stargate V.S borg

[SG66]

the borg and the SG univers all have differnt advantages and disadvantages.

the borg have a lot in thir corner, including the massive hive mind that could make understanding new technlogy go a lot faster, their drones also have the ability to adpt to phaser fire, which is useless in the SG universe, unless it can be used to render zats and staff weapons useless, we don't know ifit will. the borg also have large cube numbers, which themselves are very powerful. their size alone gives them time to adjust their weapons to fight a new enemy. what the borg have as a disadvantage is that they have no defense aginst projectile weapons, making their drones easy killing. their ships also have no shields making damaging it easy, but as we've seen in first contact, the cube was so big that even though the federation was damaging the ship, they were still getting owned because it takes a long time for the damage to accumulate enough to hinder the borg. also, the borg have no idea how to use the stargate network, they may figure it out if they are intereested, but we don't know if they will be. the stargate network gives us the advantgae to attack the borg anytime we want.

for the SG universe, we are used to dealing with insurmountable odds, making us sharpen our minds to come up with solutions. also, we have the asgard beams, we don'tknow how effective they will be but i guess pretty effective. i agree with the above post that hataks would have a hard time fighting a single cube. the ships have not changed for thousands of years, why other races continue to advance. however, even though a majority of the races have the resouces to hurt the borg, we are still vastly outnumbered and would lose if the borg change their normal stradegy. however, if we did what has happened in the ark of truth, spoilers:

Spoiler:

we could send a large number of replicators to attack at once, that is one of the only ways to trule hurt the borg, because the replicators can replicate faster then the borg can, in numbers at least. so they can potentially stand on equal ground and work towards an advantage, something most other SG races cannot do

.

sorry if my spelling is not the best.

[TheAccended]

Everyone keeps saying the Borg have no defense against projectile weapons because of what they saw during First Contact, that is only partially true. The Borg had no defense against Phasers until they were used against them at least once. The projectile weapon only worked that time was because the Federation had not used that type of weapon against them before so they did not expect it. Now that the Federation has used that tactic, the same thing will not work again because they will have factored that variable in. With the Borg the same strategies will not work more than a few times before you they can predict your moves, you have to keep changing tactics to stay ahead of them. That is why any new ship in the ST have weapons that auto rotate to keep them from blocking the weapon, but even that tactic has its limits.

When severed from the main collective the drones have but three functions. To establish a new collective, increase in number and re-establish their link with the hive mind. As for the Borg Queen, she is the Hive mind. As it was put during First Contact she is the Borg and the Borg are her, you could say that she is the manifestation of the Borg collective concisenesses. As long as even one drone lives she can revive herself over and over again. To truly kill her you have to take out the whole Hive Mind.

The greatest weakness of the Replicators is that they are only as strong as what they are made of.

[SG66]

you have a good point. i never thought of the borg queen that that way, but as for projectile weapons, i don't really think the borg could block it. and if they could, it wouldn't be on first meeting the SGC. the reason is because the first time they encountered them, in first contact, they were in the past and that information was never shared with the main collective because of it. so the SGC would have the momentary advantage, thats assuming the borg can adapt to block projectile weapons.

as for the replicators, we could give them the auto distruct code used in AOT, and have them built using basic mateirals, that way they will look at the borg as a rump roast of tasty tech.

[jhkplaya888]

you have a good point. i never thought of the borg queen that that way, but as for projectile weapons, i don't really think the borg could block it. and if they could, it wouldn't be on first meeting the SGC. the reason is because the first time they encountered them, in first contact, they were in the past and that information was never shared with the main collective because of it. so the SGC would have the momentary advantage, thats assuming the borg can adapt to block projectile weapons.

as for the replicators, we could give them the auto distruct code used in AOT, and have them built using basic mateirals, that way they will look at the borg as a rump roast of tasty tech.

the borg have personal shields i think

[MacTX]

A Bioship could barely damage an Intrepid class exploration ships shields. They also did no more damage to a Cubes hull than the Enterprise D in that first encounter. We saw nothing to indicate a superior tech base, merely a weapon the Borg couldn't adapt to...and an unwillingness on their part to use normal shields to compensate. Voyager could deflect the beam yet Borg ships took every hit on the chin. How does their technology being "biologically enhanced" make it superior? especially considering their exploited weakness.

