someone probaly knows the answer to this question

[Nero]

Its not fact at all just because its been addressed briefly in the show. The writers in past experiance often let you assume one thing and then surprise you with a twist in later episodes, especially where they leave things ambiguous or let some one from earth make a statement like shep, which later turns out to be an assumption on their part.

Yet the Ancient hologram says it was numbers. So it's not an assumption.

Hologram: Never before had we encountered beings with powers that rivalled our own. In our over-confidence, we were unprepared and outnumbered

And in The Siege Part 2 they rewatch the Hologram .....

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir. We could do that. (He walks over to the control console and activates it. The doors to the room close, the lights go out and a three dimensional map of the galaxy appears above their heads, showing hundreds of blue stars.) This is the status of the Pegasus galaxy before the Ancients encountered the Wraith. The blue stars represent systems either inhabited by or protected by the Ancients. Then ... (he presses something on the console and all the stars turn red) this is how it looked after they fought for almost a hundred years.

EVERETT: Until Atlantis was all that was left.

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir. That's when the siege began. (The map homes in on the solar system of the planet on which Atlantis is based.) For several more years, the Atlanteans were able to hold off their attackers, relying on the city's shield and superior weaponry, including the weapons satellite system. No matter how many Wraith ships they destroyed, more kept coming here. They could win almost every battle but they saw no way to win the war, so they submerged the city and left. (He deactivates the display and the lights come back on.) That's it. That's the story -- but the picture is pretty clear

There is no evidence that surgests the Goa'uld ever had multiple millions in their army. Aphophis was a system lord and was severly weakened after loosing a few thousand Jaffa and a couple of ships.

From Stronghold.

BAAL: The Jaffa number in the millions spread across the vastness of the galaxy. Your backgrounds are diverse and rich in the history of warfare with each other ...

Millions in the service of the Goa'uld.

It was never superiour numbers of jaffa that beat them but the replicators which when destroyed the jaffa took advantage of the Goa'uld's weakened position. Had the replicators not attacked the goa'uld would never have fallen.

Nope they took Advantage of Baals weakened condition and afterward when he escaped it proved to the Majority of Jaffa that the Goa'uld were not gods.

From Reckoning Part 2.

CARTER: Yes, sir. Although Baal got away, the fact that he turned tail and ran made the rebel victory every bit the turning point Teal'c and Bra'tac were hoping for. Jaffa from all over the galaxy are joining with them.

Numbers are only a huge factor when the enermy doesn't have an impenertrable defence and the ability to pick you off at will. It would be like an ancient army armed with swords going up against the modern day equivelent. It wouldn't matter how many there was if your out of their reach a few well placed nukes would do the trick. Or if impractical drive over the whole lot of them with tanks. Numbers only give an advantage where the enermies are more equal.

Well the Ancients defenses are not impenetrable because had they been they would not have lost the war! And your analogy is flawed, The Wraith were not as advanced as the Ancients but their weapons were still capable of damaging Ancient technology/Sheilds so it wouldn't be like Swordsmen v Riflemen.

There is a serious contradiction in your arguement here. If wraith numbers are now diminished how can they not have enough food to sustain them

Because they were Awoken from hybernation too early for the stocks to have resupplied to the level where it would be sufficient.

From Allies

MICHAEL: For the first time since the dawn of our race, there are too few of your kind to feed the waking Wraith. This has resulted in civil war. Hives are forming alliances. The strong are attacking the weak.

if they did ten thousand years ago when Atlantis was all that remained.

Yeah then they fed on alot of the people, there were alot more Humans in Pegasus back then.

Rising Part 1

Hologram: The enemy fed upon defenceless human worlds like a great scourge until finally only Atlantis remained

This is also another problem with the writers version of events up to now. If the wraith were going to run short of food and end in civil war they would have done it ten thousand years ago.

Had they been awoken at the correct time there would have been sufficient food for them all however the actions of the Atlantis team caused the Wraith to awaken early resulting in the shortage they now face. Which in turn resulted in the Cival War. Refer to my earlier quote.

I wasn't refering to construction specifically but more that they should have build more resource efficient weapons if as every ony seems to be claiming they were running short of resources. Projectile weapons certainly aren't efficiant.

The Drones work damn well. As I said the Satelite weapon and project Arcturus weapon may have been a late effort by the Ancients to create more "sustainable" weapons systems.

But then again this hyperthetical lack of resources is far from fact and has never been indicated specifically in any episode.

As opposed to Numbers being mentioned SPECIFICALLY as the reason the Ancients lost but you dont accept it anyway? Yet your arguing that "its not mentioned in the show so its not fact" but something mentioned in the show numerous times is also "not fact" because you don't believe it? Very hypocritical there.

Quite the oposite has been surgested in that they only reason they left was because they saw no way to win, not that they couldn't keep going and still win every battle.

If this was very well the case then how were they driven back to Atlantis may I ask? Surely if they could "hold the line" so to speak they could have prevented the Wraith spreading as far as they did.

