Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[darth_timon]

One or little tidbits that I've been looking into...

In Relics, the Enterprise is 150000KM from the surface of the star. Assuming this star was as luminous as our own sun (which it wasn't, as it was smaller, but we'll be generous and say it was), the Enterprise would have absorbed 7.2MT per hour. When the ship enters into orbit around the star, Worf reports that the shields were at 23% and Data says the shields will fail in three hours.

7.2MT x 3 = 21.6MT for 23% shields.

The link below is a screenshot from Enemies, showing the distance between the star and the Hatak. According to Wikepedia, a blue giant star is extremely luminous, up to 25,000 times more luminous than our own sun. If we go with Wikipedia's lowest estimate for a blue giant's luminosity (9000 times greater than our sun), and a radius twenty times that of our sun (the size of the star Alnitak), the Hatak in Enemies would have absorbed nearly 235MT per hour. This is assuming the Hatak was also 150000KM from the blue giant's surface, which it may not have been- if we double the distance then the Hatak would have absorbed 229MT per hour.

Of course, this doesn't account for solar flares, but we never actually see a single flare hit the Enterprise in Relics. Data remarks that the star is entering a period of increased activity but this doesn't mean flares are leaping around left right and centre. Plus, with our ability to predicts flares today, the Enterprise could have used thrusters to move clear of said flares.

It's also worth noting that the inherant greater instabililty of larger stars means they produce more ejections of solar material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Enemiessg1.jpg

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

One or little tidbits that I've been looking into...

In Relics, the Enterprise is 150000KM from the surface of the star. Assuming this star was as luminous as our own sun (which it wasn't, as it was smaller, but we'll be generous and say it was), the Enterprise would have absorbed 7.2MT per hour. When the ship enters into orbit around the star, Worf reports that the shields were at 23% and Data says the shields will fail in three hours.

7.2MT x 3 = 21.6MT for 23% shields.

The link below is a screenshot from Enemies, showing the distance between the star and the Hatak. According to Wikepedia, a blue giant star is extremely luminous, up to 25,000 times more luminous than our own sun. If we go with Wikipedia's lowest estimate for a blue giant's luminosity (9000 times greater than our sun), and a radius twenty times that of our sun (the size of the star Alnitak), the Hatak in Enemies would have absorbed nearly 235MT per hour. This is assuming the Hatak was also 150000KM from the blue giant's surface, which it may not have been- if we double the distance then the Hatak would have absorbed 229MT per hour.

Of course, this doesn't account for solar flares, but we never actually see a single flare hit the Enterprise in Relics. Data remarks that the star is entering a period of increased activity but this doesn't mean flares are leaping around left right and centre. Plus, with our ability to predicts flares today, the Enterprise could have used thrusters to move clear of said flares.

It's also worth noting that the inherant greater instabililty of larger stars means they produce more ejections of solar material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Enemiessg1.jpg

There's no indication that the Ha'Tak was as close as 300,000 kms to it's star's photosphere.
If you recall Jacob says "if we can move close enough to the coronasphere", he later says that "we're entering the coronasphere", from this it cannot be said that the Tauri's Ha'tak went deep into the corona, according to wikipedia the corona of our star extends for millions of kilometers into space, this blue giant's corona could be much larger, basically the Ha'tak could have easily been millions of kilometers from the photosphere.
The very fact that we can see anything besides the star's light proves that the Ha'tak had to be at least millions of kilometers from the photosphere of it's star.
The amount of energy being emitted from the star and effecting the ship at this point would be much lower than your estimates.

Thinking about the distance, if the star in Enemies is 20 times larger than our own and the star in Relics is a similar size (which there's no indication that it wasn't) to sol, there's no way the Ha'tak could be sitting 150,000kms from the photosphere because that star would have to appear 20 times larger than the one in Relics from where the Ha'tak was sitting.
The Ha'Tak has to be sitting much further away for the star's curve to be visible, if it looks a similar size to the one in Relics then being that it's at least 20 time larger than that star it has to be at least 20 times further away from the Photosphere, or around about 2,000,000 kms from the surface of the star.

Onto the issues of the Enterprise dealing with flares.
In short it had have been effected by the flares of the Star in Relics.
When the ship arrives above the photosphere it is at a very close distance, we know this to be an altitude of 150,000 kms (though it's not specifically stated to be 150,000 kms from the photosphere, TBH I don't know if the photosphere is akin to the surface of our planet or whether it's an atmosphere like the one surrounding Earth).
Flares get shot out of a star at very fast speed, while the Enterprise may have been able to work out from the weather patterns of the star's plasma, their close proximity to the star and lack of power to move could easily prevent them from moving at all.

BTW I have to point out that the ship was very much stable when it arrived above the photosphere.
While an outright statement of flares hitting the shields isn't made by the crew, we see effects of a strike on the shields, with the bridge crew being rocked heavily, just like when weapons fire hits the shields.
Lack of any kind of turbulance under the normal calm state of the star when they arrived and this change to the ship being struck by something indicates that given the flares were the only activity happening near the ship proves that the flares were having an effect on the ship.

Even if the Enterprise D wasn't being struck directly by solar prominences, the excess material being thrown out by them has to increase the amount of energy being shot at the Enterprise considerably.
If a regular flare produces millions of gigatons worth of energy and this litterally floods the space on one side of the star there is no way the Enterprise could have avoided at least dealing with a portion of the overall energy being ejected by the star it was close to.
Please see the video in the top right of this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare

If we even said 1% of 1% of the total energy of a flare is hitting the enterprises shields then we're looking at (from 160,000,000 gigatons from a flare) would still have to mean some 16000 gigatons is coming close to the ship, even if a small portion of that was actually striking the Enterprises shields it has to mean gigatons worth of firepower is hitting the shields of the ship.

