields, and that is just on standard Ha'tak class vessels.

Then you got the Asgard, Alterans, Ori, Hebridan, e.c.t.

Warp 9.9, I think it is 3053x C.(C = speed of light in vacuum) Goa'uld Hyper drive, 32,000x C. Asgard hyper drive, 26 million-28million x C.

I love Star Trek, but Stargate ships own Star Trek ships.

The writers of TOS went over warp 9.9.... several times. But in the new shows warp 10 in considered infinite speed, and not very useful. In the book Vendetta, you cant even reach warp 10. In Voyager, they did but it proved even less then useful.

ST warp. Slipstream drive. Transwarp drive.

Goa'uld hyperdrive, Asgard hyperdrive, Ancient wormhole drive. In the least SG wins in the area of F.T.L.
Sublight, Prometheus, Earths second crappiest F.T.L vessel, could reach about 50% C. I read somewhere that full impulse in 25% C., although Voyager supposedly could reach 80% C. But Ancient sublight drives could reach 99.9%...C. So, for sublight I.D.K, Id say equal.

Overall, SG wins over ST, according to the writers and math. SG ships have to many advantages. But I still love ST.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Gormagon I think you're forgetting that ST vastly outnumbers SG, most major races have thousands of ships, the Dominion were stated to have tens of thousands I believe, the Borg were stated to have millions, 8472 had a swarm of what looked like tens of thousands of bio ships and ST has many more races in the Milky Way than SG has throughout the whole of the SG universe shown so far.

I'm not going to go into doing a full blown reply to Darth Timon or Qingbest right now because I don't have the time, but as Tetsujin has stated pretty much all of the things they keep bringing up have been rebutted many times.
You can't really argue with what both visual and diologue (combined in the major cases) pieces of evidence represent.

Some people keep trying to steer the debate away from the fact that no SG race has ever been shown, on screen to actually deliver gigatons or even megaton level shots of firepower, it's rarely even kiloton if we go by visual and many circumstances, at least ST does have examples of higher yields that we can observe and that fits with diologue.

No one's argueing that SG doesn't have faster FTL propulsion, but it's lagging far behind in fleet sizes, firepower (that's actually linked to it's ship's weapons) and galaxy to race density.
I don't see how anyone can argue that SG would win when taking into consideration the alliances and fleet sizes of ST.

I may write a reply to those posts addressed towards me soon.

[Gormagon]

But I was talking more on a bases of 1 on 1 dual sort of battles SG ships Vs ST ships never minding uber tech for now.

And yes, Star Trek has more races and thousands of ships, and the Borg and 8472 are major threats to SG I agree with that. (The Borg meet the Replicators, everyone looses.)

Remember, the Goa'uld wiped out any race they could not use (Or even some they could just for fun.) I bet they wiped out thousands of races.

They also had ships throughout the M.W. If there were 12-24 System lords at any one time, then there were probably 1200-2400 Ha'tak class ships at the Goa'uld empires disposal. Then you got hundreds or even thousands of minor Goa'uld who have 1-10 Motherships. Plus thousands of Al'kesh, tens of thousands of gliders, and who knows how many Tel'tak. And that is just the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld had some of least powerful ships of the major powers in SG. You still have the Asgard, Wraith, Tau'ri, Ori, Hebridan, Aschen.....

And the F.T.L b.t.w, would make a gigantic difference. Even vastly outnumbered, they could out maneuver ST ships any day of the week, nullifying much of the ST numbers based advantage. ST ships would take weeks-months to YEARS traveling at warp 9.9 to get to were a Ha'tak could get in days, weeks at most. And Asgard ships...one Beliskner could pick off entire battle groups in minutes, then zooooom to another section in seconds. And it could escape easily if in danger. Then you got O'Neill class, Daniel Jackson class, and drone fighter bombers,(Yes, look up Asgard bomber on SG wiki).

And about the weapons, energy weapons have variable settings. And naquadah/Naquadria bombs have been demonstrated, and those were only Tau'ri bombs. Goa'uld could make way better naquadah bombs.

But more to the point, a war between SG and ST would set the galaxy ablaze. Wait, galaxy. Single. Stargate covers many galaxies.

[darth_timon]

We're not talking about Asteroids impacting the surface of a planet, we're talking about weapons that have never been shown to produce the kinds of effects you claim necessary here.
We never see a clear, close up shot of the surface, we only see distance shots of the planet, from the dark side of the Founder's planet.
Your claims that the crew members of all ships must be wrong is obsurd, we're talking about many crew members onboard all of the Cardassian/Romulan fleet, they couldn't all be wrong, they reported 30% of the planet's crust being destroyed on opening volley, this would only be possible with higher than gigaton level firepower, which would be consistent with what we've seen from the show, Federation starships and other race's vessels take this kind of firepower on a daily basis, but you obviously don't like this fact so you poke holes in this evidence because it isn't represented in a way you would expect it to be.
The Founder's homeworld is not like Earth, it is a rouge planet and thus would be effected very differently to how anything terrestrial would.
We see fast moving shockwaves accross large portions of the planet's surface, this could only be possible with high powered weapons.