To be specific, we actually don’t see anything specifically related to tech with 8472. Their technology is so well blended into their biology that the distinction between the two isn’t readily apparent.

A weapon able to destroy a planet is inferior in your eyes? Yet to you Gould canons that often just scorch a tiny area of a planet surface are more advanced? I know this is a Stargate forum, but the balance of power and amount of objectivity given to the sides is ridiculous.

Maybe federation ships and shields are stronger than you give them credit. On the other hand, every race in the ST universe is weak/inferior/ not as advanced as SG races according to you… to which I’m still waiting for actual proof to.

I wouldn’t exactly say Voyager went away from it scot free. The first time they encountered a short burst from the beam it knocked them around, the shields took the brunt of the impact, but it still jolted them. The next time they encountered the beam, it almost disabled them. If it weren’t for the Cube, they would have been shortly destroyed. It was a repeat performance in fluid space. I’m not sure normal shields would have worked either against 8472’s beam, the first Voyager impact being the only one where we actually see shield impact… all subsequent impacts we see is directly to the hull even though supposedly voyager is fully operational during those impacts as well.

It makes their technology immune to the Borg, without the biological enhancements, their technology would have become as useless as federation tech against the Borg after some time. I wouldn’t exactly call the modified nano-probes a weakness for 8472, a hindrance maybe. It would have been more of a weakness if said nano-probes were able to assimilate 8472 rather than denature. Let’s not forget that they are given voyager’s research on the modified nano-probes the last time they showed up on Voyager. Until we see them again, it’s unclear if that exploit still exists.

The Ori and Replicators were beaten by wonder toys, different scenario. They weren't being militarily crushed by an inferior power. Ship speed is extremely important, as it would allow Gate races to determine when and where a fight takes place, putting the Borg on the defensive.

The Ori wasn’t exactly beaten, more like they just withdrew. The replicators were beaten by technology. You may call it wonder toys but when it comes down to it, it’s still technology. Once again, I ask how ship speed is important if you are fighting an enemy like the Borg. I’m still waiting for evidence on this. This isn’t stargate races vs. federation, romulans, or klingons remember.

The junk they give the Jaffa hasn't changed, but their fleet technolgies had improved over time. As for the Asgard we don't know what they were capable of pre-Replicators. Anubis tweaked his shields with knowledge from a race superior to the Asgard, how is that underwhelming? The majority of Trek races are at similar levels of technology, some a bit behind, others a little ahead. They've never had to face off against foes with a commanding superiority (like one shot kills or wank shielding) and scramble to avoid annihilation.

Improved in which ways? The main hatak is still the same, while the flagship hataks that Anubis and Apohis used is pretty much a relic of the past. Lowly humans who a decade ago could never hope to challenge the Gould have rendered the Gould obsolute. Sure, they might have stolen or were given tech but it still remains that over that decade, they’ve continually advanced, painfully at times. Staff weapons haven’t changed in how long? How do you suppose they fight the Borg with zats and staff weapons which would be rendered useless relatively quickly? Are they to rely on the tauri for all their weapons? At that point, we’ll left to the zombie principal, more drones to take out than you have bullets to do it with.

Did you not pay attention during the dominion war? Plenty of examples of one shot kills from all sides, just because every ship is not capable doesn’t mean the races don’t have powerful warships with the capabilities. It also doesn't degrade the defense abilities of the ships. Just because a ship have weapons that can cut through another ship at full power doesn't necessarily mean said weapon will be used at full power all the time. Most of the races in ST are not war hungry barbarians remember. I’d never thought I’d see cardassian galor class phaser cannons ripping through Federation ships like a hot knife through butter, but I did. These same races (most of which are probably close enough to the same technological level) have been fighting one another for centuries. Of course they would have similar level tech. If a neighboring race is pulling ahead of you and is allowed to get further, there’s a good chance your race won’t be around for long if you’re not able to catch up. That’s the beautiful of a dense region of space and conflict. This doesn’t really exist in SG and the few times we see it happen, it’s often times one sided with the race dragging behind not being able to catch up and being annihilated.