[qingbest]

There's no indication that the Ha'Tak was as close as 300,000 kms to it's star's photosphere.
If you recall Jacob says "if we can move close enough to the coronasphere", he later says that "we're entering the coronasphere", from this it cannot be said that the Tauri's Ha'tak went deep into the corona, according to wikipedia the corona of our star extends for millions of kilometers into space, this blue giant's corona could be much larger, basically the Ha'tak could have easily been millions of kilometers from the photosphere.
The very fact that we can see anything besides the star's light proves that the Ha'tak had to be at least millions of kilometers from the photosphere of it's star.
The amount of energy being emitted from the star and effecting the ship at this point would be much lower than your estimates.

Thinking about the distance, if the star in Enemies is 20 times larger than our own and the star in Relics is a similar size (which there's no indication that it wasn't) to sol, there's no way the Ha'tak could be sitting 150,000kms from the photosphere because that star would have to appear 20 times larger than the one in Relics from where the Ha'tak was sitting.
The Ha'Tak has to be sitting much further away for the star's curve to be visible, if it looks a similar size to the one in Relics then being that it's at least 20 time larger than that star it has to be at least 20 times further away from the Photosphere, or around about 2,000,000 kms from the surface of the star.

Onto the issues of the Enterprise dealing with flares.
In short it had have been effected by the flares of the Star in Relics.
When the ship arrives above the photosphere it is at a very close distance, we know this to be an altitude of 150,000 kms (though it's not specifically stated to be 150,000 kms from the photosphere, TBH I don't know if the photosphere is akin to the surface of our planet or whether it's an atmosphere like the one surrounding Earth).
Flares get shot out of a star at very fast speed, while the Enterprise may have been able to work out from the weather patterns of the star's plasma, their close proximity to the star and lack of power to move could easily prevent them from moving at all.

BTW I have to point out that the ship was very much stable when it arrived above the photosphere.
While an outright statement of flares hitting the shields isn't made by the crew, we see effects of a strike on the shields, with the bridge crew being rocked heavily, just like when weapons fire hits the shields.
Lack of any kind of turbulance under the normal calm state of the star when they arrived and this change to the ship being struck by something indicates that given the flares were the only activity happening near the ship proves that the flares were having an effect on the ship.

Even if the Enterprise D wasn't being struck directly by solar prominences, the excess material being thrown out by them has to increase the amount of energy being shot at the Enterprise considerably.
If a regular flare produces millions of gigatons worth of energy and this litterally floods the space on one side of the star there is no way the Enterprise could have avoided at least dealing with a portion of the overall energy being ejected by the star it was close to.
Please see the video in the top right of this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare

If we even said 1% of 1% of the total energy of a flare is hitting the enterprises shields then we're looking at (from 160,000,000 gigatons from a flare) would still have to mean some 16000 gigatons is coming close to the ship, even if a small portion of that was actually striking the Enterprises shields it has to mean gigatons worth of firepower is hitting the shields of the ship.

And if you have to example solar flares then I will too. I will use your estimates instead of interjecting my own. If so from your 1% figure on the flare which is 16000 GT and the full figure of 160,000,000 GT then I must refute when the Ha'tak entered the corona then which was outside the surface of the star, and a blue supergiant is alot more powerful in terms of flares, etc. But I will use your estimates and we will assume that it was stationery therefore it took the full blast of a so-called solar flare. I will amend this post or make another when I have the time

[ValaAeryn]

Asgard ships ftw!!

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

And if you have to example solar flares then I will too.

Nobody mentions flares in Enemies and we see no visual evidence that they're forming, so you can't say the Ha'Tak was being hit by them.

I will use your estimates instead of interjecting my own. If so from your 1% figure on the flare which is 16000 GT and the full figure of 160,000,000 GT then I must refute when the Ha'tak entered the corona then which was outside the surface of the star,

As stated above there's no inidication that the Ha'Tak had to deal with any flares, btw a ZPM powered 304 requires a ZPM to hold back a relatively small flare from far further away than the one(s) the Enterprise D was dealing with up close.
A standard 304 that isn't having it's shields boosted by a ZPM has shields at least 3 times stronger than a Ha'Tak and it took a ZPM boosting them to hold back a regular flare from a distance and you want to say that a Ha'Tak can take flares from a more powerful star, I don't think so.

and a blue supergiant is alot more powerful in terms of flares, etc.

I know this, but unless they're shown or mentioned in any diologue then you can't say they are being fired out of the star when the Ha'Tak was in the corona of the Blue Giant in Enemies.

But I will use your estimates and we will assume that it was stationery therefore it took the full blast of a so-called solar flare. I will amend this post or make another when I have the time

You can't use my estimates because there's no evidence the Blue Giant was producing flares that would cause an issue for the Ha'Tak in Enemies.
Even a ZPM powered 304 has trouble holding back a single smaller flare at a far greater distance than the one the Enterprise had to deal with in Relics, you want people to believe that the Ha'Tak could deal with flares from an even more powerful star than the one in the Atlantis episode Echoes, to put it lightly, it's impossible!!

