So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

You know, you're partially right... it is my opinion, and Asgard_live's opinion, and the opinion of most of the other people in this thread. Hell, some of the people even arguing it was realistic still think it was a stupid and crappy thing. You're pretty much in the minority, if not outright alone here.

You may want to consider that if the majority are saying something, it might actually have some basis in fact. SGU could use as many fans as it can get, so it might behoove some to honestly consider that the criticism of the majority might actually be valid. Perhaps this is one of the many myriad reasons why the fanbase shrunk and people stopped watching.

I agree with FOB.

Lets look at it from O'Neills point of view, the Langarens were in comunication with the LA probably working with them and we can get to Destiny with Zero risk to the planet. I would understand if we came off in a good light but we didn't, the entire point of the ep was make us look morally questionable. I would have no problem believeing SG-1 or Shep do the same thing.

[LoneStar1836]

The LA gaining access to the Langaran gate in NO WAY threatened earth. It threatened 80 people and a rust bucket ship (who are seemingly in constant danger by things other than the LA anyway).

There were alternative means to neutralize that threat, and the ultimate goal of the 'immoral' mission wasn't one of them. In fact, it put earth in greater danger by risking turning allies into enemies (allies with a planet rich in highly explosive bomb making materials).

The mission goals were dumb for fantasy, dumb for real life and doesn't fit with 15 years of back story.

This.

What does dialing the 9th chevron to Destiny with the very real potential risk of blowing up a planet with millions of people on it have to do with Earth's security??? I have yet to see anyone answer that?

That is why they went to Langara...to dial the gate. Yeah, Woolsey did a little rifling through papers to see if the Langarans were in cahoots with the LA. But this operation was undertaken to see if they could dial the gate to Destiny. What they hoped to gain after that I don't know seeing as how we betrayed these allies. I doubt they would have willingly let Earth start using the gate after that...which would have meant that Earth would have to militarily occupy the area around the Langaran gate.

Like I said earlier, if the SGC had just gone there to militarily occupy the planet because of its naquadria resources, I could totally see that happening in this war against the Al Qaeda of the galaxy, but they didn't. They went with the intention of dialing the 9th chevron to get to Destiny. Two other planets had gone BOOM when this was done. This one had millions of people living on it. Not to mention we were risking blowing up a major source of naquadria which Earth highly covets. It'd be like the US dropping a couple of nukes (that may or may not have functioning detonators in them) over Canada (#1 exporter of oil to the US) just because of the risk of terrorist coming to the US through Canada. Terrible analogy I know, but this episode as it was written makes about as much sense.

No plan is 100% guaranteed. That Jack O'Neill willingly signed off on this is bs, imo.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Talking of the SGA ep Millers Crossing didn't Shep convice a man to kill himself? Not exactly morally white is it?

[Flyboy]

Todd repeatedly screwed us over. Yawned when McKay asked for help to save his sister.

Stalemated. I have difficulty with Genocide being the preferable to what amounts to rehabilitation/coexistence.

Again! Confusion between necessity and morality! In warfare and international relations often the wrong thing has been done for the right reasons. I am not disagreeing that it was preferable to experiment on the Wraith. It was necessary, a necessary evil, if you will. But that does not make it Just.

Are we talking about the same episode? O'neill closed the Iris on the leader of a society that engaged in a preemptive ethnic cleaning of their planet. His own population of people, most of whom were in stasis were blondish blue eyed white guys. And he said that Teal'c was "not like them" or some such. How much more evidence that that guy and his people were written to be an allusion to Nazi's do you need? It is black and white.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you were describing original O'Neill as Nazi-ish. Apologies.

Again, the Goa'uld routinely tried to take out the entire planet. Not the front line, not a symbolic target, the whole thing. If that didn't inspire the fear and immorality, then neither should a single cargo ship.

Tried and failed. SG1 was able to succesfully repell all Goa'uld conventional attacks on the planet, think of it like World War Two. Where as the LA story is much more like the GWOT. One singular strike against a sensitive target has the ability to cause more fear and more reaction from a government than an entire war. Impending doom is one thing, but when the enemy has actually demonstrated a capability to inflict harm at the centre of your power, it does change things - please just look at the development of US domestic and foreign policy following 9/11 for an example.

[Flyboy]

This.

