So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done

[Cold Fuzz]

I like the McKay character most of the time but he is arrogant in his abilities, and I don't really think his time on Atlantis has diminished that arrogance much. He has a tract record of destruction in the Pegasus galaxy.

Oh I agree about McKay's arrogance factor. I personally think there was risk involved with his solution. Homeworld Command I'm sure went over his specs with Carter and any other scientists they could gather to confirm his findings. Homeworld Command I'm sure took him at his word because it was politically expedient at the time--meaning that his solution was simply a means for them to make a bold move into Langara.

I still say so what? (In nice tones of course. ) What does Destiny have to do with the security of Earth? Nothing as far as I'm concerned. Dialing Destiny has absolutely nothing to do with the security of Earth or combating the LA threat in the Milky Way. I'm totally baffled as to how those two things are even remotely connected.

Screwing over an ally though does hurt ourselves in combating the LA...in the Milky Way. Their planet has naquadria which Earth highly covets.

If Homeworld had sent a contingent of military to occupy Langara because say it had actually become a base of operations for the LA, I'd have no problem with that. I don't even have any problem with the espionage of using the stones like they did. My problem lies solely with them hijacking the gate and attempting to dial Destiny with the very real possibility of killing millions.

Personally, I think any benefit to the Destiny crew in this entire situation is purely incidental. Let me clarify this: the whole point of assembling SG teams and sending them to Langara was less having to do with helping the Destiny crew than it was to make sure that the planet wasn't being used as an operations base for the Lucian Alliance. If Langara wasn't being used as a base, then the mission was a preemptive means to make sure it would stay an ally. If Langara had already turned to the Alliance then our presence there would be to get rid of them. Helping the Destiny crew was icing on the cake.

This was a case of Homeworld Command having intelligence that the Alliance had already set up shop at Langara. This intel, of course, was from Telford. The intel, as we all know, was absolutely wrong. God knows that the US military has made horrendous mistakes based on faulty intel before. I mean, I've met Marine staff sergeants who've had nothing nice to say about the intelligence community because they were constantly wondering whether or not they were going to walk into a Taliban ambush in Afghanistan despite the fact that the intel they were getting said they were supposed to be in a relatively safe area.

I think Telford saw this situation at Langara as a means to help the Destiny crew and took the risk. But the picture Homeworld Command is concerned about is the Alliance using the planets of our allies as staging areas. Given how successfully the Alliance has managed to stage its attacks against Earth and the Destiny crew, I think the top brass was looking for a way to decisively strike back and getting on Langara was, to them, the most immediate way to do that.

Precisely. We HAVE become the gou'ald in the position of top dawg/bully.

I don't agree there at all. I think it's more accurate to say Earth is becoming like the Ancients. The Ancients were NOT squeaky clean or completely moral themselves. They made mistakes like any other powerful civilization. And so did the Asgard. Neither the Asgard nor the Ancients were in the habit of dominating lesser civilizations (and neither is Homeworld Command) but every so often they did act on the principle of the ends justifying the means (and so it Homeworld Command). The Vanir in the Pegasus Galaxy certainly did by experimenting on humans. The Asgard needed us to do their thinking for them. And the Ancients... their list of problems is huge, not the least of which was engineering sentient replicators to be used as cannon fodder against the Wraith, and them exterminating them when their creations didn't behave as they wanted to.

The Ancients, the Asgard, and even the Nox weren't perfect. Now that humans have become as powerful as them, they're making the same kind of mistakes too. That's realism there.

[D Toccs]

I don't agree there at all. I think it's more accurate to say Earth is becoming like the Ancients.

I disagree. If comparisons are to be made, then Earth is far more like the Goa'uld then the Ancients.
The Ancients were on the top because they had the knowledge to invent all of their advanced technologies.
Earth on the other hand is on the top because it makes use of scavenged Goa'uld and Ancient tech and hand outs from the Asgard.

[Nth Chevron]

I saw it more as desperation.

Fearing the LA were gaining ground over them on Langara, they went ahead to get supplies their incase it came to another LA invasion of Destiny. Obviously we found out that the Langaran's were top peeps and we feel like idiots and our heroic effort to get *something* to Destiny seems less than it was conceived.

