X-304?

[kirmit]

Link?

there ya go http://www.stargate-tech.net/starships/earth/earth.htm

[alaskannut]

Quote an instance of it.

OK Sokar, I'll play your game, for a little while anyway...you ask us to show you where in canon the Daedalus is directly referred to as a 303, well, I ask you to name one instance where it is referred to as being anything else.

[tony]

Yah Kermit got it .. take a look straight from his source stargate-tech.net
it is a BC-303

Daedalus class Capital Ship. Daedalus is a production variant of the BC-303 class starship. Unlike the test bed X303 design, the Daedalus class is built to a common specification using technology perfected in Prometheus project. Production of the BC-303 has been discontinued in favour of the somewhat more capable Daedalus class... More...



But wait.. in the defense of the other side on that same website www.stargate-tech.net under the More options of the Daedalus it says this...



The Daedalus is the next generation warship of the USAF, assigned to the Atlantis mission in the Pegasus Galaxy to protect the Ancients city from the Wraith threat. Somewhat larger then the venerable Prometheus class Battle Cruiser prototype, Daedalus was initially described as her sister ship, heavily implying they were the same class. Further, initial blueprints on Colonel Carters computer screen in 'Mobious' were highly distinctive of the X-303 design.

However that said, Daedalus is not a 303. Daedalus looks like a 303 hull, with the command tower pounded and flattened into an almost 'hat' shape for the ships body. Then the two nacelles stretched into full sized hangers. Assuming the 'nose' of both ships are the same general size as their common design suggests, Daedalus is clearly a more massive ship (if not that much larger in dimensions).
Instead of the command tower and 'wraparound' wings that exist on the BC-303, Daedalus has a single large relatively flat surface covering her dorsal rear sector. This is covered with all manner of protrusions including a mini tower, almost like an aircraft control tower for flight operations or some such. The ships bridge is located at the very nose of the ship rather then the rear-upper quadrant as on Prometheus, though internally it looks essentially identical.

The ships nacelles have been increased in length, width and depth. The starboard nacelle has been confirmed as a hanger bay containing an estimated 8 F-302 fighters. The port bay externally looks to also be a fighter hanger. It has the same size, external door and light patterns to suggest a launching bay.

[alaskannut]

Yah Kermit got it .. take a look straight from his source stargate-tech.net
it is a BC-303

Daedalus class Capital Ship. Daedalus is a production variant of the BC-303 class starship. Unlike the test bed X303 design, the Daedalus class is built to a common specification using technology perfected in Prometheus project. Production of the BC-303 has been discontinued in favour of the somewhat more capable Daedalus class... More...



But wait.. in the defense of the other side on that same website www.stargate-tech.net under the More options of the Daedalus it says this...



The Daedalus is the next generation warship of the USAF, assigned to the Atlantis mission in the Pegasus Galaxy to protect the Ancients city from the Wraith threat. Somewhat larger then the venerable Prometheus class Battle Cruiser prototype, Daedalus was initially described as her sister ship, heavily implying they were the same class. Further, initial blueprints on Colonel Carters computer screen in 'Mobious' were highly distinctive of the X-303 design.

However that said, Daedalus is not a 303. Daedalus looks like a 303 hull, with the command tower pounded and flattened into an almost 'hat' shape for the ships body. Then the two nacelles stretched into full sized hangers. Assuming the 'nose' of both ships are the same general size as their common design suggests, Daedalus is clearly a more massive ship (if not that much larger in dimensions).
Instead of the command tower and 'wraparound' wings that exist on the BC-303, Daedalus has a single large relatively flat surface covering her dorsal rear sector. This is covered with all manner of protrusions including a mini tower, almost like an aircraft control tower for flight operations or some such. The ships bridge is located at the very nose of the ship rather then the rear-upper quadrant as on Prometheus, though internally it looks essentially identical.

The ships nacelles have been increased in length, width and depth. The starboard nacelle has been confirmed as a hanger bay containing an estimated 8 F-302 fighters. The port bay externally looks to also be a fighter hanger. It has the same size, external door and light patterns to suggest a launching bay.