What does dialing the 9th chevron to Destiny with the very real potential risk of blowing up a planet with millions of people on it have to do with Earth's security??? I have yet to see anyone answer that?

That is why they went to Langara...to dial the gate. Yeah, Woolsey did a little rifling through papers to see if the Langarans were in cahoots with the LA. But this operation was undertaken to see if they could dial the gate to Destiny. What they hoped to gain after that I don't know seeing as how we betrayed these allies. I doubt they would have willingly let Earth start using the gate after that...which would have meant that Earth would have to militarily occupy the area around the Langaran gate.

Like I said earlier, if the SGC had just gone there to militarily occupy the planet because of its naquadria resources, I could totally see that happening in this war against the Al Qaeda of the galaxy, but they didn't. They went with the intention of dialing the 9th chevron to get to Destiny. Two other planets had gone BOOM when this was done. This one had millions of people living on it. Not to mention we were risking blowing up a major source of naquadria which Earth highly covets. It'd be like the US dropping a couple of nukes (that may or may not have functioning detonators in them) over Canada (#1 exporter of oil to the US) just because of the risk of terrorist coming to the US through Canada. Terrible analogy I know, but this episode as it was written makes about as much sense.

No plan is 100% guaranteed. That Jack O'Neill willingly signed off on this is bs, imo.

This is the best argument against so far, if I might say.

And ultimately, I agree with you. I think what they did was totally realistic, I think the reasons behind it, however, and their objectives were fuzzy.

A more realistic motive would simply have been Woolsey's rifling through papers.

[LoneStar1836]

This is the best argument against so far, if I might say.

And ultimately, I agree with you. I think what they did was totally realistic, I think the reasons behind it, however, and their objectives were fuzzy.

A more realistic motive would simply have been Woolsey's rifling through papers.

Thanks.

I agree. I could very much believe that Earth would use the stones like they did to spy on the Langaran government. Totally realistic and keeping with the tradition of Stargate. Not to mention that it made sense. We have five stones. (or is it 4 now?) They could have then somehow found a way to forcibly switch out three more top level government officials so they could have access to other info in the time that they were there. (But that makes for a boring episode I suppose.) But as it was, they had one man (Woolsey) looking for evidence of cooperation with the LA, while Young, Telford, McKay, and I guess Scott where off messing with the stargate. Finding evidence of LA involvement was secondary at best, and they totally blew their chance to infiltrate higher up officials.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kai,

And we've already established that the people on Destiny have a nearly fool-proof method for dealing with incursions.

Not if the LA has the forsight to put their people in spacesuits. In fact if they are in spacesuits with the magic door openers the tactical situation is much much worse for Destiny if they've vacumed the gateroom. The LA troops can open the doors and expand the vacumn compartment by compartment forcing the Earth troops to represurize and possibly losing Earth personel in the process.

[garhkal]

I disagree. If comparisons are to be made, then Earth is far more like the Goa'uld then the Ancients.
The Ancients were on the top because they had the knowledge to invent all of their advanced technologies.
Earth on the other hand is on the top because it makes use of scavenged Goa'uld and Ancient tech and hand outs from the Asgard.

Agreed. Most of what we have has been scavenged, taken or been found. Except for what the Asgard gave us, what have we really made ourselves?

The man is former black ops - this is what he does. Hell, on his first ever mission he was going to commit genocide by detonating a nuclear device on Abydos.

But to give him the benefit of the doubt there, he was just coming off having to see his son kill himself, so was somewhat suicidal.
AND In Children of the gods, he was the one harping on Gen hammond who was going to do the same (send a nuke through)..

Their actions over an extended period induced such paranoia in HWC that Earth was basically goaded into the action on Langara. While the Lucian Alliance did not succeed in getting to destiny or cutting Earth's naquadah supplies, they did succeed in severely damaging the diplomatic relationship between Earth and Langara. Doing this on a large scale effectively isolates Earth, eliminating the friends they could normally turn to in a crisis

Looking at this, it makes me think, maybe that WAS the LAs plans all along. make it look like they are making a play for the Langarans and we step in heavy handed as always, and mess it up.

Todd repeatedly screwed us over. Yawned when McKay asked for help to save his sister.

But he still helped.. Many a time.

Talking of the SGA ep Millers Crossing didn't Shep convice a man to kill himself? Not exactly morally white is it?

Too true. This was a man who just lost his daughter and was already willing to go to jail for his actions..