Very disgusted with no mention of Jonas

Also, i find it funy people say they "most likely ran Mckays theory past Earths best and brightest" - Mckay is one of THE best and brightest on Earth, all they can run it past is Carter/Zalenka/Lee/Rush.

N.C

[Kaiphantom]

This is going to come off as harsh but if it is pure escapism you want without any relevance to the real world or moral ambiguity why not watch "My Little Pony" instead of SG:U? It's escapist, it's morally simplistic, it should work for you, right?

Don't be disingenuous; you can be better than that. You know very well that the argument you're using is bad on so many levels. Nowhere did I say that Stargate was morally simplistic, nor that I was looking for that.

I shouldn't have to explain this, but escapism means going into a fantasy world that doesn't exist in real life. There is no stargate in our world, and if SG was anything like real life, it's existence would have been spilled a long, long time ago. Thus, whether you want to admit it or not, watching Stargate, any Stargate series, is escapism. Yes, there can be moral lessons there; part of sci-fi's lure is that it can use fantasy worlds and technology to address social issues. Hell, I'm probably one of the few here who remembers some of those old Star Trek episodes, one of my favorites being the episode where two aliens with half-white, half-black faces were trying to kill each other. And one felt he was superior because the right side of his face was white and the left side was black, while the other guy had his right side black and his left side white.

You get a cookie if you can remember it and know what that situation represented.

But Stargate has always had our heroes strive to be the good guys. That's why the real Air Force was willing to support SG-1, because it portrayed them in a good light, as good guys.

All that went out the window with this episode. Now we know that we are no better than the Goa'uld. That's not the stargate I watched over the years. Despite their rough edges, our heroes genuinely tried to do the right thing, and we didn't screw over and use our friends and allies. Sure, the upper brass might have had other ideas at times, but the main characters acted differently because they knew what was happening was wrong. Remember the first appearance of the Tollans? Remember how SG-1 acted?

That's the Stargate I remember. And I'm someone who gave SGU a chance. I didn't care about the tone shift so much, and I even liked the first few episodes. I've had issues with a few episodes here and there, and also liked a few more episodes here and there... but this is the deal breaker for me.

I agree this seemed to be a poor idea from the start. That said I think it was the least bad option. The big mistake was not investigating the LA connection before proceeding with the 9th chevron dialing test. The key HWC's desision is their belief that the Langarans went over to the LA. What I cannot understand is why the Langarans, if they are Earth Allies, did not tell Earth about the LA attempts to bring them into the LA fold. That would have explained the communications with the LA and likely headed off this operation before it began.

No. The least bad option was to wait two months so that the Langarans could go over the data. Request that the Langarans disconnect their gate from the core, so the LA would have a harder time taking advantage of it. Park a ship in orbit for protection from the LA (if the Langarans would like that).

And then wait.

There ain't no way in hell the LA will ever make a surprise attack on Destiny again this way, at least not from Langara. And we've already established that the people on Destiny have a nearly fool-proof method for dealing with incursions.

As for "realistic"? Sure, it is possible... in our world. But this is the Stargate world, where our heroes have always tried to be heroes. I even went so far as to give a pass to the people on Destiny, given their situation and the fact that they were new characters. But people like O'Neill and Woolsy (the latter of whom just got done saying how they'd have no part of it)?

No, sorry, not buying it. It's not realistic for our Stargate Heroes. It's character destruction.

[Cold Fuzz]

I disagree. If comparisons are to be made, then Earth is far more like the Goa'uld then the Ancients.
The Ancients were on the top because they had the knowledge to invent all of their advanced technologies.
Earth on the other hand is on the top because it makes use of scavenged Goa'uld and Ancient tech and hand outs from the Asgard.

I said that Earth was becoming like the Ancients. They're definitely not nearly at that level of development. But as far as protecting less-developed civilizations like the ones formerly in the Asgard protected planets treaty, Earth is now in the position of the Asgard (or the Ancients) in that they now have the burden of protecting those planets.