I didn’t mention asteroids. I pointed out that with large releases of energy we should see certain effects. If those effects are not present (and they are not present in TDIC) then something else must be responsible for the levels of apparent destruction to the planet. Your theory is some undefined mechanism that can cause damage through DET and yet magic away the effects (which actually defeats the whole purpose of unleashing such firepower in the first place, since those effects are what do the damage). My theory is that some sort of chain reaction is in place. Chain reactions are known to exist in science, whereas your theory is not supported in any way.

Here your reasoning is very flawed.
Just by dropping resonably sized chunks of matter through the surface and allowing it to smash into the surface of the planet the Borg could do more damage than those shots did, obviously their initial intention wasn't to instantly destroy everything in sight, they'd want all the drones they could get.
You have no evidence that the Borg's intention was to destroy the missile silo, only other character's assumptions.
If the Borg wanted to assimilate the Alpha quadrant then there'd be no better way to do it (without the entire Borg fleet going back in time) than by using the test flight to draw the attention of the Vulcans, then assimilate them when they got there, they then send Drones on the Vulcan shuttle to other nearby worlds and spread themselves throughout the galaxy much faster and remove their enemy's when they are less advanced.
Without the sphere they'd have to build a fleet of ships on Earth and wouldn't have any defenses against alien races until they'd built them up, this would be a much better strategy than just sending the phoenix to the first warp capable world and risk retalliation before they've gained any advantage.

Destroying one silo (and why would they be firing on it if not to destroy it?) would still leave billions of humans to assimilate. That missile complex didn’t look very large and I doubt it housed much more than a few hundred people. By your logic about assimilating the Vulcan ship, the Borg would have sent drones down to capture the Pheonix instead of shooting at it. Finally, the Borg Queen herself had Data fire at the Phoenix right at the end of the film (using THREE quantum torpedoes to take out the puny Phoenix!). You don’t usually fire a dozen or so shots at something unless you want to destroy it, so the burden to prove some other motive lies with you.

These ships were battling the Klingons, we often hear it said that ships are traveling at full impulse, this can only be relativistic speed.
Enterprise D has been shown to travel at many kilometers per hour, when even full maneuvering thrusters are used, the Enterprise in the motion picture was stated to traverse a large portion of our solar system within minutes using full impulse, which would be relativistic speed and these two incedents were long before this episode of DS9.
If these ships are fighting klingon ships and aim to inflict damage or evade it why would they travel at a low speed?
If we suspend disbelief (which means to ignore what is illogical and has nothing to do with your method of evidence finding), then it would seem wrong for these ships to be less advanced than their 22nd or whatever century Federation counterpart, well it is just plain wrong to believe these ships were not traveling at high near c velocities.

Dismiss visual evidence all you want. It changes nothing about what we see.

There's no evidence the Breen fleet actually made it to Earth, there's no evidence to actually reference from this evidence besides parts of buildings being damaged, this can be done with phaser fire and small explosives, ship weapons would do far more damage as is proven by the Enterprise D being able to drill holes 1600 meters deep in the ground and an NX-01's phase cannons being able to level a mountain.

The HQ's damage level is similar to that of the Cardassian city in What You Leave Behind so the only conlusion we can draw is that some Breen troops made it to Federation HQ and managed to inflict some damage after abandoning their destroyed ships, which didn't manage to get a shot off at Earth.[/QUOTE]

The damage to the Cardassian city happened over a sustained period of time and was either carried out by troops who A: had access to to as yet unseen ground weaponry, B: numbers (the Dominion was after all a large presence on Cardassia), C: some combination of the two or D: orbital bombardment from the fleet, which was after all in orbit and would represent the safest way of dealing with the Cardassians. A is unlikely, as ground troops have never demonstrated this sort of capability. B is possible, but not for the earth situation: how likely is it that the Breen were able to land troops en masse whilst being shot at?

D is far more likely because it actually fits with the observed performance of Alpha Quadrant forces. If the Breen ships had gotten close enough to land troops they would also be close enough to open fire, so it would be royally stupid on their part to NOT fire if they had the chance.

The inside of the sphere must have had a shied or artificial atmosphere protecting the surface, otherwise the people who originally lived there would be unable to survive, even you must have to admit the possibility of someone living without an atmosphere of any kind, when there appears to be greenary on the surface of the sphere is pretty ludicrous.

If it had enough artificial gravity it wouldn’t need a shield to hold an atmosphere in place- the overall point though, is that the activity of the star was not that great- our own sun goes through periods of increased solar activity- this doesn’t mean it’s output will rise to the point that oceans boil away. The star in Relics was not affecting the habitable portion of the sphere and this is what is key. If the race that built it had forcefields to protect them they would not have abandoned so large a construct, and don’t tell me the instability of the star was a factor because it was not going unstable, Data merely said ‘increased activity.’

