Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[darth_timon]

I must agree can you please merge your post into one please

I don't it's that simple unfortunately. The way most boards work, especially with the limits to the size of the posts, means they tend to balloon quite easily.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I've merged two posts into one, after Darth's #1706, I see no reason to merge the rest, it's no different to writing separate paragraphs and my replies before post #1706 were too long to have in one post.

If I put everything into one post it would just get confusing, it isn't atm, not if you read what I wrote.

The points are there, they're easy to read, if you read them you'd see what you need to reply to.
It's not like I wrote everthing into a block of text with no paragraphs or spaces between them.



I'm gonna add to the evidence for defence strength in Star Trek, the Borg built at least one of their transwarp conduit hubs in orbit of what appears to be a Blue Giant.
These hubs are present in at least six locations in the milky way and the one in Endgame had to have been sitting in the corona of it's blue giant for over a year, this hub is many times the size the Ha'Tak in Enemies and because it had to have sat on top of that star for over a year it would have to deal with multiple flares and coronal mass ejections for the length of time it sat in orbit.
This one piece of technology shows that the Borg possess shields and associated technologies that can hold back multiple flares and CME's.

If a star like Sol throws out CMEs that produce a Hundred and Sixty Million Gigaton CMEs, then a blue giant would have to put out far larger CMEs.

This piece of borg technology would have to possess immensely powerful shields.

This technology could have been known to Seven by either some point in season 3 of the show or she could have found out about it in Dark Frontier (season 5), but considering the Borg's ease at sending ships throughout the galaxy it would seem that the hubs have existed for quite some time, possibly before Voyager but after Best of Both Worlds, probably a while after Desent considering Law's Borg couldn't shields against regular plasma eruptions from the star that the ED targeted.

Anyway this one piece of technology shows that the Borg possess shields capable of holding back such CMEs that would have to dwarf even our own star's.

[Gormagon]

I personally believe that different scifi universes are generally incompatible. Like trying to get a negative charge to stick to another negative charge. But, what the heck. Lets go with something that may have been discussed before but is still cool.
Reman warbird VS Anubis super mothership.
I believe it would be a tough and interesting fight. Let us compare four things from each vessel.
Shields.
Main weapons.
Hull.
Special.

The Anubis mothership.
Shields- Upgraded Goa'uld shields, and the shields generated by a standard Ha'tak vessel are capable of resisting a 1G.t Naquadah-enhanced Nuclear warhead with no apparent damage, and if at full strength can remain in the Corona of a blue giant Star(Were temperatures range 30,000-50,000 Kelvin.) from for up to ten hours without danger of crew exposure to dangerous levels of radiation. The Anubis shields are based on ancient technology, meaning they will be virtually immune to many less advanced weapons.

Main weapons-Estimated 180 upgraded staff cannons. Why? A normal Ha'tak has 60 standard staff cannons. So I compared the sizes and came up with that number.

Hull-Hardened naquadah alloy.

Special- Plasma arc weapon capable of destroying three Ha'tak in one discharge. Its unique effect being it can leap from target to target.

Scimitar.
Shields-Primary and secondary shields. What exactly this means I am unsure, but because of the energy cost to run two shield systems at once I would say the Scimitar simply has a backup emitter system. Or, the secondary layer is weak compared to the primary. Now, according to my math, the Scimitar had taken about 1200MT worth in damage when it was at 70%. So its total shield power would be about 3800m.t. give or take.

Main weapons-52 disruptor cannons. I would put Goa'uld blast cannons and disruptor cannons pretty close in terms off effectiveness. (I am not counting the photon torpedo launchers of the Scimitar or the naquadah bombs of the Anubis mothership because they were not seen used in the movie/show.)

Hull- Most likely a duranium alloy.

Special-Can fire its disruptors when cloaked. I am not counting the Thalaron radiation emitters because they take so fraking long to charge up and because I do not think the Scimitar could use them when cloaked.

[McAvoy]

I personally believe that different scifi universes are generally incompatible. Like trying to get a negative charge to stick to another negative charge. But, what the heck. Lets go with something that may have been discussed before but is still cool.
Reman warbird VS Anubis super mothership.
I believe it would be a tough and interesting fight. Let us compare four things from each vessel.
Shields.
Main weapons.
Hull.
Special.