[Flyboy]

As for "realistic"? Sure, it is possible... in our world. But this is the Stargate world, where our heroes have always tried to be heroes. I even went so far as to give a pass to the people on Destiny, given their situation and the fact that they were new characters. But people like O'Neill and Woolsy (the latter of whom just got done saying how they'd have no part of it)?

No, sorry, not buying it. It's not realistic for our Stargate Heroes. It's character destruction.

I disagree - maybe for SG-1 as a team, but the Atlantis team did some nasty things, it was just never highlighted properly. SG-1 themselves were a strong bunch, but there's ALWAYS been a darker undertone within the institutions that our 'heroes' belong to.

[Ancient Scientist1]

I said that Earth was becoming like the Ancients. They're definitely not nearly at that level of development. But as far as protecting less-developed civilizations like the ones formerly in the Asgard protected planets treaty, Earth is now in the position of the Asgard (or the Ancients) in that they now have the burden of protecting those planets.

What about the planets in the Pegasus galaxy? I know it's not really related to what's going on in the Milky Way but still...

Yeah, problems in the Pegasus galaxy is not really Earth's problem; however, when the Asgard were still around, they had problems of their own in their own galaxy. So, I think technically, Earth is not really in the position of the Asgard.

I'm not entirely sure if Earth is becoming like the Ancients. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't really remember when the Ancients (when they weren't ascended yet) helped or protected other civilizations.

[Kaiphantom]

I disagree - maybe for SG-1 as a team, but the Atlantis team did some nasty things, it was just never highlighted properly. SG-1 themselves were a strong bunch, but there's ALWAYS been a darker undertone within the institutions that our 'heroes' belong to.

Don't want to get into this too much, since this isn't an SGA thread and I want to remain on topic, but.... The only possible thing that argument could apply to, would be the whole turning-wraith-into-humans thing. And thus, I'd argue it doesn't apply, since the wraith were enemies. The only other possibility is the Horizon attack on the Asurans, but that was from above and our heroes had no say.

If you have something else in mind, feel free to present it.

Hell, if they were darker in nature, they would have taken that ZPM from those boys, but they didn't. Not even when threatened with the wraith attack at the end of season 1!

[Cold Fuzz]

What about the planets in the Pegasus galaxy? I know it's not really related to what's going on in the Milky Way but still...

Even though the Pegasus Galaxy is not Homeworld Command's native galaxy, they still wanted to make some kind of effort to protect them though it did fizzle out by season 5 of Atlantis.

Yeah, problems in the Pegasus galaxy is not really Earth's problem; however, when the Asgard were still around, they had problems of their own in their own galaxy. So, I think technically, Earth is not really in the position of the Asgard.

The problems in the Milky Way galaxy were not the problem of the Asgard but they chose to protect the planets here anyway. The planets in Pegasus were not Earth's problem but we still made an effort to protect those planets anyway. In both situations, you have two major powers deciding to protect the lesser civilizations of a neighboring galaxy. So yes, Earth is most definitely in the position of the Asgard.

I'm not entirely sure if Earth is becoming like the Ancients. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't really remember when the Ancients (when they weren't ascended yet) helped or protected other civilizations.

IIRC, the Ancients were protecting the less advanced civilizations of in Pegasus in their war with the Wraith. After Ancients decided to go the route of ascension, they ceased to interfere (for the most part) in the affairs of the lesser-developed civilizations.

[Ancient Scientist1]

The problems in the Milky Way galaxy were not the problem of the Asgard but they chose to protect the planets here anyway. The planets in Pegasus were not Earth's problem but we still made an effort to protect those planets anyway. In both situations, you have two major powers deciding to protect the lesser civilizations of a neighboring galaxy. So yes, Earth is most definitely in the position of the Asgard.

I agree, Earth made an effort to protect the planets in the Pegasus but not any more. (And that really bugs me but that's for a different thread...) So I don't think they are in the position of the Asgard at least not any more.

But if Earth really wanted to protect the planets in the galaxy, they wouldn't have pulled off the stunt they did in the episode even though apparently there weren't any risks.

[spaceship]

Realistic for....??

The SGC estabished (cannon) for the last 15 years? Realistic for your view of humanity? Realistic for dumb strategic planning? I think for whatever reason some people have decided realistic = dark side of humanity. There are decent, even heroic people in the world. They are plenty realistic too.

