SG universe vs Species 8472 had to be done

[Crazy Tom]

most ships can't approach c in normal space and there's no way the promie is capable of 6c in normal space. remember that the zpm powered aurora only was able to get to .9 c.

Max speed would still be well below light speed in normal space otherwise they would encounter severe time dilation effects as they approach closer to light sleep and since the replicators don’t have warp technology, there’s a limit to how fast they can travel in normal space. Replicators might be timeless but they're still not immune to the effects of time dilation.

No man, this is canon, AKA: stated on screen. Wach "Promethius" again and weep.

Now what you seem to be ingnoring MacTX is the TDD, again. Look at it this way, if we have information ahead of time that 8472 wil invade and even if we don't, regardless of where, we could deposit the replis on a planet and have them activate teh TDD within a few minuites in real space we have a baren hulk of rock witl all useful resources depleted, billions of ships. All equiped with TDDs teh go out and each take another palnet, within an hour you have an army numbering well into the trilions of ships.

[MacTX]

The human brain is not primitive. Admitedly, he wasn't very talkative, but when you look at his behaviour, it wasn't much different than this silent asuran the Wraith kept captive for study.
That said, it didn't appear more zombie than any Borg drone.

IOA guy was still more or less a puppet.

A... "lack of understanding of the biological realm"? since when? Their verry first great leap of evolution, ten of thousand years ago, after their genesis, was to mimic their creators on all points. They were never programmed to be humans. They observed, learned, understood and replicated.

Something happened between the Asurans and the bugs. Some code was erased, different models were chosen, but when it came to make human models, they were there. Ultimately, if their first generation managed to do it, there's nothing telling they can't replicate this feature.

They replicate the human appearance nothing more and in the 10,000 yrs haven’t changed in that respect. They may look human but that’s where the similarities end. The wraiths are superior humanoids biologically yet they ignore that. If they were truly human or even truly understood human biology they also wouldn’t have been compromised by one. There’s just no excuse for that.

They are going to fight. They will be where S8472 is. I see no evidence that S8472 hull can resist bugs which have been piercing and eating hulls known to be particularily strong, without shields.
I'm talking about different alloys of naqahdah, trinium, carbon and so on. At the end, they can even recompose neutronium.
Get real, they will eat through S8472 ships in no time flat.

And I see no evidence that the hull wouldn’t. You’ve given proof that they can eat through alloy, nothing more and even than using their acid to break it down.

Excuse me, the Alterans did evolve, and they developped a full range of psychic powers which I don't remember the S8472 having safe eventually a telepathic link, which the Wraith do at much greater ranges.

I was referring to beyond that. If the ancients had millions or even billions more year (and if their physical bodies had evolved) and if ascension didn’t existed. However far the ancients evolve, their bodies were still relatively weak. The wraith took an evolutionary path more like that of 8472, strengthening and developing their physical body.
Remember that 8472 was the apex of biological evolution in the ST universe where ascension doesn’t exist.

You openly ignore what I already pointed out:

1. Daniel still had some bits of ascended mind in his brain, and Replicarter was actually capable of unlocking it. The amount of data was so great that all of her brethren which react in microseconds needed minutes and minutes to assimilate an extremely negligible amount of the data Daniel held.
Daniel used the fact that Replicarter and her pals were dedicating a lot of their power to assimilation to take control of them. For a very short time. Once Daniel's barrier was broken and once enough data sunk, the replicators regained control of themselves.
Daniel was extremely special, unless you want to argue that a normal human could control advanced machines billion times more powerful, with a computing power that surpases any human brain, and that over a whole galaxy, while holding an amount of data from ascended planes that literally baffled the replicators.
The thing is, Oma's act may have been a ploy all along, and fooled the Others is making them believe that Daniel was entirely downgraded to his original form. Which he was not. The Daniel of season 7 was not the one we had for five seasons before, and apparently not the one we had later. This one was much like a locked alteran in power. Even Orlin, downgraded and all that jazz, to hold enough data to defeat the Ori, had to be in a young body, and progressively died of this.
2. Any event that involves the asurans is biased for the simple fact that those replicators are limited by code on various levels.
Besides, Weir had help from nanites.

