Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[darth_timon]

Porous because it was in the atmosphere? Really? In any other sci fi show or even within Stargate, have you ever heard of the atmosphere reacting with the shields and making them inefficient like that? I mean, that alone would indicate something is poor about the design of the shields.

Well, between Carter's statement, the known performance of shields from Enemies and the firepower from Beachhead, do you have a better idea?

Uhhh.... all you need to do is look closely at the indicators before and after the ramming. Shields remained at 70%. Not to mention IN NEARLY EVERY single instance of ramming, shield flares up against a physical object.

So the Scimitar's shields didn't change at all despite a starship plowing into the ship? Are you suggesting physical objects cannot be repelled at all?

And where exactly was it shown that the Scimitar's shields were still up? The lack of shield flare can simply mean the shields collapsed very quickly.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Yet the star in Relics was not nearly as powerful as the one in Enemies, even if we take the smallest possible blue giant, with a luminosity 9000 times that of our sun, and a radius 20 times greater, at a distance of 3 million KM the Hatak would have absorbed 1626MT over ten hours. If we went with a larger blue giant, such as Rigel, and a distance of 3 million KM, this increases to 2034MT over ten hours.

You're still assuming that the Enterprise was only withstanding basic solar rays.
As I've proven (and you have in no way refuted) in Relics the Enterprise was surrounded by plasma, which ups the amount of energy the shields are holding back.
I've actually proven that the Enterprise had to be struck directly by a flare.
We go from being able to clearly see the photosphere to being able to see nothing but thick plasma.
All of this happened at a distance much closer than the Ha'Tak in Enemies and that Ha'Tak did not have to deal with anything besides solar rays of it's star.
Whether it's a larger star or the smallest of blue giants the Ha'Tak has to be under less stress than the Enterprise was being put under.

Yet Goa'uld shields could also absorb gigaton-levels of energy from a star, and the shields weren't stated to be a 5th less powerful, but less than 40% effective. This could easily mean they are more porus in atmosphere, due to the properties of being in an atmosphere. Consequently, Ba'al would not have needed to use as much firepower to take out Anubis' ship (which had also suffered from an internal explosion earlier in the episode, causing unknown damage).

So Goauld shields are weakened by oxygen, I'd like to know what clearly stronger antimatter weapons, that produce exotic matter particles would do to such a shield.
If the shields are barely holding back building destruct level firepower that means that the strongest Goauld shields are even less weakened than I thought they were previously, so this means that the strongest Goauld shields on the show require even less firepower to take down under normal circumstances, interesting!

Interestingly, the numbers derived from Enemies tie in quite nicely with some of the firepower estimates from Beach Head.

No they don't.
A Mark 9 is in no way more than a 5 gigaton weapon, 303 standard nukes, railgun fire and a group of 3 Ha'Taks were meant to be 30% of the power to raise that shields surrounding the planet, so those 4 ships laid out 2143 megatons between them.

Oh I don't know... all you have to do is ram the Scimitar at clearly sublight speeds and her shields will fail easily.

Considering Ha'Taks haven't been stated to do sublight velocities of thousands of miles per second, all we see is pretty slow sub bullet level speeds from them, they stand zero chance and the Scimitar will tear them up with enough firepower to easily decimate a planet's crust on opening volley.

Do you know what a nuclear detonation looks like in space? It would most likely be a short but bright flash, but far from the typical explosion we normally see, due to the lack of atmosphere.

There was no flash, so no detonations from those two weapons, just a chemical explosion.
Even in space a flash would produce a blinding light, you wouldn't be able to see anything but that light for a portion of a second, this doesn't happen in Serpants Lair, so there can't have been any detonation.

The only time we see any flash in SG is when nukes impact solid matter, in ship combat this means No Man's Land, when the Hive was hit by a nuke.

Yet as I have mentioned before, they displayed none of the effects that should occur of the laws of thermodynamics are being obeyed. With any sufficiently high release of energy, whether nuclear, chemical or kinetic, you will get mushroom clouds and fireballs. This is a fact. If they are not occurring, the weapons are not directly delivering power to the target, and are instead using some sort of chain reaction. You cannot therefore use TDIC as a measure of firepower.

We see massive dust clouds spreading accross continental sized portions of a planet.
All of this takes place on the dark side of a planet and nobody refutes that the level of damage to the crust is happening.
Point here is we are seeing mushroom clouds in TDIC, they're massively thick ones too.

One major thing that hasn't been stated yet is that these weapons reduce the shields of a Galaxy class ship's shields, which sat being pounded by nothing less than thick plasma the corona of a highly active star and took it for 3 hours which started out at 23%.

Shields that hold back the increased physically damaging effects of the atmosphere of a star are brought down quickly by the kind of firepower that physically damaged and destroyed 30% of a planet's crust, regardless of what effects you think should be shown this is actually happening.
If a Galaxy class starship can hold back what has to be gigatons of energy per hour in Relics then this is far more energy than the calculations you've been giving and it's a fact that the Enterprise has to be holding back such levels of energy from the Star it's in orbit of.

Even the smallest of flares would be more than 238 gigatons or a Zetajoule, to give an idea of less than the smallest amount of energy the Enterprise D's shields are holding back.

This would be over a hundred times larger than the amount of energy the Ha'Tak's shields were supposedly holding back in Enemies.
That's also per flare and the flares could have been considerably larger than what I've pointed out above.

This is all assuming that the Enterprise was struck by only one flare, it could have easily been struck by multiple flares and this also doesn't take into account the excess extra plasma the weather of a far more active star than usual would be producing.

[darth_timon]

You're still assuming that the Enterprise was only withstanding basic solar rays.
As I've proven (and you have in no way refuted) in Relics the Enterprise was surrounded by plasma, which ups the amount of energy the shields are holding back.
I've actually proven that the Enterprise had to be struck directly by a flare.
We go from being able to clearly see the photosphere to being able to see nothing but thick plasma.
All of this happened at a distance much closer than the Ha'Tak in Enemies and that Ha'Tak did not have to deal with anything besides solar rays of it's star.
Whether it's a larger star or the smallest of blue giants the Ha'Tak has to be under less stress than the Enterprise was being put under.

You haven't proven direct impacts from flares. The evidence for this is ambiguous.

Furthermore, you have not disproven that the Daedalus took an incredible amount of energy from a CME (clearly stated to dwarf what our own sun has produced). Your only counter so far has been that it didn't look like a CME, so we shouldn't accept it, but the attack in TDIC looks NOTHING like such an attack should, yet we should accept it at face value!

So Goauld shields are weakened by oxygen, I'd like to know what clearly stronger antimatter weapons, that produce exotic matter particles would do to such a shield.
If the shields are not holding back building destruct level firepower that means that the strongest Goauld shields are even less weakened than I thought they were previously, so this means that the strongest Goauld shields on the show require even less firepower to take down under normal circumstances, interesting!

Yet we KNOW they can absorb hundreds of megatons from a star, so although atmosphere may represent a problem for Goauld shields, this doesn't mean torpedoes are going to cause problems.

It's also an assumption on your part that the make up of the atmosphere is the cause the problems. It might be to do with atmospheric pressure.

Finally, since three 600GW bursts of particle energy can fell a Galaxy's shields and knock her weapons off line, it seems Federation ships have a lot to worry about as well.

No they don't.
A Mark 9 is in no way more than a 5 gigaton weapon, 303 standard nukes, railgun fire and a group of 3 Ha'Taks were meant to be 30% of the power to raise that shields surrounding the planet, so those 4 ships laid out 2143 megatons between them.

There is NO way the Mark 9 is that weak, and you have never shown anything close to satisfactory evidence to support this idea. If the fireball radius is 100km (which the visuals appear to show) the minimum firepower of the nuke is 812GT.

Considering Ha'Taks haven't been stated to do thousands of miles per second, all we see is pretty slow sub bullet level speeds from them, they stand zero chance and the Scimitar will tear them up with enough firepower to easily decimate a planet's crust on opening volley.

Given the short distance between the Enterprise and the Scimitar, the fact that the Enterprise starts to move slowly, and the fact that Shinzon had time to gawp at the viewscreen AND order evasive action, clearly the collision is not high speed.

There was no flash, so no detonations from those two weapons.