I notice how you didn't actually bring up any proof that SG has anything better than ST in terms of firepower.

I didn’t say that was the purpose of my post- I have another article regarding this, that I will come to in due course.

[Tetsujin]

I didn’t mention asteroids. I pointed out that with large releases of energy we should see certain effects. If those effects are not present (and they are not present in TDIC) then something else must be responsible for the levels of apparent destruction to the planet. Your theory is some undefined mechanism that can cause damage through DET and yet magic away the effects (which actually defeats the whole purpose of unleashing such firepower in the first place, since those effects are what do the damage). My theory is that some sort of chain reaction is in place. Chain reactions are known to exist in science, whereas your theory is not supported in any way.

What is the main side effect of a nuclear winter....dust blocking out the sun. If I destroy a large portion of the surface do you not think that the planet would be covered at least for a period of time. Again we are not trying to "magic away" things. Even when enterprise blew up that mountain we didnt see molten anything all we see is large amounts of dust and debris.

Destroying one silo (and why would they be firing on it if not to destroy it?) would still leave billions of humans to assimilate. That missile complex didn’t look very large and I doubt it housed much more than a few hundred people. By your logic about assimilating the Vulcan ship, the Borg would have sent drones down to capture the Pheonix instead of shooting at it. Finally, the Borg Queen herself had Data fire at the Phoenix right at the end of the film (using THREE quantum torpedoes to take out the puny Phoenix!). You don’t usually fire a dozen or so shots at something unless you want to destroy it, so the burden to prove some other motive lies with you.

Honestly this one is the most basic of common sense issues. We see a HAND PHASER blow things up a high setting. Not a phaser cannon, not a phaser rifle, but the 9mm of phasers. Its even possible that the derringer of phasers(Type I) would be capable of such mayhem. We also see a HAND PHASER overload and cause an explosion. Are you trying to prove your point in such a manner that you will ignore something that is so obviously a plot issue that it hurts. Come on now be serious, we are talking a bout 200 years after the mountain explosion thing. We are also talking about the Borg(more advanced than the Enterprise D than used its phasers on low power to burrow into the surface of a planet within seconds). You are trying to attribute a ship hundreds of years more advanced than us, firing directed energy pulses from orbit the firepower of a WWI Artillery round -_-. If you cant accept this one as a plot device then I do not believe that I can have a serious debate with you any longer. I can accept we disagree on other issues and argue my point, but this one is just to flat out obvious to even be talking about.

Dismiss visual evidence all you want. It changes nothing about what we see.

So as far as visual evidence is concerned we can hear things in space, and starships are in no way affected by newtonian physics in space(Object in motion stays in motion) Also weapons are capable of standoff ranges but lets make our ships face each othe and stand still. Visuals are sometimes a flawed reference.

The HQ's damage level is similar to that of the Cardassian city in What You Leave Behind so the only conlusion we can draw is that some Breen troops made it to Federation HQ and managed to inflict some damage after abandoning their destroyed ships, which didn't manage to get a shot off at Earth.

Again are you kidding me. I will again point out the phaser incident 200 years ago, the destructive power of a mere hand phaser, the fact that a phaser on low power can drill through a planets surface like a hot knife through butter. There seems to be a real double standard if you believe the repitition of these canon events yet believe a torpedo from any race would realistically leave anything but a crater. This is 200 years after they stopped using fusion warheads so unless they researched how to make their technology as weak as possible over the past 200 years I dont see logic in your statement. Yes I agree its what we saw on screen but we also hear in space on screen too.

If it had enough artificial gravity it wouldn’t need a shield to hold an atmosphere in place- the overall point though, is that the activity of the star was not that great- our own sun goes through periods of increased solar activity- this doesn’t mean it’s output will rise to the point that oceans boil away. The star in Relics was not affecting the habitable portion of the sphere and this is what is key. If the race that built it had forcefields to protect them they would not have abandoned so large a construct, and don’t tell me the instability of the star was a factor because it was not going unstable, Data merely said ‘increased activity.’

Again logical deduction and research. Yes gravity would be capable of holding certain gasses down to create an atmosphere. But you forgot the main source of protection that makes our planet livable......the magnetosphere. Without the magnetosphere Earth would go the way of Mars. Without an artificial magnetosphere of some type a construct such as that would not be livable for humanoid life. The star was not affecting the habitable portion of the sphere when we saw it that one time. Think logically about this, imagine your are part of a species not only adavanced enough for space travel, but to build and dyson sphere. You have created this artificial environment using the most advanced materials you can think of. Now, after using all of the rescources from your own solar system and possibly others to complete this project. Your star throws a little hissy fit that in no way affects where you live. What do you do? Nothing! If the situation wasnt serious enough to merrit leaving I highly doubt they would have left.

Using the liquid water excuse is getting a bit old. Like I said previously if we were talking about a natural planet then sure. However, we are talking about a controlled advanced artificial environment that can more likely than not replenish the water supplies and repair the environment over time. Or does your liquid water theory include them shipping liquid water from all over the sector to fill their pond? Also how much natural plant growth can occurs in a few decades.(which is about the minimum amount of time the race abandoned the sphere since no one was home when Mr. Scott crashed.)