Keep in mind its a rather opinionated fan site...just check out their treatise on why the Prometheus isn't a battlecruiser on the Prometheus page...things happen when an Alaskan is a head honcho somewhere

Good for a technical analysis, but keep in mind that they don't have the Star Gate Bible in their hands when they're typing that.

[tony]

but in defense of everyone.. im not sure we can take the findings of www.stargate-tech.net to heart. they could have got that information anywhere


wow nevermind.. alaskan nut just said the same thing i said yah i wasnt trying to disagree with ya because in this case I accually do very much agree with ya that it is a BC-303. im just trying to be fair to both sides

[kirmit]

I'm not too sure about their info either, from my calculations the daedalus is certainly wider than the prommie but length seems to be the same and depth is smaller than on the prommie.

[Wraith_Hunter]

Considering the fact that it takes 3 yrs to build a 9000 ton guided missile destroyer and ~1.5-2 yrs to build a ~3000ton Littoral Combat Ship for the navy, I would think it's safe to say that Daedalus has been in construction since late season 6 at least, perhaps even earlier. As such --I believe it was General Vedrine--would have been referring to it when he mentioned BC-303.

They would not have stopped building Prometheus class ships, scrapped them and then restarted from scratch building Daedalus class ships....they(the fictional USAF) could not have afforded that monetarily or otherwise--they needed those ships NOW! As such what they had on the construction line was simply retrofitted, with some necessary redesigning of some of the ship's stuctural elements, to carry the new techs that you mentioned. Take a good long look at the forward portion of the Daedalus' hull. That's an original Prometheus type hull with some changes--no forward entrance to the hangar bay, what I consider to be the primary railgun Caldwell mentioned in Aurora, and the missile cells which prometheus also has as per Beachhead--which was likely in construction at that time. The major technologies obtained since then (ion engines and Asgard hyperdrive) have been incorporated into the redesigned aft portion of the hull on which work likely began in early season 7, immediately after we got the Serrakin ion engine. This new aft section was then likely spliced on with the original aft portion being removed--stuff like this has been done in real life with Navy ships--and if we really want to get insanely fanboyish here, it could be argued that this work is responsible for the ship not being available before late S8/S1.

I admit, this is merely extrapolation and inference mixed with a little logic , but can you do better with the information at hand while remaining within the limits of credibility and what is physically possible?

You mention how long it takes to build real military ships vessels. Yet for around the same time period, they can build intergalactic spaceships as that of a destroyer. Hate to break it to you, but it's an entirely fictional show. So if you are going on real life data. Then Earth should have one in the next thousand odd years.

Daedalus has only been completed a few months, Odyssey will be appearing very soon as will the Orion shortly after that. In the SG world, The SGC seem to have the ability to manufacture ships pretty quickly these days. So you cannot compare real life production times with a fictional show, Unless you know first hand that there are little grey men really lending a hand to the USAF.

Once they completed Prometheus, they didn't have to start from scratch again & bin everything that it's predecessor was.

They simply went back & had another look at what they thought they could improve upon. They started at the beginning with the layout of the ship. Managed to find more effective ways of reshaping the overall design. That combined with implementing all the new Asgard tech into it, resulted in a far better ship than the old one.

I admit, this is merely extrapolation and inference mixed with a little logic , but can you do better with the information at hand while remaining within the limits of credibility and what is physically possible?

Little grey Aliens, Beaming up skyscrapers, Fiery Gods, alactic ruling snakes. Everyone speaking English, Yet the Ancients were supposed to speak a form of Latin. If that falls within the limits of credibility, then No I'm afraid that I can't.

However going by what's known.

Prometheus has a BC-303 logo etched into it, whereas Daedalus doesn't have that at all. I'm not saying (nor have I ever) that Daedalus isn't a BC-303 or a BC-304 or anything like that. I simply stating that Daedalus has not ever once been referred to or stated that it's a 303. That goes for directly or indirectly.

