So that was pretty much the most underhanded thing we've ever done

[Flyboy]

Kai,



This is going to come off as harsh but if it is pure escapism you want without any relevance to the real world or moral ambiguity why not watch "My Little Pony" instead of SG:U? It's escapist, it's morally simplistic, it should work for you, right?

I agree this seemed to be a poor idea from the start. The key HWC's desision is their belief that the Langarans went over to the LA. What I cannot understand is why the Langarans, if they are Earth Allies, did not tell Earth about the LA attempts to bring them into the LA fold. That would have explained the communications with the LA and likely headed off this operation before it began.

Bravo!

I say again!

Bravo!!!

Sci-Fi is not, imo, about escapism, unless you're talking about Bucky O'Hare... it's ENTIRELY about the world we live in. The stories presented within sci-fi are commentaries on our own existence. Sci-Fi is a reflection of us and our society, our issues, our failings, our dysfunctions. Battlestar Galactica was about the War on Terror, SG-1 was about man's slavery to religion. Sci-Fi is, like it or not, nowhere near escapism.

[D Toccs]

Bravo!Sci-Fi is not, imo, about escapism, unless you're talking about Bucky O'Hare... it's ENTIRELY about the world we live in. The stories presented within sci-fi are commentaries on our own existence. Sci-Fi is a reflection of us and our society, our issues, our failings, our dysfunctions. Battlestar Galactica was about the War on Terror, SG-1 was about man's slavery to religion. Sci-Fi is, like it or not, nowhere near escapism.

Social commentary is an integral part of any genre and cannot be escaped. But to say that sci-fi has nothing to do with escapism is just absurd.

[Flyboy]

Social commentary is an integral part of any genre and cannot be escaped. But to say that sci-fi has nothing to do with escapism is just absurd.

People might try and watch Sci-Fi for escapism, but that is NOT what it is about. Social commentary is far more integral to sci-fi that any other genre.

[The_Asgard_live]

Kai,

This is going to come off as harsh but if it is pure escapism you want without any relevance to the real world or moral ambiguity why not watch "My Little Pony" instead of SG:U? It's escapist, it's morally simplistic, it should work for you, right?

I am sure Kai will have his/her own thoughts, but I'd like a try. This episode didn't display something that was morally ambiguous, it was immoral period. As some else pointed out, the Gao'uld take over other people's bodies for fun and profit, not the SGC.

I agree this seemed to be a poor idea from the start. That said I think it was the least bad option. The big mistake was not investigating the LA connection before proceeding with the 9th chevron dialing test. The key HWC's desision is their belief that the Langarans went over to the LA. What I cannot understand is why the Langarans, if they are Earth Allies, did not tell Earth about the LA attempts to bring them into the LA fold. That would have explained the communications with the LA and likely headed off this operation before it began.

You think impersonating allies' leaders, taking over their facilities, putting your soldiers on the ground, all to run an experiment that while you are confident will succeed has twice previously resulted in catastrophic planet failure is the least bad option? I suggest more "My Little Pony" and less morally ambiguous roughage in your TV diet.

Here are a couple ideas.

The Langarans are a sovereign planet and free to align or not align with whomever they chose. That has pretty much been the plot of the last 15 years of stargate. Freedom from dominance and oppression, free will.

Simply having a stargate capable of dialing Destiny puts their planet at risk. Risk from, again, catastrophic planet failure, risk from the LA, and apparently, risk from Earth. The first least bad option is... disconnect their gate. Ask them to do it while waiting. If they refuse and Earth simply can't wait (why can't they again?), beaming out their gate would be preferable to an armed coup.

Next in line would be waiting for confirmation your allies aren't your allies and then surgically taking out their facilities. That is, if you somehow believe the 80 lives on Destiny are more important than the lives of the people in the facility you take out.

And, if successful, you will have saved Destiny's crew only from uncertain death from the most recent LA attack. But not the uncertain death from the Smurfs, the decaying space ship, or whatever the heck next weeks episode is about...

How about this, let the LA attack. Use the stones to inhabit Varro (ask that he do this to prove his loyalty) and another's body and greet the incoming LA. Tell them you Varro are now in charge, Kiva was killed. Destiny is secured. Please bring supplies, lead them into a trap. Take the supplies, airlock the bad guys.

[Flyboy]

I am sure Kai will have his/her own thoughts, but I'd like a try. This episode didn't display something that was morally ambiguous, it was immoral period. As some else pointed out, the Gao'uld take over other people's bodies for fun and profit, not the SGC.

