jacks "ZPM" gould tech

[_Owen_]

My theory, bends the laws, but doesn't break them completly.

My proof is that if a liquid naquadah cell had enough energy why haven't they, or the goa'uld used it to make an eight chevron lock, they had all this trouble throughout the series because they couldn't dial eight chevrons, yet there was always a staff weapons sitting in the armory with two liwuid naquadah cells in it, ready for use.

Don't tell me that they didn't have the technology, because they do, they need a liquid naquadah reactor, only slightly diffrent from a solid naquadah reactor, and a device that could increase or decrease the flow of energy, a dampening field is deffinetly not needed for this.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

My theory, bends the laws, but doesn't break them completly.

You have yet to explain. how flicking a magic switch and suddenly being able to draw ten times more energy is not breaking conservation of energy.

My proof is that if a liquid naquadah cell had enough energy why haven't they, or the goa'uld used it to make an eight chevron lock, they had all this trouble throughout the series because they couldn't dial eight chevrons, yet there was always a staff weapons sitting in the armory with two liwuid naquadah cells in it, ready for use.

Simple, to the goa'uld
1) They might not know it is even possible. Standard DHDs aren't eight lock enabled.
2) If they did know about the 8 lock they wouldn't need to use a naq generator of any form. The DHDs can handle and 8 lock. (ref: Home)

to the SGC,
they may have lost the O'ND without that they can't draw enough energy quickly enough.

[_Owen_]

A dhd is eight chevron lock enabled, except you need another power source to give the gate its' extra juice.

The dhds don't have sufficient power for an eight chevron lock, if they did the SGC would have simply gone to another planet and dialed Atlantis, or vice versa, and in the episode "The Fifth Race" O'Neill wouldn't have had to build the device in the first place, he could have gated to a planet with a dhd and used it to gate to the Asgard.

I believe the episode you are refering to is "The Fifth Race," where the Asgard dial Earth so that Jack can go home, in the episode of Atlantis "Home" the reason they could make an eight chevron lock was because the noncorporeal beings within the planets atmosphere directly powered the gate.

Even without The O'Neill Device you could extract energy from liquid naquadah at that speed, they simply need a reactor, they can increase the rate of conversion from energy to matter and more energy would be extcerted in a shorter period of time.

First of all, it was a magic button.

Within the dampening field, conditions are created unlike any in our level of the universe, the dampening field will create conditions within the field similar to those of another dimension, in another dimension the amount of energy in a vial of liquid naquadah could be greater than the amount of energy in a vial of liquid naquadah in our universe, so inside this device, inside the dampening field, within those conditions, the laws of conservation of mass and energy are not true, neither is E=MC^2, matter would be equal to a greater amount of energy than its' mass multiplied by the squared velocity of light.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

Take another look at SG:As Home.

Rodney needs to get a module from the Atlantis control base before the DHD will lock 8 chevrons.

The DHD power point is just conceed as I remembered it was the funky lifeforms that gave the energy for the lock.

Even without The O'Neill Device you could extract energy from liquid naquadah at that speed, they simply need a reactor, they can increase the rate of conversion from energy to matter and more energy would be extcerted in a shorter period of time.

As I keep asking you : Prove it!

Going by what you said about MKII reactors it may not be possibly for use to withdraw that much energy in that short at time with out the naq. exploding. Hence the dampening field which prevents this.

[_Owen_]

Take another look at SG:As Home.

Rodney needs to get a module from the Atlantis control base before the DHD will lock 8 chevrons.

The DHD power point is just conceed as I remembered it was the funky lifeforms that gave the energy for the lock.

That is what I said

I believe the episode you are refering to is "The Fifth Race," where the Asgard dial Earth so that Jack can go home, in the episode of Atlantis "Home" the reason they could make an eight chevron lock was because the noncorporeal beings within the planets atmosphere directly powered the gate.

The DHD itself didn't and doesn't have enough energy to power an eight chevron lock.

As I keep asking you : Prove it!

Going by what you said about MKII reactors it may not be possibly for use to withdraw that much energy in that short at time with out the naq. exploding. Hence the dampening field which prevents this.

What kind of proof do you want, there is no proof, that I can offer because we don't have the technology nor the understanding of the damping field.

If you are asking me to prove why about the liquid naquadah energy extarction thing, what is there to prove it should be kind of obvious, if you plug a stero into the wall, it could draw less power from your power grid than is there (staff weapon), if you plug in something much larger like a stargate, and try to dial eight chevrons, it is definetly not going to work because there is not enough power in the grid, it will draw more and more power untill it is drawing all the power and causes a blackout, it still won't be enough to power the gate. My point is that there is not enough energy in the liquid naquadah cells to power eight chevrons or they would have done that by now, they aren't stupid, if they managed to decipher the gate network I think that they could manage to extract some extra power from a liquid naquadah cell, there is nothing special that is required to do this. The naquadah simply needs to be reacted faster and faster, this basically a mark II, the problem is, that you can only react so fast, then you have an overload, where the naquadah will cause a huge chain reaction in the rest of the naquadah and explode because there is to much naquadah reacting and trying to react at the same time.