The Anubis mothership.
Shields- Upgraded Goa'uld shields, and the shields generated by a standard Ha'tak vessel are capable of resisting a 1G.t Naquadah-enhanced Nuclear warhead with no apparent damage, and if at full strength can remain in the Corona of a blue giant Star(Were temperatures range 30,000-50,000 Kelvin.) from for up to ten hours without danger of crew exposure to dangerous levels of radiation. The Anubis shields are based on ancient technology, meaning they will be virtually immune to many less advanced weapons.

I am just remark on this: isn't out of a realm of possibility that those shields actually vaporized the missile before it could explode? I am just saying this because the explosion against the shield was incredibly small. In fact comparable to something you would expect from a conventional explosion.

Main weapons-Estimated 180 upgraded staff cannons. Why? A normal Ha'tak has 60 standard staff cannons. So I compared the sizes and came up with that number.

Let's not make up numbers now. It could 18,000 for all we know. Or just 18.

Special- Plasma arc weapon capable of destroying three Ha'tak in one discharge. Its unique effect being it can leap from target to target.

The weapon could be something unique in that while it's a weapon it reacts to shields or whatever to make it effective. For all we know that weapon would ineffective against Scimitar's shields as it could be of a different configuration.

Scimitar.
Shields-Primary and secondary shields. What exactly this means I am unsure, but because of the energy cost to run two shield systems at once I would say the Scimitar simply has a backup emitter system. Or, the secondary layer is weak compared to the primary. Now, according to my math, the Scimitar had taken about 1200MT worth in damage when it was at 70%. So its total shield power would be about 3800m.t. give or take.

Care to show us this math?

Main weapons-52 disruptor cannons. I would put Goa'uld blast cannons and disruptor cannons pretty close in terms off effectiveness. (I am not counting the photon torpedo launchers of the Scimitar or the naquadah bombs of the Anubis mothership because they were not seen used in the movie/show.)

I'll let someone else take over for this one.

[Ouroboros]

I've been watching the old original Star Trek remastered lately and man does the new one ever seem to take a step back in terms of combat capability. Kirk's ship fought at FTL/Warp speeds and seemed to have the ranges necessary to make that possible. There's plenty of shots of the Enterprise shooting off into blank space and even talk about things being "out of visual range", imagine that!

So apparently not only would the original Enterprise completely crap all over everything in Stargate, but also apparently everything that came after it in Star Trek and was supposedly "more advanced".

I also just got done watching an episode where Kirk orders Scotty to ready the Enterprise to depopulate an entire planet, from outside that planet's effective weapon range. Presumably since planets can't dodge and ships can. I was pretty impressed that the old girl would be capable of something like that all by herself, and much preferred Kirk's style of "negotiation" with overtly ridiculous and hostile aliens as well.

[darth_timon]

Who wins in a fist fight, Teal'c or Worf?

[Gormagon]

Dear lord^.....that is a good one. Strength aside, (Klingons are supposed to be about 4x stronger then a human, since they are stronger then a Vulcan.)who has the better training? Training is more important then strength.(Barring freak circumstances.)

[Gormagon]

I am just remark on this: isn't out of a realm of possibility that those shields actually vaporized the missile before it could explode? I am just saying this because the explosion against the shield was incredibly small. In fact comparable to something you would expect from a conventional explosion.

I dont think so, it would have been a detonate on impact warhead.

Let's not make up numbers now. It could 18,000 for all we know. Or just 18.

No...it was a logical estimate based off official Ha'tak cannon numbers. Even if I kept it at 60 it would have more cannons then the Scim.

The weapon could be something unique in that while it's a weapon it reacts to shields or whatever to make it effective. For all we know that weapon would ineffective against Scimitar's shields as it could be of a different configuration.

True, and the Scimitars disruptors may have no effect on Anubis style shields.

Care to show us this math?