[Kaiphantom]

Not at all - I'm trying to suggest that Earth hasn't been squeeky clean. However, the situation is different now. As OTHER users have pointed out, Earth is now king of the playground when it comes to galactic affairs, it CAN do what it wants with limited consequences.

You might have missed it in my earlier posts, but I already agreed that it was something a nation of our own reality would do. The disagreement, is that it wasn't something that our heroes in the Stargate reality would do. That's the big disconnect here. So you might want to stop trying to say that I'm arguing against realism, when the real argument here is whether it is realistic for the SG universe. It's not.

Take a look at the thread title again.

I agree with FOB.

Lets look at it from O'Neills point of view, the Langarens were in comunication with the LA probably working with them and we can get to Destiny with Zero risk to the planet. I would understand if we came off in a good light but we didn't, the entire point of the ep was make us look morally questionable. I would have no problem believeing SG-1 or Shep do the same thing.

You may want to go back over the thread and read my posts, because I already pointed out that this wasn't a concern. What did the Langarans do at the end? They disconnected the gate from the core. What was stopping them from doing it earlier as a precaution, or Earth for suggesting it?

Remember, the time frame quoted was two months; that's it. That's all they needed to do, to remove the threat of the LA forcibly using the gate the dial Destiny. Hell, we could probably supply a ship to look over them for a couple of months, or at least an observer or two to toss off a warning if the LA invade.

In short, there was no need for this "raid" at all. Destiny is in absolutely NO danger.

Zero.

Zilch.

Zip.

The show itself presented these as facts, so I'm only going off what they are saying. You might want to watch the season 1 episode of SG-1 entitled "Enigma" to acquaint yourself with how O'Neill used to be. Another good episode "Shades of Grey." I particularly like O'Neill's quote near the end.

"We don't need their stuff, Mayborne. We do need them."

Apparently, things have switched. We need the Langaran's stuff; we don't need them. We might want to bring Mayborne out of prison and tell him he was right after all with his methods. We're Earth, and the galaxy is our *****. We take what we want. At least, from people less advanced than us.

Not if the LA has the forsight to put their people in spacesuits. In fact if they are in spacesuits with the magic door openers the tactical situation is much much worse for Destiny if they've vacumed the gateroom. The LA troops can open the doors and expand the vacumn compartment by compartment forcing the Earth troops to represurize and possibly losing Earth personel in the process.

I've already addressed the spacesuits question in previous posts. You may want to deal with those points before you bring it back up. To be helpful, I'll restate the counters:

#1. Does the LA even know about the countermeasures such to plan ahead and bring suits? Do they even have any suits? They tend to be scavengers, not builders.

#2. Recall again how people exit the gate, and tell me honestly if you feel a spacesuit could survive being torn open upon entry.

#3. If we can remove the atmosphere, odds are we can also remove the artificial gravity in the gateroom, thus making #2 all the more deadly.

#4. A number of other precautions can be taken, such as spikes at 45 degree angles, or remote-controlled guns or flashbangs.

#5. The point that makes all others moot, and what they did at the end of the show: disconnect the gate from the core and wait two months for the Langaran scientists to study the data.

Problem solved. End of story.

[P-90_177]

Spoiler:

You might have missed it in my earlier posts, but I already agreed that it was something a nation of our own reality would do. The disagreement, is that it wasn't something that our heroes in the Stargate reality would do. That's the big disconnect here. So you might want to stop trying to say that I'm arguing against realism, when the real argument here is whether it is realistic for the SG universe. It's not.

Take a look at the thread title again.



You may want to go back over the thread and read my posts, because I already pointed out that this wasn't a concern. What did the Langarans do at the end? They disconnected the gate from the core. What was stopping them from doing it earlier as a precaution, or Earth for suggesting it?

Remember, the time frame quoted was two months; that's it. That's all they needed to do, to remove the threat of the LA forcibly using the gate the dial Destiny. Hell, we could probably supply a ship to look over them for a couple of months, or at least an observer or two to toss off a warning if the LA invade.

In short, there was no need for this "raid" at all. Destiny is in absolutely NO danger.

Zero.

Zilch.

Zip.

The show itself presented these as facts, so I'm only going off what they are saying. You might want to watch the season 1 episode of SG-1 entitled "Enigma" to acquaint yourself with how O'Neill used to be. Another good episode "Shades of Grey." I particularly like O'Neill's quote near the end.

