someone probaly knows the answer to this question

[knowles2]

But then where did they get their food supply in the first place from. The image in rising showed the ancients were in controle of the entire galexy and then suddenly the wraith started to take over. But from what we have seen of the wraith technology it would of took thousands of vessels and so where did they come from. Where did they get their food supplies from. After all the humans planets were under protecton of the ancients. I think we have got face it the wraith simple having more number simpley do not make sense and it would be nice for the writers to fully explain the events which took place back then. May a sought of flash back epidsode. Or a epidsode where we see a sought hologram recording which show the majour events of the war and leave may be if well writen could answer some of our questions but leave more questions then answers.

[Nero]

But then who told us that they were peaceful, whole sorry was that the ancients again how do we no they just have not been lying all the long after all we know that the alanteans sure their entire civilisation destroyed, perhaps after they arrive in the pegasus galexy they could of change grown much more agressive than the milkyway ancients.

Except the Ancients that returned to the Milky-way then learned to ascend. You need to be pure of spirit and a good person to be able to ascend on your own. Hence the Ancients having the rule of not helping people(How Anubus became ascended)

From the spoilers they seem to have wipe out the asurans just for excisting and that does not sound like any ancient we have met so far in the milkyway galexy.

Did you even read the spoilers? Here's some quotes

"They are artificial lifeforms that evolved from a Lantean experiment to create powerful and aggressive nanites to attack the Wraith on a cellular level"

Note 'Agressive' there. But wait theres more..

"When the Lanteans realized their experiment had gotten out of hand, they attacked this new race with their fleet of warships and nearly wiped them out."


Do we know what they did to get "out of hand"? Wonder why they got out of hand ........read on to find out......

Niam wants Weir to

"rewrite their aggressive nature out of their base code. He wishes to quell a rage that is built into his very nature."

So they are naturally agressive? Prone to Rage? Oh and to answer the question of who started the Fight read on......

"When the team awakens, Niam reveals that they are in space. The Asuran city is an Ancient city ship, like Atlantis, and with their wealth of Z.P.M.s they are able to make it fly. The ship enters hyperspace. It's destination: Atlantis. They will finish what they started, destroying the original home of their creators."


Finish what they started eh?

And you cannot compare the replicators to the ansurans, the replicators were programme with one aim to replicate and originally to protect reese, why the ansurans were programme to kill and possible to continuely to evolve so any counter measure deploy against them, they can evolve against and against any enemy.

I suggest you re-watch SG-1 and look at the Human-Form replicators, because they ARE THE SAME AS THE ASURANS! So yes, we can compare exactly.

But even the wraith seem to be unwilling to even talk about the war or how they won.

in all those minutes of conversations that took place between the Humans and Wraith?

If I defeated the most advance race in the universe I would defferently be going around bosting about it something the wraith do not seem to do.

How big of you. What point does this make?

Also the wraith in rising sure the hand held scanner seem afraid of that technology and why should wraith be affraid if they already defeated them before.

Because they know the Ancient tech is more powerfull than theirs. Wouldn't you be scared if your only 'food' source suddenly had access to powerfull technology and weapons in order to fight back?

No their are to many unanswers questions. The anicents left the pegasus and left atlantis behind, so that they could return the defeat the wraith in the future , yet they never did.

There are no unanswered questions at all. You just missed loads in episodes that explain all this.

*A Plague overcame the Milky Way galaxy and so the Ancients left for Pegasus.
*While there The Ancients were defeated by the Wraith due to sheer numbers.
*They returned to the Milky Way Galaxy and used the Dakara weapon to recreate life. They then learned how to ascend.

The ancient left a awful lot technology behind, yet the wraith in the last ten thousand years seem to not of even touch any of it. The gene could be explanation but then they have already shown the wraith are quite adavnce in the genetics technology and I am pretty sure that they be able to identifie the gene. They seem not even care about more advance hyperdrive tech until we arrive.

They only want to feed, end of story. When you've defeated your only enemy you don't waste time searching for new technology which would serve no purpose.

No their are a lot of stuff we do not know. One thing I do know never trust the winners of a war and never trust the losers of a war they both tend to make themselfs look better than they actually were and they both tend to lie about events.

Like how Nazi Germany was made to "look better than they actually were" after the Second World War? Nuh-uh! Everything we have seen indicates Ancient tech is superior to Wraith tech, the only way they could have lost is through numbers.

[Nero]

My gosh, the number of Wraith and ships that we are talking about that would have been required to defeat the Ancients is completely absurd.

Well how big for a fact was the Ancient pressence in the Pegasus Galaxy? Because unless you know that figure for sure, then saying "The number of Wraith and Ships required would be absurd" it's in itself an absurd/completely incorrect statement.

So much for people basing a discussion on facts.

There would have needed to of been thousands if not tens of thousands of Wraith ships available during the war to even possibly make it work, and even then it shouldn‘t have.

Can we see your source that confirms there would have been this many needed? How many ships did the Ancients have by the way? Or are you just gonna speculate on that too and try pass it off as fact?

And how exactly were the Wraith supposed to amass that large of a fleet without the Ancients knowing until after it was too late? I agree the whole Ancient/Wraith war plot helps provide us with a story, but it isn’t even close to being plausible.

The Ancients had seeded life in the Galaxy, do you know that they were activly scanning on the off chance someone had an Armada under construction?