Hologram:The enemy fed upon defenceless human worlds like a great scourge until finally only Atlantis remained. This city's great shield was powerful enough to withstand their terrible weapons but here we were besieged for many years. In an effort to save the last of our kind, we submerged our great city into the ocean


ALT-WEIR: The Atlanteans sent a delegation protected by their most powerful warships in the faint hope of negotiating a truce. One on one, the Atlantean ships were more powerful, but the Wraith were so many. After that great battle, it was only a matter of time.

So your saying "not that they couldn't keep going and still win every battle"
They didn't win that Battle.

They just saw it as pointless, probably because the wraith by that time could build ships faster than they could. But numbers alone didn't get them in to that weakened position.

They saw it pointless because the Wraith could build more ships than them, and then you go on to say that it wasn't numbers that caused the defeat of the Ancients?
Compare that to your previous statement of "Quite the oposite has been surgested in that they only reason they left was because they saw no way to win, not that they couldn't keep going and still win every battle"

So let me get it straight here. You say

1) The Ancients saw no way to win, but they could still keep going and win every battle?
2) The Wraith could build more ships than them so they decided to leave?

Contradicting yourself.

How do you know the Asurans havn't been attacked? And where could they go for resources that the ancients couldn't?

Considering the Wraith found out about Atlantis and sent 15 Hiveships after it, had they detected the Asuran Cityship they would have done the same. I've no proof however. They could have gone to anywhere to get the resources, we'll have to wait and see where they got them however we know they did because they've a load of ZPMs. They had to build those with something!

Who says they cant replicate stuff the asgard can and the ancients are suppose to be more advanced than they are. Plus any race that can disasemble matter atom by atom and put it back together again should beable to add a few more subatomic particles to the mix.

because its not an infinate loop. You need resources to construct the technology, construct the power generation assembly and then the process itself. Now if they had the resouces etc to construct all this in the first place there wouldn't be a problem. And also if they had this technology and it was as simple as you'd like then they definatly would not have lost the war as they would have litterly constructed Ships/Weapons at a rapid pace.

[Nero]

That wasn't their initial plan as they did plan to return. Plus from the spoilers if we are taking them at their word they returned and found nothing but a primitive civilisation with no way to rebuild. This makes no sense what so ever since they had a perfectly good flying city in Pegasis. So they could have flew it back which again makes no sense why they didn't or as surgested in the hologram returned to Atlantis since they obviously had every reason at the time.

Don't dispute any of that. I've said many times its rediculous they Left a perfectly Flyable ship in the Pegasus galaxy. Said the same about the Orion. Why leave them? My only guess is they didn't want to show the Wraith the way to the Milky-Way galaxy.

Where does the resource thing come in to it the weapon already existed, I didn't mean build another one just use the one they already had. According to the holo lady from their prospective they believed all humans had been wiped out and so only the wraith would have been destroyed for all they knew.

No doesn't say anything of the sort. All it says is that the Wraith fed on the worlds. And she then goes on to say "In an effort to save the last of our kind, we submerged our great city into the ocean"

Her kind being Ancients, not Humans.

And if your reffering to the Dakara weapon, it was on Dakara. How would they get it to Pegasus? The thing was litterly the size of a mountain.

As for being a good weapn against the wraith it wiped out the replicators and they aren't tied to planets as much as wraith are. The wraith need planets for food and if their ships are grown as implied up to now, then they would likely need organic raw materials and various minerals to grow their ships. So it would be the equivelent of wiping out their ship making capabilities.

Your assuming they build their ships on Ground, and your also assuming every planet the Wraith occupy has a Stargate. Come to think of it your assuming they "grow" their ships also just because some components are Organic in Nature doesn't mean the entire ship is grown.

Also they could have used the tech to build ship versions much like the asgard did but much more advanced that could wipe out a fleet with one shot including all darts.

Again if they had the resources necessary for this type of thing they probably would have done it. The fact they didn't do something which could have turned the tide of the war points to one thing. They couldn't.

yes Merlin or Moros under his lantean name who just happened to be head of the Atlantean council. So he uses death traps to protect research againt innocent passers by but he's not going to be inclined to attack their worst enermy.

What are you talking about? "Innocent passers by"? The "Trap" only works if someone breaks into his lab. That "innocent passer by" is what we refer to as a criminal. And correct me if i'm wrong here but in alot of Countries, if a person breaks into your home its not illegal to shoot/kill him in self-defence.

Merlin was working to save humanity from the Ori. Of Course he didn't want people to be breaking into his lab and looting it.

Whether the Ori were good or not it doesn't change the fact that its been stated in the show that morality isn't an issue for ascention, or that the Ori were held out as the example to surport this.

Morality IS an issue for Ascention to take place AS STATED IN SHOW ironicly by Anubus. However it is not a requirement to stay ascended. Simple analogy would be that you need a key to get into a room, but you don't need to keep that key once your inside.

Its also never been discussed when the Ori required worship and its quite possible they acted like goa'ulds when they were mere advanced humans.

Its also quite possible the Ori look and dress like Circus clowns but i've no proof to back that up. So its a null-point much like yours.

This is where we disagree because what you regard as proven I just see as creative story telling which allows for the introduction of twists through its ambiguous nature.

Then you see wrong because the Ancients, their Hologram, and the Humans who now occupy their City all say it was numbers numerous times. Disagree all you like and say it allows for the introduction and twists(which all stroy telling does) however until said "twists" occur to disprove any theory, then the number issue is proven fact.