Realistic because it was realistic. You see this sort of thing going on even today. The US bombing of Libya for instance. Very dumb for a country that has economic problems and is already involved in two other wars.

In fact I'd say the whole operation on Langara was the best thing in this episode. I especially liked how it started out. The whole trick with the stones was very smooth. Now if only they had finished as well as they started

[Cold Fuzz]

I agree, Earth made an effort to protect the planets in the Pegasus but not any more. (And that really bugs me but that's for a different thread...) So I don't think they are in the position of the Asgard at least not any more.

But if Earth really wanted to protect the planets in the galaxy, they wouldn't have pulled off the stunt they did in the episode even though apparently there weren't any risks.

Let me clarify something here. When I say "in the position of the Asgard" what I mean is that Earth is a technologically advanced civilization that is a major galactic power protecting less technologically advanced civilizations. Whether they're providing that protection here or in Pegasus is frankly irrelevant. Earth is doing what that Asgard were doing when they were around. When Thor handed over the Asgard core and all of their knowledge, they essentially handed their keys to us and said, "OK kids, it's time you grew up do the driving now." Earth is in the position of the Asgard. They are the dominant galactic power in the Milky Way, and protected all the lesser civilizations in the Milky from threats like the Ori and to a lesser extent, the Wraith, the remnants of the System Lords, and now the Lucian Alliance.

You are correct that the "stunt" they pulled off wasn't an effective means of protection. However, Woolsey asked "So we're protecting them from themselves?" And Telford and Young agreed that's what they were doing. And of course, they all had pie in their faces when it was all over.

Realistic because it was realistic. You see this sort of thing going on even today.

This. Exactly. Hence, realism.

[The_Asgard_live]

Realistic because it was realistic. You see this sort of thing going on even today. The US bombing of Libya for instance. Very dumb for a country that has economic problems and is already involved in two other wars.

The bombing of Libya is real. The U.S. and a lot of the world are having economic problems. We are in a couple wars. All those things are real.

Not sure how that relates, how it negates 15 years of SGC backstory, or how it makes the mission goal of "see we told you so, we didn't kill all your people, now you can trust us" in this episode any less ridiculous.

[Ancient Scientist1]

Let me clarify something here. When I say "in the position of the Asgard" what I mean is that Earth is a technologically advanced civilization that is a major galactic power protecting less technologically advanced civilizations. Whether they're providing that protection here or in Pegasus is frankly irrelevant. Earth is doing what that Asgard were doing when they were around. When Thor handed over the Asgard core and all of their knowledge, they essentially handed their keys to us and said, "OK kids, it's time you grew up do the driving now." Earth is in the position of the Asgard. They are the dominant galactic power in the Milky Way, and protected all the lesser civilizations in the Milky from threats like the Ori and to a lesser extent, the Wraith, the remnants of the System Lords, and now the Lucian Alliance.

I see your point now. And I have to say that I agree. I guess it's my way of trying to hold on to the Pegasus Galaxy.
Poor Pegasus people...

But if anything Earth should learn from the mistakes that other races have done in the past. But I guess the saying "Mankind doesn't learn from history" is true. (At least I think how the saying goes.)

[Cold Fuzz]

I see your point now. And I have to say that I agree. I guess it's my way of trying to hold on to the Pegasus Galaxy.
Poor Pegasus people...

But if anything Earth should learn from the mistakes that other races have done in the past. But I guess the saying "Mankind doesn't learn from history" is true. (At least I think how the saying goes.)

If there's an Atlantis movie, there might still be a way to address the Wraith problem there though it'd probably involve the extinction of the Wraith as a species. I believe the exact saying you're looking for is Santaya: "Those who fail from history are doomed to repeat it."

I see the debacle with Langara as a realistic mistake on the path to becoming better protectors. The Ancients, the Nox, and the Asgard made some serious mistakes but still tried their best to do good. Humanity is still learning that in the Stargate story line. Technological superiority doesn't equate to moral superiority. This is a lesson the Ancients themselves failed to learn time and time again. But I think humanity may be able to succeed morally where the Ancients failed--one day. But not today.