With all the fully manned and powered city ships, outposts, and other vessels the Ancients had at their disposal

How many did they have so? And can we see your proof. I've counted 2 City Ships, 1 Repair/construction base, 1 failed experimental Weapon, 1 Satelite weapon and 2 Capital ships. We know the Wraith had at least 60 or so ships during the end of the War(Most likely more)

Of those
*One Cityship was abandoned, while the other Cityship(Atlantis) was besieged for many years, depleated of weapons, sunk and then Abandoned also.
*The Repair/construction base was abandoned.
*The Satelite Weapon was damaged and knocked offline.
*The Project Arcturas weapon killed the Ancients who used it.
*One Aurora Class ship was heavily Damaged, depleated of weapons and offline. The Other was abandoned relativily intact within the Repair/Contruction base which says alot for the situation the Ancients must have been to abandon an easily repaired and operational Warship.

We know one for one Ancient warships were more powerfull, but what about 2 v 1, or 3 v1 etc. etc. The Ancient hologram itself explains all this, right before it explains the Wraith defeated them!

It’s not as if the Wraith built/grew thousands of hive ships on one planet and then simultaneously powered them all up one day and decided to come after the Ancients.

Why not? The Priors seem to have a pretty easy time putting a Village of 10,000 to work mining minerals & building 6 ships all in the one area. Why not the Wraith who can go for Years without feeding?

They would have needed to of been culling the galaxy for food and stocking up on resources in order to build up such forces. But we are supposed to believe that the mighty Ancients were so engrossed in themselves that they didn’t have a clue as to what was going on even thought they themselves were all over the galaxy. Great show, I just don’t buy the back story.

As again explained IN THE SHOW the Ancients are a peacefull race with respect for ALL life. In ancient hologram explains how they tried to negotiate a truce with the Wraith but were ambushed.

Quote from Rising

ALT-WEIR: The Atlanteans sent a delegation protected by their most powerful warships in the faint hope of negotiating a truce. One on one, the Atlantean ships were more powerful, but the Wraith were so many. After that great battle, it was only a matter of time

Also, the Ancients should have had more than enough resources to maintain a constant supply of drones, which is really all they needed to destroy Wraith ships.

Quote from The Siege Part 2

EVERETT: Still, I would like to see for myself how the Ancients lost the first time -- to try to avoid their mistakes.

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir. We could do that. (He walks over to the control console and activates it. The doors to the room close, the lights go out and a three dimensional map of the galaxy appears above their heads, showing hundreds of blue stars.) This is the status of the Pegasus galaxy before the Ancients encountered the Wraith. The blue stars represent systems either inhabited by or protected by the Ancients. Then ... (he presses something on the console and all the stars turn red) this is how it looked after they fought for almost a hundred years.

EVERETT: Until Atlantis was all that was left.

SHEPPARD: Yes, sir. That's when the siege began. (The map homes in on the solar system of the planet on which Atlantis is based.) For several more years, the Atlanteans were able to hold off their attackers, relying on the city's shield and superior weaponry, including the weapons satellite system. No matter how many Wraith ships they destroyed, more kept coming here. They could win almost every battle but they saw no way to win the war, so they submerged the city and left. (He deactivates the display and the lights come back on.) That's it. That's the story -- but the picture is pretty clear.

Ancients had the time to build massive warships, they should have had the time to build automated drone manufacturing facilities on planets that were out of reach by the Wraith.

Absolutely pure specualtion and assumption. I have yet to see facts.

Obviously the materials needed to make drones were abundant enough to be found in both galaxies

Oh Abundant is it? It can be found somewhere in an entire Galaxy....very abundant indeed. It might have only been available on one planet in each Galaxy for all we know.

The planet/s it may or may not have been aquired from in Pegasus may have been to first to fall to the Wraith. So its not "Obvious" at all. Nor have you any proof the resources were "abundant". Maybe they were running out of the Material needed for drones so started building weapons like in Arcturas prototype and Satelite weapon.

Ancients had the means to go wherever they needed to get them. It was just a matter of walking through the stargate, even if the planet in question had an eight chevron address.

What if the Wraith were on this occupied planet and had an Iris in place? what kind of resources Material and Manpower wise would be required? Would it be worth the risk to lives given that the situation they were in was already hopeless after their Fleet was annihilated?

[Nero]

But then where did they get their food supply in the first place from. The image in rising showed the ancients were in controle of the entire galexy and then suddenly the wraith started to take over.

No, it showed the Planets the Ancients were in control of or protecting. Its not the Entire Galaxy. And its wasn't "suddenly", the latter picture where all the planets are taken over by the Wraith is after a hundred years.

But from what we have seen of the wraith technology it would of took thousands of vessels and so where did they come from. Where did they get their food supplies from.

The ships were built. Simple. They got their food from the Worlds they conquered(which is why they attacked in the first place). It really is that simple.

After all the humans planets were under protecton of the ancients.

You know for a fact EVERY planet in the Pegasus Galaxy was under the Protection of the Ancients?

I think we have got face it the wraith simple having more number simpley do not make sense and it would be nice for the writers to fully explain the events which took place back then.

Despite the Ancient Ancient hologram saying it was numbers, despite the Humans finding evidence it was numbers, despite the Ancients themselves in a flashback episode saying it was numbers you still want people to "face facts" that it wasn't numbers.

You'd want to look up what the word "fact" means

May a sought of flash back epidsode.

perhaps like the episode 'before I Sleep' was? However this states everything I have said which you deem to be "not fact".