If you look back at my posts I've never said numbers weren't a factor just that they is no way the ancients could have been defeated with numbers alone. I've always said there has to be more to the story, so there is no contradiction.

And as i've said prove it. I've proved it was numbers through actual evidence in show. You've just speculated on multiple scenarios.

[mburrows]

this guy's on a role lol, i didnt think this thread would last this long lol....anywho, i still think if a simple outpost could wipe out anubis's fleet, im sure a city ship full of drones should've been able to...unless the ancients were just so stupid they forgot to pack teh drones and just left them burried somewhere in the milky way....i meen, i'd think even an orion-class should be able to take out a huge fleet of wraith because it could use chair to launch the drones in it's reserves or w.e, then hyperspace out of there to resupply, then hyperspace back in the check on the drones status on the wraith fleet....they find wraith destroyed, go to next target...rinse and repeat

[Nero]

this guy's on a role lol, i didnt think this thread would last this long lol....anywho,

Thanks

i still think if a simple outpost could wipe out anubis's fleet, im sure a city ship full of drones should've been able to...unless the ancients were just so stupid they forgot to pack teh drones and just left them burried somewhere in the milky way

Earth was were the Ancients retreated to after the defeat in Pegasus. The Superweapon could have been built into the outpost after the war/retreat. There's no evidence to suggest every outpost was armed to the teeth.
Besides Anubis' fleet was 30 Capital ships. We know a Ha'tak is much smaller than a Wraith Hiveship, yet O'Neill launched Tens of Thousands of drones the destroy the fleet. How many drones would have been required to take out an equivalent number of Hive Ships? Now imagine greater numbers of hives ships continually attacking. Theres only so long you can hold out.

....i meen, i'd think even an orion-class should be able to take out a huge fleet of wraith because it could use chair to launch the drones in it's reserves or w.e, then hyperspace out of there to resupply, then hyperspace back in the check on the drones status on the wraith fleet....they find wraith destroyed, go to next target...rinse and repeat

Again if it had of been that easy the Ancients would have won. Obviously there's other factors. We know Aurora Class ships were more powerfull than Wraith vessels because it says so in show. Perhaps the Ancients were covering an Evacuation of a planet and so could not just hyperspace away to replensih. Also they may not have had the resources to replenish their weapons supplies.

[Harekin]

Also it probably takes time to make even one weapon as brutally destructive as a drone...even for the Ancients.

[Gate Master]

Yet the Ancient hologram says it was numbers. So it's not an assumption.

Hologram: Never before had we encountered beings with powers that rivalled our own. In our over-confidence, we were unprepared and outnumbered

I dont dispute the ancient hologram just your interpretation. Outnumbered doesn't mean numbers alone cause them to loose the war and by your own quote, unprepared could have alot to do with it as well. It was also a very broad overview of a war that had raged for a hundred years. So who know what minor details they left out.

From Stronghold.

BAAL: The Jaffa number in the millions spread across the vastness of the galaxy. Your backgrounds are diverse and rich in the history of warfare with each other ...

Millions in the service of the Goa'uld.

Fair point I forgot what had been said in that ep

Nope they took Advantage of Baals weakened condition and afterward when he escaped it proved to the Majority of Jaffa that the Goa'uld were not gods.

From Reckoning Part 2.

CARTER: Yes, sir. Although Baal got away, the fact that he turned tail and ran made the rebel victory every bit the turning point Teal'c and Bra'tac were hoping for. Jaffa from all over the galaxy are joining with them.

Goauld's have ran before with out such effect and if any thing it was just icing on the cake for the rebellion. If you recall from earlier in the ep it was the successful invasion of Dakara that was said would make even the most stubburn Jaffa question his beliefs. This as I said wouldn't have been possible had it not been for the replicators weakening the Goaulds position and their fleet being spread thin.

Well the Ancients defenses are not impenetrable because had they been they would not have lost the war! And your analogy is flawed, The Wraith were not as advanced as the Ancients but their weapons were still capable of damaging Ancient technology/Sheilds so it wouldn't be like Swordsmen v Riflemen.

Atlantis for all intents and purposes was inpenetrable and it was never lost. As for my analogy we are talking about a few hundred years differance in tech. As for the ancients they were supposed to be millions of years a head of the wraith so I dont see a problem with it. If they had a ZPM powered shields and energy weapons it could be equivelant to a tank verses an army with swords.

Because they were Awoken from hybernation too early for the stocks to have resupplied to the level where it would be sufficient.

From Allies

MICHAEL: For the first time since the dawn of our race, there are too few of your kind to feed the waking Wraith. This has resulted in civil war. Hives are forming alliances. The strong are attacking the weak.


Yeah then they fed on alot of the people, there were alot more Humans in Pegasus back then.

Rising Part 1

Hologram: The enemy fed upon defenceless human worlds like a great scourge until finally only Atlantis remained

Had they been awoken at the correct time there would have been sufficient food for them all however the actions of the Atlantis team caused the Wraith to awaken early resulting in the shortage they now face. Which in turn resulted in the Cival War. Refer to my earlier quote.