Ok, there wasn't an impressive flash. This doesn't invalidate Enemies though.

We see massive dust clouds spreading accross continental sized portions of a planet.
All of this takes place on the dark side of a planet and nobody refutes that the level of damage to the crust is happening.
Point here is we are seeing mushroom clouds in TDIC, they're massively thick ones too.

There is no way the fancy shockwaves are huge dust clouds and there is NOTHING that resembles mushroom clouds. There are no fireballs, which are synonymous with mushroom clouds. There is NO indication that this feat is the result of firepower.

One major thing that hasn't been stated yet is that these weapons reduce the shields of a Galaxy class ship's shields, which sat being pounded by nothing less than thick plasma the corona of a highly active star and took it for 3 hours which started out at 23%.

Since when did it become thick plasma? And as before, if they can't withstand slow collisions or 600GW weapons, it would be foolish to assume they actually absorbed significant energy from flares. It would contradict nearly all the other evidence.

Shields that hold back the increased physically damaging effects of the atmosphere of a star are brought down quickly by the kind of firepower that physically damaged and destroyed 30% of a planet's crust, regardless of what effects you think should be shown this is actually happening.
If a Galaxy class starship can hold back what has to be gigatons of energy per hour in Relics then this is far more energy than the calculations you've been giving and it's a fact that the Enterprise has to be holding back such levels of energy from the Star it's in orbit of.

You can't keep insisting TDIC is pure firepower when the visuals clearly don't back this up.

If it were due to firepower we'd see fireballs and ejecta, and mushroom clouds. We see none of these. We'd see glowing craters on the surface where material has been superheated. We don't see this either.

With Relics, whilst this MAY show part of a flare brushing the ship, this is still ambiguous. It would also stand in direct opposition to many examples that support much lower shield and weapon strength.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

You haven't proven direct impacts from flares. The evidence for this is ambiguous.

I have, the evidence is in no way ambiguous, the corona starts out clear, a large flare forms. the Enterprise is moving towards said flare, then we see nothing but thick plasma.

Furthermore, you have not disproven that the Daedalus took an incredible amount of energy from a CME (clearly stated to dwarf what our own sun has produced). Your only counter so far has been that it didn't look like a CME, so we shouldn't accept it,

The fact here is that the thing striking the Daedalus's shields isn't large anough to even ingulf the ship, it strikes a portion of the ship's shield at the narrowest point of the shield.
Basically my counters to the argument are that the flare's tiny, that the ship doesn't absorb much more than a tiny fraction of the total flare's energy and the ship is doing so at a massive distance from the star.
The very visuals that you always hold so dear prove that the supposed CME is nothing more than a flare shot out of the star.

but the attack in TDIC looks NOTHING like such an attack should, yet we should accept it at face value!

The attack in TDIC creates massive dust clouds that spread accross continental sized portions of a planet, this clearly proves massive amounts of materials being changed from solid to particle sized.

Yet we KNOW they can absorb hundreds of megatons from a star, so although atmosphere may represent a problem for Goauld shields, this doesn't mean torpedoes are going to cause problems.

The strongest of Goauld shields get bought down and destroyed by shots only strong enough to destroy a small apartment block, the fact that this is the case even though the shields are still apparently 40% effective is clear proof that a weapon or weapons that far exceed this in strength will have no problem defeating such a shield and hull of a ship that's still harmed by such weak firepower.

It's also an assumption on your part that the make up of the atmosphere is the cause the problems. It might be to do with atmospheric pressure.

My body can deal with the atmospheric pressures of a similar planet, I don't get crushed by such things, yet you're now trying to seriously argue that such a thing is affecting the strength or whatever of a shield that can according to you hold back megatons to even high gigatons worth of firepower.
The fact that such a shield being on a planet can be weakened by 60% and still get destroyed within a few minutes of being hummered by pulses that aren't even worth a kiloton a piece is proof enough that they couldn't handle even a single sixty odd megaton weapon or a less powerful phaser beam that can burrow down over a kilometer deep into a planet or a less powerful less advanced weapon that can reduce a mountain to dust.

Finally, since three 600GW bursts of particle energy can fell a Galaxy's shields and knock her weapons off line, it seems Federation ships have a lot to worry about as well.

As usual you use circumstantial evidence where it suits you, but ignore it when it doesn't.
The alien in that episode could wipe away trillions of Husnock from light years away with a single thought, he could clearly bring down the shields of a ship with a thought or make a weapon that can seemingly bring them down at any time of his choosing.

There is NO way the Mark 9 is that weak, and you have never shown anything close to satisfactory evidence to support this idea. If the fireball radius is 100km (which the visuals appear to show) the minimum firepower of the nuke is 812GT.

I have shown this numerous times within this thread.
Based off of figures for real detonated nuclear devices, like the Tsar Bomb and the vaporization radius of that weapon, scaling to the area Cam stated would be vaporized by the Mark 9.
The minimum firepower is not 812gt, it's actually lower than that and to suit the drama of the situation it would make far more sense for Carter to say "close to a teraton level explosion" when she states the weapons yield but she doesn't.
If we go off of what Cam says about the Mark 9 being able to vaporize everything within 100 miles it makes the weapon definitely no more than 5 gigatons, actually 5 GTs would be generous.

A small portion of a few gigatons per blast would actually fit with what we see of the Ha'Taks firepower in Homecoming and other similar episodes rather than your overblown 812 gigaton figure, 812 gigatons being 70% of the power supply for the Ori shields and that the combined firepower of those ships is 348 gigatons as a minimum just doesn't work.
How could the Goauld field such yields in their pulses when there ships don't fire even low megaton level blasts against Anubis's shields in Homecoming?
The continued argument that Beachhead must mean the Goauld are firing hundreds of megatons or even low gigatons per pulse just doesn't work, if this was the case then these shields wouldn't be lasting for minutes if a ship can only hold back a little over 2 gigatons in Enemies.
You can't tell me they cared about collatoral damage in Homecoming when the shields still come down off of such low power, the shields were still 40% effective and they were solid when the attack started.

Given the short distance between the Enterprise and the Scimitar, the fact that the Enterprise starts to move slowly, and the fact that Shinzon had time to gawp at the viewscreen AND order evasive action, clearly the collision is not high speed.

It's stated to be full impulse, this would be a high fraction of relativistic speed or several thousand miles per second.
This isn't even from a piece of diologue, it's actually an order Picard gives Diana Troi through his console to the helm.

Ok, there wasn't an impressive flash. This doesn't invalidate Enemies though.

Enemies proves maybe kilotons per second, but as I said before this would be a high figure for what the shields can take and it depends on exactly how big the star was and the distance of the ship, two points we don't have exact figures for.

There is no way the fancy shockwaves are huge dust clouds and there is NOTHING that resembles mushroom clouds. There are no fireballs, which are synonymous with mushroom clouds. There is NO indication that this feat is the result of firepower.

Mushroom clouds push the dust up above any detonation point of the weapons, this all still takes place on the dark side of the planet.
There's also the fact that nobody refutes the level of damage outright stated to be done to the planet's crust.

Since when did it become thick plasma? And as before, if they can't withstand slow collisions or 600GW weapons, it would be foolish to assume they actually absorbed significant energy from flares. It would contradict nearly all the other evidence.

In one scene the whole corona is clearly visible, in another later scene nothing but plasma can be scene.
As has been pointed out numerous times the collisons aren't slow, they're relitivistic speed collisions and the 600GW weapon was from a highly advanced being that could wipe away trillions of lifeforms with a single thought, from a race of highly advanced aliens with advanced technology, who inhabited worlds light years away and you want to argue that the fact that this alien could do this means nothing.

You can't keep insisting TDIC is pure firepower when the visuals clearly don't back this up.
If it were due to firepower we'd see fireballs and ejecta, and mushroom clouds. We see none of these. We'd see glowing craters on the surface where material has been superheated. We don't see this either.

Dust clouds cover everything below, if volleys of weapons are turning 30% of a planet's crust into dust then the clouds are going to be thick and this is what we see, it's all we see, the dust clouds cover continental sized portions of a planet in seconds.
You're obviously ignoring the facts and don't like what the truth shows.

With Relics, whilst this MAY show part of a flare brushing the ship, this is still ambiguous. It would also stand in direct opposition to many examples that support much lower shield and weapon strength.