Or a epidsode where we see a sought hologram recording which show the majour events of the war

Like Rising Part 1 and Rising Part 2 did? But you dont believe those.

and leave may be if well writen could answer some of our questions but leave more questions then answers.

Not really.

[knowles2]

first of all you are wrong about only being able to ascend by being good.

Anubis son was going to ascend and he was not exactly good now was he. Secondly the ori ascended and as far as we know they always been evil and wanted to hunt down non believers.

Whole yeah the asurans got out of hand, or was it out of the ancient controle so they could not use them as weapons against the wraith. If the asurans were enemy of the wraith then why are wraith still living, from what I have herd the asurans seem to have more than enough resources to take care of the wraith.

We are prone to aggressive behaviour aret we, so why cannot the asurans be prone to aggressive behaviour, and they want to wipe out atlantis, I see nothing about them wanting to wipe out us, it just that we will chose to become their enemy to defend atlantis.
But I also read spoilers which seem to point to the ancient sending their war fleet after the asurans, so far I have herd nothing about the asurans being the aggressers and from the hotzone virus was programme not to attack the ancients and so if the asurans can rewrite that part of their programming, why not their aggressive sub routines and remember the ansurans back when they were first created ask the ancients to rewrite aggressive sub routines out of their programming but refuse, why did they refuse to do that.

Uh but you did not mention the human form replicaters, they are a different story. The original have a design flaw in it. Once this flaw was fix, they seem to be just like humand beings, infact they were so like humans that when, what was his name six, sith something like that fell in love with carter and carter betray him, he lost control of his anger, that just sound all to humans to me.

Yeah we have not really talk that much to a wraith, but then it only took apophis and Ra whole ten second before they started bosting about how they were gods.

No but when you are farmers you tend to look for a way to get more crops and so you would of thought that when their food sources began to dry up they would go looking for more humans and infact their would of probably been feirce competiton between the hives to find new feeding grounds but their was none of this as far as we no, seem a bit strange, that they would rarther go in hybination than raid ancients bases which seem to be just hanging around.

Actually they learn to ascend in the pegasus galexy because they set up that whole sancture. Also they set of the dakara weapon just after they left to the pegasus galexy, and that why they left for the pegasus galexy. Again that just sheer specuation that the ancients were defeated by sheer number that what the ancient say about the war but then why did the ancients let their number to grow that large , why did they let them build the number of vessels which would be needed to defeat the ancients through pure strength. Also they would need a extremly large number of wraiths to man all the vessels so where did they get the humans neccessery to freed all these wraith with out the ancient knowing what they were up, remember ancients were also surprise, even know they controle the entire galexy.
No I am still one hundred percent sure their was a other elements to the defeat of the ancients, other element which we have not been told about yet.

[Nero]

first of all you are wrong about only being able to ascend by being good.

Anubis son was going to ascend and he was not exactly good now was he. Secondly the ori ascended and as far as we know they always been evil and wanted to hunt down non believers.

Anubus was already ascended when he created Khalek. So he programmed the method into Khalek. Doesn't change the fact in order to Achieve it on your own you need to be good.

From 'Threads'

DANIEL: And ascension requires that somebody be pure of spirit. One must be good to the very core to achieve enlightenment, so how did someone like Anubis ascend?

On on a point of the Ori it was AFTER they ascended that they believed they should be worshiped as gods, not before.

Whole yeah the asurans got out of hand, or was it out of the ancient controle so they could not use them as weapons against the wraith.

The Asurans attacked the Ancients. Full stop.

If the asurans were enemy of the wraith then why are wraith still living, from what I have herd the asurans seem to have more than enough resources to take care of the wraith.

The Asurans were nearly wiped out by the Attack counter-attack. And the Asurans face the same problem with the Wraith the Ancients did. The Wraith have everwhelming numbers. But it even says in the spoilers the Asurans have now got a plan to eliminate the Wraith.

We are prone to aggressive behaviour aret we, so why cannot the asurans be prone to aggressive behaviour,

Its an aggressive nature not just slight tendancy. Theres a huge difference. Not all humans are of an aggressive nature. However all Asurans have this aggressiveness programmed into them

And they want to wipe out atlantis, I see nothing about them wanting to wipe out us, it just that we will chose to become their enemy to defend atlantis.

You orginial Quote

You: From the spoilers they seem to have wipe out the asurans just for excisting and that does not sound like any ancient we have met so far in the milkyway galexy

I merely provided you with proof it was infact the Asurans who started the conflict when you claimed it was the Ancients.

But I also read spoilers which seem to point to the ancient sending their war fleet after the asurans

After they got out of hand. Do you read my posts in full?

so far I have herd nothing about the asurans being the aggressers

Except for the quote i provided you which states the Asurans want to finish WHAT THEY STARTED Look up the word "started" please.

and from the hotzone virus was programme not to attack the ancients and so if the asurans can rewrite that part of their programming

Err IT WAS programmed to attack the ancients.

why not their aggressive sub routines

The nanites in Hot Zone are not the Asurans. They were created by the Asurans. Reprogramming themselves is obviously beyond either their ability as stated in the spoiers

what they themselves are unable to do

and remember the ansurans back when they were first created ask the ancients to rewrite aggressive sub routines out of their programming but refuse, why did they refuse to do that.

Err the exact quote

which the Lanteans long ago refused to do: rewrite their aggressive nature out of their base code. He wishes to quell a rage that is built into his very nature.

