Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[Backwivthebaals]

"Not surprising since it does take the sun’s light about 8 minutes to reach earth.

It doesn’t seem all that out of the ordinary for a shock wave traveling at the speed of light to “appear” to be moving slowly towards the fleet."

okay yeah im new here so bear with me lol

the shockwave would have travelled at the speed of light
but immediately after the sun exploded the gravitaional forces in the whole solar system would have changed, therefore they should have noticed that the sun had gone supernova and been able to leave so, it does seem a little silly, the eight minute rule only applies to where the ships were in the system as they could have been 5 lm away or 20 lm for all we know.


"The Q are basically ascended beings but with less restrictions (they have some but it seems like they're free to do what they want as long as they don't blow up the universe) than the Ori or Ancients.

Riker (a human) was "ascended" (for a brief time) to the level of the Q and we know that a Q can be descended (happened a couple of times) to human levels."


i remember in the fourth horseman p1 Orlin said "nor is such an endeavour at that level necessarily the next best step to further enlightenment"

now i dont know about you but it seems to me that there are further levels to ascension and the ancients who are but a few thousand..maybe millions of years old are more than likely on the first rung to higher enlightenment.

The Q are billions of years old, Q said it himself in one episode..i think a Voyager one [tries to forget] so i think the Q would be at a point of owning the ancients, and as has been said many...MANY times the Q could easy just zap the ancients out of existence.

on a further note..to say that the Q could be killed by Q weapons..remember who made them..if the ancients ever came up against the Q continuum..they wouldnt know where to start.

and also i am more than sure that Starfleet of the 24th century is easily on a par with the Asgard, and the 29th century Starfleet cud easy woop the Asgard and the Ori..the only reason starfleets ships get batted about in battles is because the weapons in star trek are far more powerful.

rant over
Chris

[PG15]

An exploding sun wouldn't change the gravity since no mass/energy is lost.

(Right?)

[pliepl]

Surely not.

Because in "Bridge Commander" the O'Neill is superior to all other Stargate-Ships, except the Ori Cruiser, the "Asgard-Ship-taken-over-by-Replicators" and the undamaged Ancient Cruiser.

And there lies the problem. Whoever programmed the mod for the game probably didn’t consider realistically the offense/defense of the ships.

the shockwave would have travelled at the speed of light
but immediately after the sun exploded the gravitaional forces in the whole solar system would have changed, therefore they should have noticed that the sun had gone supernova and been able to leave so, it does seem a little silly, the eight minute rule only applies to where the ships were in the system as they could have been 5 lm away or 20 lm for all we know.

The 8 minutes was just an example of how slow light really is at great distances. The amount of time it took for the shock wave to reach Apophis’ fleet may be less or more (I really don’t know) depending on how far away the sun was from the fleet (I don’t know exactly how far so I couldn’t say). Lets not forget that Apophis’ fleet was a lot closer to the sun at the time of detonation than sg1’s hatak was. They were making their way (with Apophis’ ship futher away than the rest of his fleet) when the star exploded. It was a trap set by Sg1 so it’s not surprising that they were able to get away.

i remember in the fourth horseman p1 Orlin said "nor is such an endeavour at that level necessarily the next best step to further enlightenment"

now i dont know about you but it seems to me that there are further levels to ascension and the ancients who are but a few thousand..maybe millions of years old are more than likely on the first rung to higher enlightenment.

The Q are billions of years old, Q said it himself in one episode..i think a Voyager one [tries to forget] so i think the Q would be at a point of owning the ancients, and as has been said many...MANY times the Q could easy just zap the ancients out of existence.

The Q are a mystery. I don’t consider them ascended being (in the sense of the meaning of that word in the Gates universe). The ascended ancients as a whole still do not know everything. On one of the Voyager episodes, Q showed Capt. Janeway (and Tuvok I think) a representation of the Q continuum. Basically presenting them as knowing everything in the universe so the continuum is basically stagnate (with nothing they don’t already know). The ascended ancients or ascended Ori are not on the same level, even though they’ve ascended, they still have much to learn. The same could be true about the Q (or rather just some of the Q, we just don’t know). Riker certainly didn’t seem to be all knowing when he gained Q powers. It just seemed like all he got was Q powers with none of the knowledge. What we do know is the continuum, as a whole know everything.

and also i am more than sure that Starfleet of the 24th century is easily on a par with the Asgard, and the 29th century Starfleet cud easy woop the Asgard and the Ori..the only reason starfleets ships get batted about in battles is because the weapons in star trek are far more powerful.

Ya, this is why I have a problem with people here “thinking” that Star Trek ships are weak.

You’ll have people here state that phasers and torpedoes on Federation ships are “weak” weapons because their power output don’t convert and compare well to real life or Gates universe. Phasers and torpedoes were designed for space combat (weaken shields and penetrate hulls) and are equally as devastating on planetary bodies. Think of it this way… there have been many examples of the effects of those weapons on planetary bodies (planets, asteroids, moons, etc) throughout the many series. There have also been examples of Gates weaponry on planetary bodies as well (hataks firing on a planet, Ori firing on a planet, and nukes detonated on a plant). Nukes being the most effective (and only in an atmosphere), with the Ori main weapon being a runner up (effective everywhere).

The conclusion that can be reach from this is that either planets in the Trek universe are weaker than planets in the Gates universe or that power unit of measurements actually don’t convert well from one to the other. I’m more inclined to think it’s the latter.

[pliepl]

An exploding sun wouldn't change the gravity since no mass/energy is lost.

(Right?)