[darth_timon]

There's no indication that the Ha'Tak was as close as 300,000 kms to it's star's photosphere.
If you recall Jacob says "if we can move close enough to the coronasphere", he later says that "we're entering the coronasphere", from this it cannot be said that the Tauri's Ha'tak went deep into the corona, according to wikipedia the corona of our star extends for millions of kilometers into space, this blue giant's corona could be much larger, basically the Ha'tak could have easily been millions of kilometers from the photosphere.
The very fact that we can see anything besides the star's light proves that the Ha'tak had to be at least millions of kilometers from the photosphere of it's star.

Even if the Hatak were three million KM from the star, it would still have absorbed 162.6MT per hour. Bear in mind this is taking the lowestestimate for blue giant luminosity; this is a lower limit. I can more generous still- even at 10 million KM from the star, the Hatak would have absorbed 81.6MT per hour. Since the Hatak was said to be able to sit by the star for ten hours, that's 816MT total absorbtion.

So basically, unless there is conclusive evidence that the Enterprise was actually struck by solar flares, she would not have absorbed more energy than the Hatak. Based on 23% shields being 21.6MT, 92% shields would be 86.4MT.

Onto the issues of the Enterprise dealing with flares.
In short it had have been effected by the flares of the Star in Relics.
When the ship arrives above the photosphere it is at a very close distance, we know this to be an altitude of 150,000 kms (though it's not specifically stated to be 150,000 kms from the photosphere, TBH I don't know if the photosphere is akin to the surface of our planet or whether it's an atmosphere like the one surrounding Earth).
Flares get shot out of a star at very fast speed, while the Enterprise may have been able to work out from the weather patterns of the star's plasma, their close proximity to the star and lack of power to move could easily prevent them from moving at all.

There were able to move quickly enough to escape the sphere altogether when the chance came, and they had manuvering thrusters which were working because they used them to prevent themselves flying right into the star. Flares do not form that quickly.

The next quote is from Mike Wong's site on the matter of Relics:

In "Relics", the Enterprise-D was pulled into a close orbit (150,000km) around a star enclosed in a Dyson sphere. This star was a G-class star which was most likely less than 45% of Sol's luminosity because the Dyson sphere was 2E11m in diameter (66% of Earth's orbital diameter) yet green vegetation and bodies of water could be clearly seen on its inner surface. If the star had been as luminous as Earth's sun, the bodies of water would have quickly boiled away and the vegetation would have been destroyed. The star is said to be releasing a lot of prominences, but we never see the ship actually get engulfed in one of these prominences so they aren't really relevant. At a 150,000km distance from that star's surface (perhaps 700,000km from its centre), the power intensity would be roughly 25-30 MW/m². This is based on the inverse-square law; divide the total luminosity by the surface area of a sphere of 700,000km radius to get intensity.

In order to determine the shield absorption rate at that intensity, we must multiply the intensity by rate of bombardment at that intensity, This figure is derived from calculating the ship's profile area. The stellar radiation which hits an object will be based on the distance from the star, the luminosity of the star, and the ship's profile area. Imagine taking a silhouette of the ship; the area of this silhouette is what the radiation from the star "sees". Now, a GCS is roughly 610m long, and 130m high when viewed from the side. If we assume that it is a rectangle, then its projected surface area is 78,000 m² (note that this is a very generous estimate- the ship is obviously not a solid rectangle when viewed from the side). Some would argue that the entire area of an ellipsoid "bubble" should be used instead of the profile of the ship, thus bumping up the estimate to 100,000 m², and while it is easy to get drawn into a debate over such minutae, it is ultimately a waste of time (it is an obvious nitpick to wrangle over a difference of only 30% in calculations based on low-accuracy source data in the first place). However, the 1E5 m² estimate does have the advantage that it simplifies the mathematics.

In any case, if we simply multiply the power intensity of 25 to 30 MW/m² by 1E5 m², we get 2.5 to 3.0 TW (let's say 3 TW for simplicity's sake). They said they could withstand roughly 3 hours of bombardment at this rate, and their shields were said to be down to 23%. Quarter-strength shields could mean one of two things:

1) a full-strength shield could handle 3 TW for 12 hours.
2) a full-strength shield could handle 12 TW for 3 hours.

Either way, it would appear that roughly 30 megatons of stellar radiation should overwhelm a Federation starship's shields over an extended period of time. A smaller amount would probably suffice if applied all at once.

BTW I have to point out that the ship was very much stable when it arrived above the photosphere.
While an outright statement of flares hitting the shields isn't made by the crew, we see effects of a strike on the shields, with the bridge crew being rocked heavily, just like when weapons fire hits the shields.
Lack of any kind of turbulance under the normal calm state of the star when they arrived and this change to the ship being struck by something indicates that given the flares were the only activity happening near the ship proves that the flares were having an effect on the ship.

Not necessarily. the ship could have been buffeted by far less powerful solar winds. Additionally, the flares from the blue giant (which are typically more unstable and more prone to solar ejections than sub-Sol sized stars) are a factor that I have not included in my own numbers, when I easily could. These flares would dwarf our own sun's, and would definitely dwarf those of a smaller, less powerful star like the one in Relics

Even if the Enterprise D wasn't being struck directly by solar prominences, the excess material being thrown out by them has to increase the amount of energy being shot at the Enterprise considerably.
If a regular flare produces millions of gigatons worth of energy and this litterally floods the space on one side of the star there is no way the Enterprise could have avoided at least dealing with a portion of the overall energy being ejected by the star it was close to.
Please see the video in the top right of this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_flare

If we even said 1% of 1% of the total energy of a flare is hitting the enterprises shields then we're looking at (from 160,000,000 gigatons from a flare) would still have to mean some 16000 gigatons is coming close to the ship, even if a small portion of that was actually striking the Enterprises shields it has to mean gigatons worth of firepower is hitting the shields of the ship.[/QUOTE]

This is all well and good, but you're assuming, with lack of direct evidence, that the Enterprise was caught in any such phenomena, and I again point out that the same possibility exists for the Hatak in Enemies.