It still shows a sever weakness on their part. Both Daniel and Weir are able to control countless replicators in their respective situations. Daniel doing it with advance knowledge and weir doing it through will… the nanites in her body were the means to interfacing with the asurans. In Mortal Coil it was said that she was killed because when she linked with the asurans the human part of her exerted an unhealthy influence. A race of machines with pretty much total knowledge on humans…. This shouldn’t happen yet it did.

To reshape alloys requires to break them down beforehand.
And while this could be understood as merely heating them up until they become pure and maleable, to reshape an element with such ease at the nanoscale requires a technology and a power that is extremely advanced.
Even more when we're speaking about neutronium.

The asgard are able to reshape varying alloys including neutronium… the Tauri and Gould can do similar things though probably not as advanced as the Asgard. It’s not like reshaping alloys is an exclusive trait of the replicators. Granted they are more efficient at it. How is it spectacular that an advanced race is able to reshape alloys… it’s as spectacular as a biological being able to grow or repair limbs using materials and energy from the food they consume.

At first hand, yes, they disabled them. Then later on, season 8, they were simply invisible to internal sensors even before starting to eat anything.
S8472 can't be precisely observed by tricorders, but their energy signature or what have you can be noticed. They radiate something which tricorders can pick. Final replicators do nothing of the sort.
We're talking about asgard sensors you know, literally the best you get to be able to scan something and beam it elsewhere without loosing a single particle.

It was never conclusively stated that they were immune to Asgard scanners. Otherwise the block missle wouldn’t show up on asgard sensors if they were able to block or absorb scans. Obviously the asgard sensors were able to detect the blocks up to the point of the impact with the ship. After which, Thor mentioned that he couldn’t track them.
Bio-electricity which if I remember correctly the tricorder was having problems with as well. They could pickup that something was near but was never able to pinpoint it. It also interfered with transporter scanners. It’s like some sort of scattering field.
No offensive but asgard sensors are nothing out of the ordinary and the ability to scan something and beam it from point A to B also doesn’t make it unique.

Those in Enemies were not the final replicators, and for the second case, it's an asuran, which even the Wraith could deactivate in the past. No one has found a way to deactivate those which conquered Ida and attacked the Milky Way. The only key was Reese, and it didn't work that well.

Spoiler:

the Tauri seemed to have in AOT. They made their very own spider programmed to do their bidding

The replicators' main problem is that they concentrate on reproduction, numbers, and anything else is secondary.
They're often single minded, in the sense that they don't exploit all their abilities everytime. For 99.9% of cases, that makes no difference at all, since what they use is always more than enough.
But for example, they have not really incorporated the principle of ranged weapons to a large scale. I mean, all that they have fired is either weapons which already existed on ships they took control of, or that replicator missile, which wasn't made in the goal of destroying but capturing.
That's in fact their whole mantra, as a whole, to capture more than destroy.
We have not seen them compose big bugs equipped with energy cannons, while we know it would be absolutely trivial to do.
That said, solely with what they use and their by default abilities, they have more than enough to take on S8472.

That’s the problem I have with them. Using what we know of the races from their respective series, the odds are against the replicators. They are limited and their limit would be their downfall. They are the ones shooting themselves in the foot.
To expand on what’s already shown in the series wouldn’t do much good either... since 8472 is basically a blank page, pretty much anything can be made up about them to counteract the replicators. The replicators would also be more confined because of what we already do know about them.

They blast planets apart. The matter is still there. Besides, S8472 are not going to blast all planets. They don't have enough time and resources to do so. In the end, it would be pointless. Replicators don't need planets.
They just need metals.

The Borg planet blew up, it wasn’t simply blasted into chunks; it was destroyed. The explosion sent out a destructive shockwave which looked even more inclusive than the one from Asuras. Asuras looked like a combination of destruction and planet breaking into pieces and even that was enough to destroy the asurans. The Aurora sensors confirmed this.
It didn’t seem to stop them in their fight with the Borg. They didn’t seem to think it was pointless. They destroyed 100 planets within hours… they don’t seem to be lacking in resources. This isn’t their realm remember, as far as they are concerned everything here is expendable.

Yes, as they do it by nature. They don't "have to".
Besides, they already have numbers.