They lost to an enemy that could consistently take over their systems, regardless of technology level or familiarity, improve it, and turn it against them. The Borg have shown limitations in all those endeavors. As well as a complete inability to adapt their combat tactics.

That’s still not an excuse. The replicators still used their technology against them. The Borg would use both their technology and their comrades against them. Limitation being 8472 or were you referring to someone else? The last time I checked, there was no race even close to them in existence in SG. I don’t really think the Borg have any combat abilities. The only thing I’ve seen is adaption which I wouldn’t exactly call combat abilities. The core of their mission is assimilating races and their technology. When they encountered armored voyager for the first time, they tried their standard attack, after that failed, they scanned the ship and tried to adapt by targeting a single point in the armor which was fairly successful (as armor integrity was surprisingly quickly falling) before voyager launched the transphasic torpedoes and the queen called off the attack. As many torpeodes as Voyager had, it wouldn't have survivd if the queen had sent every ship in the nebula after them. In a combat situation with the SG races… adapting to your enemy’s defense/offense will probably be a bit more advantageous than just flying around firing your static weapons.

The Trek races do control more planets and all have vastly larger populations than the major Gate players. None of which matters since their confined to a single area and can be targeted at will. A superpower is one that can deploy military, economic, and political force anywhere it wants at anytime.

Which the individual races can do within their respective territory and neighboring race’s territory. Lets not forget these races have large amounts of people and ships deployed throughout their respective territories. If there’s an incursion on the outskirts of Romulan space, the Romulans aren’t going to be sending ships all the way from Romulaus, ships nearby would be re-deployed for the task. They’re not the Gould remember. It still doesn’t degrade the combat abilities of their military fleet does it? If speed was everything, the Federation would have been assimilated LONG ago. This still doesn’t have any bearing on a race like the Borg through.

Replicators absorb raw energy fired at them. Drones and Cubes use a form of shielding to deflect frequency weapons. Completely different systems. I mention hacking cause its what the Replicators do, they take control of a computer system and rewrite it to work for them. Most Trek computers seem completely unprotected, as we've also seen with Voyager accessing Borg databases without effort. The Replicators would likely do the same and I'd consider that a strategic advantage.

It’s still energy weapons. ST just goes into more techno babble. Drones/cubes having the ability to shield against energy weapons as well as varying spectrums of the same weapon is no different than the replicators vs ARG tech. Since standard SG weapons seem to be confined to the same spectrum (or you could call it form), wouldn’t that make them more ripe for Borg adaptation? The basic for frequency adaption by the Federation after all is pretty much to keep changing so the Borg don’t adapt to it. The closest thing to this are the Anti replicator weapons and those aren’t so easily changed/rotated.

Yes, they consumed two races who contributed nothing of material value to the Borg. The Queens personal views may differ.

Which is your opinion although in this case, the queens opinion would hold more weight, unless you’re secretly a Borg queen?

It shows limitations in their vaunted assimilation and adaptive techniques, which so many here assume can instantly take over anything in Gate verse. We've seen Data compromised in the past, yet the Borg couldn't access his cyber brain. We've seen the Borg struggle with enhanced immune systems, yet everyone assumes they'll assimilate every gate species with ease. They've shown several limitations that people simply gloss over.

It just shows that something sufficiently different from normal humanoid can be more resistance, nothing else. Aside from reece, argo, and the human form replicators, what other race is like data? There is no race even near that of 8472. Beyond that, it’s just standard humanoids throughout SG ‘verse which the Borg don't have a problem with (keeping in mind that ascended beings aren’t being included for obvious reasons). The only race remotely unique is the wraith and they’re just slightly unique with enhanced regenerative abilities and unique feeding abilities.

Compromised by his creator and another of his kind… is that what you meant? He’s been turned off a few times by Doctor Crusher. Turning him off or destroying him isn’t something difficult. His creator obviously would have the ability to force him to do things beyond his will. Lore only had the ability to persuade him to do his bidding.