[darth_timon]

Nobody mentions flares in Enemies and we see no visual evidence that they're forming, so you can't say the Ha'Tak was being hit by them.

No one mentions flares hitting the Enterprise in Relics, and we cannot say for sure flares were the source of the turbulance the Enterprise encountered.

As stated above there's no inidication that the Ha'Tak had to deal with any flares, btw a ZPM powered 304 requires a ZPM to hold back a relatively small flare from far further away than the one(s) the Enterprise D was dealing with up close.

Actually, the 304 had to deal with a highly focused CME that was said to be capable of completely sterilising the planet Atlantis was on- this is a lot more powerful than any flare our own sun has given out, and the star in Relics was smaller.

A standard 304 that isn't having it's shields boosted by a ZPM has shields at least 3 times stronger than a Ha'Tak and it took a ZPM boosting them to hold back a regular flare from a distance and you want to say that a Ha'Tak can take flares from a more powerful star, I don't think so.

If it's taking a fraction of a flare from a greater distance than the 304 was from a highly focused and very powerful ejection of material, why can't it handle it?

I know this, but unless they're shown or mentioned in any diologue then you can't say they are being fired out of the star when the Ha'Tak was in the corona of the Blue Giant in Enemies.

If you want us to rule in the definite possibility that a flare struck the Enterprise, then you cannot rule out the possibility of an inherently unstable star giving off flares and other ejecta that could strike the Hatak. What's more telling here, is that you need flares to have struck the Enterprise, because otherwise, the Hatak's shields absorb more energy.

[John_Shepard]

I guess that Tok'ra ships can destroy even ten federation ships and even one station class ds9.Ship replicators can destroy even very big romulan and cardassian fleet.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Even if the Hatak were three million KM from the star, it would still have absorbed 162.6MT per hour. Bear in mind this is taking the lowestestimate for blue giant luminosity; this is a lower limit. I can more generous still- even at 10 million KM from the star, the Hatak would have absorbed 81.6MT per hour. Since the Hatak was said to be able to sit by the star for ten hours, that's 816MT total absorbtion.

Where did you get these figures from?

So basically, unless there is conclusive evidence that the Enterprise was actually struck by solar flares, she would not have absorbed more energy than the Hatak. Based on 23% shields being 21.6MT, 92% shields would be 86.4MT.

I have given conclusive proof, but to further support this argument:
Chekoteya appears to have been shut down, I'll use another site:http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/l...ure329/230.txt

DATA: The star has entered a period of increased activity. Our sensors indicate that solar flares will continue to grow. In three hours, our shields will no longer be be sufficient to protect us.

No interpretation is required to see that Data is talking about flares having an effect on the situation.
The only thing that's not stated is how powerful each flare would be, but even the smallest of flares would throw gigatons worth of destructive material at the Enterprise.
Data doesn't say flare, he says flares, the star drive is actually shown being struck by solar debre, so it cannot be said that normal activity is all that's effecting the shields.

Data is outright stating that the flares will continue to grow and that the shields won't be strong enough to stop them after 3 hours.

There were able to move quickly enough to escape the sphere altogether when the chance came, and they had manuvering thrusters which were working because they used them to prevent themselves flying right into the star. Flares do not form that quickly.

They weren't able to move away from the Star and had to use what little power they had left in auxiliary systems to maneuver the ship into orbit after the Tractor beams had thrown them towards the star.
If they could have maneuvered away from the flares it wouldn't have made any sense to mention them at all, as I proved above Data tells us that the Flares will effect the situation, he outright states that the flares are going to become more present and that they will affect the shields.
By the time the E D moved away from the Star they had impulse back, Flares form incredibly quickly, did you not watch the wikipedia video I linked to?
Since sol is many times the size of the Earth and flares throw their energy all over one side of the star a flare like that one would have covered many thousand miles in seconds, it's doubtful the Enterprise's crew would be given time to react, let alone plot a course.

The next quote is from Mike Wong's site on the matter of Relics:

Mike doesn't take into account the flares, which are clearly causing problems for the crew of the Enterprise.
At the very least low Gigatons of energy would be striking the shields of the Enterprise with each flare that was fired from the Star.

Not necessarily. the ship could have been buffeted by far less powerful solar winds.

Solar winds are not mentioned, only flares are stated to be an issue.

Additionally, the flares from the blue giant (which are typically more unstable and more prone to solar ejections than sub-Sol sized stars) are a factor that I have not included in my own numbers, when I easily could. These flares would dwarf our own sun's, and would definitely dwarf those of a smaller, less powerful star like the one in Relics

There's no diologue or visual evidence to support any flares being shot in the direction of the Ha'Tak in Enemies.
Again the Ha'Tak was much further away from it's star in Enemies than the Enterprise D was in Relics, in all seriousness the Ha'Tak would have had time to react, the Enterprise wouldn't have.
I have to point out again that a 304 powered by a ZPM can only just about hold back a small flare at a distance much greater than Enterprise, taking this into consideration there's no way a Ha'Tak could hold back a flare from a far larger and more powerful star than the one in Echoes.