Where does it say the Asurans asked the Ancients to rewrite. All its says is the Ancients refused to probably because they had created life and felt it wrong to then rewrite that life as they sought fit. Then when the Asurans got out of hand and attacked the Ancients they were left with little choice but to defend themselves.

Uh but you did not mention the human form replicaters, they are a different story. The original have a design flaw in it.

I said replicators plural, which includes all forms of Replicator. And how you didnt naturally assume I'd be comparing the Human form Asurans with their Human form Replicator counter-parts I don't know.

And yes they have an Agressive & Ragefull design flaw - the same one the Asurans have. You just backed up my point.

Once this flaw was fix, they seem to be just like humand beings, infact they were so like humans that when, what was his name six, sith something like that fell in love with carter and carter betray him, he lost control of his anger, that just sound all to humans to me.

It was fifth, and even with this design apparently corrected he still attacks entire civilisations, captures and tortures the Woman he loves and procedes violate her mind by copying it and building his own version. Flaw corrected alright!! Besides what fifth has to do with this you haven't pointed out as he was the exception and we know the Asurans still have this flaw. You didnt happen to mention Fifth's brethren did ya who were all still Phsyco and some of whom were created after this flaw was apparently corrected? i.e 1st - 4th & 6th & 7th? No?

Yeah we have not really talk that much to a wraith, but then it only took apophis and Ra whole ten second before they started bosting about how they were gods.

The Wraith aren't trying to be gods. Totally invalid arguement.

No but when you are farmers you tend to look for a way to get more crops and so you would of thought that when their food sources began to dry up they would go looking for more humans and infact their would of probably been feirce competiton between the hives to find new feeding grounds but their was none of this as far as we no, seem a bit strange, that they would rarther go in hybination than raid ancients bases which seem to be just hanging around.

Watch the series again please. The only place in Pegasus information about Earth etc is stored is in Atlantis! And they tried to capture that already.

Actually they learn to ascend in the pegasus galexy because they set up that whole sancture. Also they set of the dakara weapon just after they left to the pegasus galexy, and that why they left for the pegasus galexy.

From Rising Part 1

Hologram: The Atlantis Stargate was the one and only link back to Earth from this galaxy, and those who remained used it to return to that world that was once home. There, the last survivors of Atlantis lived out the remainder of their lives

So they came back from Atlantis and lived out their lives until ascending.

From Threads

JIM: I know. That's a tough one. (He slides his new newspaper across the counter to Daniel.) Speaking of which, have you seen the latest? (Daniel opens the new copy of The Ascended Times. The main headline reads: "Secret Plan Revealed. Anubis' dastardly plot to regain Ancient Weapon of Destruction".) He's a crafty one. Really knows the ins and outs of the rules. I give him three to one odds to succeed. Wanna know the irony of it all? That device was originally used by the Ancients to create life in the Milky Way ... well, recreate it after the whole plague thing. No kidding. Now it all gets undone with the push of one button, leaving Anubis to recreate things all over to his own liking. There's a waste of a million-odd years of evolution, huh? (He turns around to the customers in the diner and calls out to them.) I say someone should really do something to stop him! (The customers take no notice. Jim waves his hand dismissively at them and turns back to Daniel.) But no-one will. (He calls out to the kitchen.) Can I get a coffee?

It was only used to re-create all life in the Milky way. Never to create the original humans on the planets.

Again that just sheer specuation that the ancients were defeated by sheer number that what the ancient say about the war

Its not specualtion at all. Its direct evidence from the series in the form of quotes from Ancient build Holograms and Ancients themselves. That is not "speculation" that is FACT. please provide EVIDENCE to the contrary.
You have yet to provide any evidence infact unlike myself who have backed up my points with actuall quotes from the shows you claim to watch and understand

but then why did the ancients let their number to grow that large , why did they let them build the number of vessels which would be needed to defeat the ancients through pure strength.

Because the Ancients were a peacefull race - they tried to negotiate a truce with the Wraith.

Also they would need a extremly large number of wraiths to man all the vessels

Wheres you proof on how large a hiveship crew is? whats the exact number? Have you any evidence other than the size of the ship? Because the asgard can run their ships with one person.

so where did they get the humans neccessery to freed all these wraith

Watch 38 Minutes please. The Wraith evolved on a world where humans lived. Could have been billions for all we know.

with out the ancient knowing what they were up, remember ancients were also surprise, even know they controle the entire galexy.

For the last time it was not the entire Galaxy they controlled. It was a certain number of planets. How many planets in the Pegasus Galaxy? And when you seen the Map with the entire Galaxy they supposedly "controlled" then where was the red one to show where the Wraith started out from?

No I am still one hundred percent sure their was a other elements to the defeat of the ancients, other element which we have not been told about yet.

They lost the war with the Wraith due to numbers. Its an established Fact. Established by the Ancients themselves.

[knowles2]

Actually it were not design to infect ancients and infact doctor consider using the rectro virus as sought vaccine and cure but they knew that would take to long to take hold on and so would not of work in time to save mackay life and that when mackay came up with the electro magnet pulse option. Did you even watch that episode.

Again even befor they became ascended the ori were persecauting people who disagree with them they drove the alterans out of their own galexy that sound pretty evil to me.

But what you are saying is the ancients wanted to destroy them instead of just reprogramme them that does sound the ancient we have met.

[Nero]

Actually it were not design to infect ancients and infact doctor consider using the rectro virus as sought vaccine and cure but they knew that would take to long to take hold on and so would not of work in time to save mackay life and that when mackay came up with the electro magnet pulse option. Did you even watch that episode.