[MacTX]

One episode was with the Iconian probe. Accessed and disabled ships systems with just a transmission. Destroyed the Yamato, and even an entire Romulan ship was infected by just listening in on a communication. I believe a Borg vinculum, possibly the most important device on their ships, was also infected and spread throughout the Borg ship and drones without any difficulty. The point is their computers seem to have zilch security.

Both examples of non locked down computer cores… which is what the borg couldn’t break through during First Contact and the only reason they needed it was to gain access to enterprise E since their own ship was destroyed, otherwise they would have no need for the ship.

How are replicator computer systems anymore secure? How many times has the wraith or Mckay hacked into it? I’ve lost count. And both of those people ALTERED the base code to their desire. Not exactly the role model for security is it. If someone with that kind of intel were to be assimilated, the replicators would be at a sever disadvantage.

So if they assimilate someone with the knowledge...an assembly line to build hyperdrives, as well as the raw materials required, just suddenly falls into their laps as well? Or do you think replicators can produce anything with the push of a button? I said the Borg could build them, but they're going to need time...having blueprints is nice, but establishing the capacity to build the design is not an immediate process. Nor is it known if it'll work just flawlessly with existing Borg systems and power generation.

You completely ignore the Borg’s entire culture base and their entire reason for being. You still think of them in terms of the Gould or any other race scavenging for technology.
Their entire civilization is centered on acquiring technology and integrating it into their own if it can somehow enhanced what they already have. Everything about them is centered towards that goal, from their assimilation technology, to the drones, to their ships. They are unlike any normal humanoid race. Once they have the technology and the knowledge, it’s a matter of replicating it and implementing which their entire civilization is geared towards doing. Time is also a relative term to the Borg; they’re not setup in the normal fashion like other races. The drones all work in concert to achieve their goals. Efficiency may not be as high as the replicators (since the drones do need to regenerate) but it’s probably extremely close.

[MacTX]

Drones attack the way they do on purpose. Unlike the replicators pre Repli-Carter, the Borg adapt their technology based both on assimilation and experience. The more Drones and cubes you have to destroy the quicker the Borg will gain an understanding of your weapons technology and be able to find a way to counter it. Its the same problem the Federation had, devise a new weapon use it on a few drones and then it becomes useless. You have to constantly out think them and change your own strategy to stay 2-3 steps ahead.

Before the human form replicators the bugs had to consume the technology before they became immune to it. After human form reps were created they could just experience the weapon just as the Borg do, process the data and make them selves immune to it, just at the Asurans did with the ARW's in SG Atlantis. The Replicator Hive mind is the same as the Borg Hive mind, trillions of individuals working towards a single goal. So it would boil down to who could out think the other first.

To the Borg, Drones as well as ships are expendable if it helps their goal much like individual replicators are expendiable to the replicators.

The greatest weakness of the Replicators is that they are only as strong as what they are made of.

And that they can be reprogrammed relatively easily (or more specifically given new directives to their base code) with those changes automatically distributed to the rest of the replicators.

Reprogramming a few Borg’s isn’t hard but doing it on a collective scale is far harder.

you have a good point. i never thought of the borg queen that that way, but as for projectile weapons, i don't really think the borg could block it. and if they could, it wouldn't be on first meeting the SGC. the reason is because the first time they encountered them, in first contact, they were in the past and that information was never shared with the main collective because of it. so the SGC would have the momentary advantage, thats assuming the borg can adapt to block projectile weapons.

The only pieces to the puzzle we do have is we know the Borg have problems with new strategies (which Picard firing a tommy gun at the drones was) and we know they have energy shielding and also that energy shielding in the Star Trek universe (including Borg shields) can repel energy and physical matter. What we don’t know is if the incident of First Contact was a one off or if it would work indefinitely. The answer to that question will remain a mystery until we see another bullet usage against the Borg in ST.