We are still talking about the replicators from Stargate right? They would still need time and raw materials to develop their numbers.
I was only thinking of 1000’s of bioships (as that was what was mention in Trek) but if you want to be speculative as far as size, we might as well say an initial invasion force of billions of bioships and millions of planet destroyers with reinforcements constantly coming in? if we are going to be speculative, that’s well within reason for such a race especially with single pilot ships and the entirety of fluidic space is theres.

Maybe you think that S8472 will be able to strike anywhere, with full resources, and think the replicators would have only one ship, but that's not what happens.
On equal terms, with full resources, the replicators have depopulated Ida and are almost about to control all of the Milky Way galaxy.
S8472 have nothing to match the industrial might of Von Neumann machines with a voracious appetite for neutronium snacks.

That’s still small numbers… I’m going by what we’ve seen in the series. When thor set that trap, he called forth every replicator (the ones descended from reeces toys) to come forth, which was only enough to fill a planet and they had been replicating for countless years (from when reece first set them loose + the 100's of yrs they had in the field). That’s not impressive by any stretch of the imagination. You are trying to tell me that they would instantly have large numbers out of nowhere even though nothing we’ve seen will back that up.

8472 sent 1000’s of ships to destroy the Borg and probably would have done it if Voyager hadn’t interfered. If that was just the invasion force, the amount of ships they have must be massive. They’re small, powerful and only need one pilot.

[Crazy Tom]

(wow, must be a long argument if it takes this long to type up)

[MacTX]

Indeed. Their weapons are more complex and tactically sound, but in raw firepower, the Goa'uld cripple them. I've been around enough to get a good spectrum of all estimations, and at best, the most powerful weapons of the UFP rates around 100 Mt, and that's for torpedoes they fire by small volleys and with limited stocks. Combat ha'taks come with between 12 or 32 heavy cannons, each capable of 200 MT shots.

You’re just regurgitating specs and it’s a pity the claims aren’t supported onscreen because if those were in fact 200MT cannons, it definitely doesn’t show it onscreen.

This is achieved only by using planet busters helped by normal ships to obtain a beam. Stargate forces as a whole have never shown the will to destroy planets, safe the Tok'ra, once, and it took them nothing more than a device smaller than a baby coffin to blow a big moon.
Ah, and Anubis.

That’s their loss I guess.
The only reason for the 8472 planet busters was the writers wanted to show how far the species was willing to go and from the looks of it, they’re willing to go far.

With the slight difference that they made those re-creations after seeing that brute force didn't work. Therefore, their first waves will be using brute force, and do so as long as it works.

actually their first wave was only because of being attacked by the Borg (remember the Borg invaded their space and started the war). You could call it retaliation. 8472 seems to be a very calculative and rational race the last time they’re seen on Voyager.
The recreation of earth was done with the purpose of dealing with earth and since they didn’t know much about it, they wanted to gather intel... that was the whole reason for the recreation, to infiltrate earth and learn more about this species that helped the Borg. As far as they knew, the humans were a dangerous race because Voyager had weapons capable of killing them.

it didn’t involve the Borg so I don’t agree with you about it being a second attempt because brute force didn’t work.

Oh yes it will. Just check out the replicators' latest invasion, and see how fast they grew in numbers. Considering that you take the S8472 at their height, the same applies to the replicators, which means slightly before the Dakara device got used.
At that point, they attacked a whole galaxy at once.

That wasn’t very many if you want to use that as your reference point. The fleet they had at dakara couldn’t have been more than 100 and that’s being generous.

8472 invaded Borg space with 1000’s of ships and there’s no telling how many ships they have in total as they do control an entire realm.

Because the standard replicators weren't the ones we know now. They have kept being knocked off by higher technologies developped by the Asgards, up to the point where they absorbed enough of it to resist them.

that would be a good excuse for why their numbers were so small from the time reece started their race to the time just before they encountered the Asgard. It’s still not an excuse for after they encountered the asgard.

Based on what? On the size of things they can destroy? Then I think stars qualify as slightly bigger than planets.

Based on how they fought the Borg and how an injured member of their race fought the Hirogen. The asgard had trouble keeping the gould in line and they’re not exactly the model of physical prowess.

[MacTX]

No man, this is canon, AKA: stated on screen. Wach "Promethius" again and weep.