Yes but evidently I miss quoted. It is Humans. However the reason they don't use the Gene Therapy is because its only works on 48% of people.

Here's a summary anyway. They find the virus in an Ancient lad which is completely disconnected from all other systems in Atlantis for safely. The Virus is accidentally released and begins killing people(People with very similar physiology to Ancients no less). So the Asurans released a virus to terrorise humans before killing them. Further proof they are insane and evil.

McKAY: Yeah, they're no bigger than a single-celled organism -- although instead of having a sole purpose of curing a disease or mending a blood vessel ...

BECKETT: ... the virus is programmed to terrorise its victims by tapping into their visual cortex and then rupturing an artery in their brain ...

McKAY: ... infecting others along the way as they can.

BECKETT: There's one good thing: I doubt they can multiply. I don't know how many nanites it takes to kill a human but eventually I imagine they'll spread themselves too thin


And we know the Ancients didn't make it

McKAY: What, so wiping out the Wraith's food supply was a last-ditch consideration?

BECKETT: I don't believe that for a moment. The Ancients would never create something like this.

McKAY: It doesn't explain the visions either.

WEIR: OK, for the moment, who built the virus is really the least of our concerns.

Again even befor they became ascended the ori were persecauting people who disagree with them they drove the alterans out of their own galexy that sound pretty evil to me.

Where did you hear this? Have you got evidence to back up your claim please?

FANIS: We have uncovered evidence that we believe proves a race of humans predates our supposed creating by the ori.

VALA: Excuse me…Daniel…what if these gods…the Ori…are the people left behind by the Alterraians.

JACKSON: You think they ascended?

VALA: It's possible…the alterraians left a long, long time ago. And what we know of… the Ancients they learned to evolve and ascend. What if the people who remained here did too…


Also from Gateworld Summary

Vala theorizes that the Ori are those people left behind in this galaxy by the Ancients, who like the Ancients in our galaxy learned to ascend. The two may even be of the same original species -- the Alterans.

But what you are saying is the ancients wanted to destroy them instead of just reprogramme them that does sound the ancient we have met.

After they created a virus to terrorise and kill all human life. And i didnt say the Ancients just wanted to destroy them - please re-read my post. I said they had created life and then because of their fundemental respect of life refused to just rewrite parts that lifeform as they sought fit.

[ek_elder_common]

couldnt it be that the ppl that made the virus were trying to stop the wraith by killing the ancients? as far as we know the wraith can only feed on humans..it is possible to have more than one enemy at a time in war...

[Gate Master]

Im still not convinced by the numbers arguement and hope there is more to the story. Not to mention that the writers have done a complete 180 on what they deem plausable. In Sg1 the goauld relatively small in number managed to dominate a galaxy of humans through superior tech and now the most advanced race in the universe is supposed to be out matched by numbers.
Then to top it off they'll come up with some way in the end that we mere humans can suddenly defeat the wraith even with their numbers and with out full knowledge of ancient tech.

Resources for drones aside they were still were capable of producing energy weapons to destroy wraith ships and the arsurans from what i've read of the spoilers dont seem to have a problem with resources.

Even if resources were tight they had the tech to travell to other galaxy's, surely one must have the resources they needed. Also if we're talking about resources in terms of elements then at their level of tech they should be able to reorganise matter in to what ever element they needed. They could also have made a strategic retreat, rebuilt their forces easily and returned in the ten thousand years since they left.

Plus there's the superior tech such as the dakara device which they could have used against the wraith. Especially since from their prospective Atlantis was all that remained and all other humans had been wiped out.

As for the peaceful ancients correct me if im wrong but aren't they the onces that built the death traps in avalon.
Also as for being good to ascend that was assumed at first but Daniel has since quoted the Ori as proof that you don't need to be morale to ascend . Its only necessary when an ancient is doing the ascending.

Which ever way you look at it numbers alone doesn't work with their level of tech unless they were completely useless at applying it. I suspect that the introduction of the asurans will add to how the ancients lost and that they were severely weakened by them to the point where the wraith numbers did make the difference.

[knowles2]

Spoilers a head

Well so we know the asurans are the hot Zone virus and from the spoiler the asurans evolve to become sentient. Then when I suspect the ancient refuse to reprogramme them the asurans probably decided they would try and take that knowlege and that when the ancients decided on wiping them out. Why did they not reprograme them is may because cannot be reprogramme because the violence sube routene is the key part of their programming and if you take that away you destroy sentients.

And that line

this unlike any technology we have seen before.
well probably forever remain a big fat ugly plot hole but never mind it is one of many in stargate atlantis.

and just to prove the asurans were created by the here a quot of the gate spoilers section

The Asurans, a race of powerful artificial lifeforms who were created by the Ancients thousands of years ago and who the Atlantis team first met in Season Three's "Progeny," have conquered Atlantis. The Asurans are made up of trillions of microscopic nanites, and their abilities lead the team to believe that they are the original technology on which the human-form Replicators were later based (SG-1: "Unnatural Selection").

destroying the original home of their creators.

The Asurans, as Niam reveals to Dr. Weir, are not biologically Lantean. They are artificial lifeforms that evolved from a Lantean experiment to create powerful and aggressive nanites to attack the Wraith on a cellular level ("Hot Zone"). But the microscopic creatures came together to form increasingly larger and more complex organisms, eventually imitating their creators to become human in appearance. When the Lanteans realized their experiment had gotten out of hand, they attacked this new race with their fleet of warships and nearly wiped them out.