[SG66]

thats true, we will never know if the drones can adpat until we see more bullets attacking borg. but since all races in ST rely on energy weapons, i doubt we'll ever see it. (which is a shame, cause i would really like an officail answere to the question).

and while the borg drones do have personal adaption shields, i wonder, is there an actual limit to their shields, or will they adapt to all energy weapons. if they are able to adapt to all energy weapons, wouldn't that make them god like?

[jhkplaya888]

maybe the furlings will be like the borg

[SG66]

but the furlings were wiped out. if they are like the borg, then that dosen't say much about the borg.

[MacTX]

thats true, we will never know if the drones can adpat until we see more bullets attacking borg. but since all races in ST rely on energy weapons, i doubt we'll ever see it. (which is a shame, cause i would really like an officail answere to the question).

and while the borg drones do have personal adaption shields, i wonder, is there an actual limit to their shields, or will they adapt to all energy weapons. if they are able to adapt to all energy weapons, wouldn't that make them god like?

It's uncertain as the drone shield is a strange thing. it's doesn't seem like a shield in the conventional sense otherwise nothing would get through whether they've adapted to it or not.

[carter fanboy]

my thoughts: earths allies; well, if we're crossing franchises here, as i love to do, we have both unit and torchwood on our side. unit has over 30 years experience of dealing with this kind of threat. torchwood, as we saw in the xmas invasion, has access to a 'superlaser', similar to the death star. our armaments; staff weapons will get a few shots in before the borg adapt, zats will probably have more effect, but i believe projectile weapons will be most effective because borg shields were not designed with these in mind.( jack harkness' villengard-produced digital blaster may have some effectiveness, assuming it is fully-charged!) most ships will be near-useless opposed to borg cubes or spheres, due to size and firepower being greatly superior to ours. we would hold our own, maybe even have the goa'uld on our side for a time; 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend!'.

[Col. Matarrese]

not so sure, Federation uses matter/antimatter (=> vacuum energy) and Romulans use quantum singularities, etc. both are extremely powerful methods of generating energy, so the borg no doubt have power-generation capabilities that at least match those of the other main MW races (at least those whose tech they've assimilmated, and it's quite possible they've assimilated at least one scientist of every MW race)


SG's best chance would be if the borg could not adapt to the asgard weapons, then again since it took an alien species from another universe for the borg to fail to adapt, that is doubtful

maybe there's a chance if the beam weapons were directly tied into a zpm - zero-point energy still "feels" a notch above what the trekkie races have so it could work. on the other hand Federation quantum torpedos are also supposed to use zpe (though that was in an ST game so I'm not sure if it's canon -)

See, the matter/antimatter reaction never made sense to me...to create antimatter, you have to use as much energy out as you will eventually get out of it, so doesn't that make it ineffective as an energy-production method?

[jhkplaya888]

but the furlings were wiped out. if they are like the borg, then that dosen't say much about the borg.

the furlings are wiped out?

[Mister Oragahn]

One or two superpowers per galaxy isn’t an actual achievement especial if said superpower doesn’t have any competition in their respective galaxy. At the first signs of competition, said superpower crumble like sand (like what happen with the Asgard and the Gould when the replicators invaded their respective galaxies).

That competition, as you call it, can *****slap many advanced SF civilizations, even outside of Stargate verse.
It's like saying the USA is not a super power cause when angry God comes, there's no competition.

A race whos technology doesn’t change in thousands of years is doom towards annihilation by a competing race that enters the territory.

It's a common misconception.
The Goa'uld never evolved because they quite largely enjoyed their position under Ra's rule. It's even said at some point in late SG-1, I think in season 8, that the acts of the Tau'ri forced the Goa'uld to abandon ways they've been used to for something like five millenia iirc.
Still, the Tau'ri never defeated the Goa'uld.
You completely forget, rather conveniently I suppose, that when most Goa'uld forces were under Anubis' control, had we not have access to some uber stuff of wank, Anubis would control the whole galaxy. The second time, he got his ass handled by an ascended being, since it was the only thing able to stop him from wiping out all life in the galaxy by using a device, on Dakara again, he captured.