But there's still a big problem with this story. Even if there were exactly the same amount of wraith today as there was then, its only taken two years since a wakening to lead to civil war. Yet they fought a war for a hundred years and then when Atlantis was all that remained had them beseiged for a few more. So how did they get food? There's also speculation that 60 hive ships couldn't be classed as outnumbering the ancients and that there was a lot more wraith back then which means that food would have ran out even quicker than it did now especially after a hundred and odd years.

So why didn't they go in to civil war back then or return to hybernation as they did long ago when they realised they had awoke too early now?

The Drones work damn well. As I said the Satelite weapon and project Arcturus weapon may have been a late effort by the Ancients to create more "sustainable" weapons systems.

I don't dispute the drones effectiveness just there resource efficientcy. When the energy weapons were created doesn't matter the fact that they had the satilite energy based weapon does and could have used it effectively if installed on a ship. As for Arcturus that made no sence either since the satilite could destroy a hive ship with one blast with no more than a naquada generator powering it so why they felt the need to creat a power source 25times that of a ZPM to power a suped up version is a mystery.

As opposed to Numbers being mentioned SPECIFICALLY as the reason the Ancients lost but you dont accept it anyway? Yet your arguing that "its not mentioned in the show so its not fact" but something mentioned in the show numerous times is also "not fact" because you don't believe it? Very hypocritical there.

Numbers has been mentioned but it has never been stated that numbers was the sole reason they lost the war.

If this was very well the case then how were they driven back to Atlantis may I ask? Surely if they could "hold the line" so to speak they could have prevented the Wraith spreading as far as they did.

Hologram:The enemy fed upon defenceless human worlds like a great scourge until finally only Atlantis remained. This city's great shield was powerful enough to withstand their terrible weapons but here we were besieged for many years. In an effort to save the last of our kind, we submerged our great city into the ocean


ALT-WEIR: The Atlanteans sent a delegation protected by their most powerful warships in the faint hope of negotiating a truce. One on one, the Atlantean ships were more powerful, but the Wraith were so many. After that great battle, it was only a matter of time.

So your saying "not that they couldn't keep going and still win every battle"
They didn't win that Battle.

Granted I missed out 'nearly' when I was refering to shep's comments but if you refer to your own quote this is what was said in the show that you regard as fact. As Shep said they could win nearly every battle but more kept coming and so they saw no way to win the war. Reading between the lines that sounds to me like they thought it was pointless to continue.

They saw it pointless because the Wraith could build more ships than them, and then you go on to say that it wasn't numbers that caused the defeat of the Ancients?
Compare that to your previous statement of "Quite the oposite has been surgested in that they only reason they left was because they saw no way to win, not that they couldn't keep going and still win every battle"

So let me get it straight here. You say

1) The Ancients saw no way to win, but they could still keep going and win every battle?
2) The Wraith could build more ships than them so they decided to leave?

Contradicting yourself.

How is this a contradiction, winning every battle even with my mistake of leaving out 'nearly' doesn't mean you can win the war. Its also based on what you regard as fact, being what was stated in the show. If they could build ships faster that wouldn't alter the fact that destroying them would become pointless as more would keep coming.
I also said probably could build more ships because by that time they would have had a larger infastructure where as the ancients to our knowledge only had Atlantis.
But I still dont think numbers alone could have got the ancients in to that weakened condition.

Considering the Wraith found out about Atlantis and sent 15 Hiveships after it, had they detected the Asuran Cityship they would have done the same. I've no proof however. They could have gone to anywhere to get the resources, we'll have to wait and see where they got them however we know they did because they've a load of ZPMs. They had to build those with something!

They may have and they may have been destroyed. Then the Asuran's perhaps moved or the wraith didn't return for what ever reason as appeared to be the case after their fleet was wiped out by the Acturus weapon.

because its not an infinate loop. You need resources to construct the technology, construct the power generation assembly and then the process itself. Now if they had the resouces etc to construct all this in the first place there wouldn't be a problem. And also if they had this technology and it was as simple as you'd like then they definatly would not have lost the war as they would have litterly constructed Ships/Weapons at a rapid pace.

This is my point entirely tho in that at their level of tech they should not have lost the war. The asgard seem to have replication tech and Atlantis is surrounded by water with enough matter to create whatever elements they need. Even at our level of tech now we can alter atoms and such in partical accelerators.
As for if it had been as simple as that they wouldn't have lost the war, its just one of those story points that makes no sense. Much like ignoring past show precidents so that they need a ship to travel from Earth to Atlantis when they should already have two way travel through the gate.

[Gate Master]

No doesn't say anything of the sort. All it says is that the Wraith fed on the worlds. And she then goes on to say "In an effort to save the last of our kind, we submerged our great city into the ocean"

Her kind being Ancients, not Humans.

Untill Atlantis was all that remain was stated and from what has been said in the show they regard humans as their kind. Janus referred to them as the second coming of their kind and holo lady didn't say fed on the human and ancient worlds.

And if your reffering to the Dakara weapon, it was on Dakara. How would they get it to Pegasus? The thing was litterly the size of a mountain.