Now I got a new PC and I cannot find the site page that had all the specific energy calculations but here is what I remember.
8 photon torpedo's x med yield estimated at 65 m.t each = 2153320 t.j 3 quantum torpedo hits, about 150 m.t each =1863450 t.j. Plus a few dozen phaser hits and disruptor hits which are not nearly as powerful, ranging from about 4000-6,000 t.j in each discharge. Total damage incurred by these numbers= 998 megatons. I added a little for encase of error. There you go.

[McAvoy]

I dont think so, it would have been a detonate on impact warhead.

Something physical yes. Something with a shield? Probably not. Think about it, Whatever type of impact fuse the missile may have must be impacted first. It is certainly possible that the fuse vaporized before it was able to detonate. It's a theory but fits with the visual effects.

No...it was a logical estimate based off official Ha'tak cannon numbers. Even if I kept it at 60 it would have more cannons then the Scim.

Fair enough.

True, and the Scimitars disruptors may have no effect on Anubis style shields.

I never said that the conventional weapons on Anubis's ship may not affect the Scimitar's shields I am talking about the very specialized weapon. I say that because it behaves very differently than we have seen before.

Now I got a new PC and I cannot find the site page that had all the specific energy calculations but here is what I remember.
8 photon torpedo's x med yield estimated at 65 m.t each = 2153320 t.j 3 quantum torpedo hits, about 150 m.t each =1863450 t.j. Plus a few dozen phaser hits and disruptor hits which are not nearly as powerful, ranging from about 4000-6,000 t.j in each discharge. Total damage incurred by these numbers= 998 megatons. I added a little for encase of error. There you go.

Well at least you are not using MW figures like some like to do. However you should increase the phaser power. I say this because, it makes no sense to have ships with torpedo yields 30 or 60 times more powerful than a single phaser hit. In episodes we have seen phaser hits vary from equal to a torpedo or several time less than that or useless. I would increase it to perhaps at least 10,000 TJ per phaser blast.

Did you also include the two Romulan warbirds too?

[Gormagon]

Something physical yes. Something with a shield? Probably not. Think about it, Whatever type of impact fuse the missile may have must be impacted first. It is certainly possible that the fuse vaporized before it was able to detonate. It's a theory but fits with the visual effects.

Mhm....I dont know. A force field is essentially a physical barrier. I think they just crudded up with the visual effect, as Sam said in a later episode "and if they have a shield even our biggest naquadah enhanced nuke might not do it." Referring to a Goa'uld shield.

I never said that the conventional weapons on Anubis's ship may not affect the Scimitar's shields I am talking about the very specialized weapon. I say that because it behaves very differently than we have seen before.

I dont know. I suppose its possible but I still think its a very powerful weapon.

Well at least you are not using MW figures like some like to do. However you should increase the phaser power. I say this because, it makes no sense to have ships with torpedo yields 30 or 60 times more powerful than a single phaser hit. In episodes we have seen phaser hits vary from equal to a torpedo or several time less than that or useless. I would increase it to perhaps at least 10,000 TJ per phaser blast.

MW?

Did you also include the two Romulan warbirds too?

The Valdores? Yes.

[McAvoy]

MW: megawatts. Reference from a TNG episode where megawatt weapon was threatening the E-D.

As far as the shield. It's possible that it was a VFX screwup especially only a few episodes before that the Goauld were reported hitting cities with 200 MT weapons on alt-Earth.

The only problem I see is that we do no see 200 MT caliber weapons after that. The Ori required multiple hits on a mountain to bring it down, when Anubis's first super ship was destroyed over a city, a Asuran weapon couldn't destroy a run of the mill asteroid that was supposed to be capable of bringing down Atlantis's shield given time. Something even the Wraith had an issue with.

As far as the weapons striking shields, the same issue is with Star Trek too. Weapons of supposed power rivaling or exceeding the most powerful of nukes making a very little explosion even on bare hull.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I personally believe that different scifi universes are generally incompatible. Like trying to get a negative charge to stick to another negative charge. But, what the heck. Lets go with something that may have been discussed before but is still cool.
Reman warbird VS Anubis super mothership.
I believe it would be a tough and interesting fight. Let us compare four things from each vessel.
Shields.
Main weapons.
Hull.
Special.