This is all well and good, but you're assuming, with lack of direct evidence, that the Enterprise was caught in any such phenomena, and I again point out that the same possibility exists for the Hatak in Enemies.

I'm not assuming anything, there is direct evidence that the Flares were effecting the Enterprise, I have not stated that the Enterprise was directly struck by a large flare, but we do see debre from a flare striking the shields, this would have to increase the amount of energy being thrown at the ship's shields.
No the same possibility does not exist for the Ha'Tak because a Ha'Tak has weaker shields than a 304, even a 304 requires a ZPM to hold back a small flare, from a greater distance from a weaker star.
The fact that no flares are shown or mentioned means there's no evidence that they were an issue, you and qingbest have to invent a scenario that isn't displayed in any way in the canon of an episode.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

No one mentions flares hitting the Enterprise in Relics, and we cannot say for sure flares were the source of the turbulance the Enterprise encountered.

At 36:07 we see solar debre hitting the shields and at 36:40 we can see waves of plasma on the viewscreen, this is more than enough evidence to prove that the now more intense flares were having an effect on the ship.
The only change mentioned in the star is that flares are getting more intense.
When the Enterprise arrives it shows no effects of turbulance, so any rough weather is the result of the flares coming from the star.

Actually, the 304 had to deal with a highly focused CME that was said to be capable of completely sterilising the planet Atlantis was on- this is a lot more powerful than any flare our own sun has given out, and the star in Relics was smaller.

The 304 was much further away than the Enterprise was, the Enterprise would have to deal with material putting strain on all sides of the shields and not just on part of the shields.

If it's taking a fraction of a flare from a greater distance than the 304 was from a highly focused and very powerful ejection of material, why can't it handle it?

Because a flare from a Blue Giant would be far more powerful.
Nobody in Echoes says the flare is a focused one, Rodney says it will come from a small region, not that it's focused.

If you want us to rule in the definite possibility that a flare struck the Enterprise, then you cannot rule out the possibility of an inherently unstable star giving off flares and other ejecta that could strike the Hatak. What's more telling here, is that you need flares to have struck the Enterprise, because otherwise, the Hatak's shields absorb more energy.

Nobody in enemies said that the Giant was firing off flares in the Ha'Tak's direction, no single flare is shown to strike the shield and the Ha'Tak is more than far enough away from the star to anticipate and move away from a flare.

What's telling is Data says that flares will grow and the shields will not protect after three hours, he never says they couldn't stay where they were for much longer if the Flares weren't being produced by the star.
The flares are having a direct effect on the shields, simply by being present in the star's atmosphere.
We're not comparing similar situations with these stars, the Blue Giant isn't firing off flares, the Relics one is.

What is most telling is that you have to invent an event that isn't even happening to try and level the playing field, there's no way the Ha'Tak is taking more in the way of a Star's power than the Enterprise is.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Another thing that needs to be pointed out was that the Enterprise's shields weren't even raised until after Worf warns Picard that a large magnetic disturbance has begun to form on the surface of the star, this is at 34:15 into the episode.
Basically sitting in that part of the star without shields wouldn't have been an issue until the flares began to form and shot more intense plasma towards the ship.

This and Data's statement proves that the Enterprise would have no problem sitting in the corona of that Star for an extended period of time.

Ever piece of evidence from this episode shows that the Enterprise is clearly being effected by the flares the star is throwing up, whether through indirect or direct strikes it's most definitely the case that the Enterprise would have no problem sitting in the corona of a none flare forming star for far longer than it did in Relics.

[darth_timon]

Where did you get these figures from?

The details for the size of the star I used (Alitank or whatever it was called) can be found on Wikipedia. To work out the rate in megatons that a ship would absorb, I used a Stellar Luminosity Calculator on Stardestroyer.net.

It's worth noting that I could have chosen to use much bigger, more powerful blue giants, or even supergiants. I have gone with the lowest estimates I could find, to establish a conservative lower limit here.

I have given conclusive proof, but to further support this argument:
Chekoteya appears to have been shut down, I'll use another site:http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/l...ure329/230.txt

No interpretation is required to see that Data is talking about flares having an effect on the situation.
The only thing that's not stated is how powerful each flare would be, but even the smallest of flares would throw gigatons worth of destructive material at the Enterprise.
Data doesn't say flare, he says flares, the star drive is actually shown being struck by solar debre, so it cannot be said that normal activity is all that's effecting the shields.

The very first flare we see on the viewscreen would have been thousands of KM away, since they had such a clear view of it. This flare would not have struck the ship.

Any other flares... well, your link makes reference to plasma brushing the shields... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind#Emission as you will see from the link, there is more than just flares that comes from the star, and these other emissions could easily account for the buffeting the Enterprise experienced.

Data is outright stating that the flares will continue to grow and that the shields won't be strong enough to stop them after 3 hours.

At no point does he say the flares will strike the ship.

They weren't able to move away from the Star and had to use what little power they had left in auxiliary systems to maneuver the ship into orbit after the Tractor beams had thrown them towards the star.
If they could have maneuvered away from the flares it wouldn't have made any sense to mention them at all, as I proved above Data tells us that the Flares will effect the situation, he outright states that the flares are going to become more present and that they will affect the shields.
By the time the E D moved away from the Star they had impulse back, Flares form incredibly quickly, did you not watch the wikipedia video I linked to?

Flares flare up quickly- but we can see them developing prior to that. Lack of impulse engines or not, the Enterprise had the ability to maneuver and could have used this.