The real problem was that with Anubis controlling so many forces, having Anubis be defeated also meant having a greater number of forces in disarray, while previously, all what could be achieved was minor victories.
Remove a good dose of character shields, treason and luck, and all cities on Earth would be long buried since season 1, thanks to only two motherships.

There’s so many examples of this in the SG universe already. The asgard by the hands of the replicators.

The Asgards resisted pretty much well up until the end. I always get my time references about the Asgard-Replicator war mixed, but I think at one point it was said the Asgards fought them for decades, if not more.

The gould by the hands of the replicator and the Tauri

Putting Replicators aside (the Goa'uld were defeated in a fight which happened over the whole galaxy), the Tau'ri managed to win crucial battles by sheer luck, protection of Asgards, help from the Tok'ra or the use of powerful alteran devices.
Get real, on their own, the Tau'ri suck a big time and would be dead since a long time.

the Ancients by the hand of the wraith.

The Ancients were not a super power in military terms until late, at which point the deployment of unusual weapons and fancy tech didn't balance out a situation where Wraith, for some reason, got the upper hand.
In case you forgot, at the end, the Lantians equipped their warships with a ZPM each, along their initial power core.

the replicators by the hands of the Tauri (using ancient tech).

Like you say, ancient tech. A super DEM.
That's shooting your own foot. Thank you.

The SG universe doesn’t exactly have a good track record in regards to competition to the status quo and anyone who says otherwise must not be paying enough attention.

On the contrary, but it's rather easy to come with nonsensical claims and paint them as t3h truth and the rest is BS.
The fact is, you're making so glaring mistakes it's not even fun.

When any “superpower” can be nearly wiped out by another with somewhat inferior or near level tech, that doesn’t say a lot about said superpower does it.

Of course, but what you speak of didn't happen. All forces, Goa'uld, Asgard, Lantian and Replicators, were defeated by superior forces and, most of the time, just greater tech.
The Dakara planet itself has been the downfall of both Goa'uld and Replicators.

There’s a difference between having the ability to conquer the MW galaxy and not being allowed to. The TV series isn’t a fan forum with anything goes as the premise. You disregard all other races in the ST universe (for whatever reason) because they don’t seem worthy in your eyes.

I think it has more to do with the fact that the thread only involves the Borg, nothing more.

You may disagree but the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Breen, and Dominion are superpowers in their respective region of space.

What a nice double standard. You'd also understand that by this same logic, all forces in Stargate are superpower within their own localized regions of space.

They obviously haven’t conquered the galaxy since unlike the SG MW; they actually have competition that more or less keeps them in check. Your favoritism probably discounts the ST universe as a whole but there are other superpowers in the MW other than the Borg.

No, the Borg haven't conquered the galaxy because their easiest method of travel is still horribly slow.

The replicators are the SG race that they are most similar to. Granted they’re not identical but they have so much in common. They are of course unlike any other race in the SG universe. How are they so different from the replicators? In their collective state, they consume and overrun nearly anything. Hacking into computer systems has never seem necessary for the Borg. Remember that they only consume technology that can advance them in some way shape or form.

Seven of Nine hacks into the Voyager's systems, via the consoles, to take control of the whole ship.

It isn’t necessary for them to consume inferior technology. The individual drones may be pathetic but that’s not where their strengths lie. The Replicators in their individual parts are just as weak and hackable which has been proven by the tauri on countless occasions.

It is true that both races have many similarities, and their forces lie in their numbers, plus the use of some advanced tech when it's really absolutely needed.
That said, the Replicators are the Borg on steroids.

That statement alone tells me you will never give the Borg the proper thought and consideration. You completely disregard the advantage of a hive mind/cooperation to make your point. Hyperdrive is not a mystical technology by any stretch of the imagination. Any sufficiently advanced race would be capable of figuring out (even less advanced races have). To say a race such as the Borg wouldn’t be able to (or would have difficulty with it) after having assimilated the hardware and software (people with the knowledge) just shows how skewed beyond reason your thought process is on this race.

That advantage is properly nullified by a same, and in fact better advantage, based on similar principles, which the Replicators rely on.