The Anubis mothership.
Shields- Upgraded Goa'uld shields, and the shields generated by a standard Ha'tak vessel are capable of resisting a 1G.t Naquadah-enhanced Nuclear warhead with no apparent damage, and if at full strength can remain in the Corona of a blue giant Star(Were temperatures range 30,000-50,000 Kelvin.) from for up to ten hours without danger of crew exposure to dangerous levels of radiation. The Anubis shields are based on ancient technology, meaning they will be virtually immune to many less advanced weapons.

Main weapons-Estimated 180 upgraded staff cannons. Why? A normal Ha'tak has 60 standard staff cannons. So I compared the sizes and came up with that number.

Hull-Hardened naquadah alloy.

Special- Plasma arc weapon capable of destroying three Ha'tak in one discharge. Its unique effect being it can leap from target to target.

Scimitar.
Shields-Primary and secondary shields. What exactly this means I am unsure, but because of the energy cost to run two shield systems at once I would say the Scimitar simply has a backup emitter system. Or, the secondary layer is weak compared to the primary. Now, according to my math, the Scimitar had taken about 1200MT worth in damage when it was at 70%. So its total shield power would be about 3800m.t. give or take.

Main weapons-52 disruptor cannons. I would put Goa'uld blast cannons and disruptor cannons pretty close in terms off effectiveness. (I am not counting the photon torpedo launchers of the Scimitar or the naquadah bombs of the Anubis mothership because they were not seen used in the movie/show.)

Hull- Most likely a duranium alloy.

Special-Can fire its disruptors when cloaked. I am not counting the Thalaron radiation emitters because they take so fraking long to charge up and because I do not think the Scimitar could use them when cloaked.

Anubis's mothership would stand no chance against something as powerful as the Scimatar.
The Scimitar would have clearly defeated the Enterprise E in a straight up fight, it almost did, but the E-E was aided by two Romulan Warbirds which helped.
The Sovereign class is superior to a galaxy class starship.

The Enterprise D has sat closer to it's star in Relics, this episode showed that the Enterprise can handle far more extreme levels of plasma than the Ha'Tak mentioned from Enemies.
The Ha'Tak in Enemies had to be sitting at distances greater than a million kilometers and no flares were either shown or stated to be erupting close to the ship.

In Relics we have clear proof that the Enterprise D had to have been struck directly by a flare, this was at almost point blank range.

Anubis's mothership was brought down by firepower no greater than enough to destroy small apartment sized buildings in Homecoming.
This was at a 5th of his shields normal strength, but this shows how weak the strongest shields of the Goauld are compared to any race from Star Trek that possesses run of the mill shield technology from that universe.

The E-D is less advanced than the E-E and it could handle far more powerful weapons than the Goauld throwed in Homecoming.

There's no way the Scimitar would have a fight on it's hands from even a fleet of Anubis level Ha'Taks.


Voyager could modify it's torpedoes to destroy small planets.
It's standard 25 isoton torpedoes could destroy a city in seconds.
Phasers can drill deep into the ground on low settings.

The nukes used by the Tauri in Serpants Lair didn't detonate with a thousand megatons each like they were stated to, the explosions produced were chemical level, the only possibility there is that they were effected by the shields energy field.
If the nukes had actually detonated properly then the flashes would have to be much brighter, but they weren't.

Star Trek ships after Kirk's era could destroy planets with very little of their arsenal.
A small fleet 10 ships, half Romulan warbirds and half Cardassian Gala class destroyed 30% of a planet's crust on opening volley, we've never seen any Goauld fleet of equal size do such a thing.
A single one of those ships could destroy 3% of a planet's crust with their opening volley, this would surely cause massive damage to the biosphere and sustained firepower for a few minutes in DS9's time would undoubtedy destroy the planet.
Those ships are all supposedly less advanced than an intrepid class if voyager can field a single torpedo that can destroy a small planet with one 200 isoton class 6 torpedo, trek has class ten warheads too, which are supposed to be considerably more powerful, I'd say from that trek has advanced since Kirk's time if they can wipe away a planet with a single warhead.