The evidence is massive now, as Ouroboros pointed out the Enterprise from the original series had the firepower to depopulate a planet.
A fleet of 10 ships in The Die Is Cast have the firepower to destroy 30% of a planet's crust with their opening volley.
Canon shows that Voyager could destroy a small planet with a type 6 photon with a 200 isoton yield, tweaked to become a gravametric charge.
Smaller torpedoes from Voyager could destroy a city in seconds with a 25 isoton yield.
Even a small flare would have to be in excess of 240 gigatons and the Enterprise in Relics is sitting being struck by at least one of the things, possibly more, plus whatever extra plasma is being thrown around the shields.
The NX-01 destroyed a mountain with two overloaded beams from it's phase cannons.
In Encounter At Farpoint the Enterprise produced massive fireballs with a series of Photons that were detonated from several light seconds away from the ship.
In Legacy the Enterprise creates a tunnel over a kilometer deep with a few seconds of fire.
All of those ships are less advanced than the Enterprise E and the Scimitar.

Each major race from the Alpha, Beta and Gamma quadrant has fleets numbering in the thousands to tens of thousands, the Borg supposedly has millions.

Species 8472 can destroy a planet with a single energy blast from 9 combined bioships

The strongest event we see a Ha'Tak take is the blue giant, with the stress being spread over ten hours, at most this would add up to what 2 odd gigatons.
There's an ambiguous statement about a Ha'Tak firing 200 megaton blasts, considering this is never stated to come from their energy weapons and Naquadah is the only thing to be capable of such explosive power in a Goauld's arsenal it must have been from an explosive and not an energy weapon.
The fleet that turned Ne'Tu into the hell it was, wasn't stated to be done with energy weapons, against no evidence supports energy weapons being capable of this.

Anubis's shields at 40% effectivenes could be brought down by enough firepower to destroy nothing more than a small apartment block per shot or clear pulse weapon fire from Ha'Taks.

[McAvoy]

Well, between Carter's statement, the known performance of shields from Enemies and the firepower from Beachhead, do you have a better idea?



So the Scimitar's shields didn't change at all despite a starship plowing into the ship? Are you suggesting physical objects cannot be repelled at all?

And where exactly was it shown that the Scimitar's shields were still up? The lack of shield flare can simply mean the shields collapsed very quickly.

Nope just that visuals indicate three things:

1. No shield flare.

2. Scimitar's shield remained at 70% even after being siginificantly damaged by the impact. This is shown on the console.

3. No torpedos, but even concentrated phaser strikes wouldn't do anything.

Connect the dots, and it's possible that the forward shields were either gone or severely weakened. Throughout the battle there have been some powerful strikes in Scimitar's forward shield. As far as the comment that E-E using phasers to damage the Scimitar, it is possible that they were talking about away of disabling or destroying the Scimitar before the Scimitar could strike back.

[Xzzzx]

Well, To be honest Star-gate Ship's all have far superior hyper-drives and warp capabilities. Look at the show Voyager, they were stranded 70,000 light years from home, not in another Galaxy, but in the Delta Quadrant (I Believe it was delta). That being said Voyager was a top of the line ship at the time, it was capable of warp 9.91 i believe and even at that speed it would have taken them close to seventy years to return home. Now factor in Star-Gate ships. The human/Asgard combination ships, "The Deadilius" Is Capable of traveling to and from the Milky Way to the Pegasus Galaxy in a total travel time of 36 days. I am citing the second episode of Stargate: Atlantis where Dr. Weir state's that a travel time of 18 days from Earth to Atlantis is a bit of an inconvenience, when compared to simply walking through a Stargate to reach said destination. That being said the shear speed capabilities of Star-Gate vessel's alone completely outmatch anything Star Trek has to offer. Now in term's of a skirmish, in much of Star-Trek battles are not done at ion speed, often space battles are played out at warp speeds. Now facing star-gate ship's that can clearly outmaneuver anything the federation, romulans, klingons, or even the borg have (with transwarp) I don't see how a Star-Trek Vessel could win, with few exceptions. First, Star-Trek vessel's would destroy, and I mean utterly destroy the first human/asgard venture ships like the Prometheus and the Deadilius prior to the Asgard plasma weapon and shield upgrades at the end of season 10 in SG-1. Trek ships with phasers/ and photon torpedoes; (energy weapons) would obliterate and vessel whose primary ordinance are rail gun's, and missles. Trek's phasers could simply lock on to any of the ordinance from one of these early Star-Gate ship's and destroy the missiles before they ever have a chance into nearing contact with the Trek vessel. However; once the Plasma cannon and asgard shields were added to the Prometheus and Deadilus; this gives the Stargate ships a clear advantage. And in my opinion with these installations it wouldn't even be a fight. Now that being said; I believe that Gho'uald, Asgard, Ori, Lantean, and even Wraith Hive Ship's would all have similar victorious results against anything the federation has to throw against them. Primarily because if you remember, the Federation; and her ship's are science vessel's, not military vessels. I believe Star-gate ship's from all race's would out perform and destroy anything in the Star Trek universe, with the exception of the Q, obviously. However I do believe battles and skirmishes between the Borg, and that biological race that rapes the Borg in "Voyager", with Star-Gate vessels would be far more interesting. My opinion still lean's towards the Star-gate vessels. Sorry Trek.

Sincerely, Michael Kaufman. "Sci-Fi is our window into what is to come." (My Belief)

side-note:
Fan of Both Trek/Stargate/Farscape/Firefly (Any and all Sci-fi). I have seen every episode of STO, TNG, DS9, Voyager, sad to say that I just couldn't stomach Star Trek enterprise. Seen every episode of SG-1, Atlantis, and Universe (similar experience with Universe as with Enterprise, thought both series tried to hard, and came up short.) Seen all the film's too. Love em all, every episode even the boring Time paradox episodes.

[darth_timon]

I have, the evidence is in no way ambiguous, the corona starts out clear, a large flare forms. the Enterprise is moving towards said flare, then we see nothing but thick plasma.

The flare that appears on the main viewer when the Enterprise first enters orbit would be far too far away to have hit the ship, and the second visual simply shows the shields glowing, but given their other performances (such as not being able to handle 600GW particle bursts, or not being able to destroy an ill-consolidated partially hollow asteroid, or not being able to withstand slow collisions), it seems highly unlikely they would be able to withstand flares.

The fact here is that the thing striking the Daedalus's shields isn't large anough to even ingulf the ship, it strikes a portion of the ship's shield at the narrowest point of the shield.
Basically my counters to the argument are that the flare's tiny, that the ship doesn't absorb much more than a tiny fraction of the total flare's energy and the ship is doing so at a massive distance from the star.
The very visuals that you always hold so dear prove that the supposed CME is nothing more than a flare shot out of the star.

The very dialogue you hold dear contradicts you (especially as you keep referring to it as a flare as well, and flares are not as powerful as CMEs).

Mckay said the CME would fan out as it approached the planet. For something to 'fan out' it must therefore start out compacted, which it clearly was. It was also said to carry enough energy (even after fanning out) to cause severe ecological disruption to the planet, even leading to mass extinctions. For it to do this, it would have to be more powerful than any CME we have observed our own sun produce.

The attack in TDIC creates massive dust clouds that spread accross continental sized portions of a planet, this clearly proves massive amounts of materials being changed from solid to particle sized.

Or they could simply be fancy shockwaves that are a byproduct of the chain reaction weapons used. The complete absence of fireballs and mushroom clouds does not support huge energy releases, no matter what you might insist.

To quote from Wikipedia:

Mushroom clouds form as a result of the sudden formation of a large mass of hot, low-density gases near the ground creating a Rayleigh–Taylor instability. The mass of gas rises rapidly, resulting in turbulent vortices curling downward around its edges, forming a vortex ring and drawing up a column of additional smoke and debris in the center to form its "stem". The mass of gas eventually reaches an altitude where it is no longer of lower density than the surrounding air and disperses, the debris drawn upward from the ground scattering and drifting back down

The shockwaves that you insist are dust clouds should be swept upwards, as a result of the huge releases of energy you insist are happening. This is clearly not the case. Whatever they are, they sweep outwards.