The spoiler are a bit contradictory because they also say they were united as a people once and were only split because they disagree over what actions to take during the war but the from the above quotes it seem the ancients sent their war fleet after them when they were first created. Also it doctor becket must of been wrong about the hotzone virus not being able to replicat unleast the one they encouter was a new version of the weapon.

No sory yep is does tell us the ancient migrated from the ori galexy, do not know where I got that war bit from.

[Nero]

Im still not convinced by the numbers arguement and hope there is more to the story.

Its established fact within the show, said by both the Charaters in show and the Ancients. And proved numerous times. Doesn't require you to be convinced for it to be true.

Not to mention that the writers have done a complete 180 on what they deem plausable. In Sg1 the goauld relatively small in number managed to dominate a galaxy of humans through superior tech

Yes a relatively small number of Goa'uld who controlled Armies of Millions if not Billions, not to mention massive fleets of powerfull Warships and technology beyond anything previously seen by Humans.

Besides this they had no co-ordinated Enemy to worry about until the most the Jaffa rose up against them. And then what happened? Oh yeah they were beaten by superior numbers.

and now the most advanced race in the universe is supposed to be out matched by numbers.

War is war. Numbers are a huge factor. Look at Germany during the second World War. Their technology and war materials were superior to anything the Allies had(until near the end) however the Russians drove them back through numbers. The Russians literally through Millions of men into the front line taking massive casualties but we all know the end result dont we?

Then to top it off they'll come up with some way in the end that we mere humans can suddenly defeat the wraith even with their numbers and with out full knowledge of ancient tech.

The Wraith numbers are now diminished, they have not got enough food to sustain them all and they are in the middle of a cival war so yeah we have a better chance now than the Ancients did then.

Resources for drones aside they were still were capable of producing energy weapons to destroy wraith ships

And what may I ask do you construct these energy weapons with? Magically appearing Resources?

the arsurans from what i've read of the spoilers dont seem to have a problem with resources.

Yeah because for the 10,000 or so years the Ancients have been gone/defeated the Asurans have continued to exist unattacked by the Wraith. It doesn't surprise me they can build ZPMs.

Even if resources were tight they had the tech to travell to other galaxy's, surely one must have the resources they needed. Also if we're talking about resources in terms of elements then at their level of tech they should be able to reorganise matter in to what ever element they needed.

We don't know how fast their Hyperdrive is. For all we know it could have taken years for Atlantis to reach Pegasus. And this is not Star Trek where they can just "replicate" stuff.

They could also have made a strategic retreat, rebuilt their forces easily and returned in the ten thousand years since they left

Except they learned to ascend. Why wage war when you can achieve eternal enlightenment?

Plus there's the superior tech such as the dakara device which they could have used against the wraith. Especially since from their prospective Atlantis was all that remained and all other humans had been wiped out.

The humans had not been wiped out, only the remaining Ancients. The Dakara weapon was built in the Milky May. You seen the size of it, who knows how long it took to build. The whole resources thing comes in here aswell.

And besides the Dakara weapon only works on planets and local space around a planet - the Wraith lived on Hive Ships traveling through space. The likelyhood of this weapon succeeding wouldn't even justify its construction.

As for the peaceful ancients correct me if im wrong but aren't they the onces that built the death traps in avalon.

Nope just Merlin, and thats to protect his work. Given the fact he is building a device to stop the Ori in their mad quest to enslave the Galaxy its justified.

Also as for being good to ascend that was assumed at first but Daniel has since quoted the Ori as proof that you don't need to be morale to ascend . Its only necessary when an ancient is doing the ascending.

The Ori and The Ancients were both the same race - The Alterans. They learned to Ascend seperately but it was after the Ascension that the Ori began to believe they should be worshipped. It was the power that corrupted them, doesn't change the fact they could have been good people before hand.

Which ever way you look at it numbers alone doesn't work with their level of tech unless they were completely useless at applying it.

How so? Please explain. Because it is said time and time again in the show that numbers was the Factor. The Wraith had alot more ships and took heavy casualties. If you have such a hard time believing WHAT IS PROVEN IN THE SHOW then you have a problem.

I suspect that the introduction of the asurans will add to how the ancients lost and that they were severely weakened by them to the point where the wraith numbers did make the difference.

So your saying numbers alone couldn't do it, but here your saying numbers alone COULD do it? Your contradicting yourself big time.

[Nero]

Spoilers a head

Well so we know the asurans are the hot Zone virus and from the spoiler the asurans evolve to become sentient. Then when I suspect the ancient refuse to reprogramme them the asurans probably decided they would try and take that knowlege and that when the ancients decided on wiping them out. Why did they not reprograme them is may because cannot be reprogramme because the violence sube routene is the key part of their programming and if you take that away you destroy sentients.

Or as I said they felt it immoral to tamper with the life they had created.

and just to prove the asurans were created by the here a quot of the gate spoilers section

The Asurans, a race of powerful artificial lifeforms who were created by the Ancients thousands of years ago and who the Atlantis team first met in Season Three's "Progeny," have conquered Atlantis. The Asurans are made up of trillions of microscopic nanites, and their abilities lead the team to believe that they are the original technology on which the human-form Replicators were later based (SG-1: "Unnatural Selection").

Told you they were the Genesis of the replicators.

So despite you saying

destroying the original home of their creators.