[Gormagon]

But I was talking more on a bases of 1 on 1 dual sort of battles SG ships Vs ST ships never minding uber tech for now.

And yes, Star Trek has more races and thousands of ships, and the Borg and 8472 are major threats to SG I agree with that. (The Borg meet the Replicators, everyone looses.)

Remember, the Goa'uld wiped out any race they could not use (Or even some they could just for fun.) I bet they wiped out thousands of races.

They also had ships throughout the M.W. If there were 12-24 System lords at any one time, then there were probably 1200-2400 Ha'tak class ships at the Goa'uld empires disposal. Then you got hundreds or even thousands of minor Goa'uld who have 1-10 Motherships. Plus thousands of Al'kesh, tens of thousands of gliders, and who knows how many Tel'tak. And that is just the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld had some of least powerful ships of the major powers in SG. You still have the Asgard, Wraith, Tau'ri, Ori, Hebridan, Aschen.....

And the F.T.L b.t.w, would make a gigantic difference. Even vastly outnumbered, they could out maneuver ST ships any day of the week, nullifying much of the ST numbers based advantage. ST ships would take weeks-months to YEARS traveling at warp 9.9 to get to were a Ha'tak could get in days, weeks at most. And Asgard ships...one Beliskner could pick off entire battle groups in minutes, then zooooom to another section in seconds. And it could escape easily if in danger. Then you got O'Neill class, Daniel Jackson class, and drone fighter bombers,(Yes, look up Asgard bomber on SG wiki).

And about the weapons, energy weapons have variable settings. And naquadah/Naquadria bombs have been demonstrated, and those were only Tau'ri bombs. Goa'uld could make way better naquadah bombs.

But more to the point, a war between SG and ST would set the galaxy ablaze. Wait, galaxy. Single. Stargate covers many galaxies.

[Tetsujin]

But I was talking more on a bases of 1 on 1 dual sort of battles SG ships Vs ST ships never minding uber tech for now.

And yes, Star Trek has more races and thousands of ships, and the Borg and 8472 are major threats to SG I agree with that. (The Borg meet the Replicators, everyone looses.)

Remember, the Goa'uld wiped out any race they could not use (Or even some they could just for fun.) I bet they wiped out thousands of races.

I dont think the main focus of this discussion has ever been an all out melee.

They also had ships throughout the M.W. If there were 12-24 System lords at any one time, then there were probably 1200-2400 Ha'tak class ships at the Goa'uld empires disposal. Then you got hundreds or even thousands of minor Goa'uld who have 1-10 Motherships. Plus thousands of Al'kesh, tens of thousands of gliders, and who knows how many Tel'tak. And that is just the Goa'uld. The Goa'uld had some of least powerful ships of the major powers in SG. You still have the Asgard, Wraith, Tau'ri, Ori, Hebridan, Aschen.....

There might be that many system lords with a loose interpretation of the title, but I very much doubt there were ever too many more than 10 system lords who actually deserved the title at any one time. I also do not believe any single Goa'uld ever had direct control of more than 50 Ha'tak at a time(Under regular circumstances) There are quite a few episodes that show fleet sized of Ha'tak couldnt be more than a few hundred for the empire as a whole as the loss of a hand full of motherships would be inconsequential if each major system lord had access to hundreds of them. Even times where we hear the Goa'uld themselves talk about large fleets they barely go into the double digits when actually seen. Just saying.

About the Asgard, who knows. As the show portrays them they seem like they have about 7 ships in all or something.

And the F.T.L b.t.w, would make a gigantic difference. Even vastly outnumbered, they could out maneuver ST ships any day of the week, nullifying much of the ST numbers based advantage. ST ships would take weeks-months to YEARS traveling at warp 9.9 to get to were a Ha'tak could get in days, weeks at most. And Asgard ships...one Beliskner could pick off entire battle groups in minutes, then zooooom to another section in seconds. And it could escape easily if in danger. Then you got O'Neill class, Daniel Jackson class, and drone fighter bombers,(Yes, look up Asgard bomber on SG wiki).

Two words for you, Quantum Slipstream. Wouldnt even them up as far as fleet movements go but at least the federations most powerful ships can utilize it so yea.

And about the weapons, energy weapons have variable settings. And naquadah/Naquadria bombs have been demonstrated, and those were only Tau'ri bombs. Goa'uld could make way better naquadah bombs.

I have kinda been jaded. It a pretty negative connotation when I think of someone in particular refering to visuals being undeniable and the evidence of First Contact making ST weapons weak yet we see events like that all across SG. If the Goauld had bombs that powerful on demand I think they would use them more. Like when they tried to take out the Tok'ra base. One good few megatons would have done it but we just see Alkesh hammer away. You could use the "they want to steal technology" theory, but I would think crippling a long time foe is more important that maybe possibly finding some piece of technology that could potentially be useful. Especially when the Tok'Ra are severely limited in number and are dying off.