Since sol is many times the size of the Earth and flares throw their energy all over one side of the star a flare like that one would have covered many thousand miles in seconds, it's doubtful the Enterprise's crew would be given time to react, let alone plot a course.

Some flares are much smaller than others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fl...prominence.jpg

As you will see, it's a mistake to assume the largest flares.

Mike doesn't take into account the flares, which are clearly causing problems for the crew of the Enterprise.
At the very least low Gigatons of energy would be striking the shields of the Enterprise with each flare that was fired from the Star.

He doesn't mention them because there's no evidence for a signal flare striking the ship. No one states a flare hits the ship, we don't see a flare hit the ship, so we should assume a flare does? Yet in the absence of exactly the same information with the blue giant and the Hatak, we should assume the Hatak is not affected by any stellar material over a longer time frame, near a much more energetic and unstable type of star?

I have to point out again that a 304 powered by a ZPM can only just about hold back a small flare at a distance much greater than Enterprise, taking this into consideration there's no way a Ha'Tak could hold back a flare from a far larger and more powerful star than the one in Echoes.

You're ignoring that Mckay specifically mentions the CME in Echos dwarfs anything our sun has ever put out, and it was a CME (not a flare) that the Daedalus was intercepting. Mckay also mentions that the CME will 'fan out' as it moves further away from the star. The natural implication? That it was more focused beforehand.

It was also a CME that was capable of causing a mass extinction event and severing damaging Lantea's ecology. This is further proof that it was more powerful than anything our sun has produced to date, and if the 304 was able to block even 1% of it, it raises the bar for Stargate ship performance. Of course, we know the Daedalus did block it, because the CME never threatened Lantea in the end.

I'm not assuming anything, there is direct evidence that the Flares were effecting the Enterprise, I have not stated that the Enterprise was directly struck by a large flare, but we do see debre from a flare striking the shields, this would have to increase the amount of energy being thrown at the ship's shields.
No the same possibility does not exist for the Ha'Tak because a Ha'Tak has weaker shields than a 304, even a 304 requires a ZPM to hold back a small flare, from a greater distance from a weaker star.
The fact that no flares are shown or mentioned means there's no evidence that they were an issue, you and qingbest have to invent a scenario that isn't displayed in any way in the canon of an episode.

Except that there is no direct evidence for flares hitting the Enterprise, and what we do see hitting the shields does not have to be a flare, and the 304 was struck by an unusually focused and very powerful CME, which it was withstood.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

The details for the size of the star I used (Alitank or whatever it was called) can be found on Wikipedia. To work out the rate in megatons that a ship would absorb, I used a Stellar Luminosity Calculator on Stardestroyer.net.

It's worth noting that I could have chosen to use much bigger, more powerful blue giants, or even supergiants. I have gone with the lowest estimates I could find, to establish a conservative lower limit here.

After all of the nonsense with Mike Wong's inaccurate explosive yield calculator that you used in a number of previous replies I don't trust this calculator, could you not find an independent website that has a calculator of their own?

The very first flare we see on the viewscreen would have been thousands of KM away, since they had such a clear view of it. This flare would not have struck the ship.

That flare was shooting plasma high into the corona, while a direct strike of the initial eruption may not have struck the shields it could have easily shot excess plasma towards the ship, it wasn't like a tight beam, it was spreading out from the photosphere in all directions the side of the star the Enterprise was on.

Any other flares... well, your link makes reference to plasma brushing the shields... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_wind#Emission as you will see from the link, there is more than just flares that comes from the star, and these other emissions could easily account for the buffeting the Enterprise experienced.

There's a distinct lack of anything that causes any buffeting when the Enterprise arrives and as I pointed out in my post numbered #1691 the Enterprise's shields weren't raised until after they'd already established an orbit around the star and Worf has warned that magnetic disturbances are increasing.
If correct your figures of the Relics star's power at the top of your post #1686 only take into consideration normal stable star activity or constant energy that isn't in a peak activity period, considering it's now apparent that the Enterprise was dealing with that when it arrived and prior to raising it's shields, it has to become clear that the Enterprise is withstanding far more than this low level output you take as the main figure, I see no reason why the Enterprise couldn't withstand 2 kilotons of impact to it's hull per second, being that it's made of far stronger materials than are used in today's construction.
Basically I'm saying that the Flares are causing more plasma to be thrown around the ship, that these flares are creating a more violant atmosphere that the ship is sitting in, this would obviously mean the ship is taking far more powerful bursts of energy than the norm, offshoot of the thousands to millions of gigatons being flooded into the corona, it's impossible to get a correct measurement, but it now becomes clear that your estimates are far below the actual energy levels being thrown towards the Enterprise.

At no point does he say the flares will strike the ship.

It's possible they were, but I do think that direct strikes of 1000s of gigatons would be well out of sink with other examples of ST firepower taken to ship's shields, flare byproducts of excess plasma could easily put the shields taking tens to hundreds of gigatons per hour, but given that the number of flares shot out of the star aren't known or the intensity all that can be said is they are an issue.

Flares flare up quickly- but we can see them developing prior to that. Lack of impulse engines or not, the Enterprise had the ability to maneuver and could have used this.

So now you're saying that the Enterprise can move at kilometers per second with it's maneuvering thrusters?
That's what would have been needed to get out of the way.
It's funny that manuevering thrusters and evasive maneuvers aren't mentioned by any member of the crew on the Enterprise before or after it entered an orbit of the star, we see no visual evidence for it, considering main power was out and the auxiliar power was used to just gain an orbit I don't see any evidence that they did or could move the ship until they left the corona near the end of the episode, yet you want to infer that they were or that it was a possibility, there's no evidence for this Darth.