Now what you seem to be ingnoring MacTX is the TDD, again. Look at it this way, if we have information ahead of time that 8472 wil invade and even if we don't, regardless of where, we could deposit the replis on a planet and have them activate teh TDD within a few minuites in real space we have a baren hulk of rock witl all useful resources depleted, billions of ships. All equiped with TDDs teh go out and each take another palnet, within an hour you have an army numbering well into the trilions of ships.

So are you going on the record and saying the X303 can travel 6 times the speed of light in normal space? Keep in mind that hyperspace is not in normal space. If that’s what you’re saying, which part of that episode did you want me to watch? I definitely have to watch it since if you are right, the writers truly did screw up if a zpm powered aurora piloted by the ancients can only manage .9 the speed of light in normal space.

TDD doesn’t just grow on trees. And your plan would take time to actually prepare and deploy. If 8472 was to actually invade, there wouldn’t be advanced notice not to mention the threat wouldn’t be initially known as well as nothing of 8472 would be known.

Not to mention it’s extremely out of character for the Tauri since why exactly haven’t they done this with the wraith/Michael?

[MacTX]

(wow, must be a long argument if it takes this long to type up)

The hard part is the whole separation of quotes from rebuttal... getting it all organized in this tiny window is a pain.

[Crazy Tom]

So are you going on the record and saying the X303 can travel 6 times the speed of light in normal space? Keep in mind that hyperspace is not in normal space. If that’s what you’re saying, which part of that episode did you want me to watch? I definitely have to watch it since if you are right, the writers truly did screw up if a zpm powered aurora piloted by the ancients can only manage .9 the speed of light in normal space.

TDD doesn’t just grow on trees. And your plan would take time to actually prepare and deploy. If 8472 was to actually invade, there wouldn’t be advanced notice not to mention the threat wouldn’t be initially known as well as nothing of 8472 would be known.

Not to mention it’s extremely out of character for the Tauri since why exactly haven’t they done this with the wraith/Michael?

Sorry i keep forgeting to add the decimals before the number. It at the beginig where Carter is in teh engine room i think explaining somehting.

I'm sure the IOA hove soemhting like this somewhere. Their always palning for the worst, as for TDDs, hand teh blueprints ove tto the Reps and let them make them.

[Crazy Tom]

The hard part is the whole separation of quotes from rebuttal... getting it all organized in this tiny window is a pain.

That's why i just nimber them.

[MacTX]

Sorry i keep forgeting to add the decimals before the number. It at the beginig where Carter is in teh engine room i think explaining somehting.

I'm sure the IOA hove soemhting like this somewhere. Their always palning for the worst, as for TDDs, hand teh blueprints ove tto the Reps and let them make them.

Sorry to burst your bubbles but she said ½ the speed of light, not 6c (6 times the speed of light) like you said.

Still out of character. While the whole Pegasus was falling to Michael… what do they do... pull back to Atlantis and sit it out.

Blocks more than likely can’t build one. All of their stuff seems to all be centered on the block. An Asuran probably could.

[MacTX]

That's why i just nimber them.

Which, for the record, is really annoying because it makes it that much more difficult to remember what exactly you're referring to.

[Crazy Tom]

Sorry to burst your bubbles but she said ½ the speed of light, not 6c (6 times the speed of light) like you said.

Still out of character. While the whole Pegasus was falling to Michael… what do they do... pull back to Atlantis and sit it out.

Blocks more than likely can’t build one. All of their stuff seems to all be centered on the block. An Asuran probably could.

But the MW build human forms also, so there's no reasin they can't make one.
Half the sped of light, .6c close enough, you still get a lot of destructive kinetic energy.

Which, for the record, is really annoying because it makes to that much more difficult to remember what exactly you're referring to.

Sorry

[Daryl Froggy]

I had a rathe ridiculous thought.

If Species 8472 is indeed from a universe where things that are physically impossible here are possible then how can they exist and beat us up here in this universe?

I mean really think about it how is it possible?

[Crazy Tom]

Lets' not forget that they live in a liquid universe that should have by al rights colapsed due to gravity.

[Daryl Froggy]

So how are they able to exist in our universe? Much less do so extremely well.

[Crazy Tom]

So how are they able to exist in our universe? Much less do so extremely well.

De writers dimd it so.