Not only don't you need a dampening field to control the amount of released energy, but I believe that it would be impossible to react the naquadah at a rate high enough to power an eight chevron lock and not cause an overload. If it was possible they would have done it, they could have taken down some goa'uld stolen a million staff weapons and used the million staff weapons combined with the normal power the gate gets combined with all of there regular reactors and I still don't think it would be enough, because you aren't comprehending the necesary power required for an eight chevron lock. If it was possible to make an eight chevron lock with technology that they had lying around they would have done it. You are going in circles and forcing me to re explain my every point.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

That is what I said


The DHD itself didn't and doesn't have enough energy to power an eight chevron lock.

Yes and I conceed the point. You however also claimed a standard DHD could dial 8 chevrons. This in contradicted by 'Home' where McKay removes a module from atlantis abd hooks it to DHD.

What kind of proof do you want, there is no proof, that I can offer because we don't have the technology nor the understanding of the damping field.

Actually I was asking you to prove that a liquid naq. cell couldn't power an 8 lock by:

a) quantifing the energy required for an 8 chevron Lock.
b) Quanitfy the energy contained in a typical liquid Naq. cell.

and hence show a>b.

My point is that there is not enough energy in the liquid naquadah cells to power eight chevrons or they would have done that by now, they aren't stupid, if they managed to decipher the gate network I think that they could manage to extract some extra power from a liquid naquadah cell, there is nothing special that is required to do this. The naquadah simply needs to be reacted faster and faster, this basically a mark II, the problem is, that you can only react so fast, then you have an overload, where the naquadah will cause a huge chain reaction in the rest of the naquadah and explode because there is to much naquadah reacting and trying to react at the same time.

Yes, and hence dampening field allows it react and not explode.

Not only don't you need a dampening field to control the amount of released energy,

You seem so quick to tell me know bog all about this field. WHy are you so quick to tell me something it cannot do?

but I believe that it would be impossible to react the naquadah at a rate high enough to power an eight chevron lock and not cause an overload. If it was possible they would have done it, they could have taken down some goa'uld stolen a million staff weapons and used the million staff weapons combined with the normal power the gate gets combined with all of there regular reactors and I still don't think it would be enough, because you aren't comprehending the necesary power required for an eight chevron lock. If it was possible to make an eight chevron lock with technology that they had lying around they would have done it. You are going in circles and forcing me to re explain my every point.

Thats becuase you points are flawed and have been flawed ever since you decided a 'dampening field' create energy out of nowhere.

Bottom line: My theory doesn't violate Conservation of energy. Yours does. Generally I'd rather accept a theory that doesn't include a major reoganisation in the way the universe operates Don't you?

[YodaMate]

Yes and I conceed the point. You however also claimed a standard DHD could dial 8 chevrons. This in contradicted by 'Home' where McKay removes a module from atlantis abd hooks it to DHD.

The Pegasus Stargates are different from the Milky Way's, so drawing conclusions for one based on the other can be problematic. For example, the Atlantis Gate was locked out from the entire (universe-wide) Gate network and programmed only to respond to a wormhole from Earth.

When the Pegasus network was set up, the Milky Way (and presumably other Ancient-colonised galaxies) was the scene of a plague, so it's quite possible that it was quarantined from the Pegasus network and its DHDs can't dial there. It's also possible that a similar 'quarantine' may have been set up when the Wraith started to win the war, so that no Pegaus Gates can dial extra-galactic without the special control crystal Atlantis possesses.

With regards to the debate, unless you can explain exactly how somone can be converted into energy, transported a certain distance then reconverted back into themselves, making grand statements about Ancient technology is unwise. In-universe, the episode Enigma revealed that Earth doesn't know much about the basics of highly advanced science, so Ancient technology can and likely does operate on rules that are beyond our primitive understanding.

Until such rules are explained, one theory or argument is not vastly superior to another if based solely or mainly on Earth notions of science.

[_Owen_]

I'm sorry, I was confused.

I will try, somehow to work out these calculations. Untill then I have proof from the show, if a liquid naquadah cartridge contatined that much energy they would have used one to dial atlantis in season eight, yet they didn't.

Now how do you propose that the dampening field would allow the naquadah a higher reaction rate?
If the dampening field allowed a higher reaction rate the conversation in "Point of View" would have been diffrent.

CARTER
My best guess is that the device creates a modulated dampening field around the liquefied naquada cell.