[qingbest]

I dont think the main focus of this discussion has ever been an all out melee.



There might be that many system lords with a loose interpretation of the title, but I very much doubt there were ever too many more than 10 system lords who actually deserved the title at any one time. I also do not believe any single Goa'uld ever had direct control of more than 50 Ha'tak at a time(Under regular circumstances) There are quite a few episodes that show fleet sized of Ha'tak couldnt be more than a few hundred for the empire as a whole as the loss of a hand full of motherships would be inconsequential if each major system lord had access to hundreds of them. Even times where we hear the Goa'uld themselves talk about large fleets they barely go into the double digits when actually seen. Just saying.

About the Asgard, who knows. As the show portrays them they seem like they have about 7 ships in all or something.



Two words for you, Quantum Slipstream. Wouldnt even them up as far as fleet movements go but at least the federations most powerful ships can utilize it so yea.



I have kinda been jaded. It a pretty negative connotation when I think of someone in particular refering to visuals being undeniable and the evidence of First Contact making ST weapons weak yet we see events like that all across SG. If the Goauld had bombs that powerful on demand I think they would use them more. Like when they tried to take out the Tok'ra base. One good few megatons would have done it but we just see Alkesh hammer away. You could use the "they want to steal technology" theory, but I would think crippling a long time foe is more important that maybe possibly finding some piece of technology that could potentially be useful. Especially when the Tok'Ra are severely limited in number and are dying off.

"A few megatons" I think of it as a 100 megaton explosion that would have done it as their base is like about like a few hundred meters under ground and they are made of a crystal form but we don't know the chemical resemblance.

BTW I won't be online for a while I think about 1-2 years hope the forum is still here by the time.

Now here is the question that I would ask all ST fans: Can a single starship/spaceship sustain fire from 9 motherships/ships in 44 minutes? If you refer to SGU: Trial and Error it will stat in its second simulation on the ships systems but if you look closely there are still hull breaches and other relations to the ship's damage and viability. This simulation is based on the ships current stat, power of the enemy which is archived in the ships systems from previous encounters, etc, but you wouldn't have a 50+ million year old ship against a what like 50 years old one? I have the original script for some of the episodes and it clearly stats in them with the ship in the corona of a star while recharging. However with that I am like the only one who has a copy of it besides the producers and other personnel from the show as I was going to write a novel on the episodes.

As for FTL YOU need to tell me how fast it goes as I have not watched many episodes from ST.
However going to darths post from TDIC it stats the planets crust is 30% destroyed however we don see magma bubbling up on the surface, Particles of dust and other elements from the surface that is what it shows however MAGMA will always be present when the crust is damaged as it is comprised mainly of it. To conclude SGU: Epilogue is when the planet is being destroyed by a black hole we see the effect of the planet in question magma when the ship is entering FTL we see the red/orange colour while they are leaving the system. SGU: Gauntlet the shuttle exploding in space I estimate around about 8MT in the explosion using the ratio 1cm on screen equals to approx. 10m in real distance I would say the command ship is about 80-90m in size vertically on screen how it is. The systems on the ship is in another language and I can understand some of it, however my knowledge of the language is rudimentary at best but it is a root of latin so I can translate it in some time. SGU: Incursion to the best of my knowledge on the language according to my translated every blast of the "Binary Pulsar" is approx. on screen it is about 400TW at best translation however it could be more it could be less however that is my best translation of the rating however while the blast continue I see a increase of approx. 100TW every time it hits the ship, that is the reason why the ship light continuously flickered on and off as the ship is drawing extra power to compensate, however the more powerful the blast the more power it has to draw, by my best it seems to draw the exact amount of power as the ship is being hit with plus the shields reserves that is already charged then plus the extra power Destiny shield system cycles through various frequencies to match incoming energy based attack.

BTW If I don't make sense then you'll have to wait til I get back from part-time work and homework

[darth_timon]

What is the main side effect of a nuclear winter....dust blocking out the sun. If I destroy a large portion of the surface do you not think that the planet would be covered at least for a period of time. Again we are not trying to "magic away" things. Even when enterprise blew up that mountain we didnt see molten anything all we see is large amounts of dust and debris.

In TDIC we are talking about an event that was meant to destroy 30% of the planet's surface with only a handful of powerful shots. You can't achieve the level of destruction claimed with the observed salvo without doing a lot more than simply kicking up dust- unless the destruction is through some means other than energy transfer.

Honestly this one is the most basic of common sense issues. We see a HAND PHASER blow things up a high setting. Not a phaser cannon, not a phaser rifle, but the 9mm of phasers. Its even possible that the derringer of phasers(Type I) would be capable of such mayhem. We also see a HAND PHASER overload and cause an explosion. Are you trying to prove your point in such a manner that you will ignore something that is so obviously a plot issue that it hurts. Come on now be serious, we are talking a bout 200 years after the mountain explosion thing. We are also talking about the Borg(more advanced than the Enterprise D than used its phasers on low power to burrow into the surface of a planet within seconds). You are trying to attribute a ship hundreds of years more advanced than us, firing directed energy pulses from orbit the firepower of a WWI Artillery round -_-. If you cant accept this one as a plot device then I do not believe that I can have a serious debate with you any longer. I can accept we disagree on other issues and argue my point, but this one is just to flat out obvious to even be talking about.