Your assuming they build their ships on Ground, and your also assuming every planet the Wraith occupy has a Stargate. Come to think of it your assuming they "grow" their ships also just because some components are Organic in Nature doesn't mean the entire ship is grown.

Why do they need to move it any where, it works through the gate. Regardless of how they make their ships they are still more tied to planets than the replicators were.
Also it says in the Omnipedia that when used on a galactic scale the waves from each gate meet. I've never heard it mentioned in the show but it does make sense when thinking back to why Baal was so worried otherwise he could have flew in to deep space. So it perhaps wouldn't have needed them to be even close to a gate.

Again if they had the resources necessary for this type of thing they probably would have done it. The fact they didn't do something which could have turned the tide of the war points to one thing. They couldn't.

Just another plothole untill explained in a future ep

What are you talking about? "Innocent passers by"? The "Trap" only works if someone breaks into his lab. That "innocent passer by" is what we refer to as a criminal. And correct me if i'm wrong here but in alot of Countries, if a person breaks into your home its not illegal to shoot/kill him in self-defence.

Merlin was working to save humanity from the Ori. Of Course he didn't want people to be breaking into his lab and looting it.

First it was actually the poor people of the village who suffered if any one went in to his lab. Second he had already met our kind, new we were explorers and still planted those traps in our own back yard where we were almost certain to stumble on to them

Morality IS an issue for Ascention to take place AS STATED IN SHOW ironicly by Anubus. However it is not a requirement to stay ascended. Simple analogy would be that you need a key to get into a room, but you don't need to keep that key once your inside.

Morality is only an issue when being assended by an Ancient and its been stated in the show as such. How can you regard the show as fact in one case and completely ignore it in another. Anubis is the perfect example unless your surgesting the worst goauld conviently became morale just in time to ascend and then did a complete 180 and went back to evil. He tricked Oma and if morality was truely an issue trickery wouldn't be possible.

Its also quite possible the Ori look and dress like Circus clowns but i've no proof to back that up. So its a null-point much like yours.

My point was actually plausable considering their nature, speculation and discussion is what this forum is about last time I checked so perhaps you would prefer a different forum if its not to your liking. As for null-points the only one I can see is you continually arguing that morality is an issue for ascention going against all evidence in the show and what is established fact.

Then you see wrong because the Ancients, their Hologram, and the Humans who now occupy their City all say it was numbers numerous times. Disagree all you like and say it allows for the introduction and twists(which all stroy telling does) however until said "twists" occur to disprove any theory, then the number issue is proven fact.

And as i've said prove it. I've proved it was numbers through actual evidence in show. You've just speculated on multiple scenarios.

The only thing you have proved is that numbers was a factor to which I havn't disagreed with. But by your own examples you've proved my point in that numbers wasn't the only factor and as I have always maintained I think there is still more to know.

[Nero]

I dont dispute the ancient hologram just your interpretation. Outnumbered doesn't mean numbers alone cause them to loose the war and by your own quote, unprepared could have alot to do with it as well. It was also a very broad overview of a war that had raged for a hundred years. So who know what minor details they left out.

They were unprepared for a War and outnumbered. What else could unprepared relate to in the context of the Wraith? And yes she is saying this in relation to the Wraith. Unprepared and outnumbered means just that.

Goauld's have ran before with out such effect and if any thing it was just icing on the cake for the rebellion. If you recall from earlier in the ep it was the successful invasion of Dakara that was said would make even the most stubburn Jaffa question his beliefs. This as I said wouldn't have been possible had it not been for the replicators weakening the Goaulds position and their fleet being spread thin.

Your quote

It was never superiour numbers of jaffa that beat them but the replicators which when destroyed the jaffa took advantage of the Goa'uld's weakened position. Had the replicators not attacked the goa'uld would never have fallen.

They took Advantage of Baals weakened condition, not all the the Goa'uld, only Baal. And because they defeated Baal the rest of the Jaffa began turning against the Goa'uld. Which in turn gave the Free Jaffa the NUMBERS ADVANTAGE. The Goa'uld being more advanced could not win against the numbers. Just like the Ancients. Which was my point that I backed up with the Carter quote.

The Goa'uld would never have fallen as long as the majority of Jaffa still believed they were gods which ment they would still have the numbers advantage. The Replicator attack was mearly a distraction which the free Jaffa took advantage off. It would have been the same if Baal was warring with the remains of the System lord, his forces would have still been occupied providing the free Jaffa with a chance to prove the Goa'uld false Gods. In short, it was not the enemy but the circumstance.

Atlantis for all intents and purposes was inpenetrable and it was never lost.

Hmm strange because its "The Lost City". So "never lost" is not the phrase to use here. you probably mean it wasn't destroyed. But why did they sink it? hmm.. lets find out.

Hologram: This city's great shield was powerful enough to withstand their terrible weapons but here we were besieged for many years. In an effort to save the last of our kind, we submerged our great city into the ocean.

So in an effort to SAVE the last of their kind they sank the city. Why do that if it's invunerable to enemy fire?

As for my analogy we are talking about a few hundred years differance in tech.

And your analogy is flawed because

1) your basing it on human history

2) your ignoring the Fact Wraith weapons have been shown to Damage ancient ships/technology. I need only to point to the numerous Puddlejumpers destroyed, the Wreck of the Aurora and Atlantis itself when they attack during the Siege Part 3.