SAMANTHA
Which allows the naquadah a higher rate of reaction, in order to provide large amounts of energy where only smaller ones would be available. So maybe the modulation is thrown out of whack each time it's activated.

CARTER
That's exactly what I thought. But how to you even begin to recalibrate a field that you can't generate in the first place…?

However you wouldn't need the dampening field in that case to control the energy flow to the capacitors, because the energy could flow through any common wire.

I didn't say that it can't controll the energy flow to the capacitors, I said that you don't need it to control the energy flow to the capacitors. The speed at which the energy travels from source to destination does not matter, the same amount of energy will get there.

With your idea, the dampening field extracts more energy than is normally there, now who is making energy from nothing? There is only a limited amount of energy that can come from a naquadah reaction, in a predetermined period of time. The rate of decay simply prevents the naquadah from being converted into energy faster, it would cause an overload.

I would like to hear your proposition for exactly how the dampening field will raise the rate of conversion. There is also still my original question, if that naquadah is powerful enough to make at least two eight chevron locks possibly more, why have they not simply used the liquid naquadah to dial atlantis?

If there is enough energy in a liquid naquadah cell to make an eight chevron lock, and not have any visible diffrence in the level of liquid naquadah in the cells, it is more than probable that the cell conatains enough energy to be reacted at its normal rate.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

.I will try, somehow to work out these calculations. Untill then I have proof from the show, if a liquid naquadah cartridge contatined that much energy they would have used one to dial atlantis in season eight, yet they didn't.

The reason they didn't is quite simply. Only the O'ND allowed them to withdraw the nergy safely and th O'DN could either be:

a)Left in the AU
b) Permantly Broken.
c) it fell in that whooping great plot hole behind the furlings and next to the Ascended death cop out o matic.

Now how do you propose that the dampening field would allow the naquadah a higher reaction rate?

I don't know but I'll just use your excuse: ancient tech is so far beoyond we can't even comprehend it so how can I explain myself.

How do you propose a dampening field can violate CoE?

If the dampening field allowed a higher reaction rate the conversation in "Point of View" would have been diffrent.

And if your theory was correct it would have been different to:

My best guess is that the device creates a modulated dampening field around the liquefied naquada cell.

SAMANTHA
Which increases the energy potential in the naquadah allowing much higher amounts of energy to be withdrawn from the cell. Holy hannah! This means our theories on conservation of energy have been totally disproved! and incidently the field must be thrown all out of whack each time the device is activated.

CARTER
That's exactly what I thought. But how to you even begin to recalibrate a field that you can't generate in the first place…?

I would like to hear your proposition for exactly how the dampening field will raise the rate of conversion. There is also still my original question, if that naquadah is powerful enough to make at least two eight chevron locks possibly more, why have they not simply used the liquid naquadah to dial atlantis?

Again similar to your excuse I will just babble on for a while about how much more advacned the ancients were, this means i couldn't possibly tell you how it works.

If there is enough energy in a liquid naquadah cell to make an eight chevron lock, and not have any visible diffrence in the level of liquid naquadah in the cells, it is more than probable that the cell conatains enough energy to be reacted at its normal rate.

Owen Macri

Aside from that pesky CoE violation, yes.

[_Owen_]

I didn't use that excuse, I know what the dampening field would do, it would create a sort of contained area in which the conditions are equal to those in another dimension in which naquadah has a higher energy equivilent. Therefore not breaking any laws of conservation of mass and energy. You just say that it will raise the rate of reaction, you don't give an example of how the dampening field could do this, I do, and it doesn't break any laws of physics"

Your theory is that the dampening field raises the rate of reaction therefore allowing more energy to be passed into whichever device you are powering, allowing for a large amount of energy to be utilised in a shorter time, sacrificing the naquadah as well without causing an overload. This is the third time that you have changed your theory, first it was, "how could my idea work," then is was "it allows more energy to pass through to power the stargate, now it is "the dampening field raises the rate of reaction, not causing an overload.

If it is the third option it is impossible, each element has a specific rate of decay, it cannot be changed without changing the element, for The O'Neill Device to do what you are suggesting it would have to change the element into another because the naquadahs' rate of decay can not be changed, who is breaking the laws of physics now.

As I have previously said, the dampening field doesn't violate the laws in question, and I have am not using the excuse that there technology is so advanced, I have told you how it is possible that the energy equivilent of the naquadah can be raised, but you can not tell me how you would change the rate of decay.

Once again, I have not "babbled" on about how the ancients were more advanced.

Also as I have previously said my theory does not violate the laws of conservation of mass and energy.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

I didn't use that excuse, I know what the dampening field would do, it would create a sort of contained area in which the conditions are equal to those in another dimension in which naquadah has a higher energy equivilent.

SO basically you might as well say a magic fairy waves its wand and whumpf theres all the energy you need.