The Asurans, as Niam reveals to Dr. Weir, are not biologically Lantean. They are artificial lifeforms that evolved from a Lantean experiment to create powerful and aggressive nanites to attack the Wraith on a cellular level ("Hot Zone"). But the microscopic creatures came together to form increasingly larger and more complex organisms, eventually imitating their creators to become human in appearance. When the Lanteans realized their experiment had gotten out of hand, they attacked this new race with their fleet of warships and nearly wiped them out.

We've been over this - here i'm not writing it again - go read my post on these spoilers. And also read the part in the spoiler where its say the Asurans are going to FINISH WHAT THEY STARTED and that the Ancients attacked them after THEY HAD GOTTEN OUT OF HAND

And also beside the fact they are mostly genocidal mainiacs who created a virus to destroy human life and are infact the same as the replicators if not worse.

The spoiler are a bit contradictory because they also say they were united as a people once and were only split because they disagree over what actions to take during the war

Read the spoiler again -

There Oberoth explains that they are an off-shoot from the Ancients who long ago inhabited Atlantis. Though their race was once united, the Asurans left when the Lanteans did not heed their council during the war with the Wraith. The Asurans resettled on this world thousands of years ago.

This is what Oberoth explains to them. Oberoth being an Asuran no less. And this is only so they can learn the location of Atlantis. Once they learn the location what do they do? Oh yeah....set out to destroy it! to finish what they started

but the from the above quotes it seem the ancients sent their war fleet after them when they were first created.

After they got out of hand. Did you read the spoilers? The Asurans started the conflict, we find this out when they go to finish WHAT THEY STARTED

Feel like a Parrot having to say this over and over.

Also it doctor becket must of been wrong about the hotzone virus not being able to replicat unleast the one they encouter was a new version of the weapon.

As I said the Hot Zone virus was created BY THE ASURANS, it is not the actual Asuran nanites.

No sory yep is does tell us the ancient migrated from the ori galexy, do not know where I got that war bit from.

Never argued they migrated from the same Galaxy as the Ori. I argued against this made up little story of yours below...

Again even befor they became ascended the ori were persecauting people who disagree with them they drove the alterans out of their own galexy that sound pretty evil to me.

Now where did you hear this?

by the way we don't know that the Galaxy currently occuppied by the Ori was their original Galaxy either.

[knowles2]

[QUOTE=Nero]Its established fact within the show, said by both the Charaters in show and the Ancients. And proved numerous times. Doesn't require you to be convinced for it to be true.


A fact which seem not to make that much sense andI think people are taking the ancient word as the truth and nothing but the truth, however I would rarther add a pinch of sult losers of a war often lie and until I see a epidsode which answers these question I will not believe the wraith defeated the ancient by number alone.

How they create thousands of vessels with out the ancient knowing.
How did they freed millions of wraith which of been needed with out the ancient knowing about it.
Why did not the ancients use their stargate technolgy and building a base in the milkyway to resupply them.

And remember they never intended to ascend and that why they left atlantis intact and ready as a base for their return. Why did not they use the drones in antartica rearm atlantis.

Prove mean showing evidence, the only evidence we have receive is from a ancient who let just say had a repetation to protect, and the attackers have not said a word about the war and we have seen no other recordings, no reports, no mention on why the ancient even thought that they would be able to talk to the wraith in peice when it would of meant the distruction of their entire civilisation so why did they even think they could talk.

No we have been given a very simple a very short version on what happen during a hundred year war and from one side. This would not sound up in a court and it probably would not even get to court on this evidence.

War is war. Numbers are a huge factor. Look at Germany during the second World War. Their technology and war materials were superior to anything the Allies had(until near the end) however the Russians drove them back through numbers. The Russians literally through Millions of men into the front line taking massive casualties but we all know the end result dont we?

Actually world war two was not won by numbers. Know if you know about world two then you would know that it was hitler that loss the war and not the russians that won it.

The reason won would of because these things which hitler.

Hitler order the german airforce to stop attacking the british airbases and to attack our cities, which then enable to us to rebuild the raf strength back up. This eventually allow us later during the war to resupply the russians force which made the last stand against the germand force attacking moscow and eventually repelle them.

Second majour thing hitler did would to stop the all german development of jet fighter plane for a period two years, if they kept up their research development of the fighter plane during that period they would been able to have squadrons of jet fighters operational by 1944 and at that time they could of easy of took control of the skies and then use that to bomb allies supply line and all predictions and war simulations have shown that they would of defeated the allies if they had the jet fighters operational in 1944.

Third thing was to keep overidding his generals tactical decisions and often just for pride. Like refusing to redraw the armies from around starlingrad, instead of letting them being surrounded and he even gave them the order to fight to their deaths even know the germans could have save that entire army.

The fourth mistake hitler made was going to war, when germany was not ready. At the time hitler took the german people to war, most the germans naval ships were still being constructed and most of the germans troops were still useing horses to carry their equipment and germany rearmerment was no where near complete.

It was not allies general that won the war it was not numbers no it was hitler that won the war for us.

sorry for going of topic.

[Gate Master]

Its established fact within the show, said by both the Charaters in show and the Ancients. And proved numerous times. Doesn't require you to be convinced for it to be true.

Its not fact at all just because its been addressed briefly in the show. The writers in past experiance often let you assume one thing and then surprise you with a twist in later episodes, especially where they leave things ambiguous or let some one from earth make a statement like shep, which later turns out to be an assumption on their part.

Yes a relatively small number of Goa'uld who controlled Armies of Millions if not Billions, not to mention massive fleets of powerfull Warships and technology beyond anything previously seen by Humans.