WEIR: How long will it hold?

McKAY: Well, if they stop firing it'll last almost indefinitely but ...

WEIR: Are we talking months, weeks?

McKAY: Days. At this rate the Zed P.M will be depleted within days.

As for the ancients they were supposed to be millions of years a head of the wraith so I dont see a problem with it. If they had a ZPM powered shields and energy weapons it could be equivelant to a tank verses an army with swords.

Where does it say exactly how much advanced over the Wraith they are? Can you please provide evidence as I do? Its obvious from watching that they are more advanced, but not to a point where they are invunerable to Wraith weaponary or else they would never have lost. And again your analogy is flawed - see above for my earlier point. It is in no way similar to a Tank vs a Swordman.

But there's still a big problem with this story. Even if there were exactly the same amount of wraith today as there was then, its only taken two years since a wakening to lead to civil war.

Do you read my points and quotes from show at all? I already gave you a direct quote as to my they are having a cival war now! they were awoken too early and their food source has not fully replenished!

Here's the quote again since you obviously didnt read my earlier post.

MICHAEL: For the first time since the dawn of our race, there are too few of your kind to feed the waking Wraith. This has resulted in civil war. Hives are forming alliances. The strong are attacking the weak.

Yet they fought a war for a hundred years and then when Atlantis was all that remained had them beseiged for a few more. So how did they get food?

Because back then life was flourishing as said so in Rising part 1 by the Ancient hologram. heres yet more EVIDENCE, something you have yet to provide.

HOLOGRAM: ... in the hope of spreading new life in a galaxy where there appeared to be none. Soon the new life grew, prospered. Here ...

HOLOGRAM: ... exchange knowledge and friendship. (Above her head a three dimensional holographic map of the galaxy appears.) In time, a thousand worlds bore the fruit of life in this form.

A Thousand worlds filled with life. Plently of food for the Wraith.

There's also speculation that 60 hive ships couldn't be classed as outnumbering the ancients and that there was a lot more wraith back then which means that food would have ran out even quicker than it did now especially after a hundred and odd years.

Theres 60 ships now, could have been thousands back them,

ALT-WEIR: The Atlanteans sent a delegation protected by their most powerful warships in the faint hope of negotiating a truce. One on one, the Atlantean ships were more powerful, but the Wraith were so many. After that great battle, it was only a matter of time.

Sheppard:No matter how many Wraith ships they destroyed, more kept coming here. They could win almost every battle but they saw no way to win the war

So why didn't they go in to civil war back then or return to hybernation as they did long ago when they realised they had awoke too early now?

Because they may not be able to, now that their bodies have awoken from the hybernation process they may need to feed before they can re-enter this state. Pure specualtion here but otherwise they would have gone back into hybernation when they realised there was not enough food if they had the ability to.

I don't dispute the drones effectiveness just there resource efficientcy. When the energy weapons were created doesn't matter the fact that they had the satilite energy based weapon does and could have used it effectively if installed on a ship. As for Arcturus that made no sence either since the satilite could destroy a hive ship with one blast with no more than a naquada generator powering it so why they felt the need to creat a power source 25times that of a ZPM to power a suped up version is a mystery.

These were weapons developed too late in the war to be of long term benefit. The Satelite weapon was unsheilded and vunerable. We have no way of knowing how fast it fired with its proper power source. From the Wreckage visable it only shot down one transport ship. The Arturus weapon in comparison was rapid fire and decimated an entire Wraith Fleet. It would track and fire on multiple targets. Had they of perfected the technology no doubt it could have turned the tide of the war.

Numbers has been mentioned but it has never been stated that numbers was the sole reason they lost the war.

I've provided direct Quotes that prove you wrong. But you dont accept it, you called it "creative writing". What I call creative writing is your points as you have provided no evidence to back them up.

here's quotes again that prove it was numbers

HOLOGRAM: ... exchange knowledge and friendship. (Above her head a three dimensional holographic map of the galaxy appears.) In time, a thousand worlds bore the fruit of life in this form. Then one day our people stepped foot upon a dark world where a terrible enemy slept. Never before had we encountered beings with powers that rivalled our own. In our over-confidence, we were unprepared and outnumbered. The enemy fed upon defenceless human worlds like a great scourge until finally only Atlantis remained

ALT-WEIR: They told me of beings called Wraiths -- a vicious, formidable enemy whose power and technology rivalled their own.

McKAY: Yes -- actually , we've already, umm ... (He trails off as Elizabeth shoots him a look to shut him up.)

ALT-WEIR: The Atlanteans sent a delegation protected by their most powerful warships in the faint hope of negotiating a truce. One on one, the Atlantean ships were more powerful, but the Wraith were so many. After that great battle, it was only a matter of time.


EVERETT: Still, I would like to see for myself how the Ancients lost the first time -- to try to avoid their mistakes.

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir. We could do that. (He walks over to the control console and activates it. The doors to the room close, the lights go out and a three dimensional map of the galaxy appears above their heads, showing hundreds of blue stars.) This is the status of the Pegasus galaxy before the Ancients encountered the Wraith. The blue stars represent systems either inhabited by or protected by the Ancients. Then ... (he presses something on the console and all the stars turn red) this is how it looked after they fought for almost a hundred years.