The one time that they talked about it, Landry was told that they wanted to build more Daedalus class ships. Therefore I say that it's a Deadalus class ship, as will the Odyssey & the Orion be also.

[alaskannut]

You mention how long it takes to build real military ships vessels. Yet for around the same time period, they can build intergalactic spaceships as that of a destroyer. Hate to break it to you, but it's an entirely fictional show. So if you are going on real life data. Then Earth should have one in the next thousand odd years.

Daedalus has only been completed a few months, Odyssey will be appearing very soon as will the Orion shortly after that. In the SG world, The SGC seem to have the ability to manufacture ships pretty quickly these days. So you cannot compare real life production times with a fictional show, Unless you know first hand that there are little grey men really lending a hand to the USAF.

Once they completed Prometheus, they didn't have to start from scratch again & bin everything that it's predecessor was.

They simply went back & had another look at what they thought they could improve upon. They started at the beginning with the layout of the ship. Managed to find more effective ways of reshaping the overall design. That combined with implementing all the new Asgard tech into it, resulted in a far better ship than the old one.



Little grey Aliens, Beaming up skyscrapers, Fiery Gods, alactic ruling snakes. Everyone speaking English, Yet the Ancients were supposed to speak a form of Latin. If that falls within the limits of credibility, then No I'm afraid that I can't.

However going by what's known.

Prometheus has a BC-303 logo etched into it, whereas Daedalus doesn't have that at all. I'm not saying (nor have I ever) that Daedalus isn't a BC-303 or a BC-304 or anything like that. I simply stating that Daedalus has not ever once been referred to or stated that it's a 303. That goes for directly or indirectly.

The one time that they talked about it, Landry was told that they wanted to build more Daedalus class ships. Therefore I say that it's a Deadalus class ship, as will the Odyssey & the Orion be also.

A. There's no need to be nasty, I was only saying that if you were going to offer an alternative--if you were interested in continuing to contribute to this discussion, then would you make a sound logical argument to support your view point, and to an extent in your conclusion, you did. thanks

B. Why can't I use real life construction times as a bench mark for a reasonable amount of time for the construction of a ship? Presumeably they should be using conventional manufacturing techniques--i.e. the same manufacturing technologies--and that is the only bench mark available for extrapolation. The use of these ships as examples was to indicate the magnitude of the task that is ship construction, nothing more.

C. I never said the Daedalus wasn't a Daedalus class vessel...in fact I'm fairly sure I said it was, and I also said that the Odyssey and Orion were Daedalus class...I ended up cutting that part in an edit after posting it because it was clumsy and beside the point.

D. As for the SGC's ability to introduce multiple ships in such a short time period....several seasons of work simutaneously + multiple construction hangars= series of ships commisioning in a short period of time.

E. If Vedrine wasn't referring to the Daedalus class then what was he referring to? At that point Prometheus had been in service for months and was stranded offworld so A.) It is only logical that the follow on ship(s) (i.e. Daedalus and company) would be well under construction at that point and B.) Construction would be done at the highest possible rate--there would be no recasting the design just for the hell of it.

F. ahhhh thankyou for the sincerest flattery

G. google these terms; Littoral Combat Ship, DD(X), Family of Ships, and you will see where I'm coming from on the whole designator/prototype/production thing, if you find the right sites.

[Three PhDs]

So what, the Prometheus was the X-303? Or what? Cause... if it's now serving as is, and called the BC-303 then that means it's no longer a experimental cruiser. If Daedalus is also serving and different, more advanced it should be the BC-304.

[Jarnin]

So what, the Prometheus was the X-303? Or what? Cause... if it's now serving as is, and called the BC-303 then that means it's no longer a experimental cruiser. If Daedalus is also serving and different, more advanced it should be the BC-304.

Apparently the program designation is throwing you off. It's not a model number, it's a project or program designation.

The X-303 was a project. Projects are created with one objective; in the X-303 Project (codenamed Prometheus), their objective was to create a starship capable of defending Earth from the Goa'uld using the technology obtained from the StarGate Program. The project was a success, and was later turned into a continuing program with the objective of manufacturing BC-303 battlecruisers (Daedalus class ships).