Some flares are much smaller than others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fl...prominence.jpg

As you will see, it's a mistake to assume the largest flares.

I never said the largest of flares were forming, we don't know the number or intensity of flares sent out by the star.
You do realise that those flares would still appear much larger than the Enterprise don't you?
That picture also shows lots of smaller particles that would up the level of energy being thrown into the corona, all of that stuff adds additional factors to your equasions on the amount of energy the Enterprise would be receiving to it's shields.

He doesn't mention them because there's no evidence for a signal flare striking the ship. No one states a flare hits the ship, we don't see a flare hit the ship, so we should assume a flare does?

The normal behavour of the star doesn't effect the Enterprise when it arrives, it doesn't raise it's shields until the flares increase, it was a clear precaution against increased activity in the star.
It's clear from real pictures of flares that they do more than send a tight stream of stuff that doesn't throw anything into the surrounding space.
Mikes equations don't deal with this factor, it would drastically increase the damage the Star could do to a ship.

Yet in the absence of exactly the same information with the blue giant and the Hatak, we should assume the Hatak is not affected by any stellar material over a longer time frame, near a much more energetic and unstable type of star?

The Ha'tak was much closer, we see no evidence of any flares and we're not told they're being thrown at the ship.
Just because a Blue Giant is more active in general that doesn't mean it'll be throwing flares towards the tiny area the Ha'Tak occupies.

You're ignoring that Mckay specifically mentions the CME in Echos dwarfs anything our sun has ever put out, and it was a CME (not a flare) that the Daedalus was intercepting. Mckay also mentions that the CME will 'fan out' as it moves further away from the star. The natural implication? That it was more focused beforehand.

I'm not ignoring anything, I actually looked at the transcript of the episode.
The CME was small judging by how narrow it was coming out of the photosphere, the fact that the daedalus could deflect it proves that it wasn't large enough to continue to harm the planet after it'd passed the ship.

It was also a CME that was capable of causing a mass extinction event and severing damaging Lantea's ecology. This is further proof that it was more powerful than anything our sun has produced to date, and if the 304 was able to block even 1% of it, it raises the bar for Stargate ship performance. Of course, we know the Daedalus did block it, because the CME never threatened Lantea in the end.

The flare lasted for minutes, not hours and Daedalus barely survived, parts of it's hull plating had begun to be blasted off.
We can see that Daedalus didn't block 1% of the total flare, it spread out more than 99% of it, it's not like the shield actuall absorbed the energy and turned it into nothing.
The amount of actual energy coming into contact with the shields would be nowhere near the sum total contained in the flare.
I don't think there's actually a consensus on how much power is needed to make all life extinct, but burning off most of the atmosphere would likely do it, do you have any sources for what that would take to achieve in tons of yield?

Except that there is no direct evidence for flares hitting the Enterprise, and what we do see hitting the shields does not have to be a flare, and the 304 was struck by an unusually focused and very powerful CME, which it was withstood.

If it's not direct flare impacts, then it's byproducts of flares being thrown into the corona, which drastically increase the amount of energy that Enterprise's shields would have to deal with.
Taking into consideration that the ships shields weren't raised until the flares became noticable there's no way your 7 odd megatons of energy per hour was enough to cause the shields to drain, it was the extra activity produced within the corona by flares, I really don't see why this is a problem with the evidence that we have from this episode.

[darth_timon]

After all of the nonsense with Mike Wong's inaccurate explosive yield calculator that you used in a number of previous replies I don't trust this calculator, could you not find an independent website that has a calculator of their own?

If you have an issue with his calculators (and any other issues with him) then it's time you take your issues to him directly. There is another calculator (http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/ani...tellarlum.html), which I am attempting to get to grips with.

I think the second site will yield answers eventually, once I get to grips with it, but for now... it gets a Grrr rating.

That flare was shooting plasma high into the corona, while a direct strike of the initial eruption may not have struck the shields it could have easily shot excess plasma towards the ship, it wasn't like a tight beam, it was spreading out from the photosphere in all directions the side of the star the Enterprise was on.

Could have, but there's no evidence that it did.

There's a distinct lack of anything that causes any buffeting when the Enterprise arrives and as I pointed out in my post numbered #1691 the Enterprise's shields weren't raised until after they'd already established an orbit around the star and Worf has warned that magnetic disturbances are increasing.
If correct your figures of the Relics star's power at the top of your post #1686 only take into consideration normal stable star activity or constant energy that isn't in a peak activity period, considering it's now apparent that the Enterprise was dealing with that when it arrived and prior to raising it's shields, it has to become clear that the Enterprise is withstanding far more than this low level output you take as the main figure, I see no reason why the Enterprise couldn't withstand 2 kilotons of impact to it's hull per second, being that it's made of far stronger materials than are used in today's construction.

You're assuming Worf didn't raise the shields prior to getting within range of potential flares- he simply says 'shields are up', not that he raised them that instant.

The simple fact remains that the star's output was not significantly more than it's normal state, as we see liquid water and vegetation on the inside of the sphere. If the star were much beyond it's normal levels, that vegetation and water would be gone (and yes, I know you might argue 'forcefields protect the surface', but this beggars the question of why anyone would abandon a perfectly habitable sphere capable of supporting a huge population).

Data said the star was entering a period of increased activity, but our own sun does this all the time, in cycles.