The strongest of Goauld shields get bought down and destroyed by shots only strong enough to destroy a small apartment block, the fact that this is the case even though the shields are still apparently 40% effective is clear proof that a weapon or weapons that far exceed this in strength will have no problem defeating such a shield and hull of a ship that's still harmed by such weak firepower.

Yet even your own estimates from the Mark 9 warhead suggest at least megaton-level firepower for Hataks, which would naturally translate into megaton-level shields. Likewise with Enemies. Clearly there is therefore something else at work here (as mentioned before, shields which are only 40% effective might be more porus to incoming energy, letting it through the shield with far less resistance, thus not requiring firepower to do the job. After all, Ba'al had agreed to leave the Kwelonans alone).

[quoteMy body can deal with the atmospheric pressures of a similar planet, I don't get crushed by such things, yet you're now trying to seriously argue that such a thing is affecting the strength or whatever of a shield that can according to you hold back megatons to even high gigatons worth of firepower.
The fact that such a shield being on a planet can be weakened by 60% and still get destroyed within a few minutes of being hummered by pulses that aren't even worth a kiloton a piece is proof enough that they couldn't handle even a single sixty odd megaton weapon or a less powerful phaser beam that can burrow down over a kilometer deep into a planet or a less powerful less advanced weapon that can reduce a mountain to dust.[/quote]

Yet they can sit by a blue giant star for ten hours... so clearly there is something about being in atmosphere which changes the properties of Goa'uld shields. It causes an anomaly.

As usual you use circumstantial evidence where it suits you, but ignore it when it doesn't.
The alien in that episode could wipe away trillions of Husnock from light years away with a single thought, he could clearly bring down the shields of a ship with a thought or make a weapon that can seemingly bring them down at any time of his choosing.

It's simply more of the dialogue you insist is so important- no one was surprised that 600GW could be so effective, no one said 'oh, that's impossible, our shields should withstand far more'. The ship's instruments measured the effects in real scientific terms, which means the ship's instruments could quantify them.

I have shown this numerous times within this thread.
Based off of figures for real detonated nuclear devices, like the Tsar Bomb and the vaporization radius of that weapon, scaling to the area Cam stated would be vaporized by the Mark 9.
The minimum firepower is not 812gt, it's actually lower than that and to suit the drama of the situation it would make far more sense for Carter to say "close to a teraton level explosion" when she states the weapons yield but she doesn't.
If we go off of what Cam says about the Mark 9 being able to vaporize everything within 100 miles it makes the weapon definitely no more than 5 gigatons, actually 5 GTs would be generous.

Given that teraton is not a widespread or well-known term and gigaton is more so, it would still make more sense to use gigaton.

And you will not get a fireball with a radius of 100KM with anything less than 812GT.

There is a lot of discussion on this already: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/v...&t=262&start=0

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtop...75629&start=25

Hmmm... the relevant threads on spacebattles are down- the entire forum is down. They are moving house!

A small portion of a few gigatons per blast would actually fit with what we see of the Ha'Taks firepower in Homecoming and other similar episodes rather than your overblown 812 gigaton figure, 812 gigatons being 70% of the power supply for the Ori shields and that the combined firepower of those ships is 348 gigatons as a minimum just doesn't work.
How could the Goauld field such yields in their pulses when there ships don't fire even low megaton level blasts against Anubis's shields in Homecoming?
The continued argument that Beachhead must mean the Goauld are firing hundreds of megatons or even low gigatons per pulse just doesn't work, if this was the case then these shields wouldn't be lasting for minutes if a ship can only hold back a little over 2 gigatons in Enemies.
You can't tell me they cared about collatoral damage in Homecoming when the shields still come down off of such low power, the shields were still 40% effective and they were solid when the attack started.

Actually, I believe I worked out a while back in this thread that the firepower per shot would be something like 100MT, or 97MT, or some such- this is consistent with Enemies, and matches observations of Hataks needing about a dozen or so shots to take out the shields of another Hatak.

It's stated to be full impulse, this would be a high fraction of relativistic speed or several thousand miles per second.
This isn't even from a piece of diologue, it's actually an order Picard gives Diana Troi through his console to the helm.

Yet these speeds are never seen. Not once. Plus, to put a further nail in, when Picard and co are looking at the Scimitar (which has to come to a stop in front of the Enterprise), they are not looking through a viewscreen giving them a magnified image- they looking out of a hole in the front of the bridge! So clearly, there is no great distance between the two ships, yet Shinzon still has time to both gawp and order evasive action.

[darth_timon]

Enemies proves maybe kilotons per second, but as I said before this would be a high figure for what the shields can take and it depends on exactly how big the star was and the distance of the ship, two points we don't have exact figures for.

I can use even bigger stars to inflate the figures. Alnitak is used for a low-end estimate (it has a radius 20 times that of our sun) and I used the lowest known luminosity of a blue giant (9000 times that of our sun, although Alnitak itself is thought to be 100,000 times more luminous). I used a distance of 3 million KM from the star.

If I used Rigel, which is 117,000 times more luminous than our sun, and 74 times the radius, and the same distance from the star, we arrive at 203.4MT per hour. Even at 10 million KM from Rigel, a ship would still absorb 159.9MT an hour.

Mushroom clouds push the dust up above any detonation point of the weapons, this all still takes place on the dark side of the planet.

Mushrooms clouds do indeed push material upwards, and would be accompanied by fireballs as much amounts of energy are released. Dark side or not, we would see something. We don't.

Look, the level of energy in the universe is constant. It cannot be destroyed or created. If you put X amount of energy into a system, you get X out of the system. Ergo, if you put X amount of microwave energy into your food in a microwave, the food will radiate it in the form of heat energy, until it cools completely, but it will radiate the same amount.

If you put into a planet enough energy to destroy a large portion of the crust, that energy will be released in the form of heat, which will in turn cause fireballs, the very visible disruption of the crust (portions of it glowing where it has been superheated by huge energies), and mushroom clouds. None of this happens in TDIC, ergo, direct application of energy is not occurring.

As has been pointed out numerous times the collisons aren't slow, they're relitivistic speed collisions and the 600GW weapon was from a highly advanced being that could wipe away trillions of lifeforms with a single thought, from a race of highly advanced aliens with advanced technology, who inhabited worlds light years away and you want to argue that the fact that this alien could do this means nothing.

Collisions are clearly slow. I have explained how Picard and co could see the Scimitar from the gaping hole where the viewer used to be, which shouldn't be possible if took several seconds to reach it at relativistic speeds. You can also choose to ignore clear dialogue where measurements are given in real scientific terms, where no one is surprised at all that 600GW is a problem, but that won't make the example go away.

Dust clouds cover everything below, if volleys of weapons are turning 30% of a planet's crust into dust then the clouds are going to be thick and this is what we see, it's all we see, the dust clouds cover continental sized portions of a planet in seconds.
You're obviously ignoring the facts and don't like what the truth shows.

Rubbish. You're ignoring real science and the laws of thermodynamics to reach your conclusions.

The evidence is massive now, as Ouroboros pointed out the Enterprise from the original series had the firepower to depopulate a planet.

Never demonstrated. Plus, the Enterprise-A survived a torpedo detonating inside her primary hull, despite the fact that Worf was able to knock down doors using his head on a more advance ship! A multi-megaton detonation inside her hull should have vaporised Kirk and co!

Canon shows that Voyager could destroy a small planet with a type 6 photon with a 200 isoton yield, tweaked to become a gravametric charge.

Where exactly was this shown?

Smaller torpedoes from Voyager could destroy a city in seconds with a 25 isoton yield.

Ever demonstrated?

Even a small flare would have to be in excess of 240 gigatons and the Enterprise in Relics is sitting being struck by at least one of the things, possibly more, plus whatever extra plasma is being thrown around the shields.

There is no direct evidence the Enterprise was hit by even ONE flare.

The NX-01 destroyed a mountain with two overloaded beams from it's phase cannons.

Key word, overloaded.

In Encounter At Farpoint the Enterprise produced massive fireballs with a series of Photons that were detonated from several light seconds away from the ship.

They produced a big fireball in Skin of Evil too, and left behind untouched earth when the fireball dissipated.

In Legacy the Enterprise creates a tunnel over a kilometer deep with a few seconds of fire.