Originally, there were many projects - the X-301 project (canceled), the X-302 project (rolled into the F-302 Program), and the X-303 project - all of which were overseen by General Vidrine.
After the events at the end of season 7, President Hayes created the Department of Homeworld Security, which oversees the StarGate Program, the Area 51 R&D facility, the F-302 program, and the BC-303 (Daedalus) program.

So what would a X-304 be? Well, it'd start as a project that was overseen by the Department of Homeworld Security. It'd probably be based in Area 51, or another R&D facility operated by the DHS.
Most importantly, the X-304 program would have different objectives than the other programs; it wouldn't be a battlecruiser that did the same things as a BC-303, and it wouldn't copy the mission objectives of an F-302. An X-304 would fill a role that the F-302 or BC-303 couldn't do, or couldn't do as well.

An X-304 could be a support ship for the F-302 and BC-303, like an assault frigate. It could be a larger ship that acted like a carrier, which the BC-303 and F-302 would support. It could be an assault shuttle - like a raptor from BSG - which would support the F-302 and BC-303. Or it could be something else entirely, like a hovercraft used by ground forces, or a weapon that is being developed for the Daedalus.
The only time a new project would replace an existing one would be if they're going to scrap an old design for a new one; but that doesn't happen very often. Navy ships stay in service for 25 or more years, and fighters stay in service for 10-15. They won't be replacing those programs any time soon.

[tony]

ya as ive said earlyer Regardless of how Diffrent the daedalus is it still can be apart of the BC-303 program

ive seen coast guard vessels that look nothing alike yet belong 2 the same class of vessel.

[Three PhDs]

Navy ships stay in service for 25 or more years, and fighters stay in service for 10-15. They won't be replacing those programs any time soon.

Just on that note, although slightly off topic, I was discussing military tech etc with someone the other day and we both suddenly realised that aircraft like the F-117 were the product of research done in the late seventies and in production by the early eighties. The F-117 has been an operational aircraft for nearly 25 years now. Makes ya wonder what's the "new thing" in testing right now.

[alaskannut]

Just on that note, although slightly off topic, I was discussing military tech etc with someone the other day and we both suddenly realised that aircraft like the F-117 were the product of research done in the late seventies and in production by the early eighties. The F-117 has been an operational aircraft for nearly 25 years now. Makes ya wonder what's the "new thing" in testing right now.

Man, even the F/A-22 and EF-2000 are mostly 80s and early-mid '90s tech...and they haven't even entered service yet!

As for what they're testing now....I'm thinking combined cycle engines, Switch blade, plasma and active stealth, and electrochromatic skins, among other goodies...though I might be pushing it with the plasma stealth part .

[Eireann]

I didnt say you though it was a fighter I said you thing its an actual ship, its not it protype.
The "F" designation means fighter. I don not think it is a fighter.

And the thing is becasue it was a protype, it was made to test and see what is was like. And the Daedalus, was what was designed after taking into account field testing of the Prometheus. And because it was based on the Prometheus it was given the same number 303.
All you'd needed to have done was read the quote...


Im just saying that the Daedalus is the BC 303 and the Prometheus is the x 303.
Well that's wrong. As that site clearly illustrated the letter at the start of the designation is the mission type, the class is defined by the design number. The production variant of a craft of X designation is given its proper designation but it is still the same design. if it weren't it would need a new number; like Daedalus and Prometheus.

IMO cannon means anything officially declared by the TPTB or anything appear on television in stargate SG1.
Writers testimonies are about as apocryphal as they get.

actually it is known, the deadalus is a 303. quote for TTTB ''the international commitee feel it would be prudent to invest more resources in the production of more deadalus class 303 battle cruisers vessels and the atlantis expedition' cue vala
That is utter fabrication. Fisher says "Now it's time time for devoting our resources to exploiting those technologies for plantary defense namely by building more Daedalus class ships.".