EVERETT: Until Atlantis was all that was left.

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir. That's when the siege began. (The map homes in on the solar system of the planet on which Atlantis is based.) For several more years, the Atlanteans were able to hold off their attackers, relying on the city's shield and superior weaponry, including the weapons satellite system. No matter how many Wraith ships they destroyed, more kept coming here. They could win almost every battle but they saw no way to win the war, so they submerged the city and left. (He deactivates the display and the lights come back on.) That's it. That's the story -- but the picture is pretty clear.

EVERETT: So you think this is a no-win situation?

SHEPPARD: No, sir -- what I mean is, even if we beat them this time, they're gonna come back.

There you have it, numbers, numbers, numbers. Thats what we call direct evidence. Please try providing some to back up for points.

Granted I missed out 'nearly' when I was refering to shep's comments but if you refer to your own quote this is what was said in the show that you regard as fact. As Shep said they could win nearly every battle but more kept coming and so they saw no way to win the war. Reading between the lines that sounds to me like they thought it was pointless to continue.

Its actually 'Almost'. And they thought it pointless to continue and retreated because the Wraith numbers were superior and they couldn't win the war. So they lost due to numbers. Simple. By the way if you think the Ancients could hold their own how do you think the Wraith beat them back to Atlantis in the first place may I ask?

How is this a contradiction, winning every battle even with my mistake of leaving out 'nearly' doesn't mean you can win the war.

Yes it does. Or at least hold them to a stalemate, which we know the Ancients couldn't do because they were pushed back until only Atlantis remained.

[Nero]

Its also based on what you regard as fact, being what was stated in the show.

No whats said in show is reffered to as cannon(true info). So your saying whats said in the show is lies now because it doesn't fit into what you beleived happened? We have a professional Debator here. You should go national with that talent.

If they could build ships faster that wouldn't alter the fact that destroying them would become pointless as more would keep coming.
I also said probably could build more ships because by that time they would have had a larger infastructure

So they were outnumbered yeah? Gee who said that I wonder? Oh yeah me. So now you agree with me? Contradicting yourself big time. The Wraith had more ships, the Ancients weapons were being depleted, their Fleet was Annihilated, they were loosing.

where as the ancients to our knowledge only had Atlantis.

Plus the City Ship in 'The Tower', plus the Base in 'Inferno', plus the outpost in 'Trinity' and god knows how many more not yet discovered.

But I still dont think numbers alone could have got the ancients in to that weakened condition.

Think what you like, prove it with evidence. I have proved it was numbers. Instead of providing direct evidence as I requested you provided yet more of your 'theories'.

They may have and they may have been destroyed.

Like the first 3 hiveships attacking Atlantis? After which the Wraith just sent more.

Then the Asuran's perhaps moved or the wraith didn't return for what ever reason as appeared to be the case after their fleet was wiped out by the Acturus weapon.

So now you agree with me that the Wraith left them alone? Contradiction yet again. And the reason the Wraith didn't return to the planet in Trinity was because the weapon was deactivated and everything on the planet dead. No point in returning.

This is my point entirely tho in that at their level of tech they should not have lost the war. The asgard seem to have replication tech and Atlantis is surrounded by water with enough matter to create whatever elements they need. Even at our level of tech now we can alter atoms and such in partical accelerators.

As I stated again before hand the Ancients lost due to numbers, not technolodgical inferiority.
We've seen in many aspects the Asgard are more advanced than the Ancients. Because the Asgard have a particular technology doesn't automatically mean the Ancients had it. And again if they did have the technology to alter atoms they would have done so. The fact they didn't points to only one thing, they couldn't.

As for if it had been as simple as that they wouldn't have lost the war, its just one of those story points that makes no sense. Much like ignoring past show precidents so that they need a ship to travel from Earth to Atlantis when they should already have two way travel through the gate.

What are you talking about here?

[Harekin]

I need a question answered...how could the Wraith have possibly advanced to the level rivalling the Ancients so quickly without some kind of outside help? It says that the Ancients left Earth several MILLION years ago in Atlantis in Rising Part One. How in good Gods name could the Wraith possibly be a threat to a race who have been around and had city ship/drone technology for literally MILLIONS of years.

[IcyNeko]

Gate Master? More like Gate Novice, amirite?

To answer your question, they could have taken some genetic material from ancients that they came into contact. I'm not sure if genetic memory works the same way as it does with the Goa'uld, but it's possible. Rumor has it that they evolved rapidly from their prey, so it's possible they evolved into human form and then acquired knowledge from there...

[Harekin]

But we cant just acquire the information and we've been in a human form for alot longer than the Wraith.

[IcyNeko]

Well, we're a lil less developed on the totem pole as the Ancients were. The Wraith had contact with ancients that were near-ascended.

[Nero]

Untill Atlantis was all that remain was stated and from what has been said in the show they regard humans as their kind. Janus referred to them as the second coming of their kind and holo lady didn't say fed on the human and ancient worlds.

read again please...