And people could walk about in the tunnel when by rights, they should have instantly died from the heat present in the tunnel. Further evidence of a chain reaction mechanism.

The strongest event we see a Ha'Tak take is the blue giant, with the stress being spread over ten hours, at most this would add up to what 2 odd gigatons.
There's an ambiguous statement about a Ha'Tak firing 200 megaton blasts, considering this is never stated to come from their energy weapons and Naquadah is the only thing to be capable of such explosive power in a Goauld's arsenal it must have been from an explosive and not an energy weapon.
The fleet that turned Ne'Tu into the hell it was, wasn't stated to be done with energy weapons, against no evidence supports energy weapons being capable of this.

Since there's no evidence to suggest Sokar's fleet had any other types of weapon available, and there was a specific reference to bombardment. Unless you can prove that Hataks use any weapons other than cannons, your point is moot.

Anubis's shields at 40% effectivenes could be brought down by enough firepower to destroy nothing more than a small apartment block per shot or clear pulse weapon fire from Ha'Taks.

Which is no different to the Breens utterly ineffective efforts against Starfleet Command, for which you argue there must be extenuating circumstances, yet you won't accept any such notion with Homecoming, despite the lack of necessity for using full power shots, which I have already explained.

[darth_timon]

Nope just that visuals indicate three things:

1. No shield flare.

2. Scimitar's shield remained at 70% even after being siginificantly damaged by the impact. This is shown on the console.

3. No torpedos, but even concentrated phaser strikes wouldn't do anything.

Connect the dots, and it's possible that the forward shields were either gone or severely weakened. Throughout the battle there have been some powerful strikes in Scimitar's forward shield. As far as the comment that E-E using phasers to damage the Scimitar, it is possible that they were talking about away of disabling or destroying the Scimitar before the Scimitar could strike back.

Where is the proof that the shields remained at 70% even after the ship got rammed? Where did we see the Scimitar's forward shields take any more of a pounding than any other shield, and why didn't anyone on the Enterprise mention that the Scimitar's forward shields were down?

[McAvoy]

Where is the proof that the shields remained at 70% even after the ship got rammed? Where did we see the Scimitar's forward shields take any more of a pounding than any other shield, and why didn't anyone on the Enterprise mention that the Scimitar's forward shields were down?

Before the ramming there is a console behind Geordi that shows the shield status of the Scimitar. There are two distinct shields in the status report. Also in the front there is a indicator in the front that is red and few frames after that it turns green. I have no clue what that could mean so i am not going to speculate. About above all that is a shield status 'bar' that maintains at 70% before and after the ramming.

1. The 70% shield indicator could indicate that the secondary shields kicked in. Just odd that the secondary shields can bring shields back up to 70% which means secondary shields are as powerful the main ones.

2. No shields in the front and the ramming didn't do anything to the rest of the shield's integrity. Phasers were down to 4% by this point, wouldn't do alot of damage anyway. The Scimitar did take a pounding in the front before the ramming.

3. E-E was hit by a large piece of Romulan ship in the battle and showed a shield flare when hit. But no shield flare when the E-E rammed the Scimitar. The piece that hit the E-E is granted was smaller than the E-E but it did appear to have a greater velocity than the E-E ramming the Scimitar.

4. One theory also could mean that the original 70% comment meant 70% left on the secondary shields and the main shields were down. 4% phaser power still wouldn't do anything, but maybe with secondary shields and whatever damage the Scimitar may have sustained could have allowed the E-E to pierce the shields. But again, doesn't explain the 70% indicator after the ramming and it would be a stretch.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Well, To be honest Star-gate Ship's all have far superior hyper-drives and warp capabilities. Look at the show Voyager, they were stranded 70,000 light years from home, not in another Galaxy, but in the Delta Quadrant (I Believe it was delta). That being said Voyager was a top of the line ship at the time, it was capable of warp 9.91 i believe and even at that speed it would have taken them close to seventy years to return home. Now factor in Star-Gate ships. The human/Asgard combination ships, "The Deadilius" Is Capable of traveling to and from the Milky Way to the Pegasus Galaxy in a total travel time of 36 days. I am citing the second episode of Stargate: Atlantis where Dr. Weir state's that a travel time of 18 days from Earth to Atlantis is a bit of an inconvenience, when compared to simply walking through a Stargate to reach said destination. That being said the shear speed capabilities of Star-Gate vessel's alone completely outmatch anything Star Trek has to offer. Now in term's of a skirmish, in much of Star-Trek battles are not done at ion speed, often space battles are played out at warp speeds. Now facing star-gate ship's that can clearly outmaneuver anything the federation, romulans, klingons, or even the borg have (with transwarp) I don't see how a Star-Trek Vessel could win, with few exceptions. First, Star-Trek vessel's would destroy, and I mean utterly destroy the first human/asgard venture ships like the Prometheus and the Deadilius prior to the Asgard plasma weapon and shield upgrades at the end of season 10 in SG-1. Trek ships with phasers/ and photon torpedoes; (energy weapons) would obliterate and vessel whose primary ordinance are rail gun's, and missles. Trek's phasers could simply lock on to any of the ordinance from one of these early Star-Gate ship's and destroy the missiles before they ever have a chance into nearing contact with the Trek vessel. However; once the Plasma cannon and asgard shields were added to the Prometheus and Deadilus; this gives the Stargate ships a clear advantage. And in my opinion with these installations it wouldn't even be a fight. Now that being said; I believe that Gho'uald, Asgard, Ori, Lantean, and even Wraith Hive Ship's would all have similar victorious results against anything the federation has to throw against them. Primarily because if you remember, the Federation; and her ship's are science vessel's, not military vessels. I believe Star-gate ship's from all race's would out perform and destroy anything in the Star Trek universe, with the exception of the Q, obviously. However I do believe battles and skirmishes between the Borg, and that biological race that rapes the Borg in "Voyager", with Star-Gate vessels would be far more interesting. My opinion still lean's towards the Star-gate vessels. Sorry Trek.

Sincerely, Michael Kaufman. "Sci-Fi is our window into what is to come." (My Belief)

side-note:
Fan of Both Trek/Stargate/Farscape/Firefly (Any and all Sci-fi). I have seen every episode of STO, TNG, DS9, Voyager, sad to say that I just couldn't stomach Star Trek enterprise. Seen every episode of SG-1, Atlantis, and Universe (similar experience with Universe as with Enterprise, thought both series tried to hard, and came up short.) Seen all the film's too. Love em all, every episode even the boring Time paradox episodes.

The speed argument gets you no where in this discussion.
A small group of Humans travel out into the galaxy, using stargates, with no previous knowledge of FTL technology and their own level of physics, within 6 years of exploring and limited experience they develop their own functioning Hyperdrive engines.
If it's that easy for a group with less working knowledge of the universe then a group like the Federation or even Humans from Zefram Cochrane's time will find it infinitely easier to make their own working Hyperdrive technology.

There's more than enough evidence proving Trek's superiority over Stargate when it comes to both firepower, by extension defences and sheer numbers.

Pretty much any ST power of major size would own any race in Stargate given the evidence shown within this thread.
You can believe whatever you like, but canon of trek compared directly to the canon of stargate shows that the powers of trek would easily cream stargate's.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The flare that appears on the main viewer when the Enterprise first enters orbit would be far too far away to have hit the ship, and the second visual simply shows the shields glowing,

That flare is directly in the path of the Enterprise and no it wouldn't have been too far from the Enterprise to hit.
The flare had just begun to form when worf makes everyone aware of it.
No timeframe is actually stated for when the scenes change from the bridge of the Enterprise to the Jenolan, but each scene is no more than minutes long and flares do last for extended minute long periods.
Since this flare is in the Enterprise's path it has to be what's striking the ship and would fit with the kind of firepower usually needed to cause damage to the shields.
The second scene shows streams of plasma actually striking the shields and there's nothing besides thick plasma on the viewscreen in that scene.

but given their other performances (such as not being able to handle 600GW particle bursts, or not being able to destroy an ill-consolidated partially hollow asteroid, or not being able to withstand slow collisions), it seems highly unlikely they would be able to withstand flares.