[Gormagon]

Ok I have a bone to pick with most of that post but I need to find the energy....^

[darth_timon]

The Enterprise D has sat closer to it's star in Relics, this episode showed that the Enterprise can handle far more extreme levels of plasma than the Ha'Tak mentioned from Enemies.
The Ha'Tak in Enemies had to be sitting at distances greater than a million kilometers and no flares were either shown or stated to be erupting close to the ship.

Yet the star in Relics was not nearly as powerful as the one in Enemies, even if we take the smallest possible blue giant, with a luminosity 9000 times that of our sun, and a radius 20 times greater, at a distance of 3 million KM the Hatak would have absorbed 1626MT over ten hours. If we went with a larger blue giant, such as Rigel, and a distance of 3 million KM, this increases to 2034MT over ten hours.

Anubis's mothership was brought down by firepower no greater than enough to destroy small apartment sized buildings in Homecoming.
This was at a 5th of his shields normal strength, but this shows how weak the strongest shields of the Goauld are compared to any race from Star Trek that possesses run of the mill shield technology from that universe.

Yet Goa'uld shields could also absorb gigaton-levels of energy from a star, and the shields weren't stated to be a 5th less powerful, but less than 40% effective. This could easily mean they are more porus in atmosphere, due to the properties of being in an atmosphere. Consequently, Ba'al would not have needed to use as much firepower to take out Anubis' ship (which had also suffered from an internal explosion earlier in the episode, causing unknown damage).

Interestingly, the numbers derived from Enemies tie in quite nicely with some of the firepower estimates from Beach Head.

There's no way the Scimitar would have a fight on it's hands from even a fleet of Anubis level Ha'Taks.

Oh I don't know... all you have to do is ram the Scimitar at clearly sublight speeds and her shields will fail easily.

The nukes used by the Tauri in Serpants Lair didn't detonate with a thousand megatons each like they were stated to, the explosions produced were chemical level, the only possibility there is that they were effected by the shields energy field.
If the nukes had actually detonated properly then the flashes would have to be much brighter, but they weren't.

Do you know what a nuclear detonation looks like in space? It would most likely be a short but bright flash, but far from the typical explosion we normally see, due to the lack of atmosphere.

A small fleet 10 ships, half Romulan warbirds and half Cardassian Gala class destroyed 30% of a planet's crust on opening volley, we've never seen any Goauld fleet of equal size do such a thing.
A single one of those ships could destroy 3% of a planet's crust with their opening volley, this would surely cause massive damage to the biosphere and sustained firepower for a few minutes in DS9's time would undoubtedy destroy the planet.

Yet as I have mentioned before, they displayed none of the effects that should occur of the laws of thermodynamics are being obeyed. With any sufficiently high release of energy, whether nuclear, chemical or kinetic, you will get mushroom clouds and fireballs. This is a fact. If they are not occurring, the weapons are not directly delivering power to the target, and are instead using some sort of chain reaction. You cannot therefore use TDIC as a measure of firepower.

[McAvoy]

Yet Goa'uld shields could also absorb gigaton-levels of energy from a star, and the shields weren't stated to be a 5th less powerful, but less than 40% effective. This could easily mean they are more porus in atmosphere, due to the properties of being in an atmosphere. Consequently, Ba'al would not have needed to use as much firepower to take out Anubis' ship (which had also suffered from an internal explosion earlier in the episode, causing unknown damage).

Porous because it was in the atmosphere? Really? In any other sci fi show or even within Stargate, have you ever heard of the atmosphere reacting with the shields and making them inefficient like that? I mean, that alone would indicate something is poor about the design of the shields.

Oh I don't know... all you have to do is ram the Scimitar at clearly sublight speeds and her shields will fail easily.

Uhhh.... all you need to do is look closely at the indicators before and after the ramming. Shields remained at 70%. Not to mention IN NEARLY EVERY single instance of ramming, shield flares up against a physical object.

Yet as I have mentioned before, they displayed none of the effects that should occur of the laws of thermodynamics are being obeyed. With any sufficiently high release of energy, whether nuclear, chemical or kinetic, you will get mushroom clouds and fireballs. This is a fact. If they are not occurring, the weapons are not directly delivering power to the target, and are instead using some sort of chain reaction. You cannot therefore use TDIC as a measure of firepower.

Fair enough.