Star Trek Ships vs. Stargate Ships

[boxdudea]

Yeah. I think nothing in stargate can beat star trek. I think there is no hope for us unless we lurre the star trek ships in a system and shoot a ZPM into a star and detonate it and trap all the star trek ships.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

I doubt any race in any sci-fi universe would be stupid enough to fall for any trap like that, but yeah short of detonating a ZPM, blowing up a star or using a TDF in some elaborate manner I don't think any race from the SG universe would be doing much harm to the ST guys.
Starfleet guys in particular are great problem solvers, in technical and a variety of other ways.
The Dominion were pretty crafty at times and the Borg just have the entire collective all working in unison to get past almost any objective they come accross (short of race such as 8472), but they can always assimilate some other race who's already figured out the problem.

[RJLCyberPunk]

Seeing this back and forth about "My franchise has a bigger size penis than yours" just reminded me why I kept away from this debates for so long.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

Seeing this back and forth about "My franchise has a bigger size penis than yours" just reminded me why I kept away from this debates for so long.

I'm not sure if this was directed at anyone in particular, if it was me then I'll say I like Stargate and Star Trek pretty much equally, I'm only stating the facts as I see them, not trying to one up anyone.
Statements backed up by no evidence or explanation such as your last one aren't really constructive to this debate.
Basically I just answered your comment "I have no clue as to how they got into the conclusion that SG Earth could be defeated by Trek ships", it's because that's what the cannon of the ST universe shows us.
I don't care about all this "my universe is better than your's" rubbish, I just care about the facts!

[boxdudea]

I would like to know how would a Kull warrior do agianst a Phasor blast or a Distruptor?

[RJLCyberPunk]

I'm not sure if this was directed at anyone in particular, if it was me then I'll say I like Stargate and Star Trek pretty much equally, I'm only stating the facts as I see them, not trying to one up anyone.
Statements backed up by no evidence or explanation such as your last one aren't really constructive to this debate.
Basically I just answered your comment "I have no clue as to how they got into the conclusion that SG Earth could be defeated by Trek ships", it's because that's what the cannon of the ST universe shows us.
I don't care about all this "my universe is better than your's" rubbish, I just care about the facts!

And the facts are there is no shred of proof that Trek ships can defeat Asgard and Ancient technology at all.
And I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone is just how this kind of debates end up and work to begin with.

The truth is there is not many Pro SG side posters on this thread here besides myself I stil have to figure that out given the fact this is a Stargate fan forum but besides that there is also the presence of explosives of huge power, such as Naquadria, the dust the Goa'uld tampered a ZPM with which could obliterate a whole solar system no need to make the star go nova like in Trek or SW. although they could do that too. The firepower that is seen in SG does not correlate with the yields in explosives, capabilites to fly near blue giants or anything like that.

So the final judgement is that SG actual firepower is impossible to really gauge and that as such this thread any Vs thread is a waste of time, my cents...

[RJLCyberPunk]

I would like to know how would a Kull warrior do agianst a Phasor blast or a Distruptor?

Well according to the Pro Trek side the armor is weaker than tin foil so there...

[Tetsujin]

I would like to know how would a Kull warrior do agianst a Phasor blast or a Distruptor?

I would to. I do believe a phaser on high discharge is more powerful than a staff weapon even if a staff seems to have more longevity as far as how many shots. I think the Kull armor was a plot device and overpowered and the writers knew it which is why they got rid of it. Logically speaking, everyone who ever defeated a Kull warrior would take his armor forever since it has been proven effective when used by regular people(Daniel Jackson). It had to disappear, because honestly an army or even a couple Sg teams with that armor would be a kill joy for any kind of excitement in gunfights.

And the facts are there is no shred of proof that Trek ships can defeat Asgard and Ancient technology at all.
And I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone is just how this kind of debates end up and work to begin with.

Actually, the proof is all the posts I and Rise of the Phoenix have been putting forth for the past who knows how many pages. I think the Ancients and the Ori are the only possibly beyond general trek in ship to ship combat, and that is assuming phaser wont function like plasma beam weapons and eat through Asgard, Lantean, and Ori, shielding.

The truth is there is not many Pro SG side posters on this thread here besides myself I stil have to figure that out given the fact this is a Stargate fan forum but besides that there is also the presence of explosives of huge power, such as Naquadria, the dust the Goa'uld tampered a ZPM with which could obliterate a whole solar system no need to make the star go nova like in Trek or SW. although they could do that too. The firepower that is seen in SG does not correlate with the yields in explosives, capabilites to fly near blue giants or anything like that.

Those are all very situational and are based on rudamentary delivery systems which will get shot down before impact. The only reason ST doesnt have bombs that dwarf thing on SG is both in show strategic arms treaties and out of show scaling down of effectiveness of weapons. Darth_Timon mentioned this yet not one has successfully refuted the fact the the Cardassians made a 1000kg M/AM(up to 42,960 megatons) smart weapon, which mean ALL of the other major powers in ST are capable of such or more on a strategic scale and 25%-50% of that output figure on a tactical scale(as in hundreds per ship).