The 600 GW weapon came from a highly powerful lifeform that could wipe trillions of technologically advanced beings away at his leisure, from light years away.
The asteroid doesn't have to be a tight round ball, asteroids aren't and if it was made of a number of smaller, hard materials it wouldn't crunch down into a tight spherical or compact structure with no inner caverns.

These two examples if taken as you've presented them wouldn't work with the numerous examples of Star Trek races destroying large portions of planetary crust, or a massive mountain that dwarfs anything taken out by energy weapons in Stargate, they don't work when the Federation decided to use something besides nuclear arms, or pure kinetic weapons it was for a reason, which given their tech level is superior to modern Earth they could easily field faster moving and larger rounds with their mass accelerator technology they use to launch their torpedoes.
Basically it makes no logical sense for the Federation to use their technology if it's no better than modern day military arms, which anyone who pays attention to the canon of ST knows it is.

As Ouroboros pointed out a ship from Kirk's time could depopulate a planet when commanded to do so, which is something that even the entire nuclear arsenal of the modern world couldn't be used to completely wipe away every Human.

The very dialogue you hold dear contradicts you (especially as you keep referring to it as a flare as well, and flares are not as powerful as CMEs).

Mckay said the CME would fan out as it approached the planet. For something to 'fan out' it must therefore start out compacted, which it clearly was. It was also said to carry enough energy (even after fanning out) to cause severe ecological disruption to the planet, even leading to mass extinctions. For it to do this, it would have to be more powerful than any CME we have observed our own sun produce.

I'm not actually contradicted by anything, the diologue and visuals show that the ejection from the star comes from a small point, this point is no larger than the Daedalus when it strikes the ship.
In order for this CME to be more powerful than any observed it would have to be larger, would have to be an eruption that spread out wide and flung in the direction of the plant, basically if it was that powerful then it would be impossible to deflect it with anything as small as the Daedalus.
The simple fact here is that we witness larger and more powerful CMEs than this one in Echoes on a regular basis from Sol, this is a fact and since we have more than just visuals, we have the fact nobody says the Daedalus can deflect it and the diologue that McKay is talking about it coming from a small point, meaning it could only focus so much of the Star's output, which could not be in the millions of Gigatons that Sol produces.
The smallest one documented from Sol emerged from an area 10,000 miles accross, only flares are smaller, this is according to science, which matters most.

Or they could simply be fancy shockwaves that are a byproduct of the chain reaction weapons used. The complete absence of fireballs and mushroom clouds does not support huge energy releases, no matter what you might insist.

To quote from Wikipedia:

The shockwaves that you insist are dust clouds should be swept upwards, as a result of the huge releases of energy you insist are happening. This is clearly not the case. Whatever they are, they sweep outwards.

Actually even the Tsar bomb's plume actually flattened out at 40 miles, so what you're stating here is nonsense.
The clouds created by the weapons in TDIC were much larger than any bomb ever detonated on Earth, detonations like the tsar's wouldn't look like anything but tiny specs when viewed from space.
The fact here as I keep pointing out is we can actually see these clouds spreading out, you can't see much at all from the Earth on it's darkest side when looking from even orbital distances and the fleet in TDIC was much further than that when they struck the planet.
These weapons are creating clouds which are light enough to be easily viewed from high above the planet.

Yet even your own estimates from the Mark 9 warhead suggest at least megaton-level firepower for Hataks, which would naturally translate into megaton-level shields.

The Ha'Taks in Beach Head were firing many shots, they did so over a considerable period of time, many minutes, accross three Ha'Taks would mean hundreds to thousands of pulses for the Ha'Taks, we have to take into consideration that the 303 was firing missiles this wouldn't mean Megaton level pulses from the Ha'Taks, at best it's high kiloton.

Likewise with Enemies. Clearly there is therefore something else at work here (as mentioned before, shields which are only 40% effective might be more porus to incoming energy, letting it through the shield with far less resistance, thus not requiring firepower to do the job. After all, Ba'al had agreed to leave the Kwelonans alone).

If they were more porus then it would mean more chance of bleed through, but we see no signs of this, like I said the shields are solid one second then they break through and they're still doing only building level damage to the surrounding space, there's no way they could go up to holding backing even megaton level fire power when they're buckling under such little preassure

Ocamz Razor: shields are still at 40% and still get beaten by nothing more than few rounds that do nothing but cream a building per pulse.
If atmosphere is doing this, then anything considerably stronger will do far worse, especially if it effects the structure of solid objects and barriers.

Yet they can sit by a blue giant star for ten hours... so clearly there is something about being in atmosphere which changes the properties of Goa'uld shields. It causes an anomaly.

The fact is it's weakened by being in atmosphere.
A Blue Giants corona could extend what 20 times further than Sol's, this could easily mean it's weaker than your calculations for the pure solar rays of Sol.

It's simply more of the dialogue you insist is so important- no one was surprised that 600GW could be so effective, no one said 'oh, that's impossible, our shields should withstand far more'. The ship's instruments measured the effects in real scientific terms, which means the ship's instruments could quantify them.

Worf is clearly shocked that a weapon with less than a kiloton of firepower is doing such a thing.
When weapons that can devestate a planet are being held back such a thing is clearly out of the ordinary.
Even older Trek weapons from Humans with limited experience in space produce greater effects than that.
As I keep repeating the weapon came from a being that can wipe away life from numerous worlds, light years away at will, the fact that you're still using such an example and believe it to be an example of weak shields is utterly ridiculous.

Given that teraton is not a widespread or well-known term and gigaton is more so, it would still make more sense to use gigaton.

Well Gigaton is not really any more well known.
The term tera actually sounds more impressive.
It makes no sense to use the term gigaton if Carter is trying to show the weapon was almost a teraton.
She clearly intends to mean single digit gigaton figures, if it was in the hundreds then it would make more sense to say "several hundred gigaton weapon", if it was dozens same thing, why not say over a dozen gigatons or three dozen or something?

And you will not get a fireball with a radius of 100KM with anything less than 812GT.

Rubbish, taking actual figures from a real Tsar bomb I've proven the vaporization radius would be equal to 100 miles.
The calculator you use is wrong, you put in the yield of the Tsar Bomb and it comes up with a fireball a fraction of the size of that weapon's, no wonder you're getting a much larger yield.

Actually, I believe I worked out a while back in this thread that the firepower per shot would be something like 100MT, or 97MT, or some such- this is consistent with Enemies, and matches observations of Hataks needing about a dozen or so shots to take out the shields of another Hatak.

If 2 gigatons accross ten hours is bringing down the shields of the Ha'Tak at maximum output you worked out then there's no way shots are that powerful from a Ha'Tak, at best they would be in the kiloton range, I'm going off of the figures you stood by for the output of a Blue Giant.
Far more than a dozen shots or are usually required to bring down Ha'Tak shields, usually they require many dozens to bring down.
The Ha'Tak in Enemies would be facing a battle of attrition on it's shields, with some recharge happening in that time, it's also still possible that the Ha'Tak was tens of millions of miles from the star, this could still be the edge of the Corona and would be considerably weaker at that location.
The edge of the corona on a Blue Giant would be much lower and those figures would actually work better with what we have from Homecoming or weaker than even his weakened shields, which would actually make sense.
Basically even though Anubis's shields were weakened they should still be much stronger than any other System Lords shields, yet they're still being brought down by such pitiful weapons.

Yet these speeds are never seen. Not once. Plus, to put a further nail in, when Picard and co are looking at the Scimitar (which has to come to a stop in front of the Enterprise), they are not looking through a viewscreen giving them a magnified image- they looking out of a hole in the front of the bridge! So clearly, there is no great distance between the two ships, yet Shinzon still has time to both gawp and order evasive action.

Thrusters are slower, yet they are shown and stated to achieve speeds of kilometers per second.
This happens in Pegasus.
This has already been stated within this thread, I believe it was stated by Tetsujin that in Motion Picture the Enterprise covers a distance of most of the Solar system in a matter of minutes under full impulse speed.
It's a constant fact of the show that canon dictates full impulse is always a high fraction of the speed of light.
I'm not going to entertain anything besides this point because it's ridiculous.
Your are nitpicking, we actually see Picard tell Diana in a message from his console to her's that she is going to engage at full impulse.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I can use even bigger stars to inflate the figures. Alnitak is used for a low-end estimate (it has a radius 20 times that of our sun) and I used the lowest known luminosity of a blue giant (9000 times that of our sun, although Alnitak itself is thought to be 100,000 times more luminous). I used a distance of 3 million KM from the star.