You think impersonating allies' leaders, taking over their facilities, putting your soldiers on the ground, all to run an experiment that while you are confident will succeed has twice previously resulted in catastrophic planet failure is the least bad option? I suggest more "My Little Pony" and less morally ambiguous roughage in your TV diet.

Here are a couple ideas.

The Langarans are a sovereign planet and free to align or not align with whomever they chose. That has pretty much been the plot of the last 15 years of stargate. Freedom from dominance and oppression, free will.

Simply having a stargate capable of dialing Destiny puts their planet at risk. Risk from, again, catastrophic planet failure, risk from the LA, and apparently, risk from Earth. The first least bad option is... disconnect their gate. Ask them to do it while waiting. If they refuse and Earth simply can't wait (why can't they again?), beaming out their gate would be preferable to an armed coup.

Next in line would be waiting for confirmation your allies aren't your allies and then surgically taking out their facilities. That is, if you somehow believe the 80 lives on Destiny are more important than the lives of the people in the facility you take out.

And, if successful, you will have saved Destiny's crew only from uncertain death from the most recent LA attack. But not the uncertain death from the Smurfs, the decaying space ship, or whatever the heck next weeks episode is about...

How about this, let the LA attack. Use the stones to inhabit Varro (ask that he do this to prove his loyalty) and another's body and greet the incoming LA. Tell them you Varro are no in charge, Kiva was killed. Destiny is secured. Please bring supplies, lead them into a trap. Take the supplies, airlock the bad guys.

No one's suggesting that it wasn't immoral. But it was realistic.

[The_Asgard_live]

No one's suggesting that it wasn't immoral. But it was realistic.

Realistic for....??

The SGC estabished (cannon) for the last 15 years? Realistic for your view of humanity? Realistic for dumb strategic planning? I think for whatever reason some people have decided realistic = dark side of humanity. There are decent, even heroic people in the world. They are plenty realistic too.

[Flyboy]

Realistic for....??

The SGC estabished (cannon) for the last 15 years? Realistic for your view of humanity? Realistic for dumb strategic planning? I think for whatever reason some people have decided realistic = dark side of humanity. There are decent, even heroic people in the world. They are plenty realistic too.

Yes, the plan was a bad one in terms of everything they were trying to accomplish.

I don't deny that there are good, decent and heroic people in the world. I don't claim it unrealistic when the SGC does good things. However, it's UNREALISTIC to believe that INSTITUTIONS are ALWAYS so good. In the real world, it's much easier for an organisation, such as the CIA to do grey or immoral things for the greater good. Realism is appreciating that there are two sides to humanity and often things don't fit neatly into one of two camps, but somewhere in the middle. Government organisations are capable of doing very good things, very bad things, and things that are seemingly both.

Any scholar of history, international relations or strategy will tell you this.

[D Toccs]

People might try and watch Sci-Fi for escapism, but that is NOT what it is about. Social commentary is far more integral to sci-fi that any other genre.

Sorry dude but you're wrong. Social commentary is an added bonus that is thrown in to various shows, it is never a necessity.

If you watch sci-fi purely for the social commentary, then good for you.
But for most people TV shows are just a form of escapism, maybe with a few moral lessons thrown in for good measure.

[Flyboy]

Sorry dude but you're wrong. Social commentary is an added bonus that is thrown in to various shows, it is never a necessity.

If you watch sci-fi purely for the social commentary, then good for you.
But for most people TV shows are just a form of escapism, maybe with a few moral lessons thrown in for good measure.

I'm sorry but I disagree. Sci-Fi as a genre sprung up pretty much as an avenue for exploring the human condition. It's crucial to its identity.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I don't think taking over those guys bodies was like the goa'uld as their consciousness was not spressesd they only used the body nothing worse than kidnapping which has never been a problem before.

I don't like infringing a states sovereignty but we thought we could get away with it. No different to when Atlantis experimented on wraith prisoners really.

[FoX-1028]

Hammond would never agree with this

[LoneStar1836]

From their perspective, there was no risk to Langara. McKay said there's zero risk and given his rep on Atlantis, I'm certain they took him at his word. I'm sure Carter had a thorough look at his analysis for good measure before it ever got to Eli or anyone on the ship. Earth's best and brightest signed off on McKay's solution so like I said, there was no risk to Langara as far as the top brass in Homeworld Security were concerned.