"We don't need their stuff, Mayborne. We do need them."

Apparently, things have switched. We need the Langaran's stuff; we don't need them. We might want to bring Mayborne out of prison and tell him he was right after all with his methods. We're Earth, and the galaxy is our *****. We take what we want. At least, from people less advanced than us.



I've already addressed the spacesuits question in previous posts. You may want to deal with those points before you bring it back up. To be helpful, I'll restate the counters:

#1. Does the LA even know about the countermeasures such to plan ahead and bring suits? Do they even have any suits? They tend to be scavengers, not builders.

#2. Recall again how people exit the gate, and tell me honestly if you feel a spacesuit could survive being torn open upon entry.

#3. If we can remove the atmosphere, odds are we can also remove the artificial gravity in the gateroom, thus making #2 all the more deadly.

#4. A number of other precautions can be taken, such as spikes at 45 degree angles, or remote-controlled guns or flashbangs.

#5. The point that makes all others moot, and what they did at the end of the show: disconnect the gate from the core and wait two months for the Langaran scientists to study the data.

Problem solved. End of story.

The arguement that it isn't like our Heroes to act on such a plan is true to an extent. After all Woolsey and McKay showed an unwillingness to invade langara or take the facility by force.

However...There is the matter of the attack on Homeworld Security to consider.
This having been quite possibly the most successful attack on earth by any of Earths Enemies. A base that they felt was secure was hit, and hit hard.
This must have had an effect on the mentality of everyone in the higher chain of command.
O'Neill for his part has proven many times that when his back is against the wall he's very willing to take drastic action. So as head of Homeworld Command I can believe that he would sanction (albeit grudgingly) such an operation.
Most definately Telford and Young are the sort to like that kind of a plan.
Consider the situation Earth must be in right now.......The Lucian Alliance is a reletively unified military force with what have proven to be highly trained soldiers and command officers in their ranks. They no doubt have supperior manpower and supperior number of vessels at their disposal. And while they may not be able to hit earth directly due to the ancients weapon platform and atlantis, they have proven that they can hit us.

So....take O'Neill, sitting in his office. He's being told by Telford, Young and no doubt a number of other advisors that for whatever reason the Lucian Alliance wants Destiny bad. And that there is a high possibility that the Langaran government who is the only current known way of getting to Destiny could also be dealing with the Alliance. You can't attack Langara directly....but nor can you stand by and watch while the Alliance potentially waltzs in and takes the planet by force.

If there was a spy on Langara it would have learned very quickly if the langaran government was dealing with Earth or not and if they seemed to be serriously considering Earths offer the Alliance would have acted. The Two Month Time frame therefore means nothing. And when you're defending Earth it is unwise to move your defences away from key posistions in case the enemy attacks during a moment of weakness. Earth afterall still has limited ships. Powerful. But limited. And when you're concerned that the enemy may have infiltrated your bases (like Telford) you don't trust just one line of defence.

What has this got to do with Destiny I hear people ask? Nothing. But that is the reason why you can't commit massive resources to defending Langara and also the reason why it would not be wise to wait. You don't wait for the enemy to make the first move. And for all Earth knows, the Lucian Alliance have bigger plans in mind for Destiny. It's not something you want them to get their hands on. And likewise the knowledge on board the ship could offer a great advantage.

Two months is a long time. Alot can happen in two months. And plus what happens if they get the proof and hand it straight over to the Alliance for them to lose...then everyone lost.

The plan they eventually came up with was admitedly a very risky one but when you're back is against the wall you take risks. A risk that bot Telford and Young felt was worth taking and who can blame them? It also has the advantage of not giving away McKays proof to anyone (which at the end of the day was the most important thing here).

It's hard to say what their long term plan was to be honest. I doubt the Langarans would have allowed them access to the Stargate even when they proved the proof worked but at the end of the day that is sometimes a military mentality.






I think I rambled there a bit but the gist of what I wanted to say is in their somewhere.



Also what you said about spacesuits....................................who's to say Lucian Alliance Space Suits aren't alot tougher than out own?

[Flyboy]

You might have missed it in my earlier posts, but I already agreed that it was something a nation of our own reality would do. The disagreement, is that it wasn't something that our heroes in the Stargate reality would do. That's the big disconnect here. So you might want to stop trying to say that I'm arguing against realism, when the real argument here is whether it is realistic for the SG universe. It's not.