If I used Rigel, which is 117,000 times more luminous than our sun, and 74 times the radius, and the same distance from the star, we arrive at 203.4MT per hour. Even at 10 million KM from Rigel, a ship would still absorb 159.9MT an hour.

None of those figures would be greater than even a fraction of a brush from the flare in Relics.

Mushrooms clouds do indeed push material upwards, and would be accompanied by fireballs as much amounts of energy are released. Dark side or not, we would see something. We don't.

We see the clouds, light is created, these are facts.
The clouds would have to spread out once they reach a certain altitude because of gravity taking effect as clouds slow after any explosion has formed from the weapons contact.
As pointed out above the Tsar Bomb's cloud flattened out at an alititude of 40 miles, this would be barely noticeable at such a distances from the planet, the fact that these clouds are so massive and so clearly visible on such a dark portion of the planet proves they are immensely powerful.

Look, the level of energy in the universe is constant. It cannot be destroyed or created. If you put X amount of energy into a system, you get X out of the system. Ergo, if you put X amount of microwave energy into your food in a microwave, the food will radiate it in the form of heat energy, until it cools completely, but it will radiate the same amount.

I'm well aware, Trek tech isn't magicing stuff away it's transforming it in to a different state, but it doesn't have to release heat unless it's using fission to do so, if it's not then it doesn't always have to release huge amounts of heat in order to be devestating, in fact if matter is being effected on a nano scale there's very little a defence that's designed to work on a macro scale would be able to do to hold back such a force.

If you put into a planet enough energy to destroy a large portion of the crust, that energy will be released in the form of heat, which will in turn cause fireballs, the very visible disruption of the crust (portions of it glowing where it has been superheated by huge energies), and mushroom clouds. None of this happens in TDIC, ergo, direct application of energy is not occurring.

Wrong.
In TDIC we are seeing massive clouds, which are clearly visibible from the very dark side of a Rogue planet, there is no star creating light.
All of the light is coming from inside of the clouds, if they're visible then obviously they are being lit internally.

Collisions are clearly slow. I have explained how Picard and co could see the Scimitar from the gaping hole where the viewer used to be, which shouldn't be possible if took several seconds to reach it at relativistic speeds. You can also choose to ignore clear dialogue where measurements are given in real scientific terms, where no one is surprised at all that 600GW is a problem, but that won't make the example go away.

I've answered and refuted these points both above and in numerous replies prior to this, as has Tetsujin and many other posters.
What's canon is canon.

Rubbish. You're ignorng real science and the laws of thermodynamics to reach your conclusions.

Clearly speaking about your own method of analysis.
I've explained numerous times, my points are clearly based off of the canon of both shows.

Lol, god you compare pieces of evidence that are as far from each other as can possibly be and say they're the same kind of evidence.
You ignore clear proof of greater firepower in ST in favor of nothing but hearsay and clearly weaker canonical evidence, excellent methods of analysis hey Darth.
What you class as real science is actually pure fanon!

Never demonstrated. Plus, the Enterprise-A survived a torpedo detonating inside her primary hull, despite the fact that Worf was able to knock down doors using his head on a more advance ship! A multi-megaton detonation inside her hull should have vaporised Kirk and co!

It was demonstrated.
Dampening and internal force fields have existed since early trek.

Where exactly was this shown?

The Omega Directive.

Ever demonstrated?

Stated outright in canon in the episode Living Witness.

There is no direct evidence the Enterprise was hit by even ONE flare.

There is only evidence for the shields being struck by a flare, there is no evidence that actually contradicts this.

Key word, overloaded.

Key phrase "1st generation technology".

They produced a big fireball in Skin of Evil too, and left behind untouched earth when the fireball dissipated.

Torpedoes are variable yield weapons and can be geared to destroying specific targets.
We never see a close of the planet and couldn't see what you claim from such a great distance.

And people could walk about in the tunnel when by rights, they should have instantly died from the heat present in the tunnel. Further evidence of a chain reaction mechanism.

The amount of damage done is what's important here.
This is advanced technology and it doesn't negate the possibility of a nano interaction weapon, with direct effects on materials.
This would not defy thermodynmics, because materials have changed state, it also doesn't mean that high energies aren't being used.
As usual you try to side step the issues of Trek showing the ability to manipulate and devistate and target, if they can do this then they are effecting the very smallest scale above femto science, meaning they are effecting things on a level modern physics cannot do.

Since there's no evidence to suggest Sokar's fleet had any other types of weapon available, and there was a specific reference to bombardment. Unless you can prove that Hataks use any weapons other than cannons, your point is moot.

My point is not moot, Ha'Tak weapons do not ever show the power you believe them to have.
In all of your time posting within this thread you have never given proof that Ha'Tak's are capable of achieving this feet with their energy cannons, this is a fact, you have no proof.
The Goauld have explosives, which Bra'Tak has used before, even Jacob has had access to a high grade naquadah bomb that according to his words could vaporized a sizeable chunk of the planet and even Al'Kesh use bombs.
So yeah I just proved that the Goauld have other weapons besides their cannons, deployable by bombers and Teltaks.

Which is no different to the Breens utterly ineffective efforts against Starfleet Command, for which you argue there must be extenuating circumstances, yet you won't accept any such notion with Homecoming, despite the lack of necessity for using full power shots, which I have already explained.

These are two different types of evidence.
One is a direct show of force by the Goauld that results in taking down Anubis's ship, with only enough firepower per shot to cave in a building from it's roof down and leave little in the way of a crater underneath it, the other shows nothing of the actual battle and looks suspiciously similar to another event where we are told troops did the damage, logically the only thing possible here is that Stargate is showing the weaker level of force.

I notice you removed the point about Species 8472 being able to destroy a planet with their combined firepower, obviously that was damaging to your argument.
Same goes for the superior numbers.
I'll repeat the points I made to Xzzzx, points I've made in the past to you, but they're worth reitterating and really hit home how gate has basically no hope here.
A race with less than are current level of knowledge on physics made a working hyperdrive, working alien weapons, they could duplicate numerous devices they came into contact with, without the level of technology or scientific knowledge to analyze such devices down to the nano scale.
Trek massively outnumbers, out guns and out defends stargate in all but one area, speed, this is a fact and the speed will be matched in next to no time because of the Federation's superior knowledge of physics.

[darth_timon]

That flare is directly in the path of the Enterprise and no it wouldn't have been too far from the Enterprise to hit.
The flare had just begun to form when worf makes everyone aware of it.
No timeframe is actually stated for when the scenes change from the bridge of the Enterprise to the Jenolan, but each scene is no more than minutes long and flares do last for extended minute long periods.
Since this flare is in the Enterprise's path it has to be what's striking the ship and would fit with the kind of firepower usually needed to cause damage to the shields.
The second scene shows streams of plasma actually striking the shields and there's nothing besides thick plasma on the viewscreen in that scene.

For the first flare to be so clearly visible (as well as the horizon of the star) the flare would have to be hundreds of thousands of KM away at least.

Furthermore, for all your insistence that being caught up in a flare would be a multi-gigaton event...

Below is a quote from Mike Wong during his debate with a 'Lord Edam':

Besides, solar flares are powerful, but they're also diffuse. The most monstrous flares and CMEs from our own Sun (which is more than twice as powerful as the star in "Relics") can unleash a billion megatons of energy, but it's spread over an area of some fifty billion square kilometres! A miniscule starship in orbit (<100,000 m²) would receive less than 2 kilotons (8 TJ) from such a blast, which is what the E-D was supposedly absorbing every 3½ seconds in "Relics" anyway! You can not evade "Relics" by using flares as your precious "escape clause", Edam.

So, for all your claims that the E-D would have been absorbing gigaton-level energies, it seems she would not have been, not even close. This makes Relics tie in still further with the other evidence.

The 600 GW weapon came from a highly powerful lifeform that could wipe trillions of technologically advanced beings away at his leisure, from light years away.

Not relevant. What is relevant is that no one is surprised such firepower could take out their shields, and the ship's instruments recorded the shots in real scientific terms.