I really don’t know. I would think that gravity would be lower (after the shockwave had dissipated) since the sun is no longer there to provide gravitational pull as remnants of the sun are now being flung out into space.

[PG15]

The original poster said "immediately after the explosion", so I would think a majority of the star's mass, although free of the star, will still be close enough together to represent a point source of gravity.

[Backwivthebaals]

An exploding sun wouldn't change the gravity since no mass/energy is lost.

(Right?)

its wrong, the reason im saying that the gravitational forces would change immediately is because of einsteinian physics, space is like a rubber sheet, and everything in it creates an impact on space, all the planets, and ships in that system would have been in some kind of orbit around the sun. think of it like a rubber sheet with a cannonball on it and a load of peas, then take the cannon ball of and watch everything move. on those hat'ak they would have known, i dont care what anyone says.


i agree with u on the conversion rate theory pliepl. my addition to that theory is..no matter how much it may pain me, i believe the creators of the star trek series underestimated the viewers intelligence, and now with sg1 and atlantis we're seein how they should of done it.
heartbreaking stuff!

chris

[freetoken]

its wrong, the reason im saying that the gravitational forces would change immediately is because of einsteinian physics,[snip]chris

Nope, gravity waves travel at the speed of light. You are thinking of Newtonian physics, with instantaneous gravity.

Sorry, but the last thing the Stargate writers do (if they do it at all, which I doubt) is check the actual science in their stories. Thus, Stargate is really more a fantasy story, especially when you start throwing things in like acension.

[Backwivthebaals]

okay, your right! ive just checked...although there is some confusion about the speed of gravity..but all in all your more right than me

chris

[pliepl]

on those hat'ak they would have known, i dont care what anyone says.

I don’t think anyone would argue that they would have known that the sun went supernova. As far as being able to do anything about it fast enough, that’s another story. The shockwave was practically right on top of him (Apophis) before his crew reacted. The rest of his fleet (much closer to the sun than he was) wasn’t as fortunate.

i agree with u on the conversion rate theory pliepl. my addition to that theory is..no matter how much it may pain me, i believe the creators of the star trek series underestimated the viewers intelligence, and now with sg1 and atlantis we're seein how they should of done it.
heartbreaking stuff!

You have to remember also when Star Trek first came out, it was a different era then.

[PG15]

its wrong, the reason im saying that the gravitational forces would change immediately is because of einsteinian physics, space is like a rubber sheet, and everything in it creates an impact on space, all the planets, and ships in that system would have been in some kind of orbit around the sun. think of it like a rubber sheet with a cannonball on it and a load of peas, then take the cannon ball of and watch everything move. on those hat'ak they would have known, i dont care what anyone says.

I know about that. I'm just saying, by having the sun explode, you're not taking the cannonball off of the sheet, but merely replacing it with an exploding cannonball. The mass would still be the same, except it's more spread out.

[Backwivthebaals]

I know about that. I'm just saying, by having the sun explode, you're not taking the cannonball off of the sheet, but merely replacing it with an exploding cannonball. The mass would still be the same, except it's more spread out.

yep i agree, i was tired when i wrote it so yea..i think ur right there

chris

*has been told *

[Lord Shiva]

I know these are two different levels between shows but if they were to be combined and had a all out battle against...for example: U.S.S. Defiant or any of the Battle class starships (That I mind you, using Quantum torpedoes) against A Gou'uld mothership and also ships from Asgard, Wraith, Ori

Who would ultimately win in a skirmish battle?

The Ori would trounce the Federation. The Federation would trounce the rest of the Stargate universe.

[Col. Shadow Quinn]

Let's take into consideration the assets of both sides. Ascended beings and Q continuim aren't aloud because they both have godlike powers.

[pliepl]

The Ori would trounce the Federation. The Federation would trounce the rest of the Stargate universe.

I’m not so sure of that. Weaponry wise, the Ori isn’t any more as powerful as the Federation or any of the other common races they’ve gone up against (Klingon/Romulan/Dominion). The Ori only have an edge as far as shield technology (what they currently lack in shield tech can certainly be made up with armor tech). We know it takes a lot to destroy one of those things but they’re not invulnerable. The Federation has been fighting races with weapons as powerful as the Ori so they can last for sometime in a firefight (the warships and heavy ships not the weaker science or medical ships or most of the older explorer class ships).

One on one, the Ori would probably have the upper hand being able to last longer in a firefight (assuming though that we leave out the armor tech USS Voyager brought back to the Federation on their return to earth). I was kind of disappointed we didn’t see that tech in the Nemesis movie but I guess that would have been a totally different movie otherwise. A war between the Federation and the Ori would depend on the factors. To say that the Ori would trounce over the Federation (without even really considering all the details) is an oversimplification.

Lets not forget that these are humans of the 24th century (probably 25th by now) with the technological level of the Asgard in the Gates universe. They’re a lot more capable and ingenious than the humans of present day in the Gates universe. Engineers/Scientists like McKay and Carter are the exception in the Gates universe while it’s the norm in the Trek universe.

Let's take into consideration the assets of both sides. Ascended beings and Q continuim aren't aloud because they both have godlike powers.

That’s somewhat easier said than done considering the involvement of the Ori with lower life. The Ori ship and priors are a direct result of those involvements even though they only gave the followers the knowledge to build the technology; it is still given to them. A comparison would be like the Q giving the Federation the knowledge to build Q weapons (or something equivalent). We already know how devastating such a weapon can be.

[Col. Shadow Quinn]

I'm pretty sure the Ori have millions of ships in their home galaxy.