The actual quote supports me; note it's a Daedalus class and according to American class nomenclature the class is named after the lead ship.

The orion and odesey are not likely to be any different to the deadalus in anthing but names. theere is not military or strategic point to change the type of ship you are using everytime you build a new ship.
Daedalus/Prometheus

QED

The problem is that all your points on based on real life information, not stargate. And they call it sience ficton for a reason. i.e. its based on some things and other are conpletely made up. If it was a normal USAF ship then it probably would be the 304 but its not its in stargate. So the writers could name it anything they want. And as other people have proved it is the BC 303. And if you can actually show information from stargate that proves it is the 304, then post it as so far you have only showed that if it was the USAF they probably would name it 304. But thats not a point as this is stargate not real life.

[Lord §okar]

The BC-303 program covers the development and production of a capital ship for use by the USAF in the role of planetary defense. The Prometheus is the prototype/test/developmental vessel for the program and is its own subclass of vessel within the BC-303 program....
According to whom exactly?

Point #1

the USS Jimmy Carter, although some argue differently, is officially considered to be a Seawolf class sub, despite the fact that its 100' longer with a wasp-waist ocean interface

The USS George H.W.Bush is considered to be a Nimitz class carrier, despite an entirely different superstructure, as well as numerous changes within the hull intended to make it a bridge to the CVNX

USS Oscar Austin and subsequent ships are considered to be Arleigh Burkes, despite the completely revamped aft hull and weapons fit

And if you want to argue that we're talking air force equipment, not navy, compare the YF-22 and F/A-22, the B-1A and B-1B, the F-15A and the F-15K/F-15ACTIVE, the F-16A and F-16XL, the YB-52 and B-52H.

My point inj all of this? Late/Production models can differ dramatically from prototypes/early production models due to changes made in light of issues discovered during testing and new requirements. Class designation is all a matter of semantics and technicalities.
I can't argue with that, but I don't need to. The onus of proof is on your camp to give a reason to even assume that the Daedalus is a production variant of the 303.

It is never described as a 303, it bears only passing cosmetic similarity to the Prometheus (the distinction is far vaster than those exampls you provided) and its weaponry is improved no end.

Considering the fact that it takes 3 yrs to build a 9000 ton guided missile destroyer and ~1.5-2 yrs to build a ~3000ton Littoral Combat Ship for the navy, I would think it's safe to say that Daedalus has been in construction since late season 6 at least, perhaps even earlier. As such, if this is correct then, I believe it was General Vedrine, would have been referring to it when he mentioned BC-303.
Heh, in Moebius it was shown that Daedalus was to look exactly like Prometheus. They can build anything in any timeframe.

They would not have stopped building Prometheus class ships that were already under construction, scrapped them and then restarted from scratch building Daedalus class ships....they(the fictional USAF) could not have afforded that monetarily or otherwise--they needed those ships NOW!
Obviously they did.

I know you are from Italy Sokar and me being 100% Sicilian I know where the stubbornness of your claim comes from
I'm not from Italy, my location is a refernce to a contrived fashion label from a Placebo video clip.

OK Sokar, I'll play your game, for a little while anyway...you ask us to show you where in canon the Daedalus is directly referred to as a 303, well, I ask you to name one instance where it is referred to as being anything else.
TTTB; "Deadalus class ship".

Even if I couldn't the burden of proof would still be on you, I've provided plenty of evidence.

The problem is that all your points on based on real life information, not stargate. And they call it sience ficton for a reason. i.e. its based on some things and other are conpletely made up. If it was a normal USAF ship then it probably would be the 304 but its not its in stargate. So the writers could name it anything they want. And as other people have proved it is the BC 303. And if you can actually show information from stargate that proves it is the 304, then post it as so far you have only showed that if it was the USAF they probably would name it 304. But thats not a point as this is stargate not real life.
Oh you're one of the "it's sci-fi so ******** to <logic/science/reality>" people, eh? There's no reason to assume real Air Force nomenclature would not be adhered to.

No they haven't proved it, we're debating.