Basically I'm saying that the Flares are causing more plasma to be thrown around the ship, that these flares are creating a more violant atmosphere that the ship is sitting in, this would obviously mean the ship is taking far more powerful bursts of energy than the norm, offshoot of the thousands to millions of gigatons being flooded into the corona, it's impossible to get a correct measurement, but it now becomes clear that your estimates are far below the actual energy levels being thrown towards the Enterprise.

Except of course, that we still have no direct evidence for lots of flares. Plus, what is the frequency of these flares? The size? Even at solar maximum, our own, larger, more powerful star produces 20 solar flares a day, which will not be concentrated on any specific region of the star. These flares also only last for minutes at most. They disperse as they move out and become less concentrated.

It's possible they were, but I do think that direct strikes of 1000s of gigatons would be well out of sink with other examples of ST firepower taken to ship's shields, flare byproducts of excess plasma could easily put the shields taking tens to hundreds of gigatons per hour, but given that the number of flares shot out of the star aren't known or the intensity all that can be said is they are an issue.

So it could easily be two glancing blows, and perhaps even then, only dealing with the after effects. And you're right, taking many flares would indeed by far out of sync with our examples.

So now you're saying that the Enterprise can move at kilometers per second with it's maneuvering thrusters?
That's what would have been needed to get out of the way.
It's funny that manuevering thrusters and evasive maneuvers aren't mentioned by any member of the crew on the Enterprise before or after it entered an orbit of the star, we see no visual evidence for it, considering main power was out and the auxiliar power was used to just gain an orbit I don't see any evidence that they did or could move the ship until they left the corona near the end of the episode, yet you want to infer that they were or that it was a possibility, there's no evidence for this Darth.

Just like there's no evidence for a constant bombardment from flares, or even a single direct hit. Plus, if they could turn the ship enough to get into orbit, they could conceivably move the ship enough to avoid flares, especially given that with our ability to predict them today, they could be better at it in the 24th Century, don't you think?

I never said the largest of flares were forming, we don't know the number or intensity of flares sent out by the star.
You do realise that those flares would still appear much larger than the Enterprise don't you?
That picture also shows lots of smaller particles that would up the level of energy being thrown into the corona, all of that stuff adds additional factors to your equasions on the amount of energy the Enterprise would be receiving to it's shields.

You're assuming these would be close to the Enterprise, which they may not have been.

The normal behavour of the star doesn't effect the Enterprise when it arrives, it doesn't raise it's shields until the flares increase, it was a clear precaution against increased activity in the star.
It's clear from real pictures of flares that they do more than send a tight stream of stuff that doesn't throw anything into the surrounding space.
Mikes equations don't deal with this factor, it would drastically increase the damage the Star could do to a ship.

So the star suddenly enters into a much more active state just as the Enterprise arrives? And I've already explained that Worf's statement could easily be interpreted to mean the shields were already up.

The Ha'tak was much closer, we see no evidence of any flares and we're not told they're being thrown at the ship.
Just because a Blue Giant is more active in general that doesn't mean it'll be throwing flares towards the tiny area the Ha'Tak occupies.

Yet we're supposed to accept that flares were a very real danger to the Enterprise, when the size of the Enterprise relative to even the star in Relics doesn't mean it'll be throwing flares toward the tiny area she occupies, yet we should completely discount this possibility with the Hatak, which spends longer near that star than the Enterprise spends near their star?

This is a double-standard Phoenix. You want us, without direct proof, visual or otherwise, to accept the very real possibility that the Enterprise was hit by at least one flare. Yet, in the same circumstances, you won't allow for the possibility of the Hatak sustaining the same thing, even though it was near an inherently more unstable star, which is more prone to ejecta than even our own star at solar maximum?

I'm not ignoring anything, I actually looked at the transcript of the episode.
The CME was small judging by how narrow it was coming out of the photosphere, the fact that the daedalus could deflect it proves that it wasn't large enough to continue to harm the planet after it'd passed the ship.

If you'd looked at the transcript then you'd have read the part where Mckay says the CME dwarfs anything our own star has produced. Typical Sol CMEs are the equivalent of 160E9MT. This one was bigger, and the Daedalus faced it head on. Even 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% is 158,400MT, or 158GT, and this is using a Sol CME as a guideline, let alone the one from Echos, which was specifically stated to be more powerful.

The flare lasted for minutes, not hours and Daedalus barely survived, parts of it's hull plating had begun to be blasted off.
We can see that Daedalus didn't block 1% of the total flare, it spread out more than 99% of it, it's not like the shield actuall absorbed the energy and turned it into nothing.

Indeed, but as I pointed out above, even 0.001% of that is staggering, and that's using a Sol CME for a conservative lower limit.

I don't think there's actually a consensus on how much power is needed to make all life extinct, but burning off most of the atmosphere would likely do it, do you have any sources for what that would take to achieve in tons of yield?

I'll try and find out.

Can we at least agree that the Hatak would have absorbed a lot more energy than you've previously given them credit for, based on what it did in Enemies?

[qingbest]

http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/ani...tellarlum.html
I believe I have got a estimate from the numbers it has spun up on this calculator according to my calculations which I am not going to post as it would just take up alone 20-30 posts, anyway for a class-M star as quoted in Relics(which I have not watched) on a low end would be just approx. 7.1MT per hour and a class-O star as observed in Enemies on a low-end would be approx. 315MT per hour the ha'tak would be, however take my numbers or not, there could be a equation error on my calculations and could account for some figures. As with darth_timon post double the figure, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.