So the final judgement is that SG actual firepower is impossible to really gauge and that as such this thread any Vs thread is a waste of time, my cents...[/QUOTE]
Yea SG is very inconsistant in its diplay of firepower in correlation to the exponentially larger yields they quote and it is half-way a waste of time to try to debate when some people wont admit that obvious truth.

Well according to the Pro Trek side the armor is weaker than tin foil so there...

Who said it was "weaker than tin foil"(relative joke comparison)?
Its pretty strong, albeit unrealistically strong considering physics. I think Kull armor would have to be ablative to even make sense otherwise the energy would be stored in the armor until it cooked the wearer alive, and if it was it would only be temporarily effective(but still better than the other non energy based armor in SG) . Also the mesh that was said to be similar to kevlar would logically not be nearly that effective at dispersing energy safely as the solid torso armor.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

And the facts are there is no shred of proof that Trek ships can defeat Asgard and Ancient technology at all.

I can see you didn't even bother looking at the evidence given by Tetsujin and I.
Asgard shields on the 304s (even with ZPMs) can be defeated by both Ori and Wraith weapons given a relatively small amount of time, (I'll remind you the Wraith brought the Ancient's to their knees) Ori weapons take multiple shots to level a mound of dirt possibly a few hundred meters high at most, yet weapons from the first FTL capable starfleet vessel, with technology that wouldn't even touch a vessel from a few decades later can clearly deliver greater levels of firepower and obliterate a mountain larger than mount Cheyenne, that shows significantly weaker firepower for one of SGs most powerful ships and you say there's no proof, I think you need to open your eyes.

And I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone is just how this kind of debates end up and work to begin with.

In my experience usually the side with the greater weight of evidence wins out and that's what's happened here, you only need to look over the last few pages to see that.

The truth is there is not many Pro SG side posters on this thread here besides myself I stil have to figure that out given the fact this is a Stargate fan forum but besides that there is also the presence of explosives of huge power, such as Naquadria, the dust the Goa'uld tampered a ZPM with which could obliterate a whole solar system no need to make the star go nova like in Trek or SW. although they could do that too.

The reason for that is the facts should speak for themselves.
With regards to your high yield SG weapons look at my questions below and see if those Big f@@@ing Explosives can really be delivered strategically.

The firepower that is seen in SG does not correlate with the yields in explosives, capabilites to fly near blue giants or anything like that.

How many of those weapons actually exist?
How well/quickly can they be delivered to their intended targets?
How easy would it be for the race who's using them to replace them?
Those are all questions you'd need to answer and the fact is none of the super crazy yield weapons (although even the Mark 9 isn't proven to be hundreds of gigatons as some people think it should be) have been shown in high quantities.
In terms of delivering enough firepower for a long enough sustained period of time, well the SG races just couldn't do it and even the most primative of Starfleet's vessels can deliver raw power that far exceeds one of the most powerful races on the show.

As for the blue giant thing, it's been refutted by Tetsujin, the Enterprize D's shields were at a more energy dense region of a Star and who proved using the cirvature of the blue giant that the distance the Ha'Tak was from that Blue giant was quite far.
There's reason to believe the ED was being struck by flares at a very close range to a star (much closer than Daedalus in SGA when it was being powered off of a ZPM in Echoes) in Pegasus.

So the final judgement is that SG actual firepower is impossible to really gauge and that as such this thread any Vs thread is a waste of time, my cents...

Well even at some of it's highest points SG's firepower is never as high as even the more primitive ST ships (BTW I'm talking about ships based weapons, not crazy one off things like the odd ZPM detonation).
In ship vs ship debates ST wins out, as does it in ship numbers which is an important factor in SG.
Before replying to this please read some of the last few pages, check out the evidence given for both sides.
Please don't be swayed one way or another by this or that person's opinions.
That's if you'd like to carry on and actually discuss or debate this issue.
I'm always open to viewing new evidence if there is any, so if you've got anything new to add please show it.

[RJLCyberPunk]

OK let's try this again and for the last time, time and time again in the show they speak of yields that are off the scale, off the rockers if you will but when we see it in action other than the MK9 explosions we do not see the kind of yields spoken in the show but it seems crazy that in a universe with megaexplosives they would not have the means to defend themselves against that. The example about Sokar is another good example, he BDZed a moon and yet if they were to use the yields we have just seen visually it would take them 1000s of years to do that so it makes no sense whatsoever to think that's all they got, But since there is no visual evidence to back any of the dialogue up there is no real way to again gauge the firepower in the show end of story.

[Rise Of The Phoenix]

OK let's try this again and for the last time, time and time again in the show they speak of yields that are off the scale, off the rockers if you will but when we see it in action other than the MK9 explosions we do not see the kind of yields spoken in the show but it seems crazy that in a universe with megaexplosives they would not have the means to defend themselves against that.

We hear the words "multi-gigaton" spoken about the Mark 9, nothing solid is actually given.
When you talk about "off the scale" yields, who's scale are you actually talking about?
More often the visuals in SG are far more common than actual discriptions of what yields those weapons actually have, so why should we take the more regularly displayed evidence and call it the lesser of all evidence?