Using plot device to dismiss evidence is simply a dodge. Fact is, the events of First Contact are not only damming, they are supported by both other visual evidence and dialogue, which ties together consistently.


[QuoteSo as far as visual evidence is concerned we can hear things in space, and starships are in no way affected by newtonian physics in space(Object in motion stays in motion) Also weapons are capable of standoff ranges but lets make our ships face each othe and stand still. Visuals are sometimes a flawed reference.[/quote]

And yet the visuals for battles are consistent and we even have Sisko ordering the Defiant to close to 500 metres before firing in TDIC.

Again are you kidding me. I will again point out the phaser incident 200 years ago, the destructive power of a mere hand phaser, the fact that a phaser on low power can drill through a planets surface like a hot knife through butter. There seems to be a real double standard if you believe the repitition of these canon events yet believe a torpedo from any race would realistically leave anything but a crater. This is 200 years after they stopped using fusion warheads so unless they researched how to make their technology as weak as possible over the past 200 years I dont see logic in your statement. Yes I agree its what we saw on screen but we also hear in space on screen too.

I will again point out the numerous examples contradicting Silent Enemy and on top of that how having these uber powerful hand phasers would have been handy in episodes like The Siege of AR558.

Again logical deduction and research. Yes gravity would be capable of holding certain gasses down to create an atmosphere. But you forgot the main source of protection that makes our planet livable......the magnetosphere. Without the magnetosphere Earth would go the way of Mars. Without an artificial magnetosphere of some type a construct such as that would not be livable for humanoid life. The star was not affecting the habitable portion of the sphere when we saw it that one time. Think logically about this, imagine your are part of a species not only adavanced enough for space travel, but to build and dyson sphere. You have created this artificial environment using the most advanced materials you can think of. Now, after using all of the rescources from your own solar system and possibly others to complete this project. Your star throws a little hissy fit that in no way affects where you live. What do you do? Nothing! If the situation wasnt serious enough to merrit leaving I highly doubt they would have left.

Using the liquid water excuse is getting a bit old. Like I said previously if we were talking about a natural planet then sure. However, we are talking about a controlled advanced artificial environment that can more likely than not replenish the water supplies and repair the environment over time. Or does your liquid water theory include them shipping liquid water from all over the sector to fill their pond? Also how much natural plant growth can occurs in a few decades.(which is about the minimum amount of time the race abandoned the sphere since no one was home when Mr. Scott crashed.)

An artificial magnetosphere doesn't have any bearing on whether the star was especially energetic, as it will be temperature increases that boil away the oceans, regardless of a magnetic field. Therefore the star could not have possessed significant output.

[Tetsujin]

"A few megatons" I think of it as a 100 megaton explosion that would have done it as their base is like about like a few hundred meters under ground and they are made of a crystal form but we don't know the chemical resemblance.

Well a Ha'tak is supposed to have 200 megaton shots so I think they would have been able to get the job done fairly quickly if that was true.

Now here is the question that I would ask all ST fans: Can a single starship/spaceship sustain fire from 9 motherships/ships in 44 minutes? If you refer to SGU: Trial and Error it will stat in its second simulation on the ships systems but if you look closely there are still hull breaches and other relations to the ship's damage and viability. This simulation is based on the ships current stat, power of the enemy which is archived in the ships systems from previous encounters, etc, but you wouldn't have a 50+ million year old ship against a what like 50 years old one? I have the original script for some of the episodes and it clearly stats in them with the ship in the corona of a star while recharging. However with that I am like the only one who has a copy of it besides the producers and other personnel from the show as I was going to write a novel on the episodes.

Umm we are talking about a Lantean ship with Lantean shields vs weapons of unknown strength and effectiveness. We do not even know if they are even as advanced as the Goa'uld so I dont really see that as any kind of evidence. Well to have a ship recharge in that fashion you would have to design shields to survive that kind of environment. Metaphasic shields come to mind.

As for FTL YOU need to tell me how fast it goes as I have not watched many episodes from ST.

The actual alien ship supposedly traveled 60,000ly in 3 months(not verifiable as it was a forgery), then traveled 15ly in a few minutes(actual usage). Voyagers drive traveled back to Borg space which was months away in the opposite direction using standard warp speeds. Then in a single hour traveled back to their original position plus an additional 300ly. With the upgraded drive Voyager traveled somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000ly in a few minutes. Definitely debatable considering the different flow of time in show but it was definitely no longer than a maximum of a few hours.