Ok, fine. I would still argue that in the wake of the attacks on the Pentagon by the LA, HWC would be a lot more willing to be a bit more under handed. Furthermore in terms of realism for Stargate, once again, let's not forget that people and times have changed. You say it's unrealistic, what I think you mean, if you'll allow me, is out of character - which would be true if we saw the good old SG1 team doing this. But it's NOT SG1. What we saw a lot during 'SG1's run was Hammond and his flag ship team often standing against higher up or same level attempts to do immoral/amoral things... that team doesn't exist in the same way any more, and even if it did, they're not the centre of offworld operations any more. Its expanded. Atlantis too, was, for the most part, run by an idealistic diplomat. The only person who's STILL in the decision making process for such affairs from the days of old is O'Neill, and frankly, I CAN see him doing such things...

[D Toccs]

The only person who's STILL in the decision making process for such affairs from the days of old is O'Neill,

I would say that Landry would still be heavily involved the decision making process. He's was still head of Stargate Command last we heard, and he was heading up a task force in Washington.

But that doesn't take anything away from your point, which I agree with.

[blackluster]

Ok, fine. I would still argue that in the wake of the attacks on the Pentagon by the LA, HWC would be a lot more willing to be a bit more under handed.

I think this is an important point, realizing that the events in Seizure didn't happen in a vacuum. After an attempted nuclear attack on Washington, did anyone reasonably expect even Jack to take anything other than a hard line attitude toward anything that the Lucian Alliance was up to? Bear in mind as well that had it not been for Destiny and Varro, we'd be talking about the destruction of Washington and Homeworld Command.

[Gatefan1976]

The "problem" comes down to a disconnect between the 2 "realities". In SG1/SGA you have evil "MUHAAHAAHAA" plans involving sending naquadah-laced meteors or ZPM enhanced Wraith motherships and other such convoluted "plans" to destroy Earth.
In SGU, it's more "just get rid of them" style tactics.

Both FOB and Kai have valid points, but you (they) are trying to reconcile two very different aproaches. In SG1, the LA were no better than money grubbing thieves, but in SGU they are a cogent organization with goals far beyond selling addictive "space corn", They want to be a "power" in the galaxy.

[Kaiphantom]

You say it's unrealistic, what I think you mean, if you'll allow me, is out of character - which would be true if we saw the good old SG1 team doing this. But it's NOT SG1.

It's still Jack O'Neill. Watch Enigma and Shades of Grey again, and tell me if that Jack O'Neill would do what the SGU one apparently decided.

And it still destroys Woolsey's character as well, who has undergone considerable character growth. This episode undoes all that. He point blank said they'd have nothing to do with it, showing us the Woolsey we know, standing up for morals and the right thing... only to do a 180 a few scenes later. Character growth? Why have that when you can have character regression and destruction?

I think this is an important point, realizing that the events in Seizure didn't happen in a vacuum. After an attempted nuclear attack on Washington, did anyone reasonably expect even Jack to take anything other than a hard line attitude toward anything that the Lucian Alliance was up to? Bear in mind as well that had it not been for Destiny and Varro, we'd be talking about the destruction of Washington and Homeworld Command.

You bring up an interesting point which was brought up before, but it is important to note a few other points in relation to this:

#1. The bomb didn't go off. Had it done so, I might have been a bit more convinced, but only a bit, because...

#2. The Langaran situation is irrelevant compared to Earth. Langara leads to Destiny, and whether we control Destiny, or the LA do, is ultimately irrelevant compared to the safety and security of Earth. Had it been a possibility that the LA could have used Langara somehow to attack Earth badly, then I might have seen the actions as somewhat justified. Because ultimately...

#3. None of our lives are at risk(both Destiny and Earth), and thus there is no reason to panic and take these drastic actions. Not when disconnecting the gate from the core and moving it elsewhere for at least two months solves the problem. The LA would not only have to invade, but move the gate back and hook it back up to the core. That's quite a tall order to do, and would take considerable time. Time that we'd have to mount a counterattack alongside the Langarans.

Seriously, the answer to every concern here, is what the show ultimately did: disconnect the gate (not sure if it was moved as well, but would have been a great extra precaution). There was no reason for such a drastic action.