I like the McKay character most of the time but he is arrogant in his abilities, and I don't really think his time on Atlantis has diminished that arrogance much. He has a tract record of destruction in the Pegasus galaxy.

The likelihood of a pact with the Lucian Alliance pushed the op's urgency to top priority. So, given McKay's technical experience and the people involved, O'Neill and everybody at Homeworld Security took a calculated risk to prevent another Lucian Alliance attack--especially since they just had a freakin' naquadria bomb land on their front doorstep 2 episodes before. They took the calculated risk... and were absolutely wrong. Being incredibly wrong comes with the risk of making life or death decisions, especially when dealing with an organization like the Lucian Alliance that just attacked the seat of the Stargate program on Earth.

I agree that it was wrong. I don't think anyone here has any illusions that what they were doing was right, moral, or squeaky clean. However, Homeworld Security is operating on the whole ends-justify-the-means reasoning. The Lucian Alliance attack with the naquadria bomb, the attack on Destiny at the end of season 1, and the Lucian Alliance's build-up of military assets and research has made them a clear and present danger to Homeworld Security and Earth's allies. O'Neill and others in the top brass are going to resort to whatever means necessary to neutralize the Alliance.

I still say so what? (In nice tones of course. ) What does Destiny have to do with the security of Earth? Nothing as far as I'm concerned. Dialing Destiny has absolutely nothing to do with the security of Earth or combating the LA threat in the Milky Way. I'm totally baffled as to how those two things are even remotely connected.

Screwing over an ally though does hurt ourselves in combating the LA...in the Milky Way. Their planet has naquadria which Earth highly covets.

If Homeworld had sent a contingent of military to occupy Langara because say it had actually become a base of operations for the LA, I'd have no problem with that. I don't even have any problem with the espionage of using the stones like they did. My problem lies solely with them hijacking the gate and attempting to dial Destiny with the very real possibility of killing millions.

[Ancient Scientist1]

Didn't Daniel and Vala take over other people's bodies against their will too? With very nasty (if only temporary) consequences.

But they didn't do it by purpose. They had no idea what the stones were for in the first place. It's not like they wanted to take over their bodies.

In Universe, they did it purposely. They knew exactly what they were doing.

[magictrick]

I thought the idea in itself was pretty genius. Of course it was totally immoral, unethical and wrong. Taking the lives of people of an entire planet into your own hands simply to fulfill your selfish goals is pretty damn low.

Add to that the fact that they were completely wrong about the association between Langara and the Lucian Alliance brought the whole thing to a new low. It was definitely interesting to watch though.

[garhkal]

Took me a couple days to get over the shock of this episode.

This was seriously bad guy stuff. It was not questionably moral. It was immoral. It was wrong. Anytime you take over someone's body against their will? That's wrong enough. That's what a little race called the Goa'uld did.

It was interesting we rallied against the gou'ald cause of doing this, for their own gain, then we use a similar means to do it ourselves..
Maybe we ARE becoming just like the Gou'ald..

Earth now pretty much sets policy in the Milky Way and they're starting to act like it now.

Precisely. We HAVE become the gou'ald in the position of top dawg/bully.

Didn't Daniel and Vala take over other people's bodies against their will too? With very nasty (if only temporary) consequences.

Yes, but that was without us KNOWING what it did.

I think the writers started portraying the characters with this arrogant superiority complex for quite some time now. They can go to any lenghts and never suffer any consquenses to their atrocious actions. But if their so called enemies acted this way we'd be calling them evil monsters

Agreed. We saw it back in season, 3 with Alar. And in several other eps.

Simply having a stargate capable of dialing Destiny puts their planet at risk. Risk from, again, catastrophic planet failure, risk from the LA, and apparently, risk from Earth. The first least bad option is... disconnect their gate. Ask them to do it while waiting. If they refuse and Earth simply can't wait (why can't they again?), beaming out their gate would be preferable to an armed coup.

Heck, why didn't we tell the Langarans "lets beam your gate out, while you review the data. No gate, no need for the LA to come, since they couldn't use your planet to get to Destiny.."

I don't think taking over those guys bodies was like the goa'uld as their consciousness was not spressesd they only used the body nothing worse than kidnapping which has never been a problem before.

How is it different? Their host consiousness was not there, and since we HAVE established that death to one side, will kill the other, we now risk BOTH those 2 bodies we took over as well as the 2 who took them over..