However going to darths post from TDIC it stats the planets crust is 30% destroyed however we don see magma bubbling up on the surface, Particles of dust and other elements from the surface that is what it shows however MAGMA will always be present when the crust is damaged as it is comprised mainly of it. To conclude SGU: Epilogue is when the planet is being destroyed by a black hole we see the effect of the planet in question magma when the ship is entering FTL we see the red/orange colour while they are leaving the system. SGU: Gauntlet the shuttle exploding in space I estimate around about 8MT in the explosion using the ratio 1cm on screen equals to approx. 10m in real distance I would say the command ship is about 80-90m in size vertically on screen how it is. The systems on the ship is in another language and I can understand some of it, however my knowledge of the language is rudimentary at best but it is a root of latin so I can translate it in some time. SGU: Incursion to the best of my knowledge on the language according to my translated every blast of the "Binary Pulsar" is approx. on screen it is about 400TW at best translation however it could be more it could be less however that is my best translation of the rating however while the blast continue I see a increase of approx. 100TW every time it hits the ship, that is the reason why the ship light continuously flickered on and off as the ship is drawing extra power to compensate, however the more powerful the blast the more power it has to draw, by my best it seems to draw the exact amount of power as the ship is being hit with plus the shields reserves that is already charged then plus the extra power Destiny shield system cycles through various frequencies to match incoming energy based attack.

We do not even know if the planet is volcanically active at all. So no magma is not going to be present on all planets also it was a rouge planet. Just because our planet is still seismically active and contains molten material in its makeup does not mean all planets in the universe follow suit. Entire planets along with their cores become solid once they cool.

[Tetsujin]

In TDIC we are talking about an event that was meant to destroy 30% of the planet's surface with only a handful of powerful shots. You can't achieve the level of destruction claimed with the observed salvo without doing a lot more than simply kicking up dust- unless the destruction is through some means other than energy transfer.

Nice downplay of the events. You are trying to compare kicking up dust like the are walking through a dirt field. We see massive dust clouds traversing the entire surface of the planet at each impact zone within seconds. I would say that would obscure the view just a tab bit and also give you an idea of the force exerted.

Using plot device to dismiss evidence is simply a dodge. Fact is, the events of First Contact are not only damming, they are supported by both other visual evidence and dialogue, which ties together consistently.

No using a plot device when a plot device is the only logical explanation is anything but a dodge. If you do not accept the fact that a plot device is the only logical explanation in this instance it shows that you are unwilling to view the situation logically in a quest to prove your point. In this instance there is 0 question that they were plot driven explosion. We have seen hand phasers and anti personnel bombs make explosions like that in ST. EPS overloads make explosions like that. Artillery shells make explosions like that so you suggesting that those explosions are consistent with ships weapons fire is proving my point that taking any an all visuals at face value at all times is a highly flawed standpoint. Again since those explosions make sense and they are supposedly consistent, then we can hear in space, correct? That is part of every visual from TOS to ENT so we have consistency. So that means in the ST universe space is not a vacuum and possess enough medium for sound waves to propagate?

And yet the visuals for battles are consistent and we even have Sisko ordering the Defiant to close to 500 metres before firing in TDIC.

Hmm good point. We also see lots of evidence of ships firing from orbit. We have also established the range of ships particle weapons as hundreds of kilometers at minimum. So it must be that ships for some in universe reason that ships combat each other that closely. Or could it possibly be that in most Sci-fi shows everyone closes to visual range in ship-to-ship battles since two dots shooting bright beams at each other wouldn’t go over so will with the viewers. Even SG heavily suffers from this, we see Ha'taks firing from orbit yet they decide to always fire at about a single ship diameter apart. This is starting to get ridiculous, I believe you can't accept this since it would invalidate your standpoint and effectively cripple a large portion or your arguments.

I will again point out the numerous examples contradicting Silent Enemy and on top of that how having these uber powerful hand phasers would have been handy in episodes like The Siege of AR558.

Again this is getting tiresome. Do I again have to quote a producer saying they tone down the effects of hand phasers in firefights? Also do I have to point out that hand phasers have vaporized individuals and made large objects and stone walls explode? Again you have yet to come up with an event that contradicts “Silent Enemy”that doesn't scream plot event. Like potholes being made from a ship mounted canon in a situation that contains multiple main characters and on which the existence of ST as we know it hinges.




An artificial magnetosphere doesn't have any bearing on whether the star was especially energetic, as it will be temperature increases that boil away the oceans, regardless of a magnetic field. Therefore the star could not have possessed significant output.[/QUOTE]

Are you serious?! It has a bearing on the stars effect on the surface of the sphere, a HUGE bearing. So by that same flawed logic Earth magnetosphere has no bearing on how livable earth is right? I will try to state this in simplest terms. If you spend all your money having a house built, would you abandon the house because it was a little hot? As far as I am concerned I have squashed any evidence people have regarding liquid water existing on the inner surface of the sphere having a huge impact on the stars output. I have used hard logic and what you have said and keep saying in this instance has in no way refuted any of it. If you do have some hard logic concerning Relics I would very much like to hear it, but up to this point you have just used the evidence of people who ignored obvious facts to make their points. If you require it read my post again that had the information you are responding to again. Maybe then you will understand that estimating the output of a star based on an artificially created and controlled environment that was designed to maintain livability is loose guesswork at best.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I agree with everything Tetsujin has said here.