BTW no one's ever used a Mark 9 against a Ha'tak or Ori mother ships shields, if they are as off the scale as you may believe them to be then you'd have no evidence to actually say whether or not a shield in Stargate could defend against it.

You act like Tetsujin and I don't get your points, I think we do and what I say to counter that is these mega weapons of death are few and far between.
There aren't enough ZPMs to just use them on anything you want and when push comes to shove they can't actually deliver planet destroying power like everyone thinks they're capable of, multiples have to be used to destroy a single Asuran city ship, which is actually shown in SGA, but for some strange reason people always seem to take Carter's speculations about a tanted ZPM and it's capabilties as fact, when she had only just begun working with the technology.
McKay and Zalenka a few years later would be far more experienced to give an assessment of a ZPM's capabilities when it comes to their explosive power.

The example about Sokar is another good example, he BDZed a moon and yet if they were to use the yields we have just seen visually it would take them 1000s of years to do that so it makes no sense whatsoever to think that's all they got, But since there is no visual evidence to back any of the dialogue up there is no real way to again gauge the firepower in the show end of story.

Sokar's example is far to Vague and could have involved multiple ships to achieve the task, I don't even recall it being stated that ships were the only thing used hit Netu, the Goauld have explosives too, they can use Naquadah in many ways.

BTW the example of the NX-01's firepower vs Ori's and their effectiveness against Ha'taks kinda proves that an NX-01 would easily own a Ha'Tak, later vessels in Starfleet and pretty much any other race with FTL capabilities from that universe would too.

I'd be interested to hear what your viewpoints are on Star Trek fleets, remember they number in the thousands for Starfleet, klingons, romulans, dominion I believe were packing tens of thousands and the borg have millions according to voyager.
Even if you said SG was superior in speed (which no one's really arguing against), and you made up that they had greater firepower in ship to ship weapons they'd still lose even if they all combined their forces because they'd be facing millions of ships from the countless hundreds or thousands of races shown over the entirety of ST canon.
Without some deus ex machina and a group of stargates placed over the galaxy (bare in mind ST has it's own uber weapons too) I really don't see how you can argue the win for SG, bring something new please.

Firepower has been gauged as I've shown above.

[RJLCyberPunk]

We hear the words "multi-gigaton" spoken about the Mark 9, nothing solid is actually given.
When you talk about "off the scale" yields, who's scale are you actually talking about?
More often the visuals in SG are far more common than actual discriptions of what yields those weapons actually have, so why should we take the more regularly displayed evidence and call it the lesser of all evidence?

BTW no one's ever used a Mark 9 against a Ha'tak or Ori mother ships shields, if they are as off the scale as you may believe them to be then you'd have no evidence to actually say whether or not a shield in Stargate could defend against it.

You act like Tetsujin and I don't get your points, I think we do and what I say to counter that is these mega weapons of death are few and far between.
There aren't enough ZPMs to just use them on anything you want and when push comes to shove they can't actually deliver planet destroying power like everyone thinks they're capable of, multiples have to be used to destroy a single Asuran city ship, which is actually shown in SGA, but for some strange reason people always seem to take Carter's speculations about a tanted ZPM and it's capabilties as fact, when she had only just begun working with the technology.
McKay and Zalenka a few years later would be far more experienced to give an assessment of a ZPM's capabilities when it comes to their explosive power.



Sokar's example is far to Vague and could have involved multiple ships to achieve the task, I don't even recall it being stated that ships were the only thing used hit Netu, the Goauld have explosives too, they can use Naquadah in many ways.

BTW the example of the NX-01's firepower vs Ori's and their effectiveness against Ha'taks kinda proves that an NX-01 would easily own a Ha'Tak, later vessels in Starfleet and pretty much any other race with FTL capabilities from that universe would too.

I'd be interested to hear what your viewpoints are on Star Trek fleets, remember they number in the thousands for Starfleet, klingons, romulans, dominion I believe were packing tens of thousands and the borg have millions according to voyager.
Even if you said SG was superior in speed (which no one's really arguing against), and you made up that they had greater firepower in ship to ship weapons they'd still lose even if they all combined their forces because they'd be facing millions of ships from the countless hundreds or thousands of races shown over the entirety of ST canon.
Without some deus ex machina and a group of stargates placed over the galaxy (bare in mind ST has it's own uber weapons too) I really don't see how you can argue the win for SG, bring something new please.

Firepower has been gauged as I've shown above.

*Sigh* It was not the ZPM that was explosive but the dust covering it for the last, last time! Watch the episode again if you do not believe me. A single speckle of that dust when electrically charged exploded like a firecracker's worth of gunpowder that is a single dust element just a few microns across now imagine what a lot of that supergunpowder could do.

[anaberration]

So both the Star Trek vessel and Stargate vessels both have "transporter" technology, so the Trek vessel beams tribbles on the Stargate vessel and the Stargate vessel beams
Replicators onto the Trek vessel ? Doesnt seem quite fair does it ?

[boxdudea]

So I see that there is no hope for the Stargate universe to win?

[anaberration]

So I see that there is no hope for the Stargate universe to win?

? Huh ?