jacks "ZPM" gould tech

[Crazedwraith]

I don't believe that is the case, my idea will not violate the conservation of energy.

It may seem like it is pointless but it actually isn't. All around us is energy, weather it be potential or another form, this energy is usable but difficult to harness, the liquid naquadah cell is an easily harnessable power source. You are exchanging energy that is doing absolutly zip, for energy that will be used for something constructive, like powering an eight chevron lock.

Owen Macri

1) That weather should be whether, sorri I'm picky like that.
2) How excalty does all this hard to gather energy get into the device?
3) Why doesn't it just use this heard to gather energy to power the gate?

[_Owen_]

I don't mind you correcting me, that word has always confused me, the second spelling of it never looks right to me, so I allways put the first. I apoligize.

The reason they can't use the "hard to gather energy" is simply because we don't have a way of effectivly channeling it into a device or in great enough amount for it to be useful.

Well first we should start off with what types of energy this is. Proof that it is there is that you are alive. All around use is heat energy, this is just one of the forms. We don't have an effective way of channeling this heat energy in any usefull amounts. However in theory it seems as though a properly designed energy field could draw the energy. Imagine it like this, you have a balloon, pumped with air, along the surface of the balloon are a 2 billion tiny valves that allow air flow one way, 1billion allow air to flow into the balloon, the other billion allow air to flow out. The valves also have devices that suck in air and pump it out. If you pump in to much air and don't pump out enough the balloons size will increase and it will pop, if you pump out to much and suck in not enough the balloon will shrink, however if you pump in the same amount of air that you are pumping out the balloon will always stay the same size.

Imagine the ballon as your dampening field, imagine the air in the balloon as the liquid naquadah, and imagine the air outside as the unusable heat energy, the balloon, or The O'Neill Device, will pump out energy well taking in the same amount, leaving the amount of energy in both dimensions equal.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

and yet you must have an effective way to channel it if you can shove it into another dimension. So why not shove it into the gate instead?

And from your ballon analogy i still don't undertand how this help you to get more 'useful' energy to the gate than simply reacting the naquadah would give you.

[_Owen_]

I agree with you, a device could be built to simply channel heat energy into the stargate, it would be far less complicated, using the naquadah instead is simply an addition to the device, the ancients did everything big.

About your last point I am not sure that I understand, so I will clarify, if you still don't understand please ask.

Inside the dampening field is a self contained region of another dimension, in this dimension, naquadah has a greater energy equivilent than in our dimension, so energy is drawn from there so more energy can be used for a longer time. Except as you said it would be a violation of the conservation of mass and energy, because there would be more energy in the universe than there is supposed to be, this is countered by drawn common energy that is always there but is hard to harness (with our current technology) into the other dimension to equilize the amounts of energy in both dimensions.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

OK, I think I understand what your trying to say. The Ancients and Jack built a hopelessly over complicated system to dial eight chevrons.

Mainly it takes heat energy and shove it into another dimesion and pull naquadah energy out. One question: Why isn't the power vault freezing in '5th Race' ? There should have been ice and stuff.


I'm going to call a concept called Occum's Razor here which states:

no more things should be presumed to exist tha are absoultouly nessecary.

Which basically means the simpler the theory that still adress all the ponits the better the theory.

Your theory nneds things like 'pocket dimensions' and 'raise the energy potential of naquadah'

This is why I'd rather beleive my theory than yours.

[_Owen_]

Yep, that's bassically it, the device was far more complicated than it needed to be.

The thing that I can think of is that the device exctracs energy in small amounts over a large space then heat energy from other rooms, even from outside the base and from the Earth itself will enter the room to make up for the lost energy, allthough it would get colder. It is possible that the device absorbs the energy directly from the earth itself therefore the temperature would not decrease. Or an even more complicated idea, the device derives the energy that is put back into the other dimension from the potential energy itself of the objects in the room, this would be even more complicated, we currently have no knowledge of how to extract potential energy without converting it into a useful form like kinetic or heat.

Sometimes a more complicated device is nesesary, with yours simply increasing the rate of reaction would be impossible because it would have to turn into another element. However the rate of reaction could be diffrent in another dimension, which takes you back to my original theory of a self-contained dimension.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

Like I said: Occum's Razor. Simplest is best.

And since when did: "do things large" translate to "needlessly complicated"?

[_Owen_]

Well sometimes, needlessly complicated is not so needless. There could be reasons that Jack designed the device that way instead of a simpler way.

Owen Macri

[Macharius0]

Okay, these posts aren't making that much sense to me, I never did well at physics. Here's what I think.

O'Neill built a power generator around the energy module from a staff weapon. It had a power output of more than a MK I Naquadah reactor but less than a ZPM. It only worked once and only needed to generate enough power to send ONE person through the Stargate to another galaxy. Alternate Carter was the only one who went to find Thor in "Point of View", and O'Neill went to Othala on his own.

The plans for that device could have been a failsafe built into the ancient hall of knowledge. That way if someone like O'Neill made the mistake of downloading it into their brains, they could built a generator like that from common components. Since it only was designed to work once before burning out, it would prevent other people from using the design to reverse engineer the technology and rapidly advance their society (a situation the Tollan wanted to avoid).

Chances are the device shouldn't have worked again, but having two Carters... (drools...eyes glaze over...snaps out of it.) ...Ahem, excuse me, working on it was more than enough brain power to find a way around that little safeguard.

[6thMonolith]

That makes sense to me. the reson that it wouldn't work twice had something to do with how the dampening field had to be remodulated. Something like that. It was only ment to be used once, and after it was shut off, it basicly broke. But then was fixed. And probably broke again.