HOLOGRAM: ... in the hope of spreading new life in a galaxy where there appeared to be none. Soon the new life grew, prospered. Here ...

Hologram: The enemy fed upon defenceless human worlds

Hologram: In an effort to save the last of our kind, we submerged our great city into the ocean


The Ancients were Alterans, not humans. Human are lower down on the Evolutionary path. Like calling a Primate a Human. Not the same.

Even in before I sleep they say

MELIA: We're awaiting the last of our offworld transport ships before beginning our evacuation through the Stargate.

The Ancients evacuated the last of their kind to Atlantis to leave the Pegasus Galaxy. But left Millions of humans left in Pegasus Galaxy because the weren't Ancients.

Why do they need to move it any where, it works through the gate.

Your still assuming the Wraith have stargates on all their planets.

Regardless of how they make their ships they are still more tied to planets than the replicators were.

You mean the Replicators who strip planets of the natural resources and colonies as opposed to the Wraith whom live mainly in space on large Hive ships?

Also it says in the Omnipedia that when used on a galactic scale the waves from each gate meet. I've never heard it mentioned in the show

thats because it's never mentioned in show. And again your assuming the Wraith have stargates on all their planets. And your also assuming the Ancients had sufficient information on the Wraith anatomy to configure the weapon to target only iratus DNA and not destroy human DNA in the process.
Again, if it could have been done it would have been done.

but it does make sense when thinking back to why Baal was so worried otherwise he could have flew in to deep space. So it perhaps wouldn't have needed them to be even close to a gate.

He also could have burried a gate on a planet to prevent its activation. Evidently he's not that smart.

First it was actually the poor people of the village who suffered if any one went in to his lab. Second he had already met our kind, new we were explorers and still planted those traps in our own back yard where we were almost certain to stumble on to them

First it was actually Antonius who was killed, and if remember Antonius was the one who opened the lab and led Mitchell and Jackson into it. So the trespasser was killed not the innocent villagers.

Secondly if your reffering to Merlin he created these devices hundreds if not thousands of years ago. And yes he had a right to defend his work despite our own exploritive nature. And I would hardly call a world in an entire Galaxy "in our back yard" and we didn't "stumble" onto them, we went looking for his lab, were warned of the curse and still went in. Its like seeing a "beware of the dog" sign, breaking into a house and getting bitten only to say "no-one told me there was a dog!". Idiocy.

Morality is only an issue when being assended by an Ancient and its been stated in the show as such. How can you regard the show as fact in one case and completely ignore it in another.

Morality is a requirement of Ascension on our own. Fact. Morality is not a requirement to stay ascended. Fact.

I regard it as fact in one case because it states it as fact

DANIEL: And ascension requires that somebody be pure of spirit. One must be good to the very core to achieve enlightenment, so how did someone like Anubis ascend?
(Jim claps his hands.)
JIM: Now he’s getting it!
DANIEL: Oma helps people ascend, but she’d never help somebody like Anubis!
JIM: Maybe not on purpose.
DANIEL: What, you’re saying he tricked her somehow?

The Fact Anubis stayed ascended after proves its not a requirement to stay ascended. I base my arguments on Fact, with evidence.

Anubis is the perfect example unless your surgesting the worst goauld conviently became morale just in time to ascend and then did a complete 180 and went back to evil. He tricked Oma and if morality was truely an issue trickery wouldn't be possible.

Please read my posts in full. I said this exact thing previously. Its required you are good a heart to achieve enlightenment on your own. If the Ori were all acting like Goa'ulds how did they Ascend then? Simple they were good before hand, and became corrupted afterwards. Unless specificallt addressed in show down the line what is said previous remains fact.

My point was actually plausable considering their nature, speculation and discussion is what this forum is about last time I checked so perhaps you would prefer a different forum if its not to your liking.

Backed up with evidence perhaps. We're in an argument about the reasons why the Ancients lost. And while I proved it was numbers you claimed it was not numbers but other factors for which you offered no evidence or proof. So were you just bullsh*ting?

As for null-points the only one I can see is you continually arguing that morality is an issue for ascention going against all evidence in the show and what is established fact.

This is an established fact

DANIEL: And ascension requires that somebody be pure of spirit. One must be good to the very core to achieve enlightenment, so how did someone like Anubis ascend?
(Jim claps his hands.)
JIM: Now he’s getting it!
DANIEL: Oma helps people ascend, but she’d never help somebody like Anubis!
JIM: Maybe not on purpose.
DANIEL: What, you’re saying he tricked her somehow?

what your arguing for as not been addressed in show yet so how can you claim its a fact? Simple you can't.

The only thing you have proved is that numbers was a factor to which I havn't disagreed with. But by your own examples you've proved my point in that numbers wasn't the only factor and as I have always maintained I think there is still more to know.

So how have I proved numbers wasn't the only factor? Please provide evidence. I have provided evidence from in show that proves it was numbers.
You have provided nothing but rampant speculation and your own 'ideas' on what happened without so much as a single bit of evidence to back you up.
Bravo

[Harekin]

EVIL PEOPLE CAN ASCEND!! Kalek was on the verge of ascending BY HIMSELF and he said all he could think about was killing for the first time.