Besides this they had no co-ordinated Enemy to worry about until the most the Jaffa rose up against them. And then what happened? Oh yeah they were beaten by superior numbers.

There is no evidence that surgests the Goa'uld ever had multiple millions in their army. Aphophis was a system lord and was severly weakened after loosing a few thousand Jaffa and a couple of ships.

It was never superiour numbers of jaffa that beat them but the replicators which when destroyed the jaffa took advantage of the Goa'uld's weakened position. Had the replicators not attacked the goa'uld would never have fallen.

War is war. Numbers are a huge factor.

Numbers are only a huge factor when the enermy doesn't have an impenertrable defence and the ability to pick you off at will. It would be like an ancient army armed with swords going up against the modern day equivelent. It wouldn't matter how many there was if your out of their reach a few well placed nukes would do the trick. Or if impractical drive over the whole lot of them with tanks. Numbers only give an advantage where the enermies are more equal.

The Wraith numbers are now diminished, they have not got enough food to sustain them all and they are in the middle of a cival war so yeah we have a better chance now than the Ancients did then.

There is a serious contradiction in your arguement here. If wraith numbers are now diminished how can they not have enough food to sustain them if they did ten thousand years ago when Atlantis was all that remained.
This is also another problem with the writers version of events up to now. If the wraith were going to run short of food and end in civil war they would have done it ten thousand years ago.

And what may I ask do you construct these energy weapons with? Magically appearing Resources?

I wasn't refering to construction specifically but more that they should have build more resource efficient weapons if as every ony seems to be claiming they were running short of resources. Projectile weapons certainly aren't efficiant.
But then again this hyperthetical lack of resources is far from fact and has never been indicated specifically in any episode. Quite the oposite has been surgested in that they only reason they left was because they saw no way to win, not that they couldn't keep going and still win every battle. They just saw it as pointless, probably because the wraith by that time could build ships faster than they could. But numbers alone didn't get them in to that weakened position.

Yeah because for the 10,000 or so years the Ancients have been gone/defeated the Asurans have continued to exist unattacked by the Wraith. It doesn't surprise me they can build ZPMs.

How do you know the Asurans havn't been attacked? And where could they go for resources that the ancients couldn't?

We don't know how fast their Hyperdrive is. For all we know it could have taken years for Atlantis to reach Pegasus. And this is not Star Trek where they can just "replicate" stuff.

Who says they cant replicate stuff the asgard can and the ancients are suppose to be more advanced than they are. Plus any race that can disasemble matter atom by atom and put it back together again should beable to add a few more subatomic particles to the mix.

Except they learned to ascend. Why wage war when you can achieve eternal enlightenment?

That wasn't their initial plan as they did plan to return. Plus from the spoilers if we are taking them at their word they returned and found nothing but a primitive civilisation with no way to rebuild. This makes no sense what so ever since they had a perfectly good flying city in Pegasis. So they could have flew it back which again makes no sense why they didn't or as surgested in the hologram returned to Atlantis since they obviously had every reason at the time.

The humans had not been wiped out, only the remaining Ancients. The Dakara weapon was built in the Milky May. You seen the size of it, who knows how long it took to build. The whole resources thing comes in here aswell.

And besides the Dakara weapon only works on planets and local space around a planet - the Wraith lived on Hive Ships traveling through space. The likelyhood of this weapon succeeding wouldn't even justify its construction.

Where does the resource thing come in to it the weapon already existed, I didn't mean build another one just use the one they already had. According to the holo lady from their prospective they believed all humans had been wiped out and so only the wraith would have been destroyed for all they knew. As for being a good weapn against the wraith it wiped out the replicators and they aren't tied to planets as much as wraith are. The wraith need planets for food and if their ships are grown as implied up to now, then they would likely need organic raw materials and various minerals to grow their ships. So it would be the equivelent of wiping out their ship making capabilities.
Also they could have used the tech to build ship versions much like the asgard did but much more advanced that could wipe out a fleet with one shot including all darts.

Nope just Merlin, and thats to protect his work. Given the fact he is building a device to stop the Ori in their mad quest to enslave the Galaxy its justified.

yes Merlin or Moros under his lantean name who just happened to be head of the Atlantean council. So he uses death traps to protect research againt innocent passers by but he's not going to be inclined to attack their worst enermy.

The Ori and The Ancients were both the same race - The Alterans. They learned to Ascend seperately but it was after the Ascension that the Ori began to believe they should be worshipped. It was the power that corrupted them, doesn't change the fact they could have been good people before hand.

Whether the Ori were good or not it doesn't change the fact that its been stated in the show that morality isn't an issue for ascention, or that the Ori were held out as the example to surport this.
Its also never been discussed when the Ori required worship and its quite possible they acted like goa'ulds when they were mere advanced humans.

How so? Please explain. Because it is said time and time again in the show that numbers was the Factor. The Wraith had alot more ships and took heavy casualties. If you have such a hard time believing WHAT IS PROVEN IN THE SHOW then you have a problem.

This is where we disagree because what you regard as proven I just see as creative story telling which allows for the introduction of twists through its ambiguous nature.

So your saying numbers alone couldn't do it, but here your saying numbers alone COULD do it? Your contradicting yourself big time.

If you look back at my posts I've never said numbers weren't a factor just that they is no way the ancients could have been defeated with numbers alone. I've always said there has to be more to the story, so there is no contradiction.