[_Owen_]

The only reason that it didn't work again, immediatly after the first use is because everytime the device is activated, power is drawn from it and it is shut off, the dampening fields modulation is shifted not allowing for the device to be used without remodulation of the dampening field.

The way the device worked it had the power to create and sustain an incredible number of intergalactic wormholes, the liquid naquadah should last for a very long time, but when it does eventually run out you can simply replace the cartridges.

There was no failsafe built into the repository, the knowledge is downloaded only if the users' brain chemistry is compatible with the device. The knowledge was downloaded, then O'Neill, knowing that he would die with the knowledge in his brain, built The O'Neill Device to go to the Asgard, because he knew that they had the technology to remove the vast amounts of data.

Owen Macri

[Heaven]

sam says the device uses the energy module of the staff weapon and the dampening field around the liquid naquadah is used to control the energy output to the capacitors so that the device doesnt blow up.
in order to make the device work again they had to recalibrate this field which as said controls the energy output.
later on when they were finished they said all they needed was the ratio of the decay rate of naquadah to the energy output.
this much we know as fact. how the device actually works we can only speculate.
im not sure but when sam pulls the liquid naquadah container from the device it seems empty (probably why the device worked only once) so its possible they had to replace it with regular naquadah and thats why they needed to recalibrate the dampening field.
we know that opening a gate to another galaxy requires huge amount of energy which such small amount of liquid naquadah is improbable to generate.
now heres my theory
provided what we know about matter and energy matter is essentialy energy (e=mc^2) confined into a small space. and so regardless of what dimension you're in, to say that you can extract more energy from naquadah is a violation of conservation of energy so we can pretty much rule it out.

there are several ways to extract energy from matter like chemical/nuclear reactions, either way some of the exerted energy is channeled for power and the rest is converted into other forms of energy like gas radiation etc.
otherwise we would be able to power the entire world with potatoes and tomatoe reactors.
the only interaction of matter we know of that completly converts the matter into energy is matter-antimatter interaction.
i think what Owen was trying to say is that in some other dimension it is possible to convert the naquadah into usable energy more efficiently which does not violate conservation of energy. but i dont think thats the case since this is still a pretty small amount of liquid naquadah.

my guess is that the device uses the liquid naquadah to generate a subspace link and draws the huge amount of energy from subspace much like the zpm only in this case we have to actually generate a link into subspace in order to access subspace energy whereas a zpm already has a subspace region contained inside.

[Macharius0]

The only reason that it didn't work again, immediatly after the first use is because everytime the device is activated, power is drawn from it and it is shut off, the dampening fields modulation is shifted not allowing for the device to be used without remodulation of the dampening field.

The way the device worked it had the power to create and sustain an incredible number of intergalactic wormholes, the liquid naquadah should last for a very long time, but when it does eventually run out you can simply replace the cartridges.

There was no failsafe built into the repository, the knowledge is downloaded only if the users' brain chemistry is compatible with the device. The knowledge was downloaded, then O'Neill, knowing that he would die with the knowledge in his brain, built The O'Neill Device to go to the Asgard, because he knew that they had the technology to remove the vast amounts of data.

Owen Macri

If that's the case then how come we haven't been using the device to check up on Atlantis, send them supplies, contact the Asgard, etc? If all you have to do is fix the thing and maybe replace the energy module, shouldn't we be using it?

[_Owen_]

sam says the device uses the energy module of the staff weapon and the dampening field around the liquid naquadah is used to control the energy output to the capacitors so that the device doesnt blow up.
in order to make the device work again they had to recalibrate this field which as said controls the energy output.
later on when they were finished they said all they needed was the ratio of the decay rate of naquadah to the energy output.
this much we know as fact. how the device actually works we can only speculate.
im not sure but when sam pulls the liquid naquadah container from the device it seems empty (probably why the device worked only once) so its possible they had to replace it with regular naquadah and thats why they needed to recalibrate the dampening field.
we know that opening a gate to another galaxy requires huge amount of energy which such small amount of liquid naquadah is improbable to generate.
now heres my theory
provided what we know about matter and energy matter is essentialy energy (e=mc^2) confined into a small space. and so regardless of what dimension you're in, to say that you can extract more energy from naquadah is a violation of conservation of energy so we can pretty much rule it out.

there are several ways to extract energy from matter like chemical/nuclear reactions, either way some of the exerted energy is channeled for power and the rest is converted into other forms of energy like gas radiation etc.
otherwise we would be able to power the entire world with potatoes and tomatoe reactors.
the only interaction of matter we know of that completly converts the matter into energy is matter-antimatter interaction.
i think what Owen was trying to say is that in some other dimension it is possible to convert the naquadah into usable energy more efficiently which does not violate conservation of energy. but i dont think thats the case since this is still a pretty small amount of liquid naquadah.

my guess is that the device uses the liquid naquadah to generate a subspace link and draws the huge amount of energy from subspace much like the zpm only in this case we have to actually generate a link into subspace in order to access subspace energy whereas a zpm already has a subspace region contained inside.

I have just discussed this with Crazedwraith, it is not a violation of the Consevation of Energy. Please read the last couple of pages.

Owen Macri

[_Owen_]

You are exactly right, we should be using the device right now, except when they came back from the alternate reality they apparently left it there for unknown reasons and did not ever elaborate on this. It was pretty stupid seeing as the device would have worked, possibly hundreds of millions of times more, barring any accidents, such as someone dropping it.

Owen Macri