Therefore not breaking any laws of conservation of mass and energy. You just say that it will raise the rate of reaction, you don't give an example of how the dampening field could do this, I do, and it doesn't break any laws of physics"

No, you close your eyes say lalalalala, it can warp reality to create energy lalalalalala.

By your latest explanation, this energy comes from another dimension, yes? So when its done there will be more energy/matter in this universe then there was at the start. Which is a massive violation of CoE.

Your theory is that the dampening field raises the rate of reaction therefore allowing more energy to be passed into whichever device you are powering, allowing for a large amount of energy to be utilised in a shorter time, sacrificing the naquadah as well without causing an overload. This is the third time that you have changed your theory, first it was, "how could my idea work," then is was "it allows more energy to pass through to power the stargate, now it is "the dampening field raises the rate of reaction, not causing an overload.

No, my theory has remained constant: The O'ND simply allows greaty amonuts of power to be drawn from the naquadah. Though I will admit I may have altered some minor technical recountings of this when you brought the dampening field quote in to it.

And I haven't changed my story. I have both explained why your idea is impossible and put forth my own.

[_Owen_]

I have yet to hear your suggestion for how the dampening field raises the conversion rate, all you have said is that the ancients were so far advanced. I have an explination for mine, this brings me to my next point. You obviously don't understand my point, I base this assumption on all the "las," the dampening field creates a self conatained region of another dimesion in which the Naquadah has a higher energy conversion, allowing far more energy to be output while far less of the power source is being used.

I am not saying at all that a magic fairy waves its' wand.

I see your point that there would be more energy/matter in the universe, so I went back and checked my post and noticed that I missed something. The device needs to draw power from somewhere to power the dampening field, as well as passing energy from one dimension to another to power something the dampening field, it also draws energy from our universe and reverses the proces transfering energy from our dimension into the other one, just to even things out. I apoligize, I forgot to add that in my post, I thought that I did.

SO basically ur saying a magic firy waves its wand and whumpf theres all the energy you need.

No, you close your eyes say lalalalala, it can warp reality to create energy lalalalalala.

I would apreciate it if you didn't post with meaningless sentences, like the one that I quoted, it is not usefull to the discussion, simply a way of being sarcastic that is the opposite of productive to the discussion. I did not say any of that it is simply the way you are interpreting my posts.

Owen Macri

[Crazedwraith]

I have yet to hear your suggestion for how the dampening field raises the conversion rate, all you have said is that the ancients were so far advanced. I have an explination for mine, this brings me to my next point. You obviously don't understand my point, I base this assumption on all the "las," the dampening field creates a self conatained region of another dimesion in which the Naquadah has a higher energy conversion, allowing far more energy to be output while far less of the power source is being used.

I seem to understand your point better than you do. You want to violate CoE. Good luck on that.

I see your point that there would be more energy/matter in the universe, so I went back and checked my post and noticed that I missed something. The device needs to draw power from somewhere to power the dampening field, as well as passing energy from one dimension to another to power something the dampening field, it also draws energy from our universe and reverses the proces transfering energy from our dimension into the other one, just to even things out. I apoligize, I forgot to add that in my post, I thought that I did.

Wait now your saying your pulling X amount of energy from another universe but have to put X back in. Thus defeating the entire point of the device. If you have the energy to shove back to the other universe to even things out. You'd just it to power the gate

I would apreciate it if you didn't post with meaningless sentences, like the one that I quoted, it is not usefull to the discussion, simply a way of being sarcastic that is the opposite of productive to the discussion. I did not say any of that it is simply the way you are interpreting my posts.

Owen Macri

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll try to leave the levity behind.

[_Owen_]

I don't believe that is the case, my idea will not violate the conservation of energy.

It may seem like it is pointless but it actually isn't. All around us is energy, weather it be potential or another form, this energy is usable but difficult to harness, the liquid naquadah cell is an easily harnessable power source. You are exchanging energy that is doing absolutly zip, for energy that will be used for something constructive, like powering an eight chevron lock.

I don't mind a little joke, or even a big one, but when we are trying to have a serious conversation and you say

SO basically you might as well say a magic fairy waves its wand and whumpf theres all the energy you need.

it seems more sarcastic than productive, or meaningful.

Owen Macri

[YodaMate]

For all we know, the Ancients may use the Force to help power their technology... any argument based solely on Earth science knowledge is not ironclad when dealing with a fictional universe in which wormholes through other dimensions can be established

Once an Asgard tells Carter that conservation of energy law is absolute, then you can say so fairly safely with regards to Ancient technology. It would be better if you had an Ascended Ancient tell you that.

And no one commented on the Pegasus 'quarantine' idea. How sad for old Peggy, it's always been ignored by these upper-class galaxy snobs