Seriously, for all of the holes and arguments that keep getting repeated (which have time and again been rebutted) there isn't a single piece of the kind of evidence for SG that Darth claims to believe in.
There isn't a single instance where Goauld Pulse Based energy weapons have duplicated something like the Enterprise D's tunneling through 1600 meters into the ground with a few seconds of fire, a perfect example that has been brought up above is the Goauld destroying the Tokra's tunnels, if such firepower was possible with those weapons then it would have happened then, it didn't.

No one has thus far brought up anything that can match the example from the episode Legacy or Silent Enemy, not from ship based weapons.
There's no direct reference to Goauld weapons being hundreds of megatons in power, no circumstance where they are that powerful and no piece of visual evidence.
All claims of Megaton or higher yields for Goauld energy weapons are entirely unsupported.

BTW I am starting to buy each series of ST, to rewatch all the episodes, pick up on any further bits of evidence that may shed further light on the capabilities of the show, I'll catalog, using my own experience in watching the shows again and when I get the time I'll repost in here.
I'll be back now and then, but my time's a bit more limited now, so I may not be able to post everyday or every week for that matter.

I've started with TNG, watched Encounter at Farpoint today, I'll be making my way through and will post as soon as I can with all of this in mind.
SG is much fresher in my head, so I can be objective about both shows.

Anyone, please feel free to bring up things that haven't been mentioned before about SG, if there's anything, but nothing comes to my mind.

[morrismike]

I agree with everything Tetsujin has said here.

Seriously, for all of the holes and arguments that keep getting repeated (which have time and again been rebutted) there isn't a single piece of the kind of evidence for SG that Darth claims to believe in.
There isn't a single instance where Goauld Pulse Based energy weapons have duplicated something like the Enterprise D's tunneling through 1600 meters into the ground with a few seconds of fire, a perfect example that has been brought up above is the Goauld destroying the Tokra's tunnels, if such firepower was possible with those weapons then it would have happened then, it didn't.

No one has thus far brought up anything that can match the example from the episode Legacy or Silent Enemy, not from ship based weapons.
There's no direct reference to Goauld weapons being hundreds of megatons in power, no circumstance where they are that powerful and no piece of visual evidence.
All claims of Megaton or higher yields for Goauld energy weapons are entirely unsupported.

BTW I am starting to buy each series of ST, to rewatch all the episodes, pick up on any further bits of evidence that may shed further light on the capabilities of the show, I'll catalog, using my own experience in watching the shows again and when I get the time I'll repost in here.
I'll be back now and then, but my time's a bit more limited now, so I may not be able to post everyday or every week for that matter.

I've started with TNG, watched Encounter at Farpoint today, I'll be making my way through and will post as soon as I can with all of this in mind.
SG is much fresher in my head, so I can be objective about both shows.

Anyone, please feel free to bring up things that haven't been mentioned before about SG, if there's anything, but nothing comes to my mind.

I seem to remember an episode with Kirk saying 6 photon torpedoes with max antimatter load would crack a planet.

[darth_timon]

I agree with everything Tetsujin has said here.

Seriously, for all of the holes and arguments that keep getting repeated (which have time and again been rebutted) there isn't a single piece of the kind of evidence for SG that Darth claims to believe in.
There isn't a single instance where Goauld Pulse Based energy weapons have duplicated something like the Enterprise D's tunneling through 1600 meters into the ground with a few seconds of fire, a perfect example that has been brought up above is the Goauld destroying the Tokra's tunnels, if such firepower was possible with those weapons then it would have happened then, it didn't.

I've provided plenty of evidence, it's just you and Tetsujin refute it along the line of artistic licence or hand wavium.

You have not explained the massive drop in power between ENT and TOS; how can a 1960s fighter with what would have been low megaton nuke threaten the Enterprise if the technology is meant to have improved? Judging from what I've learned so far about the episode in question, there were no problems with the shields. Likewise, if torpedoes really are multi-megaton, then the crew of the Enterprise should have killed by blast waves blowing through the flimsy doors within the ship. This obviously didn't happen.

No one has thus far brought up anything that can match the example from the episode Legacy or Silent Enemy, not from ship based weapons.
There's no direct reference to Goauld weapons being hundreds of megatons in power, no circumstance where they are that powerful and no piece of visual evidence.
All claims of Megaton or higher yields for Goauld energy weapons are entirely unsupported.

Except of course, for the Beachhead evidence, the 200MT figure from season 1, a damaged ship absorbing lots of energy from a big hot star, the damage done to Netu, Ba'al's depopulation of one of his systems whilst retreating, and the detonation of a power source in Enemies when a ship collides with a planet. Then of course, there's the general energetic properties of naquadah.