The asteroid doesn't have to be a tight round ball, asteroids aren't and if it was made of a number of smaller, hard materials it wouldn't crunch down into a tight spherical or compact structure with no inner caverns.

For the asteroid to be even as remotely as dense as you claim, gravity would have forced into a more spherical shape. This is unavoidable, unless you want to try and invoke unknown funky mechanisms or elements, for which you will be inventing fanon again.

These two examples if taken as you've presented them wouldn't work with the numerous examples of Star Trek races destroying large portions of planetary crust, or a massive mountain that dwarfs anything taken out by energy weapons in Stargate, they don't work when the Federation decided to use something besides nuclear arms, or pure kinetic weapons it was for a reason, which given their tech level is superior to modern Earth they could easily field faster moving and larger rounds with their mass accelerator technology they use to launch their torpedoes.
Basically it makes no logical sense for the Federation to use their technology if it's no better than modern day military arms, which anyone who pays attention to the canon of ST knows it is.

Clearly you don't pay attention to canon, because you dismiss canon visuals in favour of speculation, but I'll come to that in more detail in a moment...

Facts are facts. The E-D, even if she did get struck by flares, was not actually going to take gigatons of energy in the process. Her shields were brought down by a 600GW weapon, regardless of whether it was 600GW fired by a ship made by an alien or not. They needed most of their torpedoes to destroy an ill-consolidated, partially hollow asteroid. Federation and Federation-equivalent ships can be destroyed by relatively slow collisions (regardless of your insistence they are fast, this is never demonstrated, and you cannot ignore visuals simply because you don't want to).

As Ouroboros pointed out a ship from Kirk's time could depopulate a planet when commanded to do so, which is something that even the entire nuclear arsenal of the modern world couldn't be used to completely wipe away every Human.

Was this ever demonstrated on screen? No, it wasn't. Without reference to the episode in question, we cannot even judge the context- for all we known, Kirk was bluffing.

I'm not actually contradicted by anything, the diologue and visuals show that the ejection from the star comes from a small point, this point is no larger than the Daedalus when it strikes the ship.
In order for this CME to be more powerful than any observed it would have to be larger, would have to be an eruption that spread out wide and flung in the direction of the plant, basically if it was that powerful then it would be impossible to deflect it with anything as small as the Daedalus.
The simple fact here is that we witness larger and more powerful CMEs than this one in Echoes on a regular basis from Sol, this is a fact and since we have more than just visuals, we have the fact nobody says the Daedalus can deflect it and the diologue that McKay is talking about it coming from a small point, meaning it could only focus so much of the Star's output, which could not be in the millions of Gigatons that Sol produces.
The smallest one documented from Sol emerged from an area 10,000 miles accross, only flares are smaller, this is according to science, which matters most.

Except that, in these circumstances, their sensors had already told them the CME would start out condensed, and then fan out, and even after becoming more diffuse, still carry out the disruption of a planetary eco-system millions of KM away. It would therefore have to carry a lot of energy. This is dialogue driven evidence- you know, the type you insist must be correct when it comes to impulse speeds for Federation ships, yet apparently is not admissible even when Mckay's gone as far as to explain how the CME will start out condensed, then fan out, yet still contain enough energy to trigger mass extinctions?

Actually even the Tsar bomb's plume actually flattened out at 40 miles, so what you're stating here is nonsense.
The clouds created by the weapons in TDIC were much larger than any bomb ever detonated on Earth, detonations like the tsar's wouldn't look like anything but tiny specs when viewed from space.

Just before I delve deeper, as an aside, since the nukes used in the SG1 Season 2 opener caused EMP, they would have to have detonated. Perhaps the properties of naquadah affected the appearance of the explosions.

I will have to reply to the rest tomorrow, as my baby girl is asleep, so time for bed.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

For the first flare to be so clearly visible (as well as the horizon of the star) the flare would have to be hundreds of thousands of KM away at least.

The flare was moving towards the Enterprise, this was clearly at a fast pace, for the movement of said flare to be as visible as it was and the fact that plasma clearly comes into contact with the ship, engulfing the ship to the point where it's

Furthermore, for all your insistence that being caught up in a flare would be a multi-gigaton event...

Below is a quote from Mike Wong during his debate with a 'Lord Edam':

So, for all your claims that the E-D would have been absorbing gigaton-level energies, it seems she would not have been, not even close. This makes Relics tie in still further with the other evidence.

You rely on the same website, from somebody who relies on an innaccurate calculator and you expect me to take his calculations as accurate.
2 kilotons per 3 seconds would not be enough to effect the Enterprise's shields to the point of draining them.
Galaxy class starships withstand gigatons worth of firepower, this is what is required to drain the shields.

Not relevant. What is relevant is that no one is surprised such firepower could take out their shields, and the ship's instruments recorded the shots in real scientific terms.

Worf is surprised that such low firepower can do anything to the shields and he "re-assembles the shields" meer moments later.
600GWs is less than a kiloton, thus would not tie in with other weapons that have drained such shields.

For the asteroid to be even as remotely as dense as you claim, gravity would have forced into a more spherical shape. This is unavoidable, unless you want to try and invoke unknown funky mechanisms or elements, for which you will be inventing fanon again.

Rubbish.
An asteroid of that size wouldn't have the gravity to instantly crush itself into a spherical shape.
We have no specifics on what the Asteroid was composed of, or when it came together.
Canon constantly refers to photon torpedoes carrying yields of 1.5kg of Antimatter to Matter, yet you ignore this fact, it's stated numerous times through star trek.
Such weapons are stated regularly to be capable of destroying far weaker structures, the only possibility is that the Asteroid is made of stronger materials than you believe.

Clearly you don't pay attention to canon, because you dismiss canon visuals in favour of speculation, but I'll come to that in more detail in a moment...

Speaking for yourself again I see.

Facts are facts. The E-D, even if she did get struck by flares, was not actually going to take gigatons of energy in the process. Her shields were brought down by a 600GW weapon, regardless of whether it was 600GW fired by a ship made by an alien or not.

Your beloved Mike Wong even made the flare's absorbtion into the E-D's shields 2 kilotons per every 3 seconds and this takes 3 hours to apparently fully drain the shields.
600GWs wouldn't even come close to that level of output, that would be a fraction of a kiloton.

They needed most of their torpedoes to destroy an ill-consolidated, partially hollow asteroid.

An asteroid composed of some unknown material.
You're making a judgement based off of litterally no evidence.

Federation and Federation-equivalent ships can be destroyed by relatively slow collisions (regardless of your insistence they are fast, this is never demonstrated, and you cannot ignore visuals simply because you don't want to).

Canon makes these high speed collisions, not me.
You're ignoring what are the facts of the show basically cherry picking evidence that suits your opinion!

Was this ever demonstrated on screen? No, it wasn't. Without reference to the episode in question, we cannot even judge the context- for all we known, Kirk was bluffing.

Ouroboros made the statement, I'll have to find the episode, but it does sound familiar and it would fit within the trek timeline, this you cannot argue, not when a previous generation of ship coudl destroy a mountain with an overloaded blast and future federation ships can wipe away a planet's surface with a number of volleys of their weapons.

Except that, in these circumstances, their sensors had already told them the CME would start out condensed, and then fan out, and even after becoming more diffuse, still carry out the disruption of a planetary eco-system millions of KM away. It would therefore have to carry a lot of energy. This is dialogue driven evidence- you know, the type you insist must be correct when it comes to impulse speeds for Federation ships, yet apparently is not admissible even when Mckay's gone as far as to explain how the CME will start out condensed, then fan out, yet still contain enough energy to trigger mass extinctions?

I'm going off of facts of what our own Star has been observed to produce in the way of CMEs.
These CMEs are emitted from an area 10,000kms wide, much smaller than the ejection (I'll call it that to be generous) in Echoes.
CMEs do not fan out from such small sections of a star.

Just before I delve deeper, as an aside, since the nukes used in the SG1 Season 2 opener caused EMP, they would have to have detonated. Perhaps the properties of naquadah affected the appearance of the explosions.

So now Naquadah is allowed to defy the laws of physics?
There was no normal nuclear detonation, these were chemical sized explosions